Lovecraft and FSM

[PragmaticallyWyrd]

I wonder if Cthulhu and Flying Spaghetti Monster are two faces fo the same Diety, similar to the loving, childlike Jesus and the Jesus who whipped the merchants in the temple?

Well, it's a nice idea, but I'm not sure it goes quite far enough. Cthulhu is alien--in the ultimate sense of that word. Not alien like the immigrant in the country without permission, not alien like those cute little greys we see all over the tabloids, not even alien like the weird-strange-glowy energy being in some-random-sci-fi movie. Chthulhu is truly alien. So alien that if you or I truly understood the nature of its (Cthulhu's) existence we would begin to lose our minds without any hope of coming back.

But then again, Lovecraft could've got it wrong. After all, the ancient Greeks had nothing but bad things to say about Eris, but I think she's pretty cool. (Discordian Eris)

(EDIT to fix broken quoting)

[aquazoo]

boom! i just made the connection. (I'll have to PM daveL.)

it helps with me Flying SM, Swiming SM, and Walking SM.

CTHULU IS TEH WALKING SPAGHETTI MONSTAR!

wheee!

Cthulhu has wings, so he can fly. He lives in the deepest ocean (or so I am told) so presumably he swims. And while the plush versions have cute lil' legs, I don't imagine he walks so much as slithers.

[aquazoo]

Well, it's a nice idea, but I'm not sure it goes quite far enough. Cthulhu is alien--in the ultimate sense of that word. Not alien like the immigrant in the country without permission, not alien like those cute little greys we see all over the tabloids, not even alien like the weird-strange-glowy energy being in some-random-sci-fi movie. Chthulhu is truly alien. So alien that if you or I truly understood the nature of its (Cthulhu's) existence we would begin to lose our minds without any hope of coming back.

I understand and agree with the statement that Cthulhu is alien. I'm not sure I see, however, how this figures in a consideration of any relationship with the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Are you saying FSM is not alien? How much do we know or understand the true and complete mature of any Diety? As humans with a finite understanding, how much do we see? Given an omniscience, how much is any Diety showing us of Their true nature or entirety?

But then again, Lovecraft could've got it wrong. After all, the ancient Greeks had nothing but bad things to say about Eris, but I think she's pretty cool. (Discordian Eris)

Likewise as times change and different cultures become powerful, the names and some of the character of any Diety will change. Currently I've been exploring the connection between Isis and BVMary/Mary Magdalene. (Along with plenty of pther people, it being popular culture.)

The Greeks and Romans had their Pantheon, as do other cultures who see Gods as separate and multiple.

Are Cthulhu and FSM two faces of the same? Are there other faces as well?

[Qwertyuiopasd]

i always thought he was just a diety that made peeps go insane.

and of course, with any diety (except maybe christian god), if we knew the true meaning of its existence we'd all go insane as well.

good job cthuhlu, you never lose.

but yeah, i'm saying that definition of alien can apply under "diety"

[PragmaticallyWyrd]

I understand and agree with the statement that Cthulhu is alien. I'm not sure I see, however, how this figures in a consideration of any relationship with the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Are you saying FSM is not alien?

I'm sorry, I didn't explain myself properly before. I didn't mean to say FSM was or was not alien. I think somewhere, while searching for things to link to, I missed some of what I wanted to write. Let me go back to your example again.

I wonder if Cthulhu and Flying Spaghetti Monster are two faces fo the same Diety, similar to the loving, childlike Jesus and the Jesus who whipped the merchants in the temple?

What I meant to get at was that I wasn't sure your comparison was accurate because, while FSM might (or might not) be good or kind, Cthulhu is not just evil or a little angry or cranky. Of course Cthulhu does things we would consider evil. But Cthulhu is beyond good and evil--it is a being that is so totally alien we cannot even hope to apply such concepts to it. So the comparison with the caring Jesus and the whipping Jesus seem a little inacurate to me.

If Jesus had tentacles (or noodles), then you could have a sort of caring side (that's FSM--probably).

And then the other side would be... Jesus turns up at the shop, and then, with no real anger whatsoever grows a tentacle where his head used to be,

(note--image is actually Nyarlathotep--but you get the idea)
starts chanting in a haunting, deeply unsettling melody never before heard as the people all around him fall to the ground clawing at themselves, screaming and crying out uncontrollably--their very grip on reality slipping away from them alarmingly quickly. Some of them might start bashing their heads against the ground for no apparent reason. Cthulhu-Jesus might crush a few of their skulls. Or not. *shrug*

Are Cthulhu and FSM two faces of the same? Are there other faces as well?

Yeah, they could be. Like I said towards the beginning of the thread, there's definitely a resemblance. Actually, that's part of what I like about FSM--he's like a kinder, gentler, less insanity-inducing Cthulhu.

Has anyone started writing FSM stories yet? We need some of those I think. You know, stories like, "Well one day Isaac wss walking through the woods and then, when he was hungry and thinking about spaghetti, FSM popped out from behind a tree and said, "frooougled blurgle! I created Everything. How are you today?"

Summary: I guess I didn't really mean to say that you were wrong--just that the specific analogy you chose seemed to give a disproportionately mild characterization of Great Cthulhu.

May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.

[aquazoo]

What I meant to get at was that I wasn't sure your comparison was accurate because, while FSM might (or might not) be good or kind, Cthulhu is not just evil or a little angry or cranky. Of course Cthulhu does things we would consider evil. But Cthulhu is beyond good and evil--it is a being that is so totally alien we cannot even hope to apply such concepts to it. So the comparison with the caring Jesus and the whipping Jesus seem a little inacurate to me.

Define the universe, give two examples...

