The Hipocracy!

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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Tigger_the_Wing on Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:34 am

Moe Sunkist wrote:Well, im not quite sure where i am supposed to go with this. All i can say is that I am a Christian and have been since the October '07. I would love to enlighten you guys about the love of Jesus Christ. As for the issue of hypocrisy i have this to say: Jesus Christ, a man that can be proven exists as much as any other man back in the day, was crucified. And during his life, He spent it believing He was the Son of the heavenly God, and performed miracles in His name. This lead me to three choices.

1.) He is a crazy man who didnt know anything and was probly dropped on His head as a babe.
2.) He is a liar who wanted to become famous fro being the King of the Jews.
3.) He was the Messiah, the Son of God, the Redeemer of Man.

I cannot believe the first to be true, because of the miracles professed by those around Him, and that He would inspire so many to follow in His footsteps to death 2000 years later.
The second could very well be plausible, except for why would this man go through the most humiliating and painful death. Would He really be willing to go that far to be famous? You cant be receive that type of fame and recognition if you are dead. Oh and not once did he claim to be lying upon the cross.
So that leaves door number three. This to me was a big help in understanding my faith when i was struggling. I can see where everyone gets there point across, on how it takes the same amount of faith to believe in a flying blob of noodles, but is it really. Most things i have read on here have been jokes, jokes on God and Jesus, jokes on even your FSM. So much for your faith.

God bless. I love you, and in Jesus's perfect name i pray for you,
your humble servant Moe.


I know that trick. I use it on my kids and grandkids when I want them to do or believe something. In among some preposterous suggestions I bury the one I want them to do/believe. Easy to predict which one they'll pick! But, as others have pointed out, your list isn't exhaustive; there are many more options!

None of the existing New Testament was written contemporaneously and none of it in English. Even so, despite extensive study I have never found anywhere written that Jesus considered himself to be anything other than fully human and no more (or less) a part of God than any of us!

The 'King of the Jews' thing was a joke by the Romans! Have you actually read the New Testament? Obviously not in the Hebrew/Aramaic or Greek but even in any English translations?

The Catholic Church went to a lot of trouble to compile those particular scriptures into their Holy book - the least those of you of other Christian sects could do is actually read them!

And our Pastafarian 'faith' is a joke. In other words, if it is impossible to know the form of God, He might as well be represented by a Flying Spaghetti Monster! The major tenet of this place is respect - anyone may believe whatever they wish and no-one is allowed to mock them or attempt to make them believe anything else.

A lot of Christians mock us AND try to make us believe what they believe; that is disrepectful! We call them out for their disrespect, NOT their faith as that is a matter for them and them alone!
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby PKMKII on Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:32 pm

Another problem with your analysis, Moe, is that you're completely removing it from the cultural context of the time. Why would someone want to be the king of the jews, even if that meant death? The reason, and the reason there were actually a lot jews running around at the time claiming to be the savior, is that in judaism the savior is not a spiritual one but rather a militant savior, one who would throw off the oppressors of the jews. So someone at that time would have claimed to be the king of the jews because they wanted to overthrow the Roman Empire. The modern notion of jesus is, IMHO, an amalgamation of these rebels against the Romans as an archetype, combined with the spiritual savior notion as found in the cults of the era that worshiped gods such as Dionysus, Osiris, and Mithras
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Moe Sunkist on Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:59 pm

I have time only for a quick reply on here and i apologize if it disappoints, but i have read the New Testament and the Old Testament as well as study it in detail with several buddies of mine. =P

Oh i also like that one of the gods that PKMKII chose was the Greek? or was it Roman? god of drunken revelry. The god of wine. xD Yay for Dionysus. Oh, and his follwers were violent people who went around killing people in their drunken rampages. (that sounds a bit bitter, but i dont want to soften it up...)
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby PKMKII on Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:14 pm

Moe Sunkist wrote:Oh i also like that one of the gods that PKMKII chose was the Greek? or was it Roman? god of drunken revelry. The god of wine. xD Yay for Dionysus. Oh, and his follwers were violent people who went around killing people in their drunken rampages. (that sounds a bit bitter, but i dont want to soften it up...)


