DI discovers FSM ID

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DI discovers FSM ID

Postby FireFox on Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:50 pm

makes much of the endorcement of FSM by academics and the underlying mocking of Judeo-Christian religions traditions in academia. Odd coming from an organisation promoting an unknowen designer
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/12/ce ... the_c.html

S
(link from http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006 ... he_fsm.php)
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Postby EarthRise on Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:50 pm

Whine bitch moan from the DI. They seem to have misinterpreted Pastafarianism as a mockery of all religion, as many religious folk have, rather than the criticism of ID that it actually is.
[...] the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
-Darwin
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Postby dbutler on Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:50 pm

I know the rules of this forum so I will not mock anyones religion here, but I firmly believe that religions should be as vulnerable to criticism and open mockery as anything else in our nation/world today.

I think people who are afraid of facing criticism are simply afraid of what they may discover by hearing multiple viewpoints. Nothing is as "hands-off" as religion. And while FSM wasn't inteded to mock all of religion, I tire of hearing people whine about insensitivity.

/vent off
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Postby MPTrooper on Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:52 pm

a Sam Harris fan. Lucky us ;)
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Postby dbutler on Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:20 pm

Indeed a fan. :)

I was surprised when I read his book that we agree on so many points. And although that is how I feel that doesn't mean I wouldn't be willing to listen to good reasons why these issues should remain 'hands-off.' I just feel that there should always be open discourse.
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Postby MPTrooper on Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:43 pm

The only problem I have with an Atheist arguing religion is what I consider their often disrespect concerning my beliefs.

Just because a bible isn't sacred to you, doesn't mean you shouldn't expect me to get a tad upset when you rip one apart in front of me.

Intelligent, thoughtful respectful discussion is worth more to me then blind rage, and sadly for the Atheist side of an argument, nothing they say will convnce me they are right. My Faith is unshakeable and nothing a mortal of this earth can say will change that.

I know for a fact that stance drives Atheist's crazy. I've been called many...many names because I "refused to see the logic".


Bah, a tad more long winded then I cared for. In any case welcome to the boards
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Postby dbutler on Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:23 am

One of the most laborious aspects of being an atheist. Trying to sound 'nice' when debating religious issues. I do my absolute best to phrase my arguments and inquiries politely but I am afraid that the very nature of what I am argueing just about precludes that.

While I (and many other atheists I'm sure) do not mean to disrespect your beliefs (and definitely not rip up a bible in front of you), remember when discussing this subject that the nature of the points being argued may sometimes come across that way anyway.

I know a few people who share your viewpoint that
nothing they say will convnce me they are right. My Faith is unshakeable and nothing a mortal of this earth can say will change that.
and that is absolutely the most frustrating thing you can say to us! Because, while you have your reasons for feeling this way, it makes it impossible for us to relay the point of what we are trying to say, and nohing is more frustrating than that.
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Postby MPTrooper on Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:31 am

Guess were even then ;)

Here is to a long and debate filled discussion board friend ship
:D
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Postby dbutler on Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:34 am

Cheers MPTrooper! I look forward to it.
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Postby KidDirty on Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:26 am

MPTrooper wrote:
Just because a bible isn't sacred to you, doesn't mean you shouldn't expect me to get a tad upset when you rip one apart in front of me.


I must assume that you are referring to someone literally ripping a bible in half like a strongman with a telephone book? And I doubt that you have whitnessed Sam Harris do this. If so this might be a tad offensive. (Among the pothead culture, its well known that if you can't find a rolling paper, the best alternative is Bible paper because its so thin. I've never done this, but I totally know "christians" who have.)

Otherwise you are referring to someone challenging the logical/philosophical/or historical content of the bible. If this is the case, then you must realize that when a book is published, no matter what the content, it is open season for scrutiny. And the bibles season is all year long, no bag limits, no restrictions.

MPTrooper wrote:Intelligent, thoughtful respectful discussion is worth more to me then blind rage, and sadly for the Atheist side of an argument, nothing they say will convnce me they are right. My Faith is unshakeable and nothing a mortal of this earth can say will change that.


I think most of us come from religious backgrounds (at least by proxy with family members), so I think we generally realize what we are up against when it comes to your faith.

Unfortunately, its not "sadly for the Atheist", its sadly for you. I do feel sad for anyone who makes a statement that infers that no amount of reason, logic, or reality will make them change a certain stance. Religious or not, such a stance should make us all feel sad.


MPTrooper wrote:I know for a fact that stance drives Atheist's crazy. I've been called many...many names because I "refused to see the logic".


I highly doubt that it is your stance that drives them crazy, we pretty much accept this when going into such a conversation. I would consider that many would question your logic, but doubt that many would resort to calling you names. Though I do know an atheist around here that is questionable in this nature.
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Postby MPTrooper on Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:00 am

Kid

I must assume that you are referring to someone literally ripping a bible in half like a strongman with a telephone book? And I doubt that you have whitnessed Sam Harris do this. If so this might be a tad offensive. (Among the pothead culture, its well known that if you can't find a rolling paper, the best alternative is Bible paper because its so thin. I've never done this, but I totally know "christians" who have.)



