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An elaborate spoof on Intelligent Design, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is neither too elaborate nor too spoofy to succeed in nailing the fallacies of ID. It's even wackier than Jonathan Swift's suggestion that the Irish eat their children as a way to keep them from being a burden, and it may offend just as many people, but Henderson, described elsewhere as a 25-year-old "out-of-work physics major," puts satire to the same serious use that Swift did. Oh, yes, it is very funny. -- Scientific American
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@Religious monster Dec 19th, 2007 at 10:48 am
“it would mean that I would have to stop trying to convince people in my believe as you are trying to convince people in yours. Thus I dont feel defeated, as I already told you before. I have a personal relationship with God, as stupid as this might sound to you.”
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I don’t get these people who stress that they have a personal relationship with god, but then strenuously try to get others to accept and follow their beliefs. Just sounds completely ironic to me. I would have thought that having a personal relationship with god would not entail regurgitating the same fallacious fundamentalist *arguments* that every other fundamentalist creationist uses as well?
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Just have a look at any creationist propaganda website and you’ll see almost identical *arguments* ( most of which have been debunked over and over and over by respected professionals in each of the relevant fields of scientific inquiry) and yet the creationists all claim their own belief is based on a *personal relationship* with god, not from following religion??
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Comes across more like following a particular dogma of religion to me.
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I’ve been involved in discussions with many anti-evolution creationists on quite a number of web sites/ blogs and it’s very very common to come across a creationist, trying to put up one of the all too common creationist anti-evolution *arguments* (a lot of us seem to know most of them better then they do themselves :), being gently reminded by another creationist as to what they are meant to believe and argue. But still, all the while, the confused creationist is stressing that they don’t follow religion, but instead have a *personal relationship* with god?
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These “personal relationship with god not religion” statements appear to have become increasingly common, especially over the past 3 or 4 months.
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Perhaps Religious monster could explain this trend?
Oh, and another common increasingly theme of such proclamations, usually when pushed to explain the difference, is that other church brand believers follow religion….for example a common theme is that Catholics are not *Christians* (who have a personal relationship with god), but rather, are all followers of *religion*. Yet I’ve rarely come across these so called *religions* trying to sell creationism to me. I can kinda see the fund a mentalist logic (*coff*) in such proclamations….
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@Jennyanydots Dec 19th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
“It is a process and you assigning conscious thought to it is akin to suggesting that the tarmac on a road not only know which town is at either end, but also the best place to go for a drink when it gets there.”
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Good analogy Jennyanydots :)
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@ Religious monster
Sorry I failed to address this point so I will do so now
“4.Why whould the sience in our DNA that we believe in give us a desire for some Devine power(a God)? This is not necessary for survival, as you being a atheist would know. My logic tells me that the creater of humans, even if it is evolution wanted us to believe that there is a higher power.”
No we are instructed to obey a leader by are DNA. See primates are a social animal so we need a leader for a group. The problem is that human society is so big that we end up fitting into multiple groups of individuals. The leader of you religious group tell you something, and cos you chose to be in that grope you agree regardless of facts.
Thinking that a higher power “Programmed” you to believe stems from the fact you “want” to believe.
You keep trying to bring new points to the discussion once I have argued against your previous faulty point of view. You seem to be trying to divert from the fact you can’t counter argue me so just try to hop from on subject to another. If you want me to show you a shred of respect then back up your previous points rather than try to grab new ones when the old ones fail.
The fact that your last lot of arguments, and the ones before that and the ones before that, fail to hold water shows your religion to be false anyway.
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@Religious Monster,
Two points concerning the DNA point you attempted to make (the rest of your email isn’t worth replying to, I’m sorry to say). There are several very logical explanations concerning why humans might be genetically “programmed” to believe in a higher power.
