An Objective Review of FSMism

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An Objective Review of FSMism

Postby Antipasta on Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:35 pm

I'm sure by now, all of you who know me hate me. There are also those who claim I know nothing about FSMism. This thread is to show you that I do in fact know a great deal--more than you all will probably be willing to accept yourselves. No doubt, as you read what I have to say, some of you will want to send your insults and ridicule back, but I ask for the sake of intelligent debate, leave it somewhere else. When the argument is lost, all that is left is insult.

So with that said, allow me to begin, objectively viewing FSMism's positive and negative elements. I wouldn't post this debate if I hadn't put in much, much thought into this "belief" system. Please read the entire thing before replying; I promise it will be worth it.


Positive contributions FSMism makes to the world and society:

-It provides much needed comic relief in a terminally high-blood-pressure time of Evolution vs ID debates. People has gotten so upset over these decisions that picketing, boycotting, and civil unrest have arisen all over the nation. Providing something to laugh about within this realm is highly appreciated--by anyone with a sense of humor.

-It shows very, very clearly how science is the only thing that belongs in a science classroom. Anyone can put together a chart or graph depicting whatever crap they want, such as "There is a linear relationship between the number of catalytic converters on new cars and the number of AIDS victims in the world." Additionally, what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't. The point being that ID's scientific "proof" has nothing to do with their belief system either. It makes as much sense as proving the existence of a FSM with an inverse relationship between pirates and global temperatures.

-It provides a basis and a means of gathering for people who feel equally strong against ID being taught in public schools. They can meet people of similar mind sets and enjoy a community of, er, fellow believers. Everyone deserves a support group to learn and make new friendships. For those who feel strongest against this issue of ID, FSMism provides that.

-It gives bored people more things to do at work. (Don't let my boss read that)


Negative side-effects of FSMism:

-It manages to offend both ID supporters and anti-ID persons equally. (Unless you are eccentric enough to actually BE a Pastafarian) Allow me to explain:

ID supporters: This one is easy. Obviously those zealous enough to call for religious beliefs to be taught in public school science classes don't want to be told anything contrary to their beliefs. FSMism would obviously fit that description. Also, we can't forget that this entire religion (or whatever you wish to call it) was designed to specifically provoke and insult the ID theory, ID supporters, and members of the KC School Board. FSMism succeeds in adding fuel to an already hot fire. They're tense enough, sensitive enough, and angry enough as it is without somebody throwing this into the mix.

Anti-ID persons (i.e. Scientists, teachers, many, many citizens): People take this matter very seriously. At first glance, anyone would say more seriously than all of you. I know better, but most people don't. A flying spaghetti monster? HA!!! I know that it takes some level of sincerity and dedication to dress up like a pirate and preach to other in public (and consequently posting the video on youtube). However, to the rest of the world, FSMism looks like a gathering of village idiots who are delighting themselves in asininity; purposely subjecting themselves to derangement. I know it's your goal to make it look absurd, but your means defeat any possibility of attaining your purpose.
All this to say, there are a great many of anti-ID persons who take this matter as seriously (if not more so) than ID patrons themselves. Yes, I know many of you are among them, but you cannot possibly be taken as such. To these people, you are as much an insult to them as you are to ID defenders. A sad truth, but a truth nonetheless.

-While you are all having fun and while you might think you're accomplishing great things, you have accomplished but one: You're all making fools of yourselves. You are embarrassing my country. Believe me, having people teach religion in science class is embarrassing enough as it is. Look at our country's children's overall knowledge of science and math compared to the world! It's pitiful! And here KC School Board has one giant leap for mankind--backwards!
Some has to show these people how crazy this is, right? Make up a religion, write a letter, gather some followers? Sure. Perhaps that would evoke some common sense into their minds. Taking it to these lengths, writing a gospel, having people preach the word, watching followers permanently mark their bodies with symbols from a make-believe cult, that's too much. Now the world sees what a bunch of monkeys we become under pressure.
Having religion taught alongside all other educational departments is illogical. However, this is not the first time it has happened. In fact, looking back in history, it has almost always been taught with equal importance and implication. Religion guides people for the answers that science cannot provide. It is no wonder that it be placed higher in people's hearts.


Conclusions:
The only way you're going to convince any ID supporters is to appeal to their religious side; to their very being. Merely tossing scripture back in their faces accomplishes nothing but more anger and hatred. Throwing scientific fact does nothing either! They obviously don't want anything to do with it! They are as great a mystery to you as you pastafarians are to the world. Do you see how people hate you? And insult you? And make false accusations which, as much as you may not want to admit, really do hurt? No one wishes to be misunderstood. No one wants to accumulate hatred for themselves merely because they have been mistaken. You pastafarians are well intentioned, I've no doubt! What you fight for is the greater good, as you see it. Christians are fighting the same battle. But the truth is, many Christians and many Pastafarians have gone too far, or have used means which are inappropriate to support the nature of what they believe.