As opposed to Jesus, who had followers that burnt people at the stake, tortured people until they either died or converted (and then killed them), and wiped out the knowledge of civilizations simply because those civilizations weren't christian. :tongue:
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Moe Sunkist on Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:23 pm

Lol, i gotta come here with both my guns fully loaded.

And that would be the Catholics, not the Christians. Big difference. I cannot think of a non-Catholic instance where protestant christians attacked others to force them to convert. Catholics do. and they are proud of it. =P
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby daftbeaker on Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:42 pm

Moe Sunkist wrote:Lol, i gotta come here with both my guns fully loaded.

And that would be the Catholics, not the Christians. Big difference. I cannot think of a non-Catholic instance where protestant christians attacked others to force them to convert.

Northern Ireland? Britain in the mid-to-late Tudor period (particularly after Mary died)? Subjugation of Native Americans (the whole manifest destiny and taming the savages bit)? Salem witchcraft trials?

Edit- Forgot this bit.

Moe Sunkist wrote:And during his life, He spent it believing He was the Son of the heavenly God, and performed miracles in His name. This lead me to three choices.

1.) He is a crazy man who didnt know anything and was probly dropped on His head as a babe.
2.) He is a liar who wanted to become famous fro being the King of the Jews.
3.) He was the Messiah, the Son of God, the Redeemer of Man.

I cannot believe the first to be true, because of the miracles professed by those around Him, and that He would inspire so many to follow in His footsteps to death 2000 years later.

So what you're saying is that several millenia ago, in a period we know relatively little about with uncertainty about the reliability of sources, a man claimed to be the son of god and he and his followers claimed he could perform miracles. Millenia later, people still follow the teachings ascribed to him and you can't believe they might be wrong?
You're basing your whole faith on being unwilling to accept that maybe some bits were exaggerated, that Jesus may well, as Eddie Izzard put it, have been an interesting guy with good ideas in a relaxed and groovy way whose story has been inflated over 20 centuries?

I'm sorry if this sounds sarcastic but I don't get the Argument from Incredulity.
Moe Sunkist wrote:All i can say is that I am a Christian and have been since the October '07.

Why did you become a christian? Your post sounds fairly mature so I'm assuming you're at least 20 or so. What did you believe (if anything) before? Was there any specific event that converted or helped convert you? This isn't an attempt to make you feel uncomfortable, I'm genuinely interested as just about all the christians I meet have been brought up believing and I wondered what makes people join later in life.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything - Friedrich Nietzsche

But why is the rum gone?!
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby PKMKII on Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:48 pm

Moe Sunkist wrote:Lol, i gotta come here with both my guns fully loaded.

And that would be the Catholics, not the Christians. Big difference. I cannot think of a non-Catholic instance where protestant christians attacked others to force them to convert. Catholics do. and they are proud of it. =P


Well according to them, they're the true christians and protestants aren't "real" christians.

Mind you, I'm not bringing this stuff up to attack christianity, I'm just pointing out that you can't judge the merits of a religion on the activity of its followers.
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Moe Sunkist on Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:59 pm

Irish are Catholics. "Bloody" Mary was a Catholic who killed many protestants, and they might have retailiated once they were in power, though im not sure if she was a tudor. I have, however no defense for i had forgotten about the Salem Witchcraft trials. The native americans was under the ruse of conquering them for Christianity but not for converting them per se. But manifest destiny was also God's will that America should reach the Pacific. Yes, messionaries were sent but no one was forced to convert under torture or on pain o' death. It was mainly people like Andrew Jackson who was slightly crazy and rather enjoyed killing things. Oh, and we mustn't forget Daniel Boone and Davy Crocket, they liked killing too. But these are really good points.