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First, our self-awareness. As a conscious, sentient being equipped with linguistic capabilities, humans are able to consider their own mortality, their own tiny little niche in a relatively infinite universe. This is something that other animals haven’t had to contend with. Obviously, it is difficult for humans to face the fact that their 80 or 90 years on earth is simply a blip in time and that after they die, they decompose and return to the carbon cycle that continues to produce life. (I for one, find this ending quite poetic and am fully content to know that quite literally, the elements of my body will feed continuing generations). Evolutionarily, happy and content individuals, it can be hypothesized (and has been hypothesized by many in the social evolutionary fields) have a higher survival rate and are more reproductively fit than those who are depressed and antisocial. Belief in god fills a necessary adaptive gap in a sentient organism: it gives purpose to life. Thus those with the genetic disposition to be believers began to dominate the gene pool and now 90% of people believe in god.
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Second, other hypotheses have been put forward concerning the evolutionary place of “belief.” For instance, many animals respond to sound or other sensory input without actually seeing what it is they are responding to. This is adaptive in that animals that run at the sound of rustling bushes will escape predators more often than those that don’t, even if in a majority of the cases the noise was caused by wind blowing through the underbrush. Thus, humans included, many animals that are not at the top of the food chain have a genetic predisposition to responding to the unseen. In humans, we have attached meaning to the unseen and we usually give this meaning a name: god.
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I could go on and on with the adaptive possibilities of believing in god, but I think you get the point. The likely scenario is that a number of adaptive strategies were selected for in which god was planted in our genetic structure…now, at certain times when we feel things we can’t explain, our brain orders the secretion of feel-good hormones and we say, “Thank you, Lord.”
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RAmen,
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P.E.T.
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Maybe the internet just attracts more atheists or something, but the vast majority of people I know online (and, actually, in my school) are atheist or agnostic. I would debate the 90% believe in God figure.
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Today I came across another argument in favour of the FSM (parmesan be upon him):
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“The concept of a perfect God is already in itself the demonstration of the non-existence of a God creator. The word perfect, in its meaning of absolute completeness, excludes a God who had the desire and the need to give himself, through creation, something that he lacked”.
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(see http://www.luigicascioli.eu/cascioli_inglese/argomenti-nel-sito/argomenti-nel-sito/the-atheism-of-luigi-cascioli.html)
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Therefore the universe could only have been created by an imperfect God, i.e. the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Based on this argument we should claim more time for unintelligent design than that would be available for ID/creationism.
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Ramen
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@ Religioius monstrer. Think of it the way ducks learn to follow the first thing they see when they crack out of the egg. Normal imprinting (the name biologists give to this process) will have the ducklings following their mama. But if the first thing they see when they pop out is a cat, then they will follow the cat whereever it goes.
In the same way, humans are hard wired to learn beliefs without any critical faculties coming into play in the first 3-5 years of their existence. If a belief in God is programmed into them at that time they will have a devil of a time divesting themselves of that belief for their entire lifespan. In point of fact, they might invent an elaborate ratioalization which suggests that “man is a being for God” who has this desire implanted by the putative creator himself. But if you use Ockham’s razor, you will see little kids learn to believe in lots of stuff (Santa, tooth fairy, Cinderella, imaginary friends, etc). Because society encourages them to grow out of the other beliefs, they do, but God…
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Religious monster-”1.Accourding to facts +/-90% of the world believes in a God.
2.The ammount of intelligent people in this 90% exceeds the ammount in the 10% not believing in a God. This meaning that a large ammount of people having great knowledge of science still believes in a God.”
the facts posed is probably true, there is however a significant difference between intellegence and knowledge. intellegence is just a matter of effectivness, often specified as the efficency of the brain and is a measure on how fast you’ll come to a conclution, where knowledge is rather what you base your conclution on. Most people in the world probably have loads of knowledge in their special line of proffesion, this does not qualify them to vote on how the world was created
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@Pluto
“The fact that your last lot of arguments, and the ones before that and the ones before that, fail to hold water shows your religion to be false anyway.” That is no fact. I might just not be the best person to convince you that God does exist because of my lack of knowledge. This does not mean that there wont be other people that will be able to counter your arguments.
