Pastafarian Wedding

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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Cap'n Tedward on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:59 am

still way ahead of the US...
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Bearded Clam on Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:14 am

Arrrgh Gidday,
Looking for a Pastafarian wedding celebrant in New Zealand (Auckland North) for a September wedding vow renewal
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Roy Hunter on Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:04 pm

So today Scotland passed the Equal Marriage Act into law. In order to placate the religious homophobes, it has an exemption for religious organisations: they have to 'opt in' to performing same-sex marriages, if it's not offensive to their belief system.

But that exemption goes totally against the third I'd Really Rather You Didn't:
I'd Really Rather You Didn't Judge People For The Way They Look, Or How They Dress, Or The Way They Talk, Or, Well, Just Play Nice, Okay? Oh, And Get This Through You Thick Heads: Woman=Person, Man=Person. Samey-Samey. One is Not Better Than The Other, Unless We're Talking About Fashion And I'm Sorry, But I Gave That To Women And Some Guys Who Know The Difference Between Teal And Fuchsia.
...and frankly I find it offensive to my religion (totally ignoring the first I'd Really Rather You Didn't), and I don't think we want to be associated with religions that hold views like that.

So I'm thinking of petitioning the Scottish Parliament for an exemption from the exemption, so that we would not be not forced into conducting same-sex marriages. Being allowed to hold bigoted views may be OK for some religions, but I don't think Pastafarians should be treated in this manner!
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Almighty Doer of Stuff on Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:50 pm

No comprende...? :nefyoobash:
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Roy Hunter on Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:21 pm

We legalised and equalised same-sex marriage, but in the usual political fudge we gave an exemption to religions who disapprove of homosexuality. They do not have to treat same-sex couples the same as mixed-sex, and can refuse to marry them.

In this country it is against the law for an organisation to discriminate on the basis of sexuality or sexual identity. Unless you are a religion, it appears.

Seeing as Pastafarianism is an egalitarian religion, which treats men, women, straights, gays, lesbians, trans, whatever as equal, I would like to ask for an exemption from the religious exemption. I want us to be obliged to treat same-sex couples the same as mixed-sex couples.

I don't want Pastafarianism to be associated with bigoted and homophobic religions.
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby daftbeaker on Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:03 pm

Roy Hunter wrote:We legalised and equalised same-sex marriage, but in the usual political fudge we gave an exemption to religions who disapprove of homosexuality. They do not have to treat same-sex couples the same as mixed-sex, and can refuse to marry them.

In this country it is against the law for an organisation to discriminate on the basis of sexuality or sexual identity. Unless you are a religion, it appears.

Seeing as Pastafarianism is an egalitarian religion, which treats men, women, straights, gays, lesbians, trans, whatever as equal, I would like to ask for an exemption from the religious exemption. I want us to be obliged to treat same-sex couples the same as mixed-sex couples.

I don't want Pastafarianism to be associated with bigoted and homophobic religions.

Almighty Doer of Stuff wrote:No comprende...? :nefyoobash:

A shorter version:
Marriage in the UK is legally determined by a marriage certificate.
All civil courts/registry offices are obliged to marry people, no matter if their genitalia match or not.
All churches are expected to marry members of their congregation. Certain religious groups object to this and insist on their right to be bigots (to the extent that the catholic church in the UK threatened to shut down childrens' homes rather than be forced to let gay couples adopt).
Roy is suggesting the church of the FSM be exempt from the exemption and we should be made to follow the law of the land as it applies to all secular people.

Personally I can't see a religion getting anywhere if we don't start making arbitrary restrictions and hate figures. I nominate stringy cheese as unclean and people that stand in front of train doors as infidels.
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:22 pm

daftbeaker wrote:All churches are expected to marry members of their congregation. Certain religious groups object to this and insist on their right to be bigots.


Expected, but not required? Could they deny performing the marriage for a straight couple, for whatever reason (that is, not for no reason)?

I agree that an exemption is stupid, but I also feel like it would be redundant. Though I'm sure there's some piece of U.K. legality I don't grasp or am not aware of. My question is I guess of practicality: If same sex marriage is as legal as opposite sex marriage (including in terms of weddings/religious marriage)... why would a couple want to be married by a church that didn't want to marry them? Like, when would that come up? If it doesn't, then it seems the exemption is sort of legally superfluous.
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby daftbeaker on Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:36 pm

Qwertyuiopasd wrote:
daftbeaker wrote:All churches are expected to marry members of their congregation. Certain religious groups object to this and insist on their right to be bigots.

Expected, but not required? Could they deny performing the marriage for a straight couple, for whatever reason (that is, not for no reason)?

Yes. (As far as I remember) if a church can show that one or both of the people are not members of their faith then they have no obligation to marry them. If I remember rightly, they don't even have to marry members of their congregation if they choose not to (this is from memory and from quite a few years ago).

Qwertyuiopasd wrote:I agree that an exemption is stupid, but I also feel like it would be redundant. Though I'm sure there's some piece of U.K. legality I don't grasp or am not aware of. My question is I guess of practicality: If same sex marriage is as legal as opposite sex marriage (including in terms of weddings/religious marriage)... why would a couple want to be married by a church that didn't want to marry them? Like, when would that come up? If it doesn't, then it seems the exemption is sort of legally superfluous.

It's the whole point of equality under the law. If someone is allowed to perform marriage ceremonies, then they perform marriage ceremonies. You wouldn't accept going into a government building and being told 'sorry, we can't renew your passport because you're straight, you'll have to go to the other building at the other end of the city', why should you accept the same thing with a marriage certificate?

The obvious solution is to remove the ability of churches to marry people. Everyone gets married by a civil registrar and if they choose to have a church service as well then that's their choice.
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Roy Hunter on Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:42 pm

First thing: the law on equal marriage currently relates to Scotland, not the UK. England and Wales are a bit behind in that, but they are getting there. Northern Ireland is still in the dark ages.

