However, on a negative not, I definetly do not agree with, or even understand some of the things said by SALMNDR92. Such as the part about negotiations and how “The only negotiation that the Islamo-Fascits undersand is death, and our God is better than your allah.”

???

Some clarifycation of these little snippits of your post would be nice.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

As I mentioned before, I spent time in that part of the world. They are fanatics over there. This is something that is hard for most “protected” Americans to acknoledge. Most Americans cannot fathom the fact that people are willing to die for a cause instead of talking it out. I have nothing against other religions, but until I see muslim leaders in the US and around the world stand up and speak against the global terror attacks that are committed by muslims, I must say that I am loosing confidence in the muslim religion. As I recall, earlier this year the Israelis willingly gave up the West Bank to the Palestinins, only to have some of thier soldiers kidnapped and killed. You CANNOT NEGOTIATE WITH THESE PEOPLE. THEY ONLY RECOGNIZE DEATH AND DEFEAT. I never meant to have my words twisted into a religious war. When I said “Our God is better than your allah,” I meant to say that is the mindset of the Islamo-fascists. They are not willing to recognized any other God and will kill to keep allah the only god. If we say our God is what we believe, then we will be killed.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

I don’t know if anyone has heard, but since So Damn Insane has recieved the death sentence, the Iraqi government has people coming out of the walls wanting to be the executioner. They all seem to have lost a loved one to So Damn and want to kill him personally. This is saying something about the kind of tyrant he was and how the Iraqi people hate him. This man killed his own countrymen at will and had the rest of them living in fear of him and his henchmen. If for no other reason, just taking a monster like this out of power was good enough reason to go into Iraq.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

SALMNDR92

Thanks for clarifying.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Just been announced that the US has handed Hussein over to Iraqi authorities for execution today or tomorrow.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6217725.stm

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Sits around fire & drums while singing >
…continues softly to drum….

Like or Dislike: 0  0

He’s already gone! No more Finito. I don’t know what time Aussie tim, but I say a report aprox 4hrs ago now.e

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Talk about keyboard gremlins last post!
.
“After Saddam — the unanswered questions
The people of Iraq woke up this morning to the news that Saddam Hussein was executed at dawn local time, about 3 am GMT. His hanging was filmed and we can expect those images to soon be available across the world courtesy of the internet.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/

Like or Dislike: 0  0

to Salmndr92:

I’m confused. I think you are confused also.

You say “bush has lost my support”. But why, if you support the war? Do you just follow the polls as so many of the other sheep in our flock?

You say that it is proven that Saddam Hussein has given safe haven and finacial aid to terrorists.Where is this proof? Is it written in spaghetti noodles that only the chosen meatballs can see?
And that Bush said “we will make no distinction between those that committed these acts and those that harbor them”. The “terrorists” if any, that saddam harbored were not the ones that did 911. He should have said “we will make no distinction between those that committed these acts and people that have oil that we need”.

You say that we had to invade this country because these muslims want to convert or kill all non-muslims. And we will win because our God is better than their Allah. I think God and Allah should have an arm wrestling match and the winner should take on the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

When Ossama said “we value death more than you value life” it was his way of saying the same thing New Hampshire said during rthe revolutionary war. “give me liberty or give me death”. When Americans say it, it sounds so noble.

Here’s the situation as I see it in a nutshell:

The western world became iterested in the middle east when we became addicted to oil.

The western world drew lines to define countries in the middle east.

We set up certain families or tribes (the house of Saud) to become the royalty. Or we set up puppet governments (ex. Shah of Iraq). We gave them stability by backing them up with our military might.

These royal famalies grew rich while the countrymen remained poor.

We would secretly support instability in the region (CIA) to keep the countries backward and less oil dependant for one thing, and to keep the governments dependant on our protection(Iran Iraq war).

We supprted Saddam (and the shaw of Iran) through many attrocities. As long as they played ball with us on the oil thing nothing else mattered. Saddam quit playing ball. He used weopons that we gave on his own people (kinda but different tribe). These people wanted to overthrow and kill him. (Aren’t we over there killing people now because we think they might want to kill us?) We gave him that stuff to kill Iranians with.

The peasants are tired of foreiners being in there country, keeping things stirred up, so that we can have their oil. They just want everyone to go away. The one thing these guys all have in common is that they are Muslim.

We are there for the oil!!