A lot of websites has this line of “10 Reasons why God exist” .
Please give me your 10 best arguments why you feel that God does not exist.
Then I will try to counter each.
Please dont get me wrong, this is not a test, that states that if I cant
counter a certain amount of your ten arguments God does not exist.
This is merely a test for me to know why most atheist wil never believe in a God.
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To fundies life makes only sense when connected to a divine creator and a hypothetical afterlife.
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Funny, I pretty much like the idea of the whole galaxy being an accident. We could as well never have been here, so what? Let’s make the best of it.
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Religious pretention coming from people who profess humbleness when unable to drop the idea of the human being having been put on top of the creation in order to dominate it.
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Religious monster,
@Religious monster
I hope Pluto will not follow your suggestion, since the burden of proof for the “truth” of a given myth is on the one who makes this myth up.
For example, if I would say
1. There is an invisible pink unicorn who created all the forests
2. There is a Flying Spaghetti Monster who created mountains and midgets
3. There is cow Audhumla who licked Norse god Bor and his wife into being out of ice
3. There is god Jahwe who sired a demigod with a human virgin female
4. There is god-servant Brahma who created the world
5. There is god Vishnu who ordered Brahma to create the world
6. There is god Allah who ordered Muhammad to spread his words by the sword
7. There is god Bumba who vomited sun and moon into being
8. There is The Force in me and every other Jedi
9. There is angel Moroni dealing with golden plates
10. There is a volcano somewhere full of spirits of aliens
it would be entirely up to me to provide proof for these. On the other hand, if I would say that none of these things exist, fine, no proof necessary for that. It is simply against Occam’s razor.
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Concerning #2, however, there is a lot of scientific evidence, as everybody surely is aware of!
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(I had to modify my post from the other day. Fore some reason it didn’t get past Moderation)
@Religious Monster
I am going to restate what I have said before.
You have made lots of claims during the course of this little debate.
All of them I have successfully argued against and undermined.
Having had your opinion invalidated you try to jump to some other point with out defending your previous points.
You have been proven wrong, not just by me but by many others, every time.
And now you are trying to put the burden of proof on me? This is a pathetic tactic on your part.
You are making the absurdist claims, so the burden of proof is, as it always has been, on you!
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You are asking for 10 reasons not to believe. All my counter arguments are reasons to believe what you believe is untrue.
If you want to play this game play it with your self.
Go back and pick 10 of my arguments and try to disprove me, if you can.
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When are you going to stop jumping from point to point rather than stand your ground and try to prove me wrong and yourself right?
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You have failed at every turn. I have demonstrated what you believe in as a lie and yet you continued to argue. This was fine with me as it gave me more to do. I enjoy what I do here and consider myself very good at it. You constantly fail!
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And now after all that you have claimed to be true you say “I might just not be the best person to convince you that God does exist because of my lack of knowledge. This does not mean that there won’t be other people that will be able to counter your arguments.” So were you opinions ever valid? You seem to be saying, feel free to correct me, that you have very little idea what you are talking about.
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Now unless your next post is to defend the points you have already tried to make I will consider it a defeat of you and your ideas. If you understand logic you will know this to be a defeated of all you believe in!
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Feel free to get the help of those you think will be capable of arguing with me. Go ask you minister if you like.
I will look forward to your reply. If you re-defend your points, proving they are valid, you will have my respect. If you continue to flap about like a bed sheet is a storm you will, as I stated above, be proven wrong yet again. Ether way I will be happy.
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@Pluto
I never get angry arguing about this religion topic. And I do learn alot everytime I have a debate on this topic. If you do wish continue this debate invite me on chat jpleroux9706@gmail . This way we might sort out a few differences more quickly. If you do not want to, its fine and you can tell every one that you have defeated religious monster if that will please you, for I still don`t feel defeated.
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@Pluto
Merry Christmas.
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@Darwin
“There is god Jahwe who sired a demigod with a human virgin female” – That was Jahwe? Are you sure?
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@Religious monster
Beating you brings very little satisfaction. You failing to argy your points are disappointing.
If your faith is so important to you expect you to know enough about why you believe to argue them.
And if you know your right you will not be afraid to discuss them here.
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If you do wish continue this debate invite me on chat jpleroux9706@gmail .
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@Pluto
Feel free to publish anything in private chat debate on this forum, I dont mind.
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@Religious Monster
There’s plenty of evidence to support the non existance of god (not the least of which is god’s reluctance to reveal himself in any tangible way – given god is all powerful, immortal and presumably quite fearless). What’s your standard of proof? Balance of probability or beyond a reasonable doubt? And don’t try and explain why god won’t reveal itself – that calls for speculation which is generally inadmissable (even on Judge Judy)
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@Repmuht
“There’s plenty of evidence to support the non existance of god (not the least of which is god’s reluctance to reveal himself in any tangible way – given god is all powerful, immortal and presumably quite fearless).”
I guess God just don`t want to reveal himself to every person who wish not to believe in him until they`ve seen him. It sounds like great evidence for his non` existance.
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coooooool!!!
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@Religious monster- If you have something to say, say it here. I’ve chassed you round in circles and you have yet to counter argue me. Why do you suddenly whish to carry on this “debate” (though I fail to see any real debating on your part) in private? Sorry but if you want to get all creepy uncle with me then find someone else. If you have a point you would like to make now would be the time to make it.
Come on monster wow me with your piece of evidence that you are right about god.
I’m assuming you have one. You know, other than your “personal relationship” which you have yet to clarify by the way.
I’ll be waiting, as always, for a religious person to give me something that might actually prove a bit of a challenge to debate.
Remember Monster- the burden of proof is on you. Please amaze me.
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I am really upset to see how disrespectful some people are to the FSM religion. Other religions deserve and in some cases demand respect, so why not the FSM? If for example people suggested that the usual papal vestments were a bit weird or old fashioned they would get a pretty hard time I bet. Time to lay off the image and principles of the FSM and accept its adherents as full and fruitful members of our society.
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LAWL…. LAME…
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Nice meatballs
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Crulix: “faith” is the name of the hole that remains in a man’s brain when Reason, his only means of acquiring knowledge, has been turned off.
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Do you all believe in heaven, angels, hell, and demons?
Why do you have a picture of someone about to stab God? why God and not Budha or Ra and gods like that? just curious.
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Do you all believe in heaven, angles, hell, and demons?
Why do you have a picture of someone about to stab God and not Budha, or Ra, or whoever? just curious.
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No, no, no and no.
And because Xian’s are the main source of confrontation and blasphemy toward his Noodlyness. And they are more obnoxious, (And the only people who want to pass off ID as science) whereas Buddha and Ra are well, pretty bad ass. And their followers arent complete twats either. (Although.. I don’t think I’ve met a modern worshipper of Ra)
Buddhism. My next step in life? Maybe.
Gonna be president too though… How awesome would a FSM worshippin’ prez be?
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@COG
“Do you all believe in heaven, angles, hell, and demons?
Why do you have a picture of someone about to stab God and not Budha, or Ra, or whoever? just curious.”
Oh, definitely heaven, with beer and strippers (and I sincerely hope, chocolate). We also believe in “angles”, both obtuse and acute. As for hell and demons, no, you can keep those. There is nothing in the Gospel of the FSM saying that the noodly one sees any need to threaten anyone with eternal punishment for not believing.
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I notice you are assuming that “god” in these pictures is necessarily the christian god. How do you know that isn’t “Ra”? (Buddha would not be fighting at all, so I think you are right about it not being Buddha). Maybe it’s “Thor”, with his hammer upside down. Or “John Frum” of the cargo cult of Vanuatu. I don’t know what kind of religious symbol they use. This seems like a pretty generic “god” figure to me – could be anybody.
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RAmen
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Correction, Mr. Banner. Faith is a great strength that the feeble-minded sadly cannot comprehend. They believe they can get around all by themselves, though they never truly succeed. Too bad they are too foolish to look beyond themselves.
Could you all be making fun of God because there is a small area in your hearts that is afraid of such a deity? Food for thought, that.
Your spaghetti monster is nothing. I eat his ancestors for dinner(and they are quite good). Unlike in your reenactment, I seriously doubt God is a weak little fool. He could smite you on a whim, but he is gracious and would forgive you instead.
And if you are wondering why this so-called “FSM” is put down, maybe, just maybe, it is because you act in the selfsame manner toward others, especially Christianity. Do on to others as you would have them do to you.
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@ Xos ” I east his ancestors for dinner” – that must be some pretty stale pasta.
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@Xos Jan 8th, 2008 at 10:35 am
“Faith is a great strength that the feeble-minded sadly cannot comprehend.”
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Well there you go….we all have great faith in the Noodly One :)
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“Could you all be making fun of God because there is a small area in your hearts that is afraid of such a deity?”
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I think we would all be on our knees chanting in church if that were the case wouldn’t it?
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“I eat his ancestors for dinner(and they are quite good.”
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Excellent! You are partaking of sacrament. :) Keep right on and you may sometime be touched by His Noodly appendage.
I will mention you in my prayers to His Spaghettiness.
RAmen
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@Xos
Oh I’m going to have some fun with you.
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“Faith is a great strength that the feeble-minded sadly cannot comprehend.”
Soooo, why are most non-believers in the upper end of the IQ range? Biologists, doctors, geologists, palaeontologists, physicists and astronomers all refute what is written in the bible.
In comparison, most of our hate mail comes from illiterate rednecks? Yes I can see why we are feeble minded. We can’t see the logic of having sex with our sisters or pipe bombing an abortion clinic. Or giving our hard earned cash to an evangelist, who lives in a big house wile secretly smoking meth and having sex with a rent boy.
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“They believe they can get around all by themselves, though they never truly succeed.”
Anyone you’d like to site in particular?
I find it quite sad that you feel that you are unable to achieve anything on your own. I’ll assume that anything you have achieved in your life is down to god as you are to “feeble-minded” to achieve anything your self.
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“Too bad they are too foolish to look beyond themselves.”
I look beyond myself all the time. Know what I see? Science in all it’s glory. I also see pathetic people of faith who can’t even click on the about tab at the top of a web page.
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“Could you all be making fun of God because there is a small area in your hearts that is afraid of such a deity?”
No, not at all. We don’t make fun of your god, because we don’t believe it exists. We make fun of people like you who believe in fairies at the bottom of their garden and who try to live to an almost impossible stranded set in a self contradicting book. I suggest you read some of the posts. Pick a few points if you like and try to argue against them. Of course that would require using your brain a little, and that might mean having to see the flaws in your own narrow world view.
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“Food for thought, that.”
Not even a snack I’m afraid.
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“Your spaghetti monster is nothing. I eat his ancestors for dinner(and they are quite good).”
So you didn’t click on the about tab did you? You seem to have missed the whole point with your “feeble mind”. As nothing as the FSM maybe, it still has infinitely more substance than your god or even you attempts at an argument.
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“Unlike in your reenactment, I seriously doubt God is a weak little fool.”
No too right, your god is and insubstantial fantasy.
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“He could smite you on a whim, but he is gracious and would forgive you instead.”
Not what is says in the bible! Your god is all hell fire and brimstone, wrathful and angry, he smites left right and centre without regard for the individual. He incites rape, murder, genocide, incest and torture.
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“And if you are wondering why this so-called “FSM” is put down, maybe, just maybe, it is because you act in the selfsame manner toward others, especially Christianity.”
That’s one of the points. Religion in general and yours in particular, has a long history of persecuting those of different beliefs. And just to make a point, they come here looking for a fight then get pissy when we beat them down like the curs they are.
