Stripper factory: necessary for FSM to make its point?

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Stripper factory: necessary for FSM to make its point?

Postby Aviana on Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:35 pm

As a feminist I am opposed to the idea of yet another religion that treats women as things. In this case, things that are manufactured for the sexual pleasure of men, things with no autonomy or choice as to whether they even want to be strippers.

Yes, I realize this is a parody religion. One might make the arguement that this aspect of it mocks the misogyny that runs througout pretty much ever other religion, particularly the three most popular male sky god religions: Christianity, Judaism and Islam. It mocks these religions by just blatantly symbolizing how they view women.

I love the pasta. I love the idea that pirate costumes decrease global warming trends. I love the idea that if ID ever gets a toe hold in science classes FSM will be there too.

However, it would be great if just one thing that I enjoy could be totally free of this particular brand of misogynistic bullshit.

Does any one else here understand what I mean?
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Postby Aviana on Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:36 pm

I should add that I tried to look for a simliar thread on this, and that I wasn't sure if I should post this here or in one of the similar forums. This subforum seemed like the best fit for the topic.
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Postby MPTrooper on Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:16 pm

I want you to explain to me how it is I and my faith treat women as objects or how I belong to a system of misogynists.

Please keep the ultra fami-nazi bullshit to a minimum. And if you are going to link something, for God's sakes please ensure the amount of fallacies, illogical arguments and the like aren't too apparent.

Then go make me some dinner.
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Postby Almighty Doer of Stuff on Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:30 pm

Ahoy! Welcome to Venganza! That's a good question you have there. First, here's some excerpts from the FAQ (which I assume you read and am just emphasizing some bits, although if you haven't you should do so):

# Q: So, I'd love to eat pasta, but I have some sort of medical condition/diet/personal preference that prevents me from doing so. What do I do?

A: His Noodly Majesty is, above all, tolerant. Be a good person, and you'll be fine, eating Pasta or not.

# Q: What if I don't have a set of pirate regalia? What if I don't drink beer? What if I think strippers are immoral?

A: Tolerance. You'll be okay.


# Q: Speaking of beer, what kind of beer is in the volcano? What if it's not my favorite? What are the strippers like? What if I'm a woman and want a man? What if I'm looking for a relationship, not just short-term fun? What if...

A: He is omniscient and omnipotent. You'll be well taken care of in Heaven, in a way that will suit your wants and needs exactly.


Beyond that, we don't know too much about the nature of the strippers, but we can speculate (which I think is one of the good things about this religion: it's very much open to interpretation. Our holy text starts with a disclaimer stating that part or all of its contents may be mistruths or bald-faced lies, placed there to test our faith. This means I can take the WWAPD? section, for example, which I don't like literally, and interpret it as an allegory (which I do) even though it doesn't actually state that it is. Makes for a very flexible faith, as opposed to the rigidity that is the Abrahamic faiths. Anyway, [/tangent]).

Since they're made in a factory, as opposed to in a studio, it's reasonable to assume the strippers -male, female or otherwise- in question are probably outwardly-realistic but mindless automatons. As it says, however, if you want a real relationship, that's perfectly workable as well, and if there's not a good pre-existing match for you, I believe there may be a studio where they can make custom-made, real, free-willed humans (probably according to the FSM's specifications rather than yours, since he knows better than you what would be a good match for you, seeing as he's your creator as well. Your average single guy, given the opportunity, would probably choose Sexy McSlut regardless of whether someone else would make him happier. That's what the factory strippers are for, anyway!)

This is, of course, my own personal speculation. It's all irrelevant to me since I have a wonderful girlfriend.

Anyway, I have a headache now which means I've forgotten what I just wrote. The point is, if you don't like a tenet of the religion, you can work around it if you use a little creativity.
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Postby Aviana on Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:35 pm

I want you to explain to me how it is I and my faith treat women as objects or how I belong to a system of misogynists.


Not my job. If you haven't picked up on it yet I doubt I can help you.

