Headstones for pastafarian veterans

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Postby MPTrooper on Wed May 09, 2007 2:06 pm

Do keep in mind that you can get whatever you want on a CIVILIAN cemetery so long as whoever owns it will let you (I think)

Military Cemeteries are much stricter in what you can have as a tombstone.
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Postby Duke on Wed May 09, 2007 2:12 pm

MPTrooper wrote:Do keep in mind that you can get whatever you want on a CIVILIAN cemetery so long as whoever owns it will let you (I think)

Military Cemeteries are much stricter in what you can have as a tombstone.


Yep, I know that. I'm just wondering if us existentialists have a symbol. Maybe I should make one...


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Postby EarthRise on Wed May 09, 2007 6:20 pm

Duke wrote:Do existentialists have a symbol? If so, that's what I would want on my tombstone.


Only if you want it to exist :fsm_rock:
[...] the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
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Postby Duke on Wed May 09, 2007 7:54 pm

Okay, okay. I will make one. :mrgreen:


Duke
"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards."

--Mark Twain


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

--Friedrich Nietzsche


"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever."

--Woody Allen
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Postby Rev. Rowan Redbeard on Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:59 pm

What about the agnostics? Shouldn't they be allowed to have a question mark on the headstone?
—Captain the Reverend Lord C.S. Rowan, Lord of Glencoe, Minister of Pastafarianism, Gentleman Pirate

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Postby MPTrooper on Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:25 pm

Rowan Redbeard wrote:What about the agnostics? Shouldn't they be allowed to have a question mark on the headstone?


For the love of God, what is it with people and raiseing the dead?

If it's a military tombstone, then no.
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Postby Sheylara on Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:30 pm

Rowan Redbeard wrote:What about the agnostics? Shouldn't they be allowed to have a question mark on the headstone?

I LOVE THIS IDEA.

Why are agnostics left out in this party?

Then again, since I'm neither in the military or government service, it's irrelevant, lol.
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Postby wags on Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:26 pm

Okay, I'll play: I believe that if you are/were in the military or gov't service, you should be able to put whatever religious/non-religious symbol on your tombstone that you want (I'm referring to military/gov't cemetaries). If you want a picture of a flying pig on your gravestone, nobody should be able to dispute it. You served your country, earned the right to be buried in a military cemetary, and should be able to display whatever idol/image you want. If one person wants a question mark on their stone, so be it... if they want a picture of the FSM... great! Why should anyone be able to deny them that... it would be persecution based on faith and/or beliefs.

Before anyone gets up-in-arms and tries to yell at me: I am a former US Air Force veteran who served in both OEF and OIF, and have nothing but the deepest respect for anyone who has ever served... to include GS/GGs and contractors (I currently fall in the latter category).
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Postby MPTrooper on Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:28 pm

wags wrote:Okay, I'll play: I believe that if you are/were in the military or gov't service, you should be able to put whatever religious/non-religious symbol on your tombstone that you want (I'm referring to military/gov't cemetaries). If you want a picture of a flying pig on your gravestone, nobody should be able to dispute it. You served your country, earned the right to be buried in a military cemetary, and should be able to display whatever idol/image you want. If one person wants a question mark on their stone, so be it... if they want a picture of the FSM... great! Why should anyone be able to deny them that... it would be persecution based on faith and/or beliefs.

Before anyone gets up-in-arms and tries to yell at me: I am a former US Air Force veteran who served in both OEF and OIF, and have nothing but the deepest respect for anyone who has ever served... to include GS/GGs and contractors (I currently fall in the latter category).


If you served then you should know that Military order and discipline are paramount anywhere we have a presence, this includes Military Cemtary's

I don't know about you, but I think Arlington wouldn't look the same if the order and discipline shown in its ordered headstones was upset by a group of people putting up unauthorized head stones.

After all, cemertaries are for the liveing, not for the dead.
MPTrooper
 

Postby Rev. Rowan Redbeard on Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:09 pm

MPTrooper wrote:
I don't know about you, but I think Arlington wouldn't look the same if the order and discipline shown in its ordered headstones was upset by a group of people putting up unauthorized head stones.

After all, cemertaries are for the liveing, not for the dead.


I don't think this is about putting up special headstones. It is about having a headstone that represents both the individual and the armed forces.