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“Do on to others as you would have them do to you.”
And one day there will be no religion to spread hate and evil in the world, and then your statement might hold true.
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I don’t understand why you all hate God.
Why don’t you believe He exists?
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@COG- Maybe you should try reading the posts? Just an idea. If you look back several pages you’ll find plenty of reasons.
I can I note once again: Wile it is impossible to ether prove or disprove A god, it’s very easy to disprove the god of any religion in the world.
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I admire you, Pluto! Your Flying Spaghetty Monster must be a very powerful god to give you the energy to answer all that Christian crap again and again. I feel I’m on the verge of being converted!
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Arguing for the existence of God, is the same as arguing about the existence of air. One cannot see it, but they have to experience it for themselves.
It would be foolish for me to say, that there is no such thing as air. Because I would have to utilize the very qualities to breathe, and depend on the air to be heard. The air is the path that sound travels through. If my argument is heard, it wouldn’t make sense.
The Laws of Logic, are the reflection of How God Thinks. Without God there wouldn’t be any laws of Logic, gravity,centripetal force, etc. Logic is not made by man’s convention. Logic is always constant, as God is always the same. According to man’s rational,In America it’s “logical” to drive on the right side of the road, but in other coutries it’s “lawful” to drive on the left. Who decides morals and ethics, Who says it’s wrong to kill, steal, and to lie. God says that. Men cannot make their own rules, because everyone would do what they feel is right. But there is ONE STANDARD OF LIVING, and that’s God’s.
Design? I know Louis Vuitton existd, because of his fashion design. I know Vera Wang existed because of her Merchadise. I know God of exists, because of the Universe. Latin universe(- uni- “single” verse-”spoken sentence”) We live in a Universe/ Single Spoken Sentence. We live in God’s word. “LET THERE BE!
THe Lack in Belief, doesn’t negate the existence. I can’t believe Bush is still President, but he is for now.
We are not products of Randomness. If we were, how do we know, if our brain functions are in the proper sequence, n how do you determine what is “proper”. And how do you know, if you know! What is true, n how to discern it.
Amen! God is Good
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Hey Geltown,
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Thanks for the post…Where to start! Well, let’s start at the beginning.
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1. God and air: Air is a combination of, mainly, nitrogen and oxygen. You know how I know that? Because of thousands of years of scientific investigation…that includes testable hypothetical questions, their experiments, and the answers to them (both positive and negative). The point is, Geltown, we have derived the periodic table of elements through vigorous testing, quantum mathematics, particle acceleration, and good old electron microscope work. We know what air is because it IS NOT INVISIBLE. It has properties of matter because IT EXISTS. Now let’s go to god. Can you give me a similar argument for his existance (i.e. a testable hypothesis, an argument that he is matter therefore he is detectable, etc.). If not, then god and air have nothing more in common.
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2. “The laws of logic, are the reflection of how god thinks”: so let’s start with this: there are NO laws of logic. Gravity and centripetal force are laws of physics…the basic building blocks of the working universe, but surely, no “laws of logic.” Logic, as you suggest and then default on, are products of human innovation. Just as it’s “logical” in your mind to eat bread every Sunday and call it, quite literally, “the body of Christ,” it is logical for me to laugh at you. Cultural upbringing decides “logic.” Science is included in this statement. Yes, I said it! However, I am speaking not of the FACTS that have been determined by tests, but more the paradigms from which scientists operate. It wouldn’t have been logical to test the forces of gravity before Newton proved it existed and so certain assumption were made for arguments prior to its discovery. Of course, once the scientific paradigm shifted to include gravitational principles (and calculus among other things), new factual evidence arose but within a new set of assumptions. We still operate with untold numbers of assumptions, but experiment continuously reshapes the paradigm from which we work.