Not to seem picky, but the witch trials did not involve people being tortured to convert to their faith per se, either. Most of the people accused had land that a neighbor wanted, were just a random person's vitcim to gain attention to herself (as in the Crucible). But it was all in the name of religion, however everyone was already a christian, and was not converted back. I do know that sounded really picky but it was the best i could come up with.
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby daftbeaker on Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:03 pm

Moe Sunkist wrote:Irish are Catholics.

No, some irish people are catholic. In case you hadn't noticed there's been a bit of trouble there in the last 30 years and it's difficult to have fighting with just one side.
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything - Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Moe Sunkist on Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:07 pm

I understand that you are not attack Christianity, but I also believe that, based of the Bible, the source of Christian knowledge that Catholics are incorrect in their teachings. Jesus teaches a personal relationship with Himself to gain salvation. Catholics believe that all people who are baptized are allowed into heaven as long as they have been prayed out of purgatory. Also not one of the biblical tenants to salvation. And where is the Pope mentioned in the Bible?

Well, beaker, you brought up the Irish to make a point about a long time ago when they fought the British because they werent Catholics. And most irish are catholics to spite the british for trying to "enforce Anglicanism" upon them. And no i hadnt noticed the trouble.
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby daftbeaker on Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:18 pm

Moe Sunkist wrote:Well, beaker, you brought up the Irish to make a point about a long time ago when they fought the British because they werent Catholics. And most irish are catholics to spite the british for trying to "enforce Anglicanism" upon them. And no i hadnt noticed the trouble.

No, the majority of Ireland is catholic because catholicism was christianity before Martin Luther and the Reformation. As Ireland wasn't a part of the UK the Reformation didn't apply to them (England, Scotland, Wales only). Come the end of the English Civil war Cromwell (the fanatical protestant who banned christmas) invaded Ireland and set about wiping out the irish catholic 'savages'. It was the closest Britain has come to genocide. Following on from the protestant occupation of Ireland was continued discrimination against catholics for several hundred years. If you really think the irish are predominantly catholic 'to spite the english' you need your head examined.

I brought it up to make the point that protestants are more than capable of using religion as an excuse for violence as well as the catholics. One I forgot, the Reformation. Henry VIII set about nicking everything the catholic monasteries had and persecuting the priests, all because he couldn't get a divorce and was running out of money.
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Ubi Dubium on Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:44 pm

PKMKII wrote:.. I'm just pointing out that you can't judge the merits of a religion on the activity of its followers.

Actually, I'd say that the only way to just the merits of a religion is by the activity of its followers. But I don't think you can judge the truth of a religion by those activities.

I had to laugh at Moe's protestations that Catholics aren't "True Christians". It's so easy to just dismiss groups you disapprove of by saying they arent "True Christians".

Moe Sunkist wrote:Irish are Catholics. "Bloody" Mary was a Catholic who killed many protestants, and they might have retailiated once they were in power, though im not sure if she was a tudor. I have, however no defense for i had forgotten about the Salem Witchcraft trials. The native americans was under the ruse of conquering them for Christianity but not for converting them per se. But manifest destiny was also God's will that America should reach the Pacific. Yes, messionaries were sent but no one was forced to convert under torture or on pain o' death. It was mainly people like Andrew Jackson who was slightly crazy and rather enjoyed killing things. Oh, and we mustn't forget Daniel Boone and Davy Crocket, they liked killing too. But these are really good points.

Wow, you need to leave your guns at home and bring a history book instead. "Bloody Mary" was indeed a Tudor, preceded by Protestant Edward VI(Tudor), a child, whose reign was marred by persecutions of Catholics by those Protestants actually running the country, and she was succeeded by Elizabeth I (Tudor), also Protestant. Later, in the English Civil War, the Protestants overthrew the Catholic King Charles I and chopped his head off.

Sorry - "Manifest Destiny" was a sad excuse for exterminating native Americans to grab their land. Lots of countries and religious groups have used "it's the will of god" to excuse any atrocity they feel like committing. That's why religion is considered by the powerful to be "useful".