If it is really about uniformity, why don't we just put the cross on all of them? They would all look alike, in perfect order. Or why not forbid all symbols. Again, perfect order.

There are currently 39 approved religious/spiritual/philosophical symbols that can go on government provided headstones.

If it is a matter of putting a symbol on a specific area of the headstone, why can't we allow any symbol that speaks to spirituality, belief, philosophy, or non-belief? The symbols would be all the same size, and all in the same place. Again, perfect order.

Here's what is currently offered.

http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp wrote:
01
CHRISTIAN CROSS
02
BUDDHIST (Wheel of Righteousness)
03
JUDAISM (Star of David)
04
PRESBYTERIAN CROSS
05
RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CROSS
06
LUTHERAN CROSS
07
EPISCOPAL CROSS
08
UNITARIAN CHURCH/UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST ASSOCIATION
09
UNITED METHODIST CHURCH
10
AARONIC ORDER CHURCH
11
MORMON (Angel Moroni)
12
NATIVE AMERICAN CHURCH OF NORTH AMERICA
13
SERBIAN ORTHODOX
14
GREEK CROSS
15
BAHAI (9 Pointed Star)
16
ATHEIST
17
MUSLIM (Crescent and Star)
18
HINDU
19
KONKO-KYO FAITH
20
COMMUNITY OF CHRIST
21
SUFISM REORIENTED
22
TENRIKYO CHURCH
23
SEICHO-NO-IE
24
CHURCH OF WORLD MESSIANITY (Izunome)
25
UNITED CHURCH OF RELIGIOUS SCIENCE
26
CHRISTIAN REFORMED CHURCH
27
UNITED MORAVIAN CHURCH
28
ECKANKAR
29
CHRISTIAN CHURCH
30
CHRISTIAN & MISSIONARY ALLIANCE
31
UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST
32
HUMANIST EMBLEM OF SPIRIT
33
PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH (USA)
34
IZUMO TAISHAKYO MISSION OF HAWAII
35
SOKA GAKKAI INTERNATIONAL - USA
36
SIKH (KHANDA)
37
WICCA (Pentacle)
97
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST (Cross & Crown)
98
MUSLIM (Islamic 5 Pointed Star)

No graphics (logos, symbols, etc.) are permitted on Government-furnished headstones or markers other than the approved emblems of belief, the Civil War Union Shield, the Civil War Confederate Southern Cross of Honor, and the Medal of Honor insignias.
—Captain the Reverend Lord C.S. Rowan, Lord of Glencoe, Minister of Pastafarianism, Gentleman Pirate

By reading this post, you agree that you are solely responsible for your reaction to it.
The poster takes no responsibility for any offense taken where none was meant.
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Postby MPTrooper on Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:35 pm

Rowan Redbeard wrote:
MPTrooper wrote:
I don't know about you, but I think Arlington wouldn't look the same if the order and discipline shown in its ordered headstones was upset by a group of people putting up unauthorized head stones.

After all, cemertaries are for the liveing, not for the dead.


I don't think this is about putting up special headstones. It is about having a headstone that represents both the individual and the armed forces.

If it is really about uniformity, why don't we just put the cross on all of them? They would all look alike, in perfect order. Or why not forbid all symbols. Again, perfect order.

There are currently 39 approved religious/spiritual/philosophical symbols that can go on government provided headstones.

If it is a matter of putting a symbol on a specific area of the headstone, why can't we allow any symbol that speaks to spirituality, belief, philosophy, or non-belief? The symbols would be all the same size, and all in the same place. Again, perfect order.