We use religion to make them seem different or crazy or whatever. That is what relgion is for. It’s to motivate people to do things that make absolutly no sense.

There will be no peace in the world until everyone beleives in the one true God, The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Anyone who does not convert will have to be killed.

Eddie Spaghetti

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@ Eddie Spaghetti, Hi Eddie.
I admire your devotion to the FSM, But please don’t kill anybody in his name. Ok?
That is so, not what he wants! He is a peaceful Monster, who only wants people to think.
Not use brute force, or his name to conquer. Put your engery into consuming massive amounts of beer! Make beer! Not war!
Ramen

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Peter Popoff,
You are so right. I was being facicious(?sp). I forgot that the best lesson learned from the FSM is that there are a lot of people that will believe anything they are told.
.
World peace will come when automobiles run on spaghetti sauce.

RAmen

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@Eddie Spaghetti

Hey I think you need to go back and read some more Chomsky books you forgot to mention that it’s all because of Israel.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Johnny Corvette,
I’m glad to see that you have at least heard of Chomsky. That’s more than you can say for most Americans, thanks to the right wing owned operated and controlled media. I wish you had payed closer attention though. He doesn’t think it’s all because of Isreal, only that that is a significant factor. What you might not know is that the brutality that Isreal shows to the Palestinians is rarely broadcast in this country, while any action taken by the Palestinians is given full coverage. There is a very large segment of the Israeli population that activly protests the persecution of the Palestinians. They get no news coverage in the USA. They actually get quite a bit in Isreal. We supprot Israel largely because they are our best foothold in a region that we need to control.
.
The interesting thing about the right wing Christian element of our society is that it survives by giving people a choice. If you don’t like Catholosicm you can be protestant. If you don’t like the first brand that tried, just try another. There’s plenty out there. We can find one that fits you.
.
If you need a reason for us to invade Iraq, we’ve got plenty. I’m sure you can find one that works for you.
.
How about “They have connections to 9/11″
We all know better now, but don’t worry there’s more:
They are fanatics over there. This is all they understand.
Not compassionate enough for you? How about this:
Those poor nice folks are being tortured by an evil dictator.
I’m sure they are much happier being tortured by fine Chritian Americans.
.
How about: They have weapons of mass destruction.
I’ve heard a few explanations for this this. Some say they are all burried in the desert. Some say they were smuggled to Syria. I would think if he had them he would have used them when he was up against the biggest army in the world. What else would he have them for?
.
We found some aluminum tubes. They must be for nuc U lar stuff.
. Turned out to be bullshit.

.
.
.
Did you find one you liked? You should realize that you can’t pick them all because some conflict with others, just like our Christian churches.I’d really like to know which of these works for you.
.
I’m curious. When people say “We have to fight THEM over THERE”, who is “they”? And why is “there” Iraq? Do they really think that ALL muslims want to convert or kill us? That makes it OK to invade any Muslim country regardless of any connection with terrorism. I guess it’s just coincidence that Iraqs oil reserves are estimated to be larger than Saudi Arabia. Afghanistan (remember Afghanistan? That’s where the terrorists were based) has very little oil. We have very few troops there.
.
.
Do you realize that we have lost more Americans in Iraq than we did in the WTC? Two of them were very close to me. I hope that marines brother’s brother is luckier.
.
.
I absolutly support our troops. I know that they beleive they are defending our country. May God and the FSM bless them.
.
eddie spaghetti
Patriotic American

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Gaaaarsh I am convinced. When do I get to make a big paper Mache puppet???

Like or Dislike: 0  0

To eddie spaghetti

You sound like a Michael Moore puppet. I don’t know if you have noticed, but the price of oil has skyrocketed after we went to war. If we were going to war for oil, basic business says when supply increases, price decrease. It didn’t work this way, which should show that we did not go to war for oil. I did say that President Bush has lost my support. I still support the war, but I do not back Bush. I would love to see the President go in no holds barred and use every weapon we have to accomplish the goal.

Have you been to that side of the world? People are not the same all over the world. If you have not been to the Middle East, then you don’t know what things are like and how people are over there. They are not the same peace loving people like you see in the EU and the US.

I guess you don’t listen even to the mainstream media. Even I heard on the news that the US has turned over all oil to the Iraqi people. The US isn’t going to see one cent from Iraqi oil. Not now, not never. I also suggest that you go out and talk to someone who has been over there and has interacted with the “peasents.” The Iraqi people love thier liberation, and love the lack of fear in which we have given them. You don’t understand the situation that the Iraqis were living. They were afraid to say or do anything in fear of being raped, tortured, killed, or having thier family killed, raped, tortured. Let me ask you something. Did you vote this past November? A higher percentage of Iraqis voted in their last election than did Americans. These are the same Iraqis who knowinly risked their lives to vote. These are the same Iraqis who you say want us out of Iraq and don’t appreciate what we have given them. A higher percent

How the hell can you compare Osama quote of terror to one of the most partiotic quotes in American history. Osama is a known terrorist who has openly announced that he has attacked American on more than one occasion. Patrick Henery was a great patriot who helped free the American Colonies from the tyranny of the King of England. If you see any simularities between these two beings (one a human, the other a monster) then I’m ashamed to share the title of American with the likes of you. If you see Osama Bin Laden and Patrick Henry as one in the same, then you are an American Traitor, in my book. Patrick Henry never killed to cause terror.

“. (Aren’t we over there killing people now because we think they might want to kill us?)” No sir, we are over there because they DID kill over 3,000 of us. Keep in mind that we did not do anything against Al-Queda and/or the people of muslim from 1993 (first WTC bombing) to 2001 (last WTC bombing).

I always wondered why people want to hate our government and constantly accuse it of conspiracies. If you hate the US government so much than move. I would rather love my country and give my country and countrymen the benefit of the doubt over other countries. If the US is so bad and the countries of the Middle East are so good, I will pay for your plane ticket to move there. Let me know and I’ll arrange it through any airline of your choice.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@ SALMNDR92
.
Bush… I never voted for him, and in 2000 our side won. Of course, thanks to a bit of questionable activity by some extreme right-wingers, that didn’t matter. America doesn’t stand for many ideals, mostly just freedom. I dislike our current government, but I consider it worthwhile to wait and see if there will be a better one before I move to England, Australia, Italy, or some other (much) less energy-crazy country. As to the war for oil, just how do you explain Halliburton? No-bid government contracts and such… seems awfully questionable that Cheney’s old company would get them without our government getting something in return…
And by the way, you are stereotyping middle-easterners. How would you reply if one of them said something like “You havn’t been over there. trust me they are ALL INSANE and want to kill everyone who doesn’t share their veiws! if we try to bargain with them, they will only make more places like Guantanamo bay!”
And what do you think the (old) English thought about Patrick Henry? I have no support for Osama or Saddam, but considering the current state over there they will likely become more popular!
And how can you talk about keeping up with the news after saying the Iraqis love their new government? if they love it so much, why are so many attacking it?
.
And how can you talk about “the same peace-loving people we have here in the EU and the US” after openly wishing for some sort of government-induced jokulhaups directed at the Middle East?
That is not peace…

Like or Dislike: 0  0

So you are thinking you might move out of the country because:
1) your team didn’t win the election in 2000
2) the US is a “Energy Crazy” country
3) you think maybe Halliburton is giving the government a kickback

You’re just going to wait and see how your team does first.

Well, I hope you find solace driving your moped around your adopted new country looking for work.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

To Gnocci Man

I disapprove the whole Haliburton deal. I am by no means a Republican, and because I’m not I can speak from my own opinions instead of a party line. However, I’m not going to leave my country because of it. I still love America, and always will.

Just because Haliburton was awarded a no bid contract does not mean the war is about oil. It was all over the news when the US captured Saddam that the US will not control any of the Iraqi oil. The US helped keep production going, but safe guarded the money into an account for the new Iraqi Government. As I mentioned eariler, in basic business class, when supply increases, the cost decreases. If we went to war over oil, and we are tapping Iraq of its oil and bringing it here, don’t you think we would be below $2 per gallon? I sure as hell believe it.

I’m not saying everyone in the Middle-East is fanatical and cannot be reasoned with, just the ones who are creating trouble. The Islamo-Fascists are the ones that cannot be talked to and have a peacefull resolve. What’s wrong with Guantomo Bay? We do need more places like it, and whatever means they use to get information from the prisoners should be obtained.

Again, there is no similarities between Patrick Henry and Osama Bin Laden. Patrick Henry was a patriot fighting for freedom. Osama is a criminal fighting to create terror in the world, and also fighting his jihad (holy war).