And the Salem Witch trials were just the tail end of a long history of European witch trials. I've read estimates that 40,000-100,000 people were killed for witchcraft in Europe during the years of witch-hunt hysteria. They happened in both Catholic and Protestant areas of Europe. Rather than admit that an "omnipotent" god would allow horrible things to happen to good people, apparently people would rather find an innocent human being and blame them for all their troubles. Typical human nature.

And remember Moe - the Catholics you claim don't follow the bible are the ones who compiled it in the first place. They decided, by committee, which versions of which books should be included, and which omitted.
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Buccaneer Banzai on Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:03 pm

Ubi Dubium wrote:
PKMKII wrote:.. I'm just pointing out that you can't judge the merits of a religion on the activity of its followers.

Actually, I'd say that the only way to just the merits of a religion is by the activity of its followers. But I don't think you can judge the truth of a religion by those activities.

I had to laugh at Moe's protestations that Catholics aren't "True Christians". It's so easy to just dismiss groups you disapprove of by saying they arent "True Christians".

Moe Sunkist wrote:Irish are Catholics. "Bloody" Mary was a Catholic who killed many protestants, and they might have retailiated once they were in power, though im not sure if she was a tudor. I have, however no defense for i had forgotten about the Salem Witchcraft trials. The native americans was under the ruse of conquering them for Christianity but not for converting them per se. But manifest destiny was also God's will that America should reach the Pacific. Yes, messionaries were sent but no one was forced to convert under torture or on pain o' death. It was mainly people like Andrew Jackson who was slightly crazy and rather enjoyed killing things. Oh, and we mustn't forget Daniel Boone and Davy Crocket, they liked killing too. But these are really good points.

Wow, you need to leave your guns at home and bring a history book instead. "Bloody Mary" was indeed a Tudor, preceded by Protestant Edward VI(Tudor), a child, whose reign was marred by persecutions of Catholics by those Protestants actually running the country, and she was succeeded by Elizabeth I (Tudor), also Protestant. Later, in the English Civil War, the Protestants overthrew the Catholic King Charles I and chopped his head off.

Sorry - "Manifest Destiny" was a sad excuse for exterminating native Americans to grab their land. Lots of countries and religious groups have used "it's the will of god" to excuse any atrocity they feel like committing. That's why religion is considered by the powerful to be "useful".

And the Salem Witch trials were just the tail end of a long history of European witch trials. I've read estimates that 40,000-100,000 people were killed for witchcraft in Europe during the years of witch-hunt hysteria. They happened in both Catholic and Protestant areas of Europe. Rather than admit that an "omnipotent" god would allow horrible things to happen to good people, apparently people would rather find an innocent human being and blame them for all their troubles. Typical human nature.

And remember Moe - the Catholics you claim don't follow the bible are the ones who compiled it in the first place. They decided, by committee, which versions of which books should be included, and which omitted.


YAAARRRGGHHH!!! RAmen, me hearty, Brother Ubi!! Was it not the "will of Allah" that compelled 19 murderers to commit acts of horror on 9/11? Be careful how ye interpret ye Semolina's will, mateys!! I don't like to mix politics with pasta, but I felt this needed to be said....may the sauce be upon ye,

Zip :fsm:
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Donny on Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

By His noodly appendages! How are we suppose to keep score of who are Christians with out a card? A lot of Moe's argument sounds like it came for The Alpha Course. As far as I could ever tell Christians are a vindictive blood thirsty lot. The religion has been used for controlling the masses (no pun intended) for as long as it has existed. The teachings of Jesus have never been at the forefront of any of its many sects. Money and greed appear to be the driving force that keeps it alive today. That and the great hair that it’s many preachers can affored. ARRRGH!!. :furious:
It's only material existence, don't take it to seriously.
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Re: The Hipocracy!

Postby Ubi Dubium on Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:14 pm

Welcome Buccaneer Banzai, from "Sister" Ubi. (That's a great avatar, by the way!)

You've nailed the basic problem with following the "will of god". If you allow yourself to believe so thoroughly in the "will of god" that you allