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Postby kaioshin00 on Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:18 pm

My family is Sikh.
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Postby teripie on Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:26 pm

kaioshin00 wrote:My family is Sikh.

Is that like in "Bend it Like Beckham?" That was the first glimpse I've had of anything like Sikh. I mean, detailed glimpse. I thought it was cool. If it was Sikh.
Good movie too.
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Postby kaioshin00 on Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:26 pm

That would be it, if I remember correctly.

But I believe its cooler to believe in the True Noodly Creator :fsm_rock:
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Postby lei on Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:49 pm

mom was raised a jew, dad raised greek orthodox, both rejected that stuff, encouraged me to roll my own.

before i found the FSM i classified myself as some kind of zen pagan who believes that god is within, the universe is rules and it's crazy, and love is the answer. yes i'm part hippie and i worship trees and the ocean and most of all kittycats. but when i'm recovered from major surgery i plan to resume heavy metal headbanging like there's no tomorrow.
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Postby Tatiana on Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:56 am

I'm Mormon, with some bits of other stuff thrown into the mix. :fsm_cool:
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Postby lei on Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:44 am

Auntie Dee Dee wrote:Lei,

Let us know when your surgery is, so we can all send our Piratey thoughts to steal the pain and speed your recovery!!

Positive thoughts are good, Piratey thoughts are better!!

:mrgreen:



sweet Auntie,

thank you so much for your kind post! it was just over a month ago but it was a doozy. i'll be okay but it's gonna take a lot more time to heal, so i still really appreciate your Piratey thoughts!!! :D :fsm_yarr:

and since the topic came up i can share a funny religion story with all. the hospital was good except it was adventist and there were these paintings of this bearded guy in a white robe and sunlight all about. at one point pre-surgery a nurse was doing a very thorough questionnaire and she asked if i had spiritual beliefs and wanted to talk to someone. i paused thoughtfully, realized i didn't see any pirates around, so i just answered, "uhm, it would be too hard to explain." she seemed relieved and said, "that's okay".

if she'd upped my painkillers i probably would have tried a conversion. i can just imagine her talking to the other nurses about the "drugged silliness" she just heard, "something about a beer volcano and strippers..."

:fsm_glee:
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Postby lei on Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:11 am

Auntie dear,

oy.

just sending my good piratey thoughts to you too.

[insert noodly hug emoticon here.]
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Postby Murtz on Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:28 pm

When I was a little kid, we had to learn the ten commandments and various Christian stuff at school. I also had a lot of Christian friends, and I still do. For a while I even considered myself Christian, up to a couple of years ago (I'm 19 now). But I was beginning to feel some doubts, and decided to figure out what I really believed. Read lots of articles and various stuff, and came to the conclusion that I was, in fact, not Christian.

So now I am an atheist. Oops.. Pastafarian I mean, of course :wink:
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Postby _Tex_ on Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:20 am

i was raised by atheist parents but sent to a Christian school, i had won a scholarship and everyone felt it would be a better education. Mostly due to my inherent anti- establishment, anti- authoritarian predisposition i became a Pagan. I was a non- specific Celtic Pagan for a while till I found a book on the Druidic practises. I am an Ovate in the OBOD. I still believe but am non practising. I dont really have much interest in practising as i think ritual is inherently needless and like beliefs to simply be something I carry inside myself.

Being that the observances of Patafarianism are something i did regularly anyway, i find it an easy thing to keep up. Praise FSM for making the one true faith easy to follow. And for the Flimsy Moral Standards as well.
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Postby Capellini on Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:31 am

Another Celt? What are the odds?

Although I'm a Celtic Reconstructionist, not a Druid, but still, similarity abounds!
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Postby _Tex_ on Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:51 am

well, being an international forum i would have said the odds were fairly high miss capellini.