The mainstream media will never report anything positive from this war. To get the true story on how things are going, you have to talke to someone who has been there. Go out and talke to an army soldier, a Marine, or any other ground component of our military. They will tell you the media is full of b.s. They will tell you how the Iraqi population is very happy for us being there. They will also tell you that all the insurgants are not Iraqis but other nationalities coming to Iraq to kill an American in the name of allah.

Whenever I meet someone in uniform, I thank them for thier service and I ask if they have been to Iraq or Afghanastan. If they have I talk to them about thier experiences. I do have a cousin in the Marines. He is currently on his third tour in Iraq. He volunteered for this tour. Also while we are talking about our military, lets look at enlistments. No branch of our military is having problems meeting thier quotas. The military is also experiencing a high level of re-enlistments. That right there has to say something about how our troops think about what’s going on over there.

I do love peace and hope that one day we will have peace and harmony worldwide. However, until that happens, we most remain vigilant and be willing to step up to the plate when called on. My grandparents had a horrific tragety in their life with 07 December 1941, the day that will live in infamy. Now, in our life, we have our own Day of Infamy. That day was 9/11, and we must step up like our grandparents did 60 years ago and fight tyranny, fascism, and hate. What would have happened if Americans wanted to forgive Japan for bombing Pearl harbor, and forgive Hitler for the Houlocast and his quest for world domination? We would be speaking German today. If we love our way of life, we have to take a stand and defend it. If we don’t, we will all be muslim very shortly. I for one will die for my religious beliefs and will kill the Islamo-Fasicist as he tries to get into my house.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Salmndr,
Relax.
Have some Pasta.
Drink from the beer vocano.
Dance with the sacred strippers.
And if you really want to know what it’s like in a titty bar, ask a guy who just came stumbling out of one.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@SALMNDR92
“The Iraqi people love thier liberation, and love the lack of fear in which we have given them.”
-
This is absolute bullshit!!! Since the invasion of Iraq by US lead forces the civilian death toll has been enormous (even if you believe Bush’s figure of 30,000). The latest figure produced by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health is 655,000 extra deaths in Iraq since 2003 with 601,000 attributable to violence. They estimate that 31% of violent deaths or 186,000 can be directly attributed to coalition military action. This study was published in the Lancet a highly reputable medical journal. It was peer-reviewed by 4 independent experts, which is double the normal number of reviewers, and accepted with few revisions. No other estimate of the death toll in Iraq has been subjected to such scrutiny. Here is the reference if you want to read it yourself:
Title: Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional cluster sample survey
Author(s): Burnham G, Lafta R, Doocy S, Roberts L
Source: LANCET 368 (9545): 1421-1428 OCT 21 2006
-
The number of dead American soldiers is 3,004, which is higher than the death toll of September 11. There are also over 46,000 injured. All those people dead for a war that was based on a lie.
-
“To get the true story on how things are going, you have to talke to someone who has been there. Go out and talke to an army soldier, a Marine, or any other ground component of our military.”
-
Here is what one soldier wrote in a letter to his parents reproduced in the NY Times:
“No one understands why we are here and what our mission is. This war is lost. We aren’t helping these people. We are just dying and getting injured.”
Sgt. Ryan Kahlor.
-
You are full of warmongering, overly nationalistic crap as the last paragraph of your previous post attests. You need to think far more critically about what the goals of coalition’s invasion of Iraq were, whether they achieved them, and were the results worth the number of dead and injured. At the moment it is clear that you really have no idea.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@SALMNDR92
As a spectator from another county who follows along, I don’t intend to say this politely.
No one is interested in reading your mental wanking here.
Please relieve yourself somewhere else! I feel unclean just having read half of it.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Yeah – same for Eddie spaghetti. This is no place for long stupid posts of regurgitated Chomsky drivel. We are easily bored and perhaps a little dim.

So let’s stick to the topic at hand. Worship of the noodly great one and funny comments about Christian nutters. Oh and maybe a smattering of Theist vs. Non- theist philosophy and discussion. But please keep it short and sweet.

And remember kids – it doesn’t matter how many people are killed, maimed or murdered as long as the US isn’t involved in some way.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

To Coleoptera

I seriously doubt that the US is guilty of the mass murder that Saddam has been guilty of. Saddam was also guilty of genocide. There’s something you won’t here from the liberal mainstream media. When someone tries to eliminate a race like Hitler did in WWII and Saddam did with his fellow countrymen of a different religous persuation. Along with the 3,000 American deaths in Iraq, how many brainwashed terrorist did we kill? That’s something else I never heard the liberal media mention. How would have WWII turned out if liberals started crying with our first 3,000 deaths? We would have pulled up tents and left in the middle of our first island campaign.