Please keep the ultra fami-nazi bullshit to a minimum.

No. Also, stupid statements like this pretty much answer your first question.

And if you are going to link something, for God's sakes please ensure the amount of fallacies, illogical arguments and the like aren't too apparent.


Well, now that you mention it go look at The Brick Testament. Fracking hilarious and accuate, as it quotes the Bible exactly, then depicts it in Legos.

Then go make me some dinner.


No. If you can't do that for yourself, cupcake, I suppose you'll just have to starve to death. Not really much of a pity, that.
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Postby MPTrooper on Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:02 pm

So wait, you make a claim and when I ask you to defend it, you claim it isn't your job?

While I often take that approach to what I assume to be common sense situations, I'm starting to understand why it is people hate it when I do so.

Ok fair enough. You don't appear to be very original so perhaps I'll go over one of the more common reasons "femi-nazi" so dislike the Catholic Church.

And yes, I already know I completed some internet law where the longer a topic goes the closer one gets to mentioning Nazi's yadayadayda. I would call her an "ultra feminist" or some such but I just got me a new Nazi blasting game for the 360 (Points of Conflict. The game sucks. For God's sakes it involves killing Nazi's in New York! How does a game like that suck! ::sigh::) thus my reason for the whole femi nazi thing.


1: Women can't be Priest's

Well duh. The reason they can't be priest's is because the Catholic Church has this little tidbit of theology called "In Persona Christi" (Sp. My Latin isn't what it used to be)

The reasoning goes that A Catholic Priest is actting in Christ's stead here on Earth. Since Christ is a male, so too then must the priest.

Just as a man can not be a mother, nor can a women be a father, so then must a Priest be a man.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=230243

Pope John Paul says that “the fact the Blessed Virgin Mary... received neither the mission proper to the apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them.â€￾


http://www.catholiceducation.org/articl ... p0001.html

And then we have a blog from a dear friend of mine and a hell of a theologion.

This is from a blogger on myspace who calls her self Catholic Suaso OblSB .

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... =362488040

God: Him or Her?
Category: Religion and Philosophy

This is an article which my theology professor wanted us to read for a discussion. It was written by a feminist nun who wants to call God Sophia because she doesn't like the idea of him being male...Her statements are in bold and my comments are not in bold. This ariticle was written by Elizabeth Johnson, CSJ.

"When you whispered a prayer this morning…to whom exactly did you pray? An old man with a beard somewhere beyond the clouds1? Sophia, otherwise known as Holy Wisdom2? The Holy Spirit? Jesus?"

1) Elementary view of God.

2) If you are a Gnostic, sure.



"God is too often still a 'chap3.' It's just assumed that God is the single individual with more power than anyone else4 who intervenes every now and then to get certain things done5, and whom you need to satisfy on a number of levels6...this image is so unworthy of us7."

3) A Chum? A fellow?

4) Probably because he created the universe and is the cause of all things which exist and are also not him. He has more power because he is the origin of all power.

5) Like…redemption? There he intervened in the incarnation for the salvation of his creation.

6) Yes, we must make satisfaction, as it was us who first offended him, not the other way around. We satisfy him trough a number of levels when we worship him and repent of our sinfulness.

7) So we are too good to be asked to condescend to God's expectations by seeing him as the all-powerful creator, who in his mercy, intervened in our existence (which he caused) and redeemed us, and is still so audacious to expect us to pray to him, pay him homage, and repent of our evil ways just because of his redeeming work? Maybe he should thank us for still putting his name on our currency!

"My daily bread is teaching college students and graduate students8, and I find among them that this image just doesn't work, especially as they rebel against their parents9…it's even less attractive to have the super-parent idea of God10…I see a terrific hunger for a mature faith, but that's not being fed11…"

8) Wow, mine is the Eucharist. Boy, I am missing out.

9) Aww, these poor rebellious students who hate their parents aren't happy with Abba Father!

10) Yeah, how dare God think that he can bring us into existence and still tell us what to do! What a Fascist!

11) If teens rebelling against their parents are really hungry for a mature faith, then maybe they should grow up and maturely adhere to the Judeo-Christian concept of "Honor thy father and thy mother."

" In the Middle Ages…ideas about God were drawn mainly from scripture12"

12) Yay! I glad somebody got it right!

"What is forgotten…is that this God became incarnate13, that God is everywhere present in the Spirit14, that God is filled with compassion15."

13) Yes…as a man, I remember!

14) Is God everywhere or present in the Spirit? I can accept that his Spirit is everywhere, but if this is headed into the pantheistic direction which suggests that God is in everything, then forget it…

15) Who forgot the compassion of God?

"The Trinity has just about been lost forever in the West…the Holy Spirit is the Cinderella of Western theology, in the kitchen doing all the work while the other two get to go to the ball16"

16) This is theologically inaccurate, and if anyone believes it, then I it is because of poor catechesis. This implies that the Holy Spirit is separate from Father and Son, and that only one persona of the Trinity is doing anything, when in fact, if one does it, they all do it. Yes, certain attributes are used to clarify specific functions of each persona, but this does not limit the Trinity in any way. I supposed the Holy Spirit was doing all the work while Jesus was enjoying himself at the crucifixion by this logic. God is a Trinity, not a triumvirate.

"The three major words for God are still Father, King, and Lord…What this sets up unconsciously…is the assumption that men have more in common with divinity than women do17. Those three particular images are very patriarchal…they refer…to a ruling male…somebody who is dominating18…"

17) This sets up very consciously that men have more in common with the roles of father, king, and lord than do women, who would be mother, queen, and lady.

18) Images aside, God is dominating by his own right. The creator has authority over the creation, and rightly so, as it is the creation which owes all of its existence to the creator, for without the creator it would not exist, and it's very existence is a gift undeserved. God can dominate all he wants, and if those images make his dominance all the clearer, then so be it.

"That's [Father, Lord, King] one of those static ideas that does not feed the souls of a lot of people19."

19) How does it not? As father, he provides for his creation. Historically, it has always been the male who provides, from the Paleolithic age to the present, by hunting for food and building shelter and providing protection. The lord is the master of an area of influence, and it is God who is the master of his creation. A king is an absolute monarch who governs and maintains law and order. God is a king, he has given us his law, and only within his law can their be any order. These "static" ideas are quite appropriate.

"There's little that women then can bring into a relationship with God who is going to be their lord, king, or their father20…Women think ' I don't want a dominating man: Go away until you grow up and learn how to treat me like a human being21.' "

20) There is much women can bring to the relationship! Women, like men, must acknowledge God as lord by being obedient to him, God as father by honoring him as he tells us to honor our own parents because he is the provider for us, and God as king because he has given us his laws to live by so that we may rightly inherit his kingdom.

21) Then is a woman thinks this way, perhaps she should grow up and quit making God in her image. God treats men and women like humans beings well enough, because he created us to be human beings, and knows more so than anyone what it is to be a human being simply through the act of creating us. He knows us even more so through his becoming like us in all but sin during the incarnation. Who are we to tell him how he should treat is? Does a painting tell the painter where it should be hanged? No, and God as the creator of humanity has every right to treat his creation as he does, and knowing humanity more than mankind knows itself, he has every right to treat us as he does.

"We women have to abstract ourselves from our bodies to see ourselves in the image of God is God is always depicted as male22."

22) This statement greatly detracts from the woman's ability to think and reason abstractly. It implies that women are somehow not intelligent enough to see how we are created in the image of God if he is always depicted as male. It implies we can not see the theological implications of God being like a father and still understand the theological implications of being made in the image and likeness of God. We are made in the image of God, not physically as male or female, because God is in reality neither, but by being created in his image we have the ability to think in reason, albeit not as perfectly as God, but like God.