In your quest to show the KCSB how insane their decision is, and to show the rest of the country why religion in science class is absurd, you have insulted, angered, and hurt many people. And do you care? You care about your cause, certainly. But how much do you care about the people? I think you care a great deal, and if I'm right, I think you all would be better pleased with yourselves by implementing methods that accomplish your goals while also caring for the people involved. Your results would also be attainable. Your goals would very likely come to fruition.

I want you all to know I feel very much the same about Christian and ID zealots. I don't give these thoughts and feelings only to you, and I don't think too highly of myself either. I am still spiritually searching, but I do know that science, and only science, belongs in the science class. I appreciate all of you who have bothered to read the whole thing. I am willing to read and take to heart anything you also have to say.
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Postby Warlord of Elephants on Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:01 pm

For myself I don't 'hate' you; it's just not that big of a deal. Like FSM or don't. Come in here ten feet tall and farting fire and peeing in everyones Cheerios; don't be surprised when you get your nose tweaked.
I don't feel I am a 'follower' of Bobby Henderson; he came up with a letter that sums up my feelings on the matter very clearly and more humorously than I could. I am glad to be here; I enjoy some of the conversations and camaraderie. As for tattoos I've seen a bunch of 'em and a Pirate fish is no different than a 'Tweety bird' on peoples butts; not what I would get a tat of but hey hope it works for them. As the husband of a practitioner of Wicca I don't think anything I do/don't do is going to make the I.D. crowd very happy. The 'rest of the world' isn't always right; perhaps if the 'rest of the world' took the stick out of their (well you know) they might take just a little more joy in life, I for one refuse to wander around wondering if anybody is taking me seriously or not..... Don't know; don't care. Neither we or any other group is ever going to convince the I.D. crowd that their 'theory' doesn't belong in the classroom. The people who put it forth were using it as a 'Trojan horse' for religious instruction; they sound reasonable and intelligent thereby convincing others that their position is 'scientifically valid'. Bobby wrote a funny letter people have made of it what they will. As for upsetting the anti- I.D. crowd I have seen a plethora of letters supporting Mr Henderson. If you have any complaining about F.S.M. I would be interested in seeing them. As for becoming a bunch of monkeys (well at least apes) I urge you to read: "Our Inner Ape" by Frans de Waal. It would seem we already are.
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Re: An Objective Review of FSMism

Postby Duke on Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:32 pm

Antipasta wrote:I'm sure by now, all of you who know me hate me. There are also those who claim I know nothing about FSMism. This thread is to show you that I do in fact know a great deal--more than you all will probably be willing to accept yourselves. No doubt, as you read what I have to say, some of you will want to send your insults and ridicule back, but I ask for the sake of intelligent debate, leave it somewhere else. When the argument is lost, all that is left is insult.

So with that said, allow me to begin, objectively viewing FSMism's positive and negative elements. I wouldn't post this debate if I hadn't put in much, much thought into this "belief" system. Please read the entire thing before replying; I promise it will be worth it.


Positive contributions FSMism makes to the world and society:

-It provides much needed comic relief in a terminally high-blood-pressure time of Evolution vs ID debates. People has gotten so upset over these decisions that picketing, boycotting, and civil unrest have arisen all over the nation. Providing something to laugh about within this realm is highly appreciated--by anyone with a sense of humor.

-It shows very, very clearly how science is the only thing that belongs in a science classroom. Anyone can put together a chart or graph depicting whatever crap they want, such as "There is a linear relationship between the number of catalytic converters on new cars and the number of AIDS victims in the world." Additionally, what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't. The point being that ID's scientific "proof" has nothing to do with their belief system either. It makes as much sense as proving the existence of a FSM with an inverse relationship between pirates and global temperatures.

-It provides a basis and a means of gathering for people who feel equally strong against ID being taught in public schools. They can meet people of similar mind sets and enjoy a community of, er, fellow believers. Everyone deserves a support group to learn and make new friendships. For those who feel strongest against this issue of ID, FSMism provides that.

-It gives bored people more things to do at work. (Don't let my boss read that)


Negative side-effects of FSMism:

-It manages to offend both ID supporters and anti-ID persons equally. (Unless you are eccentric enough to actually BE a Pastafarian) Allow me to explain:

ID supporters: This one is easy. Obviously those zealous enough to call for religious beliefs to be taught in public school science classes don't want to be told anything contrary to their beliefs. FSMism would obviously fit that description. Also, we can't forget that this entire religion (or whatever you wish to call it) was designed to specifically provoke and insult the ID theory, ID supporters, and members of the KC School Board. FSMism succeeds in adding fuel to an already hot fire. They're tense enough, sensitive enough, and angry enough as it is without somebody throwing this into the mix.

Anti-ID persons (i.e. Scientists, teachers, many, many citizens): People take this matter very seriously. At first glance, anyone would say more seriously than all of you. I know better, but most people don't. A flying spaghetti monster? HA!!! I know that it takes some level of sincerity and dedication to dress up like a pirate and preach to other in public (and consequently posting the video on youtube). However, to the rest of the world, FSMism looks like a gathering of village idiots who are delighting themselves in asininity; purposely subjecting themselves to derangement. I know it's your goal to make it look absurd, but your means defeat any possibility of attaining your purpose.
All this to say, there are a great many of anti-ID persons who take this matter as seriously (if not more so) than ID patrons themselves. Yes, I know many of you are among them, but you cannot possibly be taken as such. To these people, you are as much an insult to them as you are to ID defenders. A sad truth, but a truth nonetheless.

-While you are all having fun and while you might think you're accomplishing great things, you have accomplished but one: You're all making fools of yourselves. You are embarrassing my country. Believe me, having people teach religion in science class is embarrassing enough as it is. Look at our country's children's overall knowledge of science and math compared to the world! It's pitiful! And here KC School Board has one giant leap for mankind--backwards!
Some has to show these people how crazy this is, right? Make up a religion, write a letter, gather some followers? Sure. Perhaps that would evoke some common sense into their minds. Taking it to these lengths, writing a gospel, having people preach the word, watching followers permanently mark their bodies with symbols from a make-believe cult, that's too much. Now the world sees what a bunch of monkeys we become under pressure.
Having religion taught alongside all other educational departments is illogical. However, this is not the first time it has happened. In fact, looking back in history, it has almost always been taught with equal importance and implication. Religion guides people for the answers that science cannot provide. It is no wonder that it be placed higher in people's hearts.


Conclusions:
The only way you're going to convince any ID supporters is to appeal to their religious side; to their very being. Merely tossing scripture back in their faces accomplishes nothing but more anger and hatred. Throwing scientific fact does nothing either! They obviously don't want anything to do with it! They are as great a mystery to you as you pastafarians are to the world. Do you see how people hate you? And insult you? And make false accusations which, as much as you may not want to admit, really do hurt? No one wishes to be misunderstood. No one wants to accumulate hatred for themselves merely because they have been mistaken. You pastafarians are well intentioned, I've no doubt! What you fight for is the greater good, as you see it. Christians are fighting the same battle. But the truth is, many Christians and many Pastafarians have gone too far, or have used means which are inappropriate to support the nature of what they believe.

In your quest to show the KCSB how insane their decision is, and to show the rest of the country why religion in science class is absurd, you have insulted, angered, and hurt many people. And do you care? You care about your cause, certainly. But how much do you care about the people? I think you care a great deal, and if I'm right, I think you all would be better pleased with yourselves by implementing methods that accomplish your goals while also caring for the people involved. Your results would also be attainable. Your goals would very likely come to fruition.

I want you all to know I feel very much the same about Christian and ID zealots. I don't give these thoughts and feelings only to you, and I don't think too highly of myself either. I am still spiritually searching, but I do know that science, and only science, belongs in the science class. I appreciate all of you who have bothered to read the whole thing. I am willing to read and take to heart anything you also have to say.


You truly do underestimate us Pastafarians. The amount of people here who "hate" you might be lower than you might be lower than you think. The amount of people who think you are a vapidly uninformed cretin who has an inordinate amount of time to go about spreading your half-baked thoughts might be a little higher, but hate, no. And heck, if you do show us that you do in fact have some clue as to what you are talking about, I'm sure we would be perfectly willing to accept that. Please prove us wrong. And if insult is what appears when argument is lost, then you might reconsider your stance. Anyway.

I agree, the Flying Spaghetti Monster does bring a sense of humor to the ID debate. Do you know what a reductio ad absurdum argument is? You see, by putting into perspective how ridiculous teaching faith in science class is, whether it be Pastafarian or Intelligent Design faith, Pastafarianism makes a point.
Advocates of "Intelligent Design" may feel offended, their belief in intelligent designers being compared to a belief in an intelligent Spaghetti Being, but once you get down to it, what's the difference?