Yes, of course you will find military personel who are against the war. These are also the same people who sign up for the military to receive benefits such as college tuition, etc. I never said every member of our military would say the same thing, but most do. How else would you explain the high re-enlistment rate? The enlistment rate is high enough to keep a war going for almost 4 years without bringing back the draft. All branches of the military are meeting enlistment quotas.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

To Wench Nikky

As long as people will post anti war statements here, I have the right to post my views.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

SALMNDR92 – “Along with the 3,000 American deaths in Iraq, how many brainwashed terrorist did we kill?”
.
No doubt some of the 12 000 Iraqi civilians killed in 2006 were terrorists. The families of the 1 930 civilians who died last month are probably singing our praises as we speak.
.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6224047.stm
.
Is the 92 bit of your name your date of birth by any chance?

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@SALMNDR92
So how many modern wars besides WWI and WWII actually solved more problems than they caused? with people like Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc. removal is necesary… but shouldn’t there at least be an attempt at a planned, peaceful way? Our government rushed in with almost no plan, and played quite a few dirty tricks. Now look at the situation as it is, not as you wish to think it is.
Why havn’t we tried to stop the genocide in Darfur, Sudan? America is pretty much in our war for revenge. If it was merely Saddam, why did we wait so long to attack? Peace is ALWAYS an option.
And please stop bashing liberals. I am a democrat (obvious by now, I suppose) who has been watching this trend grow for years now, and I can tell you that it REALLY frightens me.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Oh, and whilst I’m on the subject. You sounded pretty stoked about old Saddam doing the hemp fandango in an earlier post.
Does that still stand. Was vengeance, for that’s all it was, worth the deaths of 13 people in a car bombing today. Was the killing of a monster (I have no illusions about Hussein) worth the deaths of innocents?

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@SALMNDR92, first of all, thank you for your service to your country. I am thankful everyday for young men and women like you who give their hearts and souls to defend us. I do not agree with pretty much anything you have said, except for the fact that there are some Iraqis who are also grateful for your service. Even though I do not agree with you on much, I think that you have every right to express yourself.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@Gnocci man
Oh yes the good wars WWI and WWII. When will they bring those good old days back. You may recall that WWII was not about genocide until after allied forces were deep inside Germany discovering gas chambers. Better late then never.

And in Iraq we rushed in completely fooling all the American people and all senators and congressmen but also why did we wait so long? Which is it?

And Darfur – yes why doesn’t the US do something? Maybe we should call someone at the UN? Oh wait Sudan has already rejected one UN Resolution and the US is pushing the reluctant UN to do something. Maybe another resolution!! I guess we will need to go through 12 years of UN ceasefires, resolutions and sanctions before anything gets done. Wait – that was for a country whose leader said he had nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and that he wished he waited another year or so to have fully developed nuclear weapon before invading Kuwait. So maybe we will need 20 years of UN diplomacy first.

But remember – it’s all because of Israel:

http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article17772

Like or Dislike: 0  0

I will stay out of this one. I have argued it to death elsewhere, you can’t change peoples minds on this mornic war in iraq.
It was stupid from the start, as it remains stupid. Saddam wasn’t a threat to America in the beginning, anymore then he is today.
The fact that we have made this country more unsafe, since starting this irag war, falls on deaf ears.
I have my theories on why we are there. I’ll keep them to myself, because this isn’t the topic that I come to the FSM for. But a healthy debate is a healthy debate. So have at it.
.
I will add though, that I too, thank anybody and everybody in the service.
Like Lieutenant Dan from Forrest Gump. A member of my family has fought and died in every war since the American Revolution, it is ingrained in me to honor all who fight for my country.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

I thought you said you were gonna stay out of it?

Like or Dislike: 0  0

hahaha, I am, I just wanted to thank the service people, and I got carried away. Don’t worry, I’m out.
Ramen

Like or Dislike: 0  0

One thing that does worry me. How can we withdraw from such an unstable situation?
.
Our respective Politicos decided, rightly or wrongly, to topple the regime. Nothing can change what has been done. Do we dare leave a demoralised, defenceless nation to fend for itself with Iran smelling blood? A state that has publicly declared it’s desire to wipe Israel off the map? Who are blatantly ignoring UN resolutions? Who will soon, if not already, possess nuclear weapons.
More pertinently, what will Israel do if we don’t act? Remember what they did to the test reactor some years ago? Then what? Both the US and UK have very strong ties with Israel.
.
SALMNDR92 – Please don’t think that I hate the military or the US. Most of my family live in America. I don’t support the Government of the UK, nor that of the USA. I do support the people who have been placed in the firing line.
Oarless Marc (btw I thought you’d regained an oar?) put it very well.
I very nearly joined the Royal Air Force. I’d been accepted (I wanted to fly). I didn’t think I could handle the discipline though and thought it might interfere with my drinking schedule. So good luck to you.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Sigh…
war depresses me…
May we all one day follow His 8 “I’d really rather you didn’ts”
@ Johnny Corvette
sorry I upset you. I know the US has tried to help Darfur, but since it is mostly their governmet that is causing the genocide, action is very dificult. A little more attention to it in the UN might help. as to Isreal, you would think that we would at least HEAR about the bad things they do… but there are plenty of nice people in every country. convincing them to take a stand against injustice may be difficult, but an end to war could finally ensue.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Of course American religious extremists don’t exist either, and the President wouldn’t take any notice of them if they did.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

“(btw I thought you’d regained an oar?)”
.
Holy shit! Someone stole my oars again! FSMdammit. No, wait, they seem to be back. Phew. I was worried there for a moment. I think my cleaning lady had them in the wash.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

The FSM Discussion is a great forum for long, in-depth dicussions of this nature. There are a few forums there, already up and running on this subject.
http://www.venganza.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=52

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@SALMNDR92
That study which I cited in my previous post investigated the mortality rate before and after the coalition invasion and showed a substantial increase in the number of deaths. What they showed was 655,000 more deaths in Iraq than could be expected based on pre invasion mortality rates. So, more people are dying in Iraq now than they were under Saddam Hussein. That includes more people dying violent deaths and more people dying of disease. You cannot use Saddam’s tyranny as a justification for the war becuase Iraqis are worse off now than they ever were during his rule.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

I understand those who are against war. It is only natural: “war is hell”. The question you need to ask yourself is whether there is ever a reason to go to war. Whether there is a point where war is the only option.

A careful look at the facts shows a very strong case for a war to topple Sadam’s regime. Iraq was a much larger threat than poor Afghanistan ever was The Clinton administration knew this and actively pursued covert and military options against Iraq. The UN knew this and repeatedly gave Sadam ultimatum after ultimatum. The US had 100,000 troops amassed indefinitely on Iraq’s borders in an attempt to maintain the mid-east truce and maintain the no-fly zone (to keep Sadam from gassing the Kurds, etc.). His regime was a danger to his own countrymen, the region and the world. I don’t really know a clearer case for war.

Maybe if Sudan started using chemical weapon on Darfur and began to develop nuclear capabilities AND declared open hostilities against the US it would as strong of a case.

After the fiasco (more a PR fiasco then a military one) in Iraq I don’t think the US has the stomach for more intervention. So I guess if it gets bad enough in Darfur or Somalia it will be up to the mighty French military or perhaps the Dutch.

I certainly hold out and hope for UN diplomacy but their track record is not great. So perhaps “Save Darfur” will go the same way “Free Tibet” has gone – namely onto faded bumper sticker for the morally superior. Tibet is all but gone – save Darfur indeed.

@Gnocci
I am not upset but I am depressed like you. I have traveled a great deal and have lived in many parts of the US and Europe and worked in the Middle East. I hate this situation we are in and I hate how it has divided the world.

