A Question from a Christian

[swickstrum]

The amazing thing to me, a Christian, is that anyone - Christian or non - would dedicate this much time to proving or disproving anything at all. What is leading you to do such? Just your "sense of humor (or humour, as the British – who, with such an irritating irreverence to real English continue to misspell this word…lol)?”

It seems to me that you are overly concerned with things that do not concern you. Let me ask you a question, please. If you do not care whether or not a person believes in God, and by God, I include the Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then why do you insist on driving people away from Him?

How can Jesus hurt the people who do not believe in Him? If you do not believe, then do not believe, fine. The problem with all this FSM mess is that you are leading people who may have become good and powerful Christians astray.

I was an atheist for a few years, and looked at all the theories, facts, and theories (I repeated the word twice, don’t think it was by accident) and the thing I found was that no one has a clue where we really came from. Yes, Darwin has great ideas, and those ideas have been perpetuated throughout the last century and a half to show more of the same. But the fact is, no one knows, and to be honest – the facts just DO NOT support evolution, and if you really look, with an open mind, you will see that what I say is true.

There are really no records of history that go beyond Biblical times, and I kept coming back to that fact. If we have been around for Millions (perhaps Billions) of years, where is the documentation, stone or otherwise? Why is it that over the last 2000 years our civilization has become so advanced… so advanced that I can type these words on a screen, as never before? I do not have an answer for these questions, nor does anyone – although someone surely thinks they do.

Back to my original question, in paragraph three, what is the reason for this whole movement? Why are some so concerned with what others believe…to the point of calling those who do believe in God idiots? Why is it offensive that there might be another possibility other than evolution? Are you not the “open-minded” people you claim to be? Can there be NO other possibility… really? Since there is no proof, do we have to limit our schools to one possibility; and not let the students decide? This is not math, there is not a law that tells us how exactly things work.

Oh, but science is so advanced now, we know what is going on…really? Scientists used to think that the earth was flat, scientists used to think that the sun rotated around the earth, scientists used to think that drilling into a human’s skull would help them work their problems out (as a matter of fact, the best group of scientists in the world gave Egas Moniz the Nobel Peace Prize for the Lobotomy in 1949…just 59 years ago). Oh how times have changed. What idiots we were, drilling into a skull…wow! But back in the 1800’s Darwin came up with evolution and that is still respected? We cannot prove nor disprove this flawed science.

The one thing older than 2000 years that science has never been able to prove, or DIS-prove is the existence of, creation by, and subsequent sacrifice of - God Himself, no matter how hard they try. And by the looks of this website, and others just like it…there have been those that have been trying VERY hard.

If you would like to read philosophical accounts of God’s existence – read Pascal, Kant, C.S. Lewis, or even Einstein. If you would like scientific accounts of God’s existence, sorry it can’t be done.

And this is where we get into the thing that the FSM creators have most made fun of… faith. And that’s fine. I was told I would be made fun of, I was told people would laugh; I was told I would be beaten, possibly stoned to death - for my belief in the Son of God. If all YOU can do is create a website, I can deal with that all day. Heck, I will post my picture, my family’s picture, my email, my phone number, my address, and my work address if that’s all you will do - create a funky little website called, “ The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.”

How awesome is that? I can tell you all that I believe, and all you will do is laugh at me and pat me on my little retarded shoulder while you wink at your friends. “He’s a stupid one.” You will say…“He really thinks there is a God…ha, ha.” And just leave me alone, right? We will see. I’m afraid the truth is I will be hated, mocked, made fun of, and threatened with violence.

But, I have faith in God; therefore I will test this theory. My name is Scott Wickstrum, and my email is swickstrum@yahoo.com. Let me know how you feel.

Finally, I would like to say this: Make fun all you like, but the Bible still cannot be disproven, and there are no other documents as revered – yet more thoroughly tried to be proven false - as the Bible. And IF…by the small chance (according to science) IF…the Bible IS the true Word of God – then read and contemplate these words… Romans 1:18 – 25 ------

And if you are truly open-minded, truly after knowledge, truly wanting to discover the truth… you will read this…if for no other reason than to make fun of it…otherwise, you are just as closed minded as the Christian idiots that you make fun of…

18For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them. 20For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. 21For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves. 25They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[Rosie]

The amazing thing to me, a Christian, is that anyone - Christian or non - would dedicate this much time to proving or disproving anything at all. What is leading you to do such?

The same thing that guides you to post bible verses on our board--faith. But in my case, it is faith in His Noodley Appendage, and his flawed yet beautiful creation of the universe.

May you one day see the light.
RAmen.

[fueledbycoffee]

I have to mention several points. We do have plenty of recorded history going well past the last 2000 years. I'm no History major, but surely you've heard of the cave paintings at Lascaux, as evidence for pre-Biblical history? Society didn't just suddenly start getting advanced 2000 years ago. It was a long, gradual process, over the course of thousands of years, much like Evolution. We started with the Australopithecus, moved on through the various ancestors, the Neanderthal, the Cro Magnon, getting more advanced, over thousands of thousands of years. Then societies began to pop up. Tribes in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia began coming together. Leaders laid down rules for their new "societies." I believe the oldest known "society" was the Sumarians. As they grew more advanced, they developed law. Hammurabi's code, for example. Society expanded outward, as other cultures were influenced by them. I don't know much after that, I'll admit. Ancient Middle-Eastern history is not my forte. But suffice to say, one thing lead to another, we had Rome, Babylon, Persia, Greece and so many other great cultures pop up. They were constantly advancing, constantly progressing. Greece supposedly had simple computers! They invented democracy thousands of years before the American revolution. Even in the Bible they talk about history up to at least 4000 years ago. But this is stuff that we know, if not 100%, pretty certainly. Nothing can be proven as absolute fact, but this is proven as well as can be, and it's got a lot more proof going for it than The Bible's version of events. The real thing has the evidence, and on top of that, it's even rather poetic.

You asked what you believing in God does to hurt us? Absolutely nothing! Believe away. The problem lies in believers not accepting the non-beliefs of others, and trying to inject religion into a school system where our children are exposed. Frankly, the number of people who want ID in schools are a vast minority, and in a country where majority rules, you guys are SOL. Well, not quite. You can home-school your kids, or send them to a religious school. It's up to you. As for equal treatment alongside other theories, that's fine, when you guys can present evidence for ID. Ken Miller, a biologist, and a Catholic, mentions that the Discovery Institute and other pro-ID organizations are spending virtually no time in the lab or in the field, but spending all of their time and money on PR. So as a result, ID has no scientific proof. Sure, look at the world! It's so complex only a designer could have made it! Look at the banana, how perfect is that? However, I ask you, where's the scientific method in that? "To be termed scientific a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning." (Wikipedia, Scientific Method) There's none of that going on with Creation Science. Until you guys start stepping up to the plate, you won't get anywhere.

So no, you believing in Jesus and all that is fine. I don't victimize Christians or any religious group. This website in particular has impressed me with it's inclusive attitude. I don't know what happened to him, but a priest showed up here a while back and everyone was very respectful. I'd say that's a far cry from the crazed heathens burning churches and raping nuns that we Atheists get portrayed as in the fundamentalist community. If you don't want us protesting your rallies, stop making those rallies about topics that affect us, and stop trying to put a theory that hasn't been been studied in schools, unless that school has a theology class.

I'll email this to you, in case you don't come back here.

[swickstrum]

Fueled…

First of all, I didn’t say “where is the history that dates pre-2000 years ago,” so you answering me that… “I have to mention several points. We do have plenty of recorded history going well past the last 2000 years, “ makes no sense what-so-ever.

My question was…again… There are really no records of history that go beyond Biblical times, and I kept coming back to that fact. If we have been around for Millions (perhaps Billions) of years, where is the documentation, stone or otherwise? Why is it that over the last 2000 years our civilization has become so advanced?

Key phrase here is, beyond Biblical times. Yes, we have the cave paintings, that no doubt were pre Christ, but pre – Noah…I think not. And if they were pre – Noah, fine, then not pre – Adam then. The fact is, Biblical scholars cannot decide on the date of the creation, so I do not wish to ask you, an admitted non-historian, to do such.

You mentioning the “Sumerians” seems silly with an argument about evolution. Sumerians showed up on the scene approximately 4000 B.C., which still fits in the Biblical timeline that is documented. Maybe you were thinking of something else, if so; feel free to email me again.

Hammurabi’s code came into play around 1800 B.C., no where near out of Biblical times, and if you were wondering, there were 282 laws in his list, much less than the 10 commandments Moses wrote down.