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3. Design: The big one. Vera Wang would be very upset…you know she’s still alive? People always like to see “order” in the universe when in actuality, there is mass chaos and randomness all over. It is simply because we operate within a paradigm that expects order from gravity and other processes and that fails to see massive change over billions of years because we live for a mere century. Now Geltown, I’ve written to many people like you explaining the whole mutation leads to changes over time/speciation events/genetic evidence and timelines/the random nature of the universe. Go back and find these posts because it’s getting to be a waste of my time. There are massive genetic diseases that ruin people’s lives; there are millions of “design” flaws within each and every one of us; evolution does not lead to more complicated things, it simply leads to individuals who are fit given a very specific environment, if that environment changes, that individual dies and that may cause the extinction of an entire species. The universe is random and there is evidence everywhere you look.
If you would like more information, come back at me with some more specific questions and I will be happy to provide clear answers for them.
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4. “Truth”: The concept of “truth” is for philosophers and by getting into this circular system of logic we will end up with Descartes saying, “I think therefore I am.” For all I know, under this system, I may in a “Matrix”-style holding cell and all of this is my imagination. I don’t like these kinds of arguments because they are the stuff of religion: hypothetical statements that cannot be tested and must be believed through a system of faith; this makes them utter moot points to argue about.
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RAmen,
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P.E.T.
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I really love how a lot of us take the time to answer hate-mail posts but to no avail. No one ever writes back. No one wants a legitimate debate. Everyone just wants to complain and remain ignorant.
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That’s right. That’s you Geltown and all the others who never even try.
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RAmen,
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P.E.T.
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this is a response to RAmen,or P.E.T,or whatever you call yourself to make you feel cool…
all i have to say is stop reigning on peoples parades. why do you have to go around crushing the beliefs of others. is it beacause you do not have any of your own. what is so wrong with people having faith in something that cannot be explained or seen. faith gives people purpose and hope for something good to come out of something bad like death. besides, where did the human race come from if there is no god and if you really believe that human beings evolved from the primates then you must be ignorant. scientist themselves have not concluded the origin of mankind. so stop with your scientific bullshit and actually think about the possibility of a super natural being that created all living and none living matter.
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Hey Tom,
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You have to realize a few things. It makes little difference to me, personally, if people choose to live a life of faith. That is their choice and that’s all there is to it. However, if they also choose to attempt, as you have, to ignorantly impose things that you have heard onto the scientific world, that is where my problem comes in. With ignorance of scientific data and research comes ideas like “Intelligent Design,” the premise of FSMism.
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Tom, I don’t “believe” that “human beings evolved from primates,” I have come this conclusion based on overwhelming fossil, genetic, environmental, chemical, and archaeological evidence. Scientists have not concluded upon the DETAILS of human origins (i.e. the exact cladistic relationships between the robust australopithecines of South and East Africa, the Miocene origins of African apes, the earliest forms of stone tool technology); the premise of humans evolving from primates is universally accepted as true (among all mainstream academics, I’m not talking about “Answers in Genesis” Ph.Ds here).
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I’m totally open to giving you the details of how and why we have come to these conclusions. If you decide to lead a life of faith, please do so and I won’t bother you about it. If you try to say that I am wrong in the physical evidence that I have personally excavated and researched, then I will absolutely respond otherwise. Please, more questions, we can have a mature and intelligent dialogue!
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P.E.T.
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if you don’t believe in God, how is He supposed to accept you in Heaven ? the only thing that he is asking is that you love Him and love the others. Now it’s your choice
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Dale Scerri,
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I think you have missed the point of a lot of this. If there isn’t a god, then there isn’t a heaven to go to. Now, as I said, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to unless it is pushed on me or is used as “evidence” against scientific data. So, please, believe what you want to believe and I will do the same. The thing I don’t understand is the notion that belief is good enough. What about action? If I don’t believe in god because he/she/it didn’t provide ANY evidence for themself but provided an unbelievable volume of evidence contrary to his/her/its own existence, but I lead a good, moral and humble life anyway, what is the problem here? Is this god going to smite me for eternity for leading a good life based on factual evidence that he/she/it provided for me? That doesn’t seem like a fair game to me.
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RAmen,
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P.E.T.
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Geltown, Tom and now Dale,
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What’s the deal, guys?
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RAmen,
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P.E.T.
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LOL. Everyone is sad. Especially the people who know which bits in the bible are which. However everyone on this website is not silly. Apart tom eyles he’s a nob
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I’m with RAmen/P.E.T. on this one. I have absoloutly no problems with people having faith in things that don’t exist. Thats their perogative. My problem is when they try to force those beliefs into out politics and our schools. Didn’t the founding fathers of the US hope to create a nation free from religious bigotry that had infected the european governments? What happened there?
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Wow!
Some people have said some very nice things about me. I’m actually touched. I haven’t been on for a wile because I can’t post from work anymore and spend my evening talking to Pam.
I have the energy to argue with these people because I hate to see lies sprouted about as the truth.
If I inspire anyone here to use a bit of logic and reasoning, regardless of which side of the debate you are on I consider it time well spent.
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Now for a little of what I do best!
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@ tom
“all i have to say is stop reigning on peoples parades. why do you have to go around crushing the beliefs of others.”
If those beliefs are crushed then they were never that strong in the first place.
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“is it beacause you do not have any of your own.”
I can’t answer for “P.E.T” but for me it’s because these lies (and we have shown them to be such) are dangerous to all humanity. Religion kills! That’s not some stupid proper gander; it’s a stone cold fact. More people have died directly or indirectly from the religious beliefs, and the rejection of the facts that goes with these beliefs, then anything else ever. Only religion can make a man feel so justified for doing something so wrong.
It’s still the great divider in the world. Something to hate each other for.
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“what is so wrong with people having faith in something that cannot be explained or seen.”
It prevents them from seeing the truth which might save their life and, as mentioned above, gives them more reason to hate and kill.
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“faith gives people purpose and hope for something good to come out of something bad like death.”
Without it, death would not seem so bad. The idea of heaven might give you something to look forward to when you die, but surly hell is something to fear. Would a suicide bomber blow himself up if he didn’t ‘believe’ paradise awaited him?
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“besides, where did the human race come from if there is no god and if you really believe that human beings evolved from the primates then you must be ignorant.”
No, to believe that means you looked at all the supporting evidence, not a bunch of disprove crap written in a self contradicting book.
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“ scientist themselves have not concluded the origin of mankind.”
Yes they have. Read some of the evidence and you would know that.
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“so stop with your scientific bullshit…”
Have to cut in mid sentence. Scientific theories go through testing and have to stand up to scrutiny. Religion refuses to face scrutiny and just…. Well does what you’re doing tom.
“ and actually think about the possibility of a super natural being that created all living and none living matter.”
And think about that being, being a ball of flying spaghetti tom. No do you see the point?
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@ Dale Scerri- “if you don’t believe in God, how is He supposed to accept you in Heaven ?”
Well see the problem there is you have to believe in heaven too?
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“the only thing that he is asking is that you love Him and love the others.”
Have you read the bible? God actually asks you to kill those of different belief. To tolerate him will bring his wrath! Look in ‘Judges’, its all there. If you don’t utilise complete genocide then god will bitch slap you.
If you want to argue a point at least have the decency to know what you are arguing for. You, Dale, are arguing for a genocidal, incest loving, tyrannical egomaniac.
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“Now it’s your choice”
Yes, and I chose reason.
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Nice to be back.
Hugs and kisses
Pluto
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Hey Pluto,
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Nice to have you back. Thanks for the help, unfortunately, these guys find enough gusto to post their “opinions” but then can’t find the guts (logic?) to comment on ours. It’s an unrewarding world, but I simply find their lack of commentary as a waving white flag.
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I’m glad we could convince you guys (Geltown, Tom and Dale), so RAmen to you now that you’ve switched over to the Noodly side.
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P.E.T.
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