You seem to think that the misinterpretation of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is somehow a negative point. If someone doesn't understand what you are trying to say, does that mean you're wrong? If anti-ID people are, for some bizarre reason, offended, or if they do not understand the less-than-subtle irony in Pastafarianism, then there's nothing wrong with that. We can explain, and if fault lies anywhere, it's not with us.
To the rest of the world, Pastafarianism doesn't look like a gathering of village idiots, it puzzles me that you make that claim. Perhaps you meant, "to the rest of the world cruelly lacking a sense of humor or the ability to understand irony or sarcasm"?

You say that the FSM embarrasses your country; could we get a letter from your country confirming that? Thanks! Is there something that your country has against sarcasm? Just wondering!

I don't think we need to convice ID supporters of anything. I don't think we need to appeal to any side of them. All we have to do is to beat them (in court, the most common battleground). So far, so good. Maybe post-legal-humiliation, they'll go away.

See, people hating or insulting something they don't understand never seems to be a persistent, constant problem. Before long they realize their error.

You seem to be under the belief that we have insulted, angered, and hurt many (confused) people. When did we get this much attention, exactly? :roll:

If you feel the same way about a parody religion as you do towards Intelligent Design advocate and (other) fundamentalist Christians, then I'm not sure you quite understand the situation. I'm sure we can help.


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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:47 pm

ok antipasta, you don't agree with pastafarianism. that's great. it works for me, so I'm sticking with it. life goes on.

but what do you want? not to be accusatory; I'm just confused. what are you trying to get us to do? you're presuasively saying the pros and cons (and saying the cons outweight the pros) in a well-thought out post. but then what? you don't agree with pastafarianism, I do, life goes on.

do you want us to stop the movement (or organization. either of those is what I call pastafarianism, not a religion)? do you want us to change our tactis? what? I honestly can't tell.

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Re: An Objective Review of FSMism

Postby MPTrooper on Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:00 pm

Antipasta wrote:Negative side-effects of FSMism:

-While you are all having fun and while you might think you're accomplishing great things, you have accomplished but one: You're all making fools of yourselves. You are embarrassing my country. Believe me, having people teach religion in science class is embarrassing enough as it is. Look at our country's children's overall knowledge of science and math compared to the world! It's pitiful! And here KC School Board has one giant leap for mankind--backwards!


You're country? Which one would that be? If it's the good ol' USA then you should be pleased to know that at least a half dozen of her noble soldiers call this forum home, me included. I SURE as hell am not an "embarrassment" to MY country. Try not to make an ass of yourself by making such broad and general statements.
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:05 am

well MP, that might not be entirely convicing, as some people think the U.S. army is an embarassment to the country.

but really, it all depends on your view point. I mean, I live it in, so its MY country, ininnit? I mean, my is a possesive word, and If I live in a country, that means I posses or own it, so I can make any kind of statement about embarassement I want!

oh wait, where were we?

oh right, MP kills people for a living. *showers him with glory*

:D

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Postby The Dead Parrot on Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:33 am

Well, I read your arguments, and I don't think that many people (besides IDists) would be offended by this. It really actually supports the view of the Non-IDists, so why would it offend them? Unless they were so closed-minded and couldn't recognize sarcasm if it ran up and bit them on the nose, of course. And most who are intelligent enough to not support IDism I assume doesn't have either of these qualities.

Also, why can't Pastafarianism be taught in schools? It is just as plausible that Pastafarianism is correct as Christianity - I mean, IDism is.
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Postby SC-Pastafarian on Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:43 am

I absolutely agree with all the positives you listed.

However... I fail to see how this is offensive to non-ID supporters. Is this a fun satire? Yes. Is it the only thing Pastafarians use in their fights against ID in science? No. When the time is right, we are all serious people.

Embarrassing your country? Well, I'm assuming here that we are from the same country, but I can think of a number of other things going on that are embarrassing. A group of people using some political/religious humor is hardly near the top of my list. So someone got a piratefish tattoo... OH WELL. I have a tattoo of a humpback whale on my ankle, my sister has a Norweigan ship on her shoulder (among other things), my friend has something that I think resembles the Blob. If I saw that pirate fish not knowing what its background is, I'd still think its a pretty sweet looking design... probably not my first (or second choice), but the beauty of that is... its not my body. Hell, I know people who have gotten the Democratic donkey tattooed on themselves.