"The notion of God as the one who embraces us, in whom we live and move and have our being, is so much more my sense of God then the grand old man in the sky23."

23) Well, then grow up and see the metaphor that paints God as an old man in the sky. This statement almost seems to imply that men are not embracing, and that only women can exhibit the compassion which God possesses. This suggest that men can note exhibit compassion, and moves beyond feminism and into anti-masculinism.

"I was absolutely conscious of Sophia24 embracing him [dying friend] and me in this crisis."

24) Who is this Sophia? Is God now a quadrinity? If Sophia is wisdom, and Jesus is the Word made flesh, then is not wisdom but an aspect of the Word, which makes wisdom another attribute of the Word, Jesus? This use of 'Sophia' to describe God reeks of Gnosticism. The Lord commanded his disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Sophia was not an option.

The whole notion of God being the Father comes to us from his Son, Jesus, who said to pray to him as our Father. Jesus himself was male. Mary is espoused to the Holy Spirit, and I hate to think she is espoused to a woman. Sure, God is genderless, but his roles are more akin to masculinity, and it is insulting to males to insist that only a woman, a mother, could ever be nurturing and loving as God is. God is perfection. He can be as nurturing and loving as he pleases, and it is the responsibility of human males to seek to practice in a like manner his love and compassion.

For now I'll stick with that. BTW, I like my sandwich's lightly toasted and with the cheese melted. Thanks!
MPTrooper
 

Postby Aviana on Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:05 pm

Back to the actual topic of this thread:is it really necessary for FSM to include stripper factories?

ADo'S, thanks for the sane, intelligent and emotionally well-balanced reply.

I have indeed read the FAQ, but I find the answers there, even including the ones you thoughtfully included in your post, unsatisfying.

Regarding the answer of 'tolerance'. I don't think objectifying anyone is something anyone should have to tolerate. I wouldn't tolerate the insistance of there being in the Pasafarian hereafter black slaves or asian indentured servants who only exist as railroad workers or launderers. Those are dehumanizing stereotypes that were unfortunately true at one time, and have thankfully been shunned from our society. People who exist soley for the sexual titilation of others (strippers created in a factory) is just as dehumanizing.

Strippers as mindless automatons just flat disturbs me. I personally find that very creepy. Custome made humans? Even creepier! Also, how can they have free-will if they are custom made? They've been designed specifically not to have free will but to be servants to others. Stepford Strippers! Ick ick ick!

I do appreciate your willingness to discuss this and to share your thoughts on what may or may not be the will of the FSM.
:)
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Postby Captain 'Noodly' Cutlass on Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:53 pm

I suppose I kind of agree with you, it is a little sexist but to be honest i dont think the whole idea of the stripper factory was ever intended to be sexist in any way. It is much more likely to be intended to serve as a continuity of the tongue in cheek humuor of the belief system and as you said, a parody of other religions. It's true that the Pastafarian idea of heaven seems to favour the stereotypical male hedonistic hopes but its all about majority rule ( i don't mean men have a majority but the fact this has not come up in another thread illustrates my point) and also the fact that this is the complete opposite of the christian ideal of heaven was probably a key factor in its creation.

Hope i dont sound like too much of a patronising arse,

i love talking here, actually gives me some hope that Christianity and ID may die out one day.
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Postby PantyGnawer on Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:47 pm

MPTrooper wrote:I want you to explain to me how it is I and my faith treat women as objects or how I belong to a system of misogynists.

Please keep the ultra fami-nazi bullshit to a minimum. And if you are going to link something, for God's sakes please ensure the amount of fallacies, illogical arguments and the like aren't too apparent.

Then go make me some dinner.


Oh god. Can't breathe. Ch ch ch choking on the irony.

Aviana, please allow me to translate this post for you, since I'm sure that you aren't familiar with our community.

For some time MPTrooper has railed upon us all about the degradation of women. He feels that porn, strippers, sex without love, and even thinking about a particular woman while masturbating, are all derogatory to women.

In essence, he Should be the most likely forum member to agree with the point behind your post, but since he obviously feels that your post threatens his religion, he is resorting to name calling (femi-nazi) and antagonizing (Go make me a sandwich).


The very fact that he feels that porn movies only degrade women (or at least he's only concerned with the women), when most porn scenes involve both a Man and a woman doing the same thing based on their own free will, is actually pretty good evidence of the point that your post makes about his religion.

Of course we could cite hundreds of bible passages that would completely make your point about the inherent sexism in the Abrahamic religions, but fortunately for MPT, the catholics take the words of old appointed white men more seriously than they do their own holy book.

---------------------------------Now then.

Aviana, welcome to the forums! :fsm_rock: Your refusal to even acknowledge MPT's second post shows that you are a quick learner, have amazing restraint, and would likely be a valuable addition to the forums.


As to the strippers. Please recognize that the ability to customize your own stripper certainly extends into the arena of male strippers. Many many females enjoy a good male striptease and they shouldn't be denied this in heaven anymore than their male counterparts.

Of course we know that no human souls will be forced into servitude in the stripper factories, so your question of whether or not the strippers themselves have freewill, is quite a vexing theological conundrum. We have no FSM hell, only a lesser heaven where the strippers are ugly and the beer is flat. Perhaps the souls from the lesser heaven can earn cool points from the FSM if they volunteer to do a stint as a hot stripper in the good heaven.

Again, welcome!
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Postby Cardinal Queequeg on Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:55 am

Aviana wrote:Back to the actual topic of this thread:is it really necessary for FSM to include stripper factories?


Aviana:

Interesting points.

As you point out, FSM is a parody religion, making attempts to run counter to the beliefs of those that would bring the bible into Science class. (Actually, it sometimes seems so similar to them that it's scary...)

I have been around FSM pretty much from the start, and you can rest assurred that no offence is intended to you. The concepts of a Beer Volcano and a Stripper factory are simply parts of the "fun and games" attitude, and in that regard I would opine that yes, the Stripper Factory is necessary. But I wouldn't dwell too deeply on it. Let that part go, if it suits you to do so, and focus on the message of fighting creationism in the science class. We all may squabble and seem a bit nutty at times, but it always comes back to that. And on that point, this diverse group stands united in a way that is astonishing, and a pleasure to be a part of.

WELCOME!

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Re: Stripper factory: necessary for FSM to make its point?

Postby Cardinal Fang on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:04 pm

Aviana wrote: As a feminist I am opposed to the idea of yet another religion that treats women as things. In this case, things that are manufactured for the sexual pleasure of men, things with no autonomy or choice as to whether they even want to be strippers.

Yes, I realize this is a parody religion. One might make the arguement that this aspect of it mocks the misogyny that runs througout pretty much ever other religion, particularly the three most popular male sky god religions: Christianity, Judaism and Islam. It mocks these religions by just blatantly symbolizing how they view women.

I love the pasta. I love the idea that pirate costumes decrease global warming trends. I love the idea that if ID ever gets a toe hold in science classes FSM will be there too.

However, it would be great if just one thing that I enjoy could be totally free of this particular brand of misogynistic bullshit.

Does any one else here understand what I mean?


Question: who says they're women strippers?

I'm female, so for my taste, male strippers is much more my thing. The gospel (and all the other FSM literature) says nothing about the strippers being of any set gender. Personally, I believe that FSM heaven has lovely hunky oiled male strippers and lots of chocolate sauce. :wink:

If that is the case, how can there be misogyny? Is it not just as sexist to suggest that only women can work as strippers?

Besides I was at uni with someone who worked in a pole dancing club whilst she studied law. She started doing it because it was better aerobic exercise than any training class. She said the only thing the felt guilty about was taking money off a load of dumb men. She was firmly of the opinion that they were the ones who are taken advantage of. Having been worked behind the bar at that club, I completely agree. (My friend now at a top barristers chambers in London).