Here's what is currently offered.

http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp wrote:
01
CHRISTIAN CROSS
02
BUDDHIST (Wheel of Righteousness)
03
JUDAISM (Star of David)
04
PRESBYTERIAN CROSS
05
RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CROSS
06
LUTHERAN CROSS
07
EPISCOPAL CROSS
08
UNITARIAN CHURCH/UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST ASSOCIATION
09
UNITED METHODIST CHURCH
10
AARONIC ORDER CHURCH
11
MORMON (Angel Moroni)
12
NATIVE AMERICAN CHURCH OF NORTH AMERICA
13
SERBIAN ORTHODOX
14
GREEK CROSS
15
BAHAI (9 Pointed Star)
16
ATHEIST
17
MUSLIM (Crescent and Star)
18
HINDU
19
KONKO-KYO FAITH
20
COMMUNITY OF CHRIST
21
SUFISM REORIENTED
22
TENRIKYO CHURCH
23
SEICHO-NO-IE
24
CHURCH OF WORLD MESSIANITY (Izunome)
25
UNITED CHURCH OF RELIGIOUS SCIENCE
26
CHRISTIAN REFORMED CHURCH
27
UNITED MORAVIAN CHURCH
28
ECKANKAR
29
CHRISTIAN CHURCH
30
CHRISTIAN & MISSIONARY ALLIANCE
31
UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST
32
HUMANIST EMBLEM OF SPIRIT
33
PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH (USA)
34
IZUMO TAISHAKYO MISSION OF HAWAII
35
SOKA GAKKAI INTERNATIONAL - USA
36
SIKH (KHANDA)
37
WICCA (Pentacle)
97
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST (Cross & Crown)
98
MUSLIM (Islamic 5 Pointed Star)

No graphics (logos, symbols, etc.) are permitted on Government-furnished headstones or markers other than the approved emblems of belief, the Civil War Union Shield, the Civil War Confederate Southern Cross of Honor, and the Medal of Honor insignias.



So what's the problem? By controlling what is and is not allowed on their headstones, the military IS keeping order to THEIR cemeteries.

Remember, you don't have to be buried in Alrington if you don't want to be.
MPTrooper
 

Postby Rev. Rowan Redbeard on Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:43 pm

The problem is separation of church and state.

If they allow symbols for some denominations, they ought to allow symbols for all denominations. They don't.

Since they allow symbols of philosophical standpoints that comment on the religious belief of the soldier buried there (even if those beliefs are regarding religion, and not about a specific religion) they ought to allow symbols for all philosophical standpoints on religion.

Otherwise, it amounts to the government recognizing only specific religious viewpoints as valid to hold.
—Captain the Reverend Lord C.S. Rowan, Lord of Glencoe, Minister of Pastafarianism, Gentleman Pirate

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The poster takes no responsibility for any offense taken where none was meant.
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Postby Almighty Doer of Stuff on Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:58 pm

I don't know about you, but when I die I want my skull removed and painted gaudy colors, and the rest of me used for reforestation fertilizer. My mother says otherwise and I don't have a will or the knowledge of how to make one, so I guess that won't happen if I die in my sleep tonight.

But if I were to have a headstone, I would want the FSM design from the Ring Of Fire store's FSM belt buckle. I like that one. In fact maybe I'll buy it. Couldn't hurt to have a couple choices of belt buckle for my new belt.
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Postby wags on Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:56 am

"If you served then you should know that Military order and discipline are paramount anywhere we have a presence, this includes Military Cemtary's

I don't know about you, but I think Arlington wouldn't look the same if the order and discipline shown in its ordered headstones was upset by a group of people putting up unauthorized head stones.

After all, cemertaries are for the liveing, not for the dead."

You've made my point for me: "unauthorized head stones"... I'm saying that no religious/belief emblem should be unauthorized. You also state that cemetaries are for the living... if the interned member's family also shares his/her beliefs, then why should they not be able to see their loved one's chosen symbol. All headstones in Arlington are similar in size, shape and color... the words and emblems on them are personal. This would not interrupt the military bearing, order or discipline. I still work with the military, and we all have little quotes on our signature blocks when we send emails at work. One popular one that I think says it all is: 'I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it'. This should apply to a member's choice to place the picture of a rubber ducky on their headstone in Arlington.
Grab my wrist....
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Postby Calena on Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:04 am

I have learned today that there is a "UNITED CHURCH OF RELIGIOUS SCIENCE ". Interessting. If they believe in ID?

On Topic:
I think if the military wants a certain order in their cementeries, it's a great idea to specify the location and dimensions of the symbols, but what symbol it is should be entirely up to the deceased (if he has specified what he wants during his lifetime) or his family.
Ambrose Biercedefines the verb "to pray": "to ask that the laws of the universe be anulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy"
http://www.fecundity.com/pmagnus/greedo.html
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