There are a number of religious people who are part of this. There are lots who believe in God (the non-noodly kind) or some other higher being. They're not offended. There are always those who won't agree with what we stand for... they're not going to change to matter what way its presented, religious or not. Serious reason doesn't always get through to people. Sometimes it takes a little satire for them to realize what they're saying. We don't at all stand against what they believe and many fail to recognize that. What we stand against is where what they believe should and shouldn't be taught.
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Postby Duke on Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:12 am

SC-Pastafarian wrote:I absolutely agree with all the positives you listed.

However... I fail to see how this is offensive to non-ID supporters. Is this a fun satire? Yes. Is it the only thing Pastafarians use in their fights against ID in science? No. When the time is right, we are all serious people.


It's offensive to non-ID supporters because he's a non-ID supporter and he's offended, although he's not sure why, or he doesn't quite want to tell us. That's why it's offensive to non-ID supporters.


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An Objective Review of FSMism

Postby neeter on Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:30 am

I think you are on to something, DUke.
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Postby Qwertyuiopasd on Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:03 am

Duke wrote:
It's offensive to non-ID supporters because he's a non-ID supporter and he's offended, although he's not sure why, or he doesn't quite want to tell us. That's why it's offensive to non-ID supporters.




from reading his post, I wouldn't say he's offended by FSMism, more... displeased with it? but I agree it seems as thought he's not sure why or he dosen't want to tell us, but that's becuase he hasn't clearley conveyed that yet. he may have thought he had, but not.

Benefit of the doubt is a strong ideal here, and it dosen't pertain to just "don't assume someone means offense"

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Postby Finrod on Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:20 am

Hmmmm, I guess I'm a bit confused by this whole diatribe;

What is your purpose here?

Is this some form of weird drive-by shooting?

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Postby Pastafarian Pirate on Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:48 am

I am not trying to convince ID supporters... I came for the punch and pie.

:pirate_fish: :pirate_fish: :pirate_fish:
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Postby Capellini on Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:44 pm

Richard Dawkins is heartbroken to find he's no longer a member of the scientific elite.

Anti-ID persons (i.e. Scientists, teachers, many, many citizens): People take this matter very seriously. At first glance, anyone would say more seriously than all of you. I know better, but most people don't. A flying spaghetti monster? HA!!! I know that it takes some level of sincerity and dedication to dress up like a pirate and preach to other in public (and consequently posting the video on youtube). However, to the rest of the world, FSMism looks like a gathering of village idiots who are delighting themselves in asininity; purposely subjecting themselves to derangement. I know it's your goal to make it look absurd, but your means defeat any possibility of attaining your purpose.
All this to say, there are a great many of anti-ID persons who take this matter as seriously (if not more so) than ID patrons themselves. Yes, I know many of you are among them, but you cannot possibly be taken as such. To these people, you are as much an insult to them as you are to ID defenders. A sad truth, but a truth nonetheless.


You need to do some research. A large proportion of the people here are themselves scientists, researchers, etc. We've got Masters and PhDs, as well as candidates for both, and professionals in the fields of medicine, physics, biology, pyschology, anthropology, and more. Those people who spend time talking to the people here, and learning about the purpose of this forum will learn the following things:

We take this very seriously.

Our interest is in increasing our own ranks, and making this place as well-honed as possible in regards to the goals of furthering scholarly discussion, spreading the word that ID is just plain silliness (or meaner words if you haven't had your coffee yet), and especially encouraging the exchange of ideas between groups who wouldn't be inclined or encouraged to do so elsewhere. Whether or not people that don't have the brains or willingness to learn about us take us seriously is none of our concern.
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Postby Duke on Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:59 pm

Qwertyuiopasd wrote:
Duke wrote:
It's offensive to non-ID supporters because he's a non-ID supporter and he's offended, although he's not sure why, or he doesn't quite want to tell us. That's why it's offensive to non-ID supporters.




from reading his post, I wouldn't say he's offended by FSMism, more... displeased with it? but I agree it seems as thought he's not sure why or he dosen't want to tell us, but that's becuase he hasn't clearley conveyed that yet. he may have thought he had, but not.

Benefit of the doubt is a strong ideal here, and it dosen't pertain to just "don't assume someone means offense"

~Qwerty


By reading this post showcased here and his other posts, I would say if he's not "offended" (it's his choice of words), he holds dislike for Pastafarianism. Whether that stems from personal or impersonal offense is another issue, but I'd say it does.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he's just trying to tell us how other people might feel.







:D :roll: Just kidding.


Duke
"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards."

--Mark Twain


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

--Friedrich Nietzsche


"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever."

--Woody Allen
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Duke
Prophet of Pastafarianism
 
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