@Cleopatra
Many innocent people have died in Iraq (although I would not trust any report sanctioned by the Lancet). But it is unprecedented that Iraq has free elections, a functioning government and is hopefully moving towards a peaceful future. The newfound freedom of some 40 million Iraqis has indeed exacted a horrible price. I am not sure anyone besides the Iraq people themselves can say whether this price was worth the freedom.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@Johnny Corvette
“A careful look at the facts shows a very strong case for a war to topple Sadam’s regime.”
-
Rubbish! A careful look at the facts says that the US overstated the threat that Saddam posed to the region and his regime never posed any threat to the rest of the world. He never possesd weapons capable of striking outside the region and had no links with any terrorist organisations. The UN knew this and that is why the US started the war without UN approval. Kofi Annan, the secretary-general of the UN, was an outspoken critic of the US decision to fight the war. He believed that diplomacy was working and producing positive changes in Iraq. The decision to go to war was based on the “mammoth quantities” of weapons of mass destruction hoarded by Saddam that in fact did not exist. Not even 1. Colin Powell, the man who presented the case for war to the UN, acknowledges that the information he offered was misleading and regards the incident as a blot on his career. He said that it was a major failing of the intelligence community because it was known at some levels that the information was unreliable and nobody spoke up. Here is a link to an article about it:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Politics/story?id=1105979&page=1
-
As an aside the population of Iraq is closer to 25 million than 40.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Johnny Corvette
Jan 3rd, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Yeah – same for Eddie spaghetti. This is no place for long stupid posts of regurgitated Chomsky drivel. We are easily bored and perhaps a little dim.

So let’s stick to the topic at hand. Worship of the noodly great one and funny comments about Christian nutters. Oh and maybe a smattering of Theist vs. Non- theist philosophy and discussion. But please keep it short and sweet.

And remember kids – it doesn’t matter how many people are killed, maimed or murdered as long as the US isn’t involved in some way.

.
.
.
So we agree on somrthing. Short and sweet is good. What do you call short?

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Yes I am long winded at times as well.

I don’t have the answers I am asking at what point is it necessary to use military force? After how many years of failed diplomacy? Should we allow a state like Iraq to have a full nuclear arsenal first? Considering that every world crisis is blamed on the US (and our supposed satellite Israel) and many rouge states are openly hostile to the US (and were so long before this war) I am not surprised the US is a little trigger happy.

From the disreputable and spineless Kofi Annan 2003 -

“ The determination of the Security Council to disarm Iraq of such weapons is the most urgent issue – because Iraq has actually used such weapons in the past, and because it has twice committed aggression against its neighbours. That is why the Security Council, ever since 1991, has passed successive resolutions requiring Iraq to disarm. On this critical question, there are no divisions, no grounds for doubt, dispute or delay. “

From the Heroic yet reluctant Collin Powell – (article you linked)

“I’m always a reluctant warrior. And I don’t resent the term, I admire the term, but when the president decided that it was not tolerable for this regime to remain in violation of all these U.N. resolutions, I’m right there with him with the use of force,”

I am done posting here. Subject doesn’t seem to fit the FSM concept and I am not that in love with the sound of my own voice. I will keep it short and sweet hereafter.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Johnny Corvette;

At what point?
.
When JAPAN bombed Pearl Harbor, we attacked JAPAN.
When GERMANY sunk our ships we attacked GERMANY.
When ARABIANS based in AFGHANISTAN blew up the WTC we attacked IRAQ.
.
Which one doesn’t fit.
C’mon, it’s really pretty easy.
.
Eddie

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Time to revive an old tradition I think… the post length warning
IT’S A BIG POST CHAPS, REALLY ONLY AIMED AT JC. SORRY.
.
.
@Johnny Corvette
.
“Should we allow a state like Iraq to have a full nuclear arsenal first?”
.
.
Ahhh… you mean like North Korea?
.
Let’s see…
A country that has stated opposition to America? Check.
That’s only a short step away from open war with another country (S. Korea)? Check.
That has successfully tested nuclear weaponry? Check.
That has a theoretical range on a missile delivery system that reaches American (Alaska, true, but still…) and worse (as far as I am concerned), Australian, soil? Check.
.
The country is lead by a nutter worse than Saddam, yet I don’t hear the States doing anything about it.
.
You could argue that they are afraid to get into war because it’s right next door to the one nation that’s more powerful than America…
… but surely that cannot be much worse than pissing off, and thus radicalising, a large chunk of the muslim faith?
.
.
.
“But it is unprecedented that Iraq has free elections, a functioning government and is hopefully moving towards a peaceful future. The newfound freedom of some 40 million Iraqis has indeed exacted a horrible price.”
.
Newfound freedom? Their government is paralysed, torn between a block of Sunnis, a large block of radicalised Shiia, and a tiny little raft of moderates. If the admittedly imprecise mainstream media is to be believed, that large block of Shiia follows Moktadr Al-Sadr… he is a very fundamental sort of guy. Interestingly enough, he doesn’t like Sunnis, he doesn’t like the west, and I very much doubt he would go in for freedom of speech, opinion, or faith.
.
If Moktadr, or indeed any of the many clerics vying for power in the simmering stew of post invasion Iraq gain a significant lead, Iraq goes the way of taliban Afghanistan.
Then your much vaunted freedom vanishes.
.
Eventually, the Coalition will withdraw. It has to. No elected government can keep power in the face of the appaling bloodshed. When the Americans go, the British, the Japanese, the Australians, what do you think will happen? They can’t stay, but when they go, Iraq will sink further into hell.
.
There is no way to justify what the Coalition has done. This war is naught but a waste of life.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@ Jingles.
I think you are right.
It is very sad.
There is something very wrong with parents bringing up their children with so much hate.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