But as fellow Cardinal Queequeg says: don't dwell too deeply on this aspect. The principal thing to remember that Flying Spaghetti Monsterism is designed as a counterpoint to the creationists who want to replace logic and rationality with poorly designed psudo-mythology.

The other thing is - one of the tenets of FSM-ism is loose moral standards. In other words, if you don't believe one part of FSM doctrine (e.g. strippers), you're not going to get punished. We're not the Spanish Inquisition.... *biting knuckles so as not to say the obvious*

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Re: Stripper factory: necessary for FSM to make its point?

Postby Clifford on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:08 pm

Aviana wrote:Yes, I realize this is a parody religion.


Wrong. This is not a parody of religion I make clear, it is a parody of intelligent design!

Besides that, welcome to the forum. Female Pirates are equally welcome as male and homosexual ones.

As for the strippers they work both ways for both sexes, well all individuals altogether. If they have souls or not, I am unsure.
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Postby Cpt. No-Beard Scallywag on Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:39 pm

I've always been uneasy with the stripper thing too. While I must concede that it is not sexist (the strippers are of both sexes) it still seems somewhat dehumanizing if we are talking about people with souls, and creepy if we are talking about robots without souls. But I am pretty sure that we are talking about robots here and if I find it creepy than I don't have to partake. I'll just lounge by the beer volcano and flirt with real pirates and leave the creepy robo-strippers to those who appreciate them.
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Postby Cpt. No-Beard Scallywag on Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:11 pm

And as for MPT, it is hard to deny that there are more than a few passages of the bible that women might stand to take offence at. Even if the church no longer condones the kind of sexism that occurs in the bible, it kind of sucks when the main texts of your faith are wrought with things you find insulting. Its like trying to read old philosophy texts by mysogenist philosophers. Some of them had awsome ideas but they are punctuated by crass insults aimed at women. Trying to read through them can be like listening to fingernails on a chalkboard. Pretty much all the main texts for the Judeo-Christian religions can be quite a tough read in that way.

Secondly, there may be very good reasons for why God is usually pictured as male in these traditions. There may be excellent reasons why priests must be male ect. But despite the good reasons, that can still have women feeling very left out of their own religion. The fact is that men are constantly and visibly reminded of their connection with God. From the constant use of the pronoun "He", metaphors of "Father" and "Son", depiction of God as male in artwork, it is quite trying. Yes women have good imaginations and yes we can relate to God even under these circumstances, but it is annoying and off-putting to have our relationship with God pushed so far to the fringe that we are often left having to seek it out for ourselves.

Also, even if your church has respect for women, I'm willing to bet that this respect is somewhat limited to a certain scope of womanhood. The virgin Mary is well respected in the Catholic tradition, and so I assume that women who have taken on maternal roles are respected. I often hear surmons praising women who take on such roles. But what of we who just are not interested in housekeeping and child-rearing? I have never heard a surmon praising the female bread-winner (though I have heard them praising the male bread-winner). Perhaps your church is different, but my experience has been that if a woman chooses a non-traditional role she will, at worst, be derided by her church and at best have no representation of herself within her churches traditions and teachings that might help guide her.

It may not bother all women. Many have found ways to identify with God without the aid of the metaphors provided in scripture or art. Many have, as you suggested, abstracted the concept of God and found themselves there. This is not impossible to do and I have no doubt that the Judeo-Christian traditions can be very rewarding for women who can. But the fact remains that men are not faced with these problems in the same way women are. These religions are centred around men, men's problems, men's life experiences and use language and metaphors that resonate with MEN. I think that alone warrents the criticism that they have a problem with sexism.
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Postby Robbobrob on Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:36 am

Aviana wrote:Back to the actual topic of this thread:is it really necessary for FSM to include stripper factories?
:)


Yes, because it is satire.

Other religions have virgins waiting for the faithful.

We don't ask them to be virgins. :wink:
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