All of the other cultures you mentioned were either after the time of Jesus, or directly before. The Septuagint was written before Christ’s birth, and that was the Greek translation of the Old Testament. Which lends credence to my argument that we have advanced like never before in the past 2000 years, if we have indeed, been on the planet for millions of years, what hastened this last 2000 years of evolution? It is but a blink of an eye in the big picture according to the evolutionists, so why did it take thousands of years to get from “Cro-magnon” to human, and just 2000 years to get from Roman technology to where we are today?

Funny how you can believe that they “might have had little computers” even though there is absolutely no proof of that. By the way, the Greeks ruled shortly before the Romans, who, of course, were the ones in power when Christ was crucified. In fact, Cleopatra was Greek, just so you know. And the history of this we know falls in line completely with the Bible, which has never been proven to be historically inaccurate.

If me and my children believing in God does no more harm than you NOT believing in God, why then are the atheists, and FSM believers pushing their beliefs on us? We cannot say in school, that it is a POSSIBILITY, that God created us? We have to state as fact that the world has been around for billions of years? I’m just thinking that maybe we could put out the question that one or the other is true, let them decide.

As fare as ID having no scientific proof, it is obvious you did not do your research. I’ll look into it and get back to you tomorrow. I don’t think you really understand history at all really. Up until the mid 1900’s Creation was being taught in schools as an alternative (or even as a better theory than) to Evolution, but then people like you starting forcing God out of schools with the lame “Separation of Church & State” excuse, and that led to where we are now…God as an outlaw.

[fueledbycoffee]

Fueled…

First of all, I didn’t say “where is the history that dates pre-2000 years ago,” so you answering me that… “I have to mention several points. We do have plenty of recorded history going well past the last 2000 years, “ makes no sense what-so-ever.

My question was…again… There are really no records of history that go beyond Biblical times, and I kept coming back to that fact. If we have been around for Millions (perhaps Billions) of years, where is the documentation, stone or otherwise? Why is it that over the last 2000 years our civilization has become so advanced?

Key phrase here is, beyond Biblical times. Yes, we have the cave paintings, that no doubt were pre Christ, but pre – Noah…I think not. And if they were pre – Noah, fine, then not pre – Adam then. The fact is, Biblical scholars cannot decide on the date of the creation, so I do not wish to ask you, an admitted non-historian, to do such.

You're using the Bible as evidence for itself, which is downright bad science. The cave paintings could not possibly have existed before Adam because he was the first man, and thus, the first person capable of creating them. Well, unless you consider that Adam may be representative of the first Homo Sapiens, in which case they were most certainly pre-Adam. Either way, this argument is invalid. Besides, if we go by the Bible, I believe that it says that the world is only a few thousand years old. As the cave paintings are around 10,000 years old, I'd say that they're pre-Biblical. I'm not "deciding the date of creation," I'm simply regurgitating information that's been in the public sector for years.

You mentioning the “Sumerians” seems silly with an argument about evolution. Sumerians showed up on the scene approximately 4000 B.C., which still fits in the Biblical timeline that is documented. Maybe you were thinking of something else, if so; feel free to email me again.

All I said was that society advanced over many thousands of years, a little bit at a time, much like Evolution. It was not an argument for Evolution. I just mentioned in passing that it was like societies evolved, with "Society" being the subject of that statement, and the mention of Evolution being a mere flourish.

Hammurabi’s code came into play around 1800 B.C., no where near out of Biblical times, and if you were wondering, there were 282 laws in his list, much less than the 10 commandments Moses wrote down.

All of the other cultures you mentioned were either after the time of Jesus, or directly before. The Septuagint was written before Christ’s birth, and that was the Greek translation of the Old Testament. Which lends credence to my argument that we have advanced like never before in the past 2000 years, if we have indeed, been on the planet for millions of years, what hastened this last 2000 years of evolution? It is but a blink of an eye in the big picture according to the evolutionists, so why did it take thousands of years to get from “Cro-magnon” to human, and just 2000 years to get from Roman technology to where we are today?

Because from Cro Magnon to Homo Sapiens was an evolution from one species to another, and all we've been doing for the last few thousand years was taking what we learned and applying it. I'm sure you can see how going from a different species to another is different from having an idea and making it work.

Funny how you can believe that they “might have had little computers” even though there is absolutely no proof of that. By the way, the Greeks ruled shortly before the Romans, who, of course, were the ones in power when Christ was crucified. In fact, Cleopatra was Greek, just so you know. And the history of this we know falls in line completely with the Bible, which has never been proven to be historically inaccurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

The Antikythera Mechanism is believed to be a very early precursor to the computer.

I'm aware that most of these cultures existed within the timespan of the Bible. I simply named them to demonstrate how our culture has been constantly evolving from the "cave man" to modern times, rather than the light bulb suddenly going off and saying "Holy Crap! Uggbug, drop your club and put on a suit, we need Wall Street!" As for the Bible, it's never been proven to be particularly inaccurate, but it's also never been proven to be true. For example, where's any historical mention of Sodom and Gomorrah? They can't be found, right? God wiped them from the face of the Earth. However, two massive, wealthy cities would surely have had some sort of trade, or other contact with other cultures, and be mentioned in their writings, but no. Not one mention outside of the Bible.

If me and my children believing in God does no more harm than you NOT believing in God, why then are the atheists, and FSM believers pushing their beliefs on us? We cannot say in school, that it is a POSSIBILITY, that God created us? We have to state as fact that the world has been around for billions of years? I’m just thinking that maybe we could put out the question that one or the other is true, let them decide.

Sure you can. My friends and I had religious debates all of the time. The issue with school is that a teacher is in a position of power, and they might (might, not will) abuse that power converting children to their religion. I'm sure you would take issue if a teacher was teaching your young child about Wicca or Islam. All we are saying is that religion is personal, and can't be taught in public school, which everyone pays for, so nobody should get preference over anyone else. It's not as though we're in schools telling kids there's no God. We simply aren't having them taught that there is one. It's your job, as a parent, to pass on your religion, not the state.

As fare as ID having no scientific proof, it is obvious you did not do your research. I’ll look into it and get back to you tomorrow. I don’t think you really understand history at all really. Up until the mid 1900’s Creation was being taught in schools as an alternative (or even as a better theory than) to Evolution, but then people like you starting forcing God out of schools with the lame “Separation of Church & State” excuse, and that led to where we are now…God as an outlaw.

If ID has proof, as it's defender, it's your responsibility to present it. And as I said, I'm no history major. However, as I see it, what you're really saying is that my understanding of history isn't to your liking. As for the rest, I had nothing to do with "forcing religion out of schools." After all, I'm only 21. You also have to wonder if maybe, just maybe, there was a legitimate reason, uncolored by personal bias, that lead to Evolution becoming the more popular theory. Separation of church and state has always been a vital ingredient to our democracy, and our freedom of and from religion, ensuring that one religion did not become the state religion. Religion, whatever it is, is personal. It belongs in the home, or in church. What your saying has been said before, even by my mother, and in fact sounds to me like no more than the old King being removed from his throne, and yelling at the new guy to get off his chair. I look forward to your response.

[spotlight]

Just a few remarks -

The amazing thing to me, a Christian, is that anyone - Christian or non - would dedicate this much time to proving or disproving anything at all. What is leading you to do such?

Well, if you happened upon what you believe is a deliberate and enormous political cover-up in, say, Nepal, wouldn't you want the world to know? Even if it doesn't directly have an impact on you? And if the government vehemently denied it, but you *know* that what you're saying is true, wouldn't you still want to spread the word out?

the lame “Separation of Church & State” excuse, and that led to where we are now…God as an outlaw.

Here's an interesting post on Separation of Church and State here, if you want to give it a read.

Let me ask you a question, please. If you do not care whether or not a person believes in God, and by God, I include the Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then why do you insist on driving people away from Him?

I think the concept of a Flying Spaghetti Monster can very easily be used to respond to that type of argument. I don't wish to sound facetious, but simply replace God with FSM and ......

If you would like to read philosophical accounts of God’s existence – read Pascal, Kant, C.S. Lewis, or even Einstein.

I'm being nitpicky here, but Einstein was, as far as I know, agnostic. As are many Pastafarians (according to one topic here).

Thanks for being, for the most part, reasonable in your argument. At least you don't seem like a raving fundie. Just one last thought - why do you put your faith in Jesus? I'm rather curious about this. How does someone arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is his saviour? It is one theory, after all. Just like evolution is one theory explaining the existence of mankind - intelligent design is another. Why is the null hypothesis to the Jesus theory so unlikely for you?

[Zankou 2.0]

I'm sorry, I stopped readig after you referred to your fucked up spelling of "humour" as "proper".