I'm not looking for a debate here (possibly later, I'm just too tired right now) but I must say that I have to disagree with some of what you were saying earlier about christians using pagan holidays, I would say that it was obvious, and that the majority of christianity is plageurised from other religions. Funny how every single one of their holidays and feasts falls on the same day (or so damn close it aint funny) as a Pagan festival. It is a control mechanism. Same as their building churches on sites where pagan gathering had happened. If you were to tour the UK you quite frequently come across a church in the middle of nowhere. No houses nor towns nearby. By building on a Pagan site they forced the Pagans to go inside their churches. Until the catholic church had extended its sphere of influence to the UK very little if any importance was put on Mary. Once in the UK they realised that they had no hope of converting anyone if there was no female 'godhead' in their Pantheon (yes I am using these words very loosely, but the whole Father, Son, Holy Spirit plus Mary and various Saints does look very much like a Pantheon from the outside doesnt it?) For a religion that espouses "no graven idols" they certainly do worship a lot of statues of people other than Jesus.
I did have an actual train of thought here, a list of things to say but in the rambling it sort of got misplaced. I dont think I have actually managed to refute what you said. Oh well. maybe next time I log in I will be more awake....
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Postby Capellini on Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:11 pm

_Tex_ wrote:well, being an international forum i would have said the odds were fairly high miss capellini.

I'm not looking for a debate here (possibly later, I'm just too tired right now) but I must say that I have to disagree with some of what you were saying earlier about christians using pagan holidays, I would say that it was obvious, and that the majority of christianity is plageurised from other religions. Funny how every single one of their holidays and feasts falls on the same day (or so damn close it aint funny) as a Pagan festival. It is a control mechanism. Same as their building churches on sites where pagan gathering had happened. If you were to tour the UK you quite frequently come across a church in the middle of nowhere. No houses nor towns nearby. By building on a Pagan site they forced the Pagans to go inside their churches. Until the catholic church had extended its sphere of influence to the UK very little if any importance was put on Mary. Once in the UK they realised that they had no hope of converting anyone if there was no female 'godhead' in their Pantheon (yes I am using these words very loosely, but the whole Father, Son, Holy Spirit plus Mary and various Saints does look very much like a Pantheon from the outside doesnt it?) For a religion that espouses "no graven idols" they certainly do worship a lot of statues of people other than Jesus.
I did have an actual train of thought here, a list of things to say but in the rambling it sort of got misplaced. I dont think I have actually managed to refute what you said. Oh well. maybe next time I log in I will be more awake....


This is a big can of worms, sure you wanna open it? Ok, here goes.

First of all, when Christianity was developing, there were no Pagan holidays. The word pagan (little p) was used by the recently Christianized Roman soldiers to identify the folks in the rural pagus areas, who were incidentally not yet converted, and was eventually used to refer to non-Christians. Not until recently (certainly no earlier than the Victorian age) were people actively calling themselves Pagan (big P). The pagan (little p) holidays you speak of are more accurately labeled local indigineous holidays. And yes, Christianity often took advantage of those holidays to convert people, by structuring its own celebrations around them. Until the religion became more structurally organized in Rome, however, this was a regional thing, done primarily by the 'missionary' types in the area. However, it is inaccurate to say that Christianity stole this holidays, for a number of reasons. Religion being like most any social construct, it evolves from those things that came before it. Most of the things that mark Christianity can be found in those religions in the area previous to it, including the polytheistic Egyptian religion, Mithraism, and Judaism. But this is really just a reflection of how the culture itself was evolving. Just because certain aspects of certain holidays are similar does not make them the same thing, and claiming theft is a bit inflammatory. Particularly when we keep in mind that in many areas this was a kind of syncretic faith that was actively participated in by willing locals as well as the Christians. Celtic Christianity is a classic example of this. Unfortunately, most of the examples used by people who claim Christianity stole holidays from pagans (little p) are based on false information. Easter is the prime example of that, as there is no record of a goddess Ostara, nor is there a record of a festival involving bunnies or eggs in the European/Norse/Anglo peoples that were supposedly stolen from. Christmas is another example. While it does take place within the time frame of the Roman festival Saturnalia, and certain interpretations can show that the types of things worshipped in these two festivals are similar, Christmas was not originally celebrated on that day, but was moved later. It was an obvious attempt to use a congruence of events to convert people, but since it was moved with much of its ritual structure intact, it was not an active attempt to steal a holiday. A more modern, and more easily understood example is Halloween. Very little of what we celebrate today on Halloween has any ties to the pagan (little p) celebrations of GB, generalized as Samhain, but accurately falling under a number of different titles, and rather they are remnants of folk culture that the people actively developed themselves during conversion from local faiths to Christianity, over a period of hundreds of years.

Suggesting stealing conveys an inaccurate image of what took place in much of Europe during conversion to Christianity. While violence was not a rare occurence, local peoples were not wholesale removed and replaced with Christians who then used there religious beliefs under a new name. Christianity grew and changed as it was absorbed by the people it was coming in contact with, and a mutual exchange of practices occured, until we got the melange we have today. The local people adapted Christianity to there own needs just as much as Christianity adapted itself to fit those needs. No one ever accuses converts of stealing from Christianity.

Religions evolve just like organism. Christianity didn't steal anything from pagan (little p) peoples any more than I stole any of my traits from a chimp.
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Postby Shoeman on Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:28 pm

I believe the term is cultural diffusion. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
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Postby _Tex_ on Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:32 am

Indeed Shoeman, cultural diffusion would seem to fit...
Miss Capellini-whilst i do agree that when two cultures meet there is a nautural form of assimilation, i dont agree that there was not wholesale 'borrowing' (if you prefer that to stealing). And your opening arguments are merely semantics, the end result is still the same regardless of the choice of words. Clearly some words are used rather loosely, such as Pagan and holiday or festival, used because these are the names we are used to giving things now, not because they are historically accurate.
I'm not entirely sure about the sentance "and claiming theft is a bit inflammatory". I assume this means you think that is a bad thing?? The Catholic Church has apologised for its having not spoken out against the Holocaust, having not tried to be more helpful to the Jews. And yet there are records that estimate (cos the people involved were less anal than Hitler and co) more people were killed during the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts than were in the Holocaust. This is not something the Church merely did not speak out against, this is something they purposefully started, something they condoned and led. Yet it is barely even acknowledged by them, let alone any kind of formal apology made, no admitting of wrong doing. So if some Catholic gets a little "inflamed" by my saying that their religion is actively made up from stolen parts of all the religions in the areas the church expanded into..... fuck em. Point to the bit cares.
Remember, although I used Celtic examples in my last post I am saying they (the 'Holy Roman See') did this with all religions they came across as they expanded. And I hate to say it but there was record of festivals involving eggs used as a symbol of new life. In Germany, Greece, pre christian Rome, and Nordic lands. According to some of the books I have there was a Teuton goddess named Eostre (various spellings used)
Unfortunately I have wind this up, there are some priests with torches and pitchforks on my front lawn... :twisted: j/k I have to go as I got a little too caught up in this and am now running late. I look forward to continuing this with you later.
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Postby Capellini on Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:51 am

Theft is the wrong word because it says someone came in and took something that was not their's against the will of those that had it, and that was the EXCEPTION, and not the rule.

Semantics is very important in this situation, and should not be dismissed lightly. I don't know from where you're coming on this matter, but from where I'm coming, what you call things and why is of tantamount importance.

This all still rests on the fact that similarity is not the same as stealing, and other than some holidays occuring on the same dates, there is no historical evidence to back the claims that certain specific holidays were stolen by Christianity.

If you actually want to argue that Christianity stole pagan holidays, you're going to have to provide specific examples.

This is an all-too-common argument from what many Pagans call the 'fluffy-bunny' section of Paganism, and like most of their arguments, it has no historical backing, but becomes very popular outside the community because they do a lot of shouting. They are the Christian fundies of Paganism.
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