Note: Christian theorizing, not Pastafarian

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Note: Christian theorizing, not Pastafarian

Postby Riki on Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:18 pm

Salvation by Faith Alone-or Faith and works

The doctrine of justification by faith alone goes back to Martin Luther,
one of the most influential of the Reformers. It was the result of his
over-reaction to the Catholicism he was raised in. Luther's favorite
book was Romans. As a priest in the Catholic church he was frustrated by
his attempts to be good enough to be saved. He realized he always fell
short of God's holiness. Through his studies, he realized he would
never be able to be good enough to earn his salvation, but instead, he
must depend on God's grace. From the book of Romans and Galatians, he
came to the conclusion that we are justified by faith and that no works
of any kind are involved in our salvation. Romans and Galatians teach we
are not justified by works of the law but this does not eliminate the
need of obedience. Luther's Catechism teaches, "We are justified and
saved by faith alone, without works... Our own works have nothing to do
with our justification." Luther's influence was so great that nearly
every denomination that has formed since his time has followed his
teaching of justification by faith alone. Just a few years after Luther
began his work in the early 1500's, John Calvin began the Presbyterian
church in 1534. "Justification is an act of God's free grace unto
sinners, in which he pardoneth all their sins... and received by faith
alone. " The Larger Catechism of the Presbyterian Church, In 1536,
King Henry VIII formed the Church of England (Episcopalians) "Wherefore,
that we are justified by faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and
very full of comfort." Book of Common Prayer, In the early 1600's the
Baptist denomination was formed."We believe the Scriptures teach that
the great gospel blessing which secures to such as believe in Him is
justification; that justification includes the pardon of sin, and the
promise of eternal life on principles of righteousness; that it is
bestowed... solely through faith in the Redeemer's blood. "The Hiscox
Standard Baptist Manual, In the 1700's the Methodists broke away from
the Church of England. "Wherefore, that we are justified by faith only
is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort." Discipline of
the Methodist Church

What Does The Bible Say? Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by
faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans
3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that
is in Christ Jesus, Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been
justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith
alone. If the book of Romans teaches that we are justified by faith,
the blood of Christ, God's grace, and works, why did Luther teach we
are justified by faith alone? Luther made another great error. He
misunderstood what the apostle Paul meant when he taught how we are not
justified by the works of the Law in the books of Romans (3:28) and
Galatians. For anyone to be justified by Law, they would have be
absolutely perfect so they could earn their salvation. Luther
understood this was not possible, but he overreacted and taught we do
not have to do anything but believe to be saved.

Because of his
misunderstanding of how we must be obedient although we cannot earn our
salvation, Luther rejected the book of James and called it a "straw
epistle" that did not belong in the Bible. He concluded this because
James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and
not by faith only." This contradicted what Luther believed, so instead
of changing what he believed, Luther rejected James, the brother of
Jesus!

Earning Salvation by Works - Romans 4:1-4 Abraham did not earn his
justification by his own works. To earn it, one must have perfect works
and in this, he and everyone else has failed. This is the type of works
referred to in verse 5. Otherwise the parable of the Talents in Matt.
25:14-30 and the judgment scene in Matt. 25:40-46 are meaningless. God
does not give us salvation because we have earned it. We all have sinned
and stand condemned before God. By His grace, God has provided a way
that we can be forgiven through the sacrifice of His Son. However, this
does not eliminate the need of our continued obedience! Man was meant
to work in the beginning before he sinned! Genesis 1:28 And God blessed
them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the
earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the
birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Genesis 2:15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the
garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. Forgiveness of sins
restores our fellowship with God, but does not eliminate our
responsibility to work! We have even more work to do now. Not only are
we to continue to rule over God's physical creation, we now have the job
of bringing others back into fellowship with God. In the first creation,
Adam would have been guilty of rebellion if he refused to do the work
assigned to him by God. Today, all Christians who have become a new
creation through Christ also are living lives of rebellion if they are
not busy in the work God has given us. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace
you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the
gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we
are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God
prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Titus 2:14 [Christ]
who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed
and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good
works. This is why the man with one talent was rejected. This
illustrates that no matter how much we have, everyone is responsible for
bearing fruit. Matthew 25:30 And cast out the worthless slave into the
outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of
teeth. John 15:2, 6 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He
takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may
bear more fruit. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as
a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the
fire, and they are burned.

The Book of Romans Teaches the Need of Obedience
Romans begins and ends with the need of the "obedience of the
faith", (Romans 1:5, 16:26).
It says wrath and indignation are coming
on those who "do not obey the truth", (Romans 2:8).
The Christians in
Rome were freed from sin because they "obeyed from the heart that form
of doctrine which was delivered you" (Romans 6:17-18).
One of Paul's
greatest accomplishments was to bring about "the obedience of the
Gentiles" (Romans 15:18).