May teh FSM have mercy on your wayward soul.

[Rosie]

and that led to where we are now…God as an outlaw.

I feel your pain. His chosen pirates are also cast as outlaws. We should lobby to get the history books to change that. They say there's no "evidence" of our good-natured pirates, or their connection with global warming--HAH! They simply refuse to look at the evidence.

[Spector567]

I'd like to to swickstrum for providing this forum with something we lack. An intelligent disagreement. You took time, effort and care with your initial post as well as your response. This is a welcome change from some of the other responses this forum has received. I hope you continue to post with equal care, intelligence and an even keel. While I do disagree with you I find this a welcome opportunity to learn about both sides of the issue and I hope you take the same away with you from the discussions.

It is doubtful you'll convert us and doubtful we'll convert you but the idea of a discussion isn't always to prove that you are right and the other person is wrong but to understand the issues involved.

[Rosie]

I also agree that we must not look too closely at cave paintings. Since they aren't in any actual "language" they don't really count.
People clearly did not make cave paintings. They were made by His Noodly Appendage as a means of testing our faith. Honestly, how else could they have gotten there?

[Artec]

Ok totally of topic, but what does:

Romans 1:18 – 25

mean?

Because I have never seen anything like this in the bible. Or at least not in the bibles I have red for school....
But that's probably because they were child bibles.

[Zankou 2.0]

Ok totally of topic, but what does:

Romans 1:18 – 25

mean?

Because I have never seen anything like this in the bible. Or at least not in the bibles I have red for school....
But that's probably because they were child bibles.

The Bible is split into Books, Chapters, and Verses.

He is citing a quote from the first Chapter of Paul's Letter to the Romans, and teh quote is verses 18 through 25.

Flip open your Bible to Romans, in the New Testament, then find the first chapter, then find the little number 18 located in the text.

[Apostateabe]

swickstrum, just how do you decide what do you believe? Do you decide your beliefs through evidence? The first part of your post would seem to indicate that approach. Or do you decide your beliefs because of religious faith? The second part of your post would tell me such. Perhaps it is both? I will tell you the way I decide my beliefs: evidence. That is all. If you have looked at the evidence for evolution and you found it sorely lacking, that is a bit weird. I only started to believe evolution when I looked at the evidence (I was brought up a young-Earth creationist). It wasn't authoritarian ideological assertions. The evidence is there -- the universal nested hierarchy of species confirmed by DNA, the fossils of so many intermediate forms, the atavisms, the vestiges, the confirmed mechanisms of variation and natural selection and speciation -- it is all there. And it is extremely compelling. I wish it were more accessible to the public. But I would be glad to lead you through the evidence, whatever you might be curious about. Just send me a private message.

[Cardinal Fang]

Okay, first things first - hey!

Just your "sense of humor (or humour, as the British – who, with such an irritating irreverence to real English continue to misspell this word…lol)?”

Us Brit's don't have an "irreveverence to Real English" - it's the Americans who can't do "proper" English (hence why it's called English rather than American - because it comes from England). Saying that, as language is constantly evolving all the time, who is to say what is proper.

Now on to real things. Let's deal with things an issue at a time.

We are not trying to "drive people away from God". The whole FSM issue is designed as a way of preventing pseudo-science and religious doctrine that promotes a particular interpretation of that religion, from entering the science classroom. Only established, rigorously tested scientific theory should be in the science classroom.

Creationism is a particular interpretation of Christian belief that says that the only acceptable reading of the bible is a literal one, even if that reading goes against facts clearly observable to people (BTW, St. Augustine or Hippo, one of the Fathers of the Christian church warned in The Literal Interpretation of Genesis against doing just this. He wrote that the bible was allagorical and that that a literal reading of Genesis could obscure the deeper meaning. He also warned that palpably illogical readings of Scripture could bring Christianity into disrepute among intelligent unbelievers).

We do not say people should not believe. We are saying that faith and reason are 2 separate things. As a theist, I believe that they are both gifts divinely given. Likewise we are not leading people astray. If you're faith is strong, what have you got to worry about?

There are really no records of history that go beyond Biblical times, and I kept coming back to that fact. If we have been around for Millions (perhaps Billions) of years, where is the documentation, stone or otherwise?

Well actually there are. Others have mentioned cave paintings, but there is also oral tradition. If people have no written word, history is passed down verbally, and if this is your only record, then it tends to remain surprisingly accurate. Remember that many of the early stories in the Bible derive not from written records but from oral histories.

There is another issue. We don't necessarily need documentary evidence to show us truth. We all know that the sun is mostly composed of helium and hydrogen, and is powered by nuclear fusion, but we don't have a vast "users manual" to read from telling us that. Neither has anyone visited the sun or brought back samples, so we have no direct testable product. Yet we can determine its composition and workings from the evidence it leaves in the radiation spectrum - how sunlight refracts for example showed the existence of helium 2 decades before it was discovered on Earth.

Moving on to evolution. You say that the facts do not support evolution. In fact they do. Evolution is probably one of the most tested scientific theories there is. It is confirmed by millions of pieces of evidence from paleontology, molecular biology, genetics, anthropolgy, microbiology, geology - even physics. Every time a new fossil is found, it tests evolution. Every time there is the emergence of a new strain of antibiotic resistance bacteria, it tests evolution. Evolution hasn't survived over 150 years by being grounded on shaky information. Possibly what you mean is the facts don't convince you. Personal increduality is not grounds to discard long established scientific fact.

Okay... the existence of God. You are right that science cannot prove (or disprove) the existence of God. That is because science is about finding natural explanations to natural phenomena. God by very definition is supernatural - he is outside of nature and therefore of course the existence of the divine is outside of the remit of scientific enquiry. Which raises this point - as evolution is a scientific theory, it cannot by definition have any bearing on the existence (or not) of God. There are both militant atheists and religious conservatives who have got this wierd idea that evolution somehow excludes the existence of God (Creationist and Richard Dawkins for example - different ends of the argument, surprisingly similar beliefs). If God is everything and everywhere, why can he not be directing evolution unseen, or for that matter, considering He made the universe and all the physical and chemical laws it runs by, is it not possible that he chooses to work within the bound of those laws? In which case, evolution is perfectly compatible with belief in God.

Next... the Bible. Can the Bible be disproven? Some of it can be. A literal creation of the world in 6 days - definately. Geology and radioisotopes show that the Earth was formed over millions of years. But then again, the Bible is not a scientific document anyway that needs to be proven or disproven. If we accept St Augustine's contention that it is allegorical, and should provide spiritual comfort rather than absolute truth, then why try to disprove it in the first place?

Please bear in mind: The Bible in its current form is a document compiled by the Council of Nicea in 397 AD. Early versions of the Bible are different to the one in existence now. The Codex Sinaiticus, dating from the 5th Century for example contains 2 extra books in the New Testament and missed certain verses about the Crucifixion and resurrection (for example, in the Codex, Jesus does not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"). Even between different Christian sects the Bible varies - Catholics and Protestants use different versions. The Eastern Orthodox Churches use a different one again, the Ethiopian ones a different one again. Likewise the Syriac Orthodox Church.

Yes there are those here who are atheists and who call people who believe in God "idiots" just as we have vast numbers of people of faith coming to this site to insult us (BTW Kudos to you for not doing that, but instead trying to have a sensible discussion). Likewise there are many agnoistics, people of religion, and people like me who are theists - i.e. we believe there is a divine power but we don't have a specific religion (in case you're wondering, it is in part because of evolution that I think there is a higher power). Apologies though if you've been hurt by some of the comment by some of our athiest brethren. This board is inclusive in its membership and those the believe in the divine and those who don't are equally welcome.

Finally, you've asked to be open minded. May I return the question? I sense from your posts that you believe that science and faith cannot co-exist. I (and to be honest, most people) don't believe that. Could I suggest reading Dr. Kenneth Miller's book Finding Darwin's God: A Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution. As both a scientist and a devout Catholic, he shows that there need not be conflict between faith and science.

CF

P.S. If you want to carry on the debate, my e-mail address is at the bottom.

[Elvalia]

I'm sorry, I stopped readig after you referred to your fucked up spelling of "humour" as "proper".

May teh FSM have mercy on your wayward soul.

I didn't stop reading, but you're right, so very right.

Small point, but I thought I'd say it:

In fact, Cleopatra was Greek, just so you know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra
Wiki says that she was born in Alexandria, making her Egyptian by birth at least, if not by blood. Unless, of course, I'm mistaken. Don't hesitate to call me out on it if I am. As I said, it's a small point.