I'm referring to the web sites and demebstrations of someone tearing pages out of the Bible. If a "Christian" does that I must wonder at the strength of his or her Faith.

I think most of us come from religious backgrounds (at least by proxy with family members), so I think we generally realize what we are up against when it comes to your faith.

Unfortunately, its not "sadly for the Atheist", its sadly for you. I do feel sad for anyone who makes a statement that infers that no amount of reason, logic, or reality will make them change a certain stance. Religious or not, such a stance should make us all feel sad.


I disagree. I have my reasons for beliveing and have melded my world view to fit my belifes. My Faith makes sense for me.

I feel sorry for an Atheist because I honestly have no idea what they live for. Dispite all I have read from different blogs and websites I don't understand. What is the point in liveing for things of this world when nothing of this world will last? I can't see myself liveing like that.

highly doubt that it is your stance that drives them crazy, we pretty much accept this when going into such a conversation. I would consider that many would question your logic, but doubt that many would resort to calling you names. Though I do know an atheist around here that is questionable in this nature.


::shrug:: I don't know, I only report on what happened in my life.
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Postby EarthRise on Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:24 pm

MPTrooper wrote:I feel sorry for an Atheist because I honestly have no idea what they live for. Dispite all I have read from different blogs and websites I don't understand. What is the point in liveing for things of this world when nothing of this world will last? I can't see myself liveing like that.


Frankly, this statement ticks me off. An atheist (such as one in my position) can counter such a statement as follows:

The atheist creates his own purpose. The world need not last for one to realize that life itself is a distinctly unusual phenomenon, and one of which any human can take advantage. By contrast, one of, say, Christian leanings has his purpose handed to him, and lives for the exclusive purpose of dying. So, whilst one may provoke a very heated argument with such a declaration, it is a rather valid rebuttal.
[...] the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
-Darwin
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Postby FireFox on Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:20 pm

MPTrooper wrote:I feel sorry for an Atheist because I honestly have no idea what they live for. Dispite all I have read from different blogs and websites I don't understand. What is the point in liveing for things of this world when nothing of this world will last? I can't see myself liveing like that.


Nothing will last?
Are we talking about an absolute (cosmic) scale or a human lifetime scale. In the first I wonder as to the point of doing anything on this world when nothing of this world will survive the envitable Apocalypse, beyond pure self interest. On a human lifetime scale I can see many reasons.
For me personally there are three key reasons to live:
1) Reduce harm and suffering to humans and animals.
2) Rectify past damage to the environment
3) Expand human Knowledge
I know I can do these better the more 'free' time I have so any drain of time is counter productive to reaching these aims*

Just because one is an Atheist does not mean one has no morals nor should one only work to better the world because of some intangable future promise. (not refering to Christianity specifically, most religions have different scales of rewards for being 'good')

Steven
*yes the irony of me posting this on a web forum does not escape me, but then again I am waiting for someone to get their shit together before going to do conservation work
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Postby MPTrooper on Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:50 pm

I am not here to labal athiest as amoral. I stated I didn't understand the mindset of an Atheist, not that I think they are worthless or whatever.

I was simply responding to KidDirtys responce that he feels sorry for us religious types. I feel sorry for the non religious types.

In any case I'll keep this as my last post here. Religious debates and the like belong in different thread.

Please understand I meant no offense and I'm sorry if I was.
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Postby KidDirty on Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:32 pm

MPTrooper wrote:I'm referring to the web sites and demebstrations of someone tearing pages out of the Bible. If a "Christian" does that I must wonder at the strength of his or her Faith.


Okay, well it looked like the discussion was about Sam Harris and conversations with atheists. I don't see how some video you watched on youtube has any bearing on the subject of whether athists can have a religious conversation without being offensive.


MPTrooper wrote:I feel sorry for an Atheist because I honestly have no idea what they live for. Dispite all I have read from different blogs and websites I don't understand. What is the point in liveing for things of this world when nothing of this world will last? I can't see myself liveing like that.



Really? You can't see enough beauty and majesty in this world (even in the absence of a deity), to want to go on living for the simple purpose of keeping it going. Its all about life, and were the amazingly lucky ones who get to live it. Thats more than enough to keep me going!

The purpose of life, is just that, Life. The best we can hope to do is to make this place a little nicer for future generations. IMHO, thats it! And I for one am proud as hell to have been apart of it all.

Sure nothing will last indefinitely. In the absence of an afterlife, this is the one shot that we get, so we might as well make the most of it. It seems to me that atheists have even more reason to want to go on living. Sure I realize that one day our sun will explode and take everything here with it. But I am confident that somewhere else life will go on living. Where there is energy, life will find a way. This is what comforts me.
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