Galatians Teaches We Are Not Saved by Works of the Law
Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by
the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even
we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we
might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law;
for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. The reason
for the failure of the Law - it required complete obedience - Gal.
3:10-13 Under the Law, when there was sin, there was no true forgiveness
- Heb. 10:1-4 We know about sin through the law, but there is no
forgiveness. Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will
be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. The
law provided the standard we are to live by, by everyone violated the
standard and became aware of their sinfulness. The weakness of the law
was that it provided no means of forgiveness. God provided a way we
could be justified by faith rather than by law. Our justification is not
by faith alone. We are justified by His grace and the blood of Jesus.
To this, nearly everyone will agree, but then they still say it is by
faith alone. The book of James is the biggest problem to those who teach
justification by faith alone. James is the only book in the Bible that
mentions the idea of justification by faith alone and James 2:24 says we
are not justified by faith alone.

The Context of James 2:24 - James presents a question: James 2:14 What
does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not
have works? Can faith save him?

Will faith apart from works save?
The answer is given in verses 15-26. James gives three arguments to
prove that faith alone is a dead faith (verses 14-20). Just as it does
no good to wish a needy person well unless we do something to relieve
his needs, faith apart from works is dead (verses 15-17). If someone
came to your door in the winter, wearing worn and thin clothing and
was hungry, would you tell them " I hope you find some food and
clothing soon", and then not help at all, how much would that help?
That's how much good faith apart from works does in our salvation.
In
verse 18, James shows that, apart from works, one can't prove he has
faith (verse 18). We can talk about having faith all day long, but it
is our works that prove our faith is real.
Even the demons believe, but
they are still condemned (verse 19). Therefore, faith without works is
a dead faith (verse 20). Do you think a dead faith will save?
"Tremble" is from "Phrisso" {fris'-so}. This is the only use in the
Bible. It means "to shudder, to be struck with extreme fear, to be
horrified". James 2:21-25 gives two Old Testament examples that we are
justified by faith that works. Abraham (2:21-24). Abraham was a
Hebrew, godly, a man, a child of God, and the friend of God. He was
justified by faith (verse 23; quoting Genesis 15:6), but his faith had
to be perfected by works of obedience to God (verse 22), the greatest
being his offering of Isaac on an altar as a sacrifice in obedience to
the command of God (verse 21; cf. Genesis 22:1-18). Because of his
obedient faith, he was called the friend of God (verse 23; cp. 2
Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; John 15:14). What does the example of
Abraham demonstrate? "You see then that a man is justified by works,
and not by faith only" (verse 24). This is the only time the even
mentions the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, and James declares
it to be a lie. Rahab the harlot (verse 25; cf. Joshua 2:1-22;
6:22-25). In contrast with Abraham, Rahab was a Gentile, immoral, a
woman, an alien. She believed (Joshua 2:11, 21; Hebrews 11:31), and she
obeyed (Joshua 2:1-8, 21; James 2:25). Because of her obedient faith,
when Jericho was destroyed, Rahab was saved (Joshua 6). What does
James conclude about faith and works? James 2:26 For just as the body
without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James does not deny salvation by faith, but he denies salvation by
faith only. (verses 14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 26).

Objections Answered
Protestants raise various objections to this
explanation of James' teaching.

1. Sometimes they argue that in
Romans, Paul taught justification by faith without works for the alien
sinner, but James refers to the justification of Christians. Both Paul
and James quote the same passage to prove their point - Genesis 15:6
(Romans 4:3; James 2:23). In the application that each makes, Abraham
had already been an obedient believer for many years. Abram had an
obedient faith no later than age 75 (Genesis 11:31 -12:4; Hebrews
11:8). He had built altars and worshipped the Lord for years (Genesis
12:7; 13:3-4). Melchizedek blessed him as "Abram of God Most High"
(Genesis 14:18-20). Long before the events of Genesis 15, Abram was a
saved, obedient, faithful worshipper of the Lord. Rahab was an alien
when she was justified by obedient faith (James 2:25). Both the alien
and the child of God must be justified by faith that works. (Mark
16:15-16; Matthew 28:20).

2. Some argue that James speaks ofjustification before men,
not God. But the subject of James 2:14-26 is
salvation - Will faith without works save? (James 2:14)
Who saw Abraham
offer Isaac? (James 2:21; Genesis 22:3, 5, 12)
When Abraham offered
Isaac, he proved his faith to God (Genesis 22:11-12).
James 1:27
Pure
and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit
orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from
the world.

3. Others contend that Paul wrote of true faith, but James
speaks of alleged but false faith. Paul also that we must be saved by
working faith Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision
nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to
bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles, for His
name's sake, James teaches that claimed faith is proven to be saving
faith by works of obedience (James 2:14, 17, 20, 22, 24, 26).