The Equality Act 2010 is UK-wide, it says that people must be treated equally regardless of their sexuality. Now we are re-defining other laws to make that work in practice. Registration of Marriage is a local authority responsibility, therefore devolved to Scotland, Scots law, Scottish legislation. With me so far?

A Roman Catholic priest can refuse to marry a (nominally) Roman Catholic couple who do not go to church, have kids out of wedlock and are covered in pentangle tattoos. Those are not 'Protected Characteristics' under the law. That is apparently OK, and it is the personal choice of the Priest. But a couple of devout, church-going RC men cannot get married at all in an RC church, even if the Priest says "Yes", because the Pope says "No". The problem that faces the RC Church is that doctrine says they cannot marry a gay couple, but the law says they cannot refuse to on the basis of their sexuality, because that is a 'Protected Characteristic' under the law. Hence the exemption.

Without the exemption,gay couples would be taking every Priest, every church, every Diocese in the country to court. And they would win. Whilst I am not against that idea, I am aware that it is bad politics for any government seeking re-election. But I also think the exemption sucks ass, and would like to make the point that not all religions live in the dark ages, and that the reason they require an exemption is not because they are a religion, it's because they are bigoted homophobic cretins. Wearing dresses. And spouting iron-age bollocks as if it had some relevance in the modern world. Which it doesn't.
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby daftbeaker on Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:46 pm

Roy Hunter wrote:First thing: the law on equal marriage currently relates to Scotland, not the UK. England and Wales are a bit behind in that, but they are getting there. Northern Ireland is still in the dark ages.

The Equality Act 2010 is UK-wide, it says that people must be treated equally regardless of their sexuality. Now we are re-defining other laws to make that work in practice. Registration of Marriage is a local authority responsibility, therefore devolved to Scotland, Scots law, Scottish legislation. With me so far?

No. But then I never follow precisely what differences in legal wording there are north of Gretna.
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Roy Hunter on Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:52 pm

daftbeaker wrote:No. But then I never follow precisely what differences in legal wording there are north of Gretna.
tl;dr version: Scotland is better than England.
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:59 pm

daftbeaker wrote: You wouldn't accept going into a government building and being told 'sorry, we can't renew your passport because you're straight, you'll have to go to the other building at the other end of the city', why should you accept the same thing with a marriage certificate?


Well no, but that's because the government is there for everyone, individual religious congregations aren't, necessarily. I would expect if going to the government for a marriage certificate/license, they would have to do it for me. But if I were gay, I can't imagine trying to go to a church that would not want to marry me to try to get married. Or even being a member of the congregation in the first place.

Okay, so I see how this is tied to the Equality Act... So who]/i] is required to treat people equally, regardless of their sexuality? Seems foreign to me that this kind of equality treatment would extend to church's policies of marriage, but that's probably because it is foreign. :haha:

Now, in the secular world of legislation I don't think the definition of marriage should be one man and one woman, but I could see the argument in which the marriage, as a religious practice, is defined as the church defines it, and it's not so much treating gay couples differently (as long as they are still welcome at all events, rituals, membership, as individuals, etc), because Catholic (or whatever) marriage simply wouldn't apply to them by definition, it couldn't happen.

But that's of course talking about the religious aspect of it. It gets more complicated when the churches or church officials are [i]simultaneously
acting as agents of the state, providing the legal union documents, etc. For instance, some clergy in America are now arguing that their religoius freedom is being infringed if they cannot legally marry their congregants.

I do see the daftbeakers solution might be simple, but like you say Roy, I think having the religious ceremony (potentially) also serve as the legal one is important.

The solution would seem to me finding some way to make it such that clergy can perform legal marriages, but they can refuse whoever for whatever reason. Of course, there's always the option of being married by the government, so even if every clergyperson refuses to marry a couple, they can get their equal, legal treatment. And in practice, if a church won't marry their congregants, those congregants can likely find another church to perform it for them, if they want. Or, if they're devoted Catholics, they'll campaign to have the church change it's policies (as such campaigns currently exist), and meanwhile they get married and have the same rights as anyone else in the eyes of the government.

Which... I'm pretty sure is how it works in American states with marriage equality, but I'm not sure exactly. I do know that churches saying "But they'll force us to marry teh gays!" is absurd in America, but I suppose that is what could happen in Scotland without the exemption?
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby daftbeaker on Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:15 pm

Qwertyuiopasd wrote:I do know that churches saying "But they'll force us to marry teh gays!" is absurd in America, but I suppose that is what could happen in Scotland without the exemption?

Hopefully. It would be worth it just for the sheer apoplectic strokes that would ensue. The right wing catholics would rather shut down childrens' homes than let gay couples adopt kids, just imagine how crazy they would get over having the gays in their churches :haha:
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Roy Hunter on Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:32 pm

They already have 'the gays' in their churches. They are made to feel inferior, sinners, second-class people. The RC church cannot stand that the law says that 'the gays' are in fact equal and should be treated as such. I mean, what's next? Women?
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Re: Pastafarian Wedding

Postby Cardinal Fang on Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:00 pm

daftbeaker wrote:Personally I can't see a religion getting anywhere if we don't start making arbitrary restrictions and hate figures. I nominate stringy cheese as unclean and people that stand in front of train doors as infidels.


I nominate people who talk at the theatre as also being in the category of infidels.

Of course in light of the 2nd IRRYD (2. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Use My Existence As A Means To Oppress, Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, And/Or, You Know, Be Mean To Others. I Don't Require Sacrifices, And Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People.), I would suggest that infidels are only subjected to being served slightly overcooked spaghetti rather than properly al dente pasta.

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