I think you understand my point, and the difference is a matter of degree. A HUGE matter of degree. It's difficult to come up with an example of a Diety with very different faces. There is also Pele the destroyer who is also the creator as she births new land. But both faces are called Pele.

[PragmaticallyWyrd]

Define the universe, give two examples...

I'm not sure how the Universe came into the discussion. Anyway, here's two definitions from google:

Universe:
1) # everything that exists anywhere; "they study the evolution of the universe"; "the biggest tree in existence"
2) everything stated or assumed in a given discussion

The second definition allows for a lot of examples. The phrase "universe of discourse" gets used a lot in mathematics and logic. I can define the Universe to be just the set {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10} or the natural numbers or the Cartesian product of the real numbers or all males age 30 and older currently living in the U.S., etc.

I think that I get that, that had nothing to do with whatever your point was. ... I'm not sure if I had any point or purpose in mentioning it, except perhaps to serve as example that: 1) I can be slippery to talk to, 2) I'm a smartass 3) I've been up for about 20 hours straight, and 4) I've been listening to Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy audio books a lot. 5) Hail Eris!

It's difficult to come up with an example of a Diety with very different faces. There is also Pele the destroyer who is also the creator as she births new land. But both faces are called Pele.

Do we want to limit ourselves to just deities that were known to exist in real mythologies from the past? I'm not much schooled on mythology, but surely there's gotta be some two-faced deities out there. You know, the sort that are a destroyer by night and a creator by day.

Mother Nature could be cast that way.

In most of the Cthulhu Mythos, Yog Sothoth is depicted as disturbing, alien, etc, but in (I think) Through the Gates of the Silver Key (I might have that name wrong), he/it is closer to neutral and is depicted as a manifestation of a single pantheistic deity.

...


Or was your point specifically that most of the dualistic deities look dramatically different when they switch roles?

[Qwertyuiopasd]

Stories. We need stories.

How will we have great Apocrypha, with a lot of cool stuff (unedited except for total blasphemy) without stories?

And then there's the Apocryphal Apocrypha...totally unedited!!

dont worry, me and Dave are working on it. its covers Cthulhu, the Kraken, and Atkins.

[PragmaticallyWyrd]

dont worry, me and Dave are working on it. its covers Cthulhu, the Kraken, and Atkins.

That actually sounds pretty cool. I'm looking forward to reading it whenever it's done. I wish you guys FSM-speed on your writing. May His Noodly Appendage bless you and Dave in your endeavor.

[aquazoo]

Define the universe, give two examples...

I think that I get that, that had nothing to do with whatever your point was. ... I'm not sure if I had any point or purpose in mentioning it, except perhaps to serve as example that: 1) I can be slippery to talk to, 2) I'm a smartass 3) I've been up for about 20 hours straight, and 4) I've been listening to Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy audio books a lot. 5) Hail Eris!

It had a bit of a point - trying to give an example of a Diety with two (or multiple) manifestations is easy enough, but not as much of a variance as between Cthulhu and... anything else, really. The idea od "define the universe" is that the second example is difficult to find. And while you had several examples, the idea is that the universe encompasses all of them, and hence the request to give two examples is funny.

Am I trying to explain too much for something we already understand?

Do we want to limit ourselves to just deities that were known to exist in real mythologies from the past? I'm not much schooled on mythology, but surely there's gotta be some two-faced deities out there. You know, the sort that are a destroyer by night and a creator by day.

Mother Nature could be cast that way.

Real mythologies from the past, and new mythologies that become accepted. There aren't a lot of newer ones.

Destroyer by night, creator by day - this suggests that destruction is dark, or bad, and creativity is light, or good. When in fact there is destruction in order to create. Pulping trees to make paper, for example, for that great novel to be written and distributed.

Or was your point specifically that most of the dualistic deities look dramatically different when they switch roles?

They possibly look different, and sometimes they are called different names.

Another thing I see in the FSM/Cthulhu similarity - Ever notice that when talking about paganism/pantheism/Wicca/whatever with a fundamentalist, some will say that it's not the work of God, it's the work of the Devil - demon worship, etc.

FSM is a response to people wanting to use schools as a means to spread their religion. Will they see the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a manifestation of Cthulhu - evil, demonic, etc?

[aquazoo]

Not if they LOOK at it and are honest about what the read.

Sigh. Well, that would be a nice thought, wouldn't it. I like to believe the best in people, and I hope some will get the point and at the very least re-think what they are doing.

One of the reasons there is as much storytelling/moralizing/history and backstary creating going on is so that when the Fundamentalists- go to demonize the FSM, there are responsible, solidly "acceptably" moral conclusions, statements, whatever in the official forums. And just like every religion has its less that 'virtuous' offshoots, the other stuff that's out there (check Uncyclopedia) can be dismissed an 'not central'.

Sounds like a good plan! I'm reading through things ion the Forvm, bits here and there when I have the time. What I like best is the simple fact that there are like-minded people out there.

[Swatopluk]

Again a bit late to the discussion but I still need more posts for promotion.

As long as the Council of the Olive Garden hasn't decided otherwise there is still the possibility of the Anti-Past. He would be much more likely have similarities with Cthulhu & Company.
His Meatballs are made of Ersatz Soy meat and don't ask me what his equivalent of Noodly Appendages are made of (could explain the fishy aspects in smell and deeds).

It would be right down the Anti-Past's alley to show up at a slightly unhinged author's desk and teach him false lore about the One and True FSM.
The mere fact that you see similarities and could mistake the Noodly Master for an Alien Monster shows the success of the Unholy One. Preemptive strike, anyone? :fsm_crazy: :fsm_cry: