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Postby fusiontortellini on Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:06 pm

People go on and on about "illegal immigrants are taking our jobs".

This is what is known as a Big Lie. We need the illegal immigrants to provide cheap labor. There just aren't enough people to pick the fruit and build the houses. Last fall there was a lot of worry in California about food rotting in the fields because there was no one to pick it -- the immigrants were doing construction instead, for a slightly higher wage.

Our economy depends on cheap labor; if we didn't have a large supply of illegal immigrants to exploit, a lot of businesses would go belly up, and the prices of most of our food wouild skyrocket.

The problem isn't the import of immigrants, it's the export of jobs. Due to NAFTA and CAFTA and various other acts, it's now a *lot* easier for huge companies to outsource their manufacturing and other labor-intensive jobs to countries where labor is cheap -- like Mexico and India.

So the huge companies pay their public relations people to make sure everybody's upset about the "immigrant problem" instead of the "job export problem". :x :x :x

Though that may become problematic soon; terrorists are starting to target outsourcing centers in India. The terrorists have finally figured out where we're most vulnerable. Right in the pocketbook.
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Postby SpisBoy on Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:16 pm

Illegal immigrants have benefits and drawbacks, but the bottom line is that

MEXICANS ARE PEOPLE TOO!. :fsm_smile:

Just because they were born in a country that is poor, has a corrupt government, has a corrupt police force, a crappy public school system, etc. etc. doesn't mean that they are deemed unworthy of enjoying the great opportunities of the United States! It's easy for you to say that immigrants shouldn't be allowed to cross the border into a better life, you sitting in your comfortable America-chair with your high-paying job, free education, social security, scholarships, safety, and so on... but that doesn't mean you deserve to live in this wonderful place more than anyone else!

It's not easy to get a permit to enter the United States, and if you apply but you don't have any family in the US, chances are you won't be able to get in for 20 years, or never get in at all...

Are you going to declare the United States a private club?
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Postby Duke on Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:20 pm

Why not make the system to immigrate and become a citizen of the USA easier?


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Postby fusiontortellini on Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:39 pm

It would be nice if immigration were easier -- except it'd never fly, what with the fake terrorism threats and the pretend unemployment problem.

At least my family's doing its best -- two of my siblings married foreign nationals in order to get them green cards. Both foreign-born spouses have become productive citizens.

The goal of the U.S. government is not full employment; it's about 5% unemployment. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a hirers' market and wages would rise.

It's not exactly a conspiracy, just an understood thing.
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Postby _Tex_ on Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:06 pm

Duke wrote:Why not make the system to immigrate and become a citizen of the USA easier.


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Because then the floodgates would open. Half of south america, a significant amount of the middle east and a large portion of asia would suddenly up and move to your shores. This sudden influx would put such a massive strain on the various governmental departments as well as creating such unrest within the community that your country would either collapse or at least be severely crippled for the next century.
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Postby Duke on Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:11 pm

_Tex_ wrote:
Duke wrote:Why not make the system to immigrate and become a citizen of the USA easier.


Duke

Because then the floodgates would open. Half of south america, a significant amount of the middle east and a large portion of asia would suddenly up and move to your shores. This sudden influx would put such a massive strain on the various governmental departments as well as creating such unrest within the community that your country would either collapse or at least be severely crippled for the next century.



I didn't say that the system should be made that easy. The way you put it, you make it sound as if I suggested to simply open the borders to anyone, no matter the circumstances.


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"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards."

--Mark Twain


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

--Friedrich Nietzsche


"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever."

--Woody Allen
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Postby fusiontortellini on Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:20 pm

So make immigration easier -- not easiest. Though Carlos Mencia (the comedian) has an interesting take on it. I gather his parents were illegal immigrants. His idea is that there should be a fence around America -- it makes it harder for the real doofuses to get in.

I recommend Mencia -- he's totally politically incorrect, and he makes some good points.
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Postby Duke on Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:38 pm

fusiontortellini wrote:So make immigration easier -- not easiest. Though Carlos Mencia (the comedian) has an interesting take on it. I gather his parents were illegal immigrants. His idea is that there should be a fence around America -- it makes it harder for the real doofuses to get in.

I recommend Mencia -- he's totally politically incorrect, and he makes some good points.


I like him, I have seen him once or twice on TV. He is pretty funny, and I like his political jokes.


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"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards."

--Mark Twain


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

--Friedrich Nietzsche


"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever."

--Woody Allen
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Postby fusiontortellini on Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:06 am

One of the things I like about Mencia is that by making jokes out of racism -- using all the perjorative words, making fun of stereotypes, etc. -- he makes the point that we're all Americans now. The political area has been so divisive lately; he makes the point that we may all be different, but we're still all the same. :D :wink:
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Postby Duke on Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:36 am

fusiontortellini wrote:One of the things I like about Mencia is that by making jokes out of racism -- using all the perjorative words, making fun of stereotypes, etc. -- he makes the point that we're all Americans now. The political area has been so divisive lately; he makes the point that we may all be different, but we're still all the same. :D :wink:



Yeah, I just listened to one of his sketches, I heard just about exactly what you are talking about.


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"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards."

--Mark Twain


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

--Friedrich Nietzsche


"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever."

--Woody Allen
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Postby _Tex_ on Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:14 am

duke- what i meant was that to make it easier in any way, particulalry if it is making it easier for illegal immigrants to claim legal status would result in a massive flood of illegal immigration. All those people have to be dealt with by someone, fed, sheltered, clothed, processed etc. then once they get into society it is the same thing. Many will go on to be productive citizens and this in turn creates more work, but many also will not, creating more strain. Plus whenever there is a large immigration rascism and xenophobia rear their ugly heads.
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Postby fusiontortellini on Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:32 am

And racism and xenophobia aren't rearing their ugly heads now? Giving immigrants some sort of "guest worker" status would cut down on hunting for people and would allow the border patrol to concentrate on drugs and explosives and all that other lovely stuff we're supposed to be scared of.

Not to mention the human trafficking. If you can be here legally, you're less likely to find yourself sexually enslaved with no appeal to legal authorities.
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Postby _Tex_ on Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:26 am

moreso.... much much moreso.
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Postby Alpaca on Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:48 pm

My former history teacher was from Belize. She was affluent, so immigration was no problem for her. But she told us that the system for immigration from generally poor countries like Belize and Mexico is desinged to prevent poor people from getting in legally. There's a $200 processing fee to even file your preliminary application. Not because it costs nearly that much to process it, but because they want to weed out the poor people.

Why? Because typically, they work here, and then send their wages back to their families. And thus, the money flows out of America. I'm not gonna pass judgement on whether this cynical policy of selection is ultimately good or bad for the country itself, but I will say that from an ethical standpoint I consider it wrong.
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Postby Duke on Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:39 pm

fusiontortellini wrote:And racism and xenophobia aren't rearing their ugly heads now? Giving immigrants some sort of "guest worker" status would cut down on hunting for people and would allow the border patrol to concentrate on drugs and explosives and all that other lovely stuff we're supposed to be scared of.

Not to mention the human trafficking. If you can be here legally, you're less likely to find yourself sexually enslaved with no appeal to legal authorities.



Yeah, I think that some form of the guest worker system is a good idea.


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"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards."

--Mark Twain


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

--Friedrich Nietzsche


"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever."

--Woody Allen
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