4. Others claim that demons just believe in God, not in Christ (James
2:19). The demons believe in Jesus as the Son of God, worshipped Him,
submitted to Him, and they fear the judgment. Nevertheless, they are
lost (Matthew 8:29). Mark 5:1-13 Then they came to the other side of
the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes. And when He had come out of
the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an
unclean spirit, who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could
bind him, not even with chains, because he had often been bound with
shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and
the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. And
always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying
out and cutting himself with stones. When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran
and worshipped Him. And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What
have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by
God that You do not torment me." For He said to him, "Come out of the
man, unclean spirit!" Then He asked him, "What is your name?" And he
answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many." Also he begged
Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country. Now a
large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains. So all the
demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter
them." And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits
went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the
herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the
sea. And James plainly teaches that they prove faith without works is
dead (James 2:19-20). The kind of works Paul teaches will not save are
works that demand sinless obedience, works by which one would earn
righteousness, the works of the law of Moses (Romans 4:1-4, Galatians
5:1-4). The works James teaches justify are works of the obedience of
faith, works whereby we meet the conditions of divine grace, works of
obedience to the gospel.

1. Faith Alone Does Not Profit and Will Not Save
James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he
has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

2. Faith Alone is Dead James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself,
if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:20
But do you want to know, O foolish man,
that faith without works is dead? James 2:26 For as the body without
the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

3. Faith Alone Cannot Be Proved James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have
faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I
will show you my faith by my works.

4. Faith Alone Is Possessed by Demons James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even
the demons believe -- and tremble!

5. Faith Alone Is Incomplete James
2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by
works faith was made perfect?

6. Faith Alone Will Not Justify James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith
only. The only kind of faith that will save is a working faith.

1. The Alien Sinner Must Have A Working Faith To Be Saved
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of
heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

2. The Child of God Must Have a Working Faith To Be Saved Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence
only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with
fear and trembling. The alien must believe in Jesus (John 6:28-29),
repent of his sins (Acts 3:19), confess his faith in Christ (Romans
10:9-10), and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). The
child of God must "observe all things" Christ commands (Matthew
28:19-20). When he fails to do so he must repent, confess his sin, and
pray for forgiveness (Acts 8:22; 1 John 1:9). The doctrine of salvation
by faith alone may be "very full of comfort," but it is also very full
of..... "You see then that aman is justified by works, and not by faith only" (James
2:24).
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/catholic.htm
Riki
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Postby DeadPoet on Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:53 pm

Two things:

1) Don't post entire articles.

2) This was clearly written by a Protestant :roll: :D
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:22 pm

mmmm... .whack-a-mole time.

what? oh, nothing. sorry. *cough*
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Postby darren996 on Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:46 pm

Sometimes you have to find your own way in the dark...
Suspicion breeds confidence!
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Postby LibraLabRat on Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:58 pm

I like pie.
'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."
-James Morrow
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:04 am

LibraLabRat wrote:I like pie.


errr, okay then. we'll do that.

*pie*
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Postby NeferKa on Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:33 am

Qwertyuiopasd wrote:mmmm... .whack-a-mole time.

what? oh, nothing. sorry. *cough*


What about that game when you hit the crocodiles with the rubber mallet instead of the moles? (I think they come out of caves as opposed to holes.)
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:43 am

oh that ones fun. but I mean, really. can anything compete withthis?

hit Play This Movie. and #4: Dance Dance Dance
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Postby NeferKa on Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:02 am

Words fail me as I try to write a response to that clip. I'll leave it at: I watched it.


(I'm supposed to be studying for a few vile tests, and that was a nice break from reading about Medieval Christian theology or the intrinsic values of wilderness! I really need to quit screwing around and get back to my work though! Why are Pastafarians so darn interesting? You guys are so distracting!)
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:52 am

I'm sorry. we'll stop.

...for now. :)


WE
KNOW
WHERE
YOU
LIVE
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Postby Tansy the Terrible on Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:34 pm

Aaahahahaha! That was great Qwerty! Kevin bought DDR for my daughter for Yule. I think us two and the babysitter play it more than she does. My fave's Daikenkai.
"Okee dokee doggie daddy!"
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:18 pm

Dream is a classic. also D2R. and one I have a copy of on my ipod, but its called "Technotic Butterfly", and I don't think thats the actual name of it.

I don't own it, so I always play light... but I'ma ask for it for my birthday in october
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Postby His Vasal on Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:42 pm

:fsm_float: This is not a place for Christian rambligs of any kind

well fine, what do i know
I like pie as well


Cherry Pie
Pirates are the bizzom
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:11 pm

if you mean the whole forum, then no. in theology, you can do any kind of religious rambling you like. although this is scriptures and lore, specifically pastafarian. so this SHOULD be moved.
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:08 pm

thats what I said.

nobody ever gives me credit... :cry:

okay, enough self pitying.

you should see some of his other posts... it seems mr. vassal didn't read the FAQ...

[Yup. You right. He didn't...and I fixed your BBcode.] :mrgreen:
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