@Johnny Corvette
“I don’t have the answers I am asking at what point is it necessary to use military force? After how many years of failed diplomacy?”
-
War should always be a last resort. It was unnecessary to go to war with Iraq. As I said, “A careful look at the facts shows that the US overstated the threat that Saddam posed to the region and his regime never posed any threat to the rest of the world. He never possessed weapons capable of striking outside the region and had no links with any terrorist organisations.” Diplomacy had not failed in Iraq and diplomatic options had not been exhausted before the coalition invaded.
-
“Should we allow a state like Iraq to have a full nuclear arsenal first?”
-
This is an entirely fallacious question. At best Iraq was decades away from a nuclear arsenal. There are no serious plans on the table to attack Iran or North Korea who are both much closer to possessing functional nuclear weapons, North Korea may even have them now. In their cases diplomacy is being used, as it should be.
-
As to the two quotes; Firstly, Kofi Annan was acknowledging that Iraq posed a threat, he was definitely not suggesting that force should be used in Iraq. If that is spineless then Colin Powell must also be called spineless for he shared those sentiments. Secondly, Colin Powell was merely stating that even though he disagreed with the decision to go to war, once it was made there was no room for dissent. That is a demonstration of his loyalty not his belief in the righteousness of the war.
-
I’ll leave you with a quote from Dominique de Villepin the French Minister of Foreign Affairs made prior to the invasion:
“France has two convictions: The first is that the option of inspections has not been taken to the end and that it can provide an effective response to the imperative of disarming Iraq; the second is that the use of force would be so fraught with risks for people, for the region and for international stability that it should only be envisioned as a last resort.”
-
Prophetic words, if only Bush, Blair et al. had listened.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

hmm, the flying spaghetti monster is getting political eh? I’m no too good with that stuff so let me boil it down a bit. I may not have felt the touch of his noodly appendage on my brow, so it is only a humble opinion, but I do believe that the fsm would never wish for the killing of others, especially massive casualties (such a cold word) of innocent people. And this, in my very humble opinion, is one thing that the fsm and the Christian god have in common, however, there will always be those that lose their way and kill in the name of thier god (i don’t think any pastafarians have killed in the name of the fsm)

Like or Dislike: 0  0

Coleoptera Jan 6th, 2007 at 9:57 pm:
RAMen Coleoptera. RAMen.

Johnny’s comment:

Should we allow a state like Iraq to have a full nuclear arsenal first?

Is very worrying in the broader context.
Is he proposing that we should pre-emptively invade all states we don’t like the look of that have nuclear ambitions? North Korea and Iran spring readily to mind.

The main problem with heavy-handed American-style diplomacy is that it doesn’t really work.
The world can’t afford go in the N. Korea and Iran all guns blazing.
Shock and Awe has a terribly propensity to end as Crash and Burn.
The current state of Iraq was recognised as inevitable from the start.
It was appalling naive to expect any other outcome.
Of course it will fraction and degenerate in to in-fighting as the various interests vie for supremacy in the power vacuum. Yugoslavia was expected to and did go the same way after Tito.
It seems to me the more oppressive the regime the greater the vacuum they leave behind.

Like or Dislike: 0  0

RAmen at bones’ comment! His comment has detailed what all Pastafarian should strive for! Thank you bones! ^_^

Please keep the Flying Spaghetti Monster pure from flames!

Like or Dislike: 0  0

In complete agreement with Cap Noodulous, and as such have approached the Ezichat Corporation ( from my domocilary edifice here in the antipodes) to tithe a percentage of their revenue generated in Australia and New Zealand, to promote peace and FSM..the CEO has indicated an agreement will be achieved before 2nd Qtr “07…

Like or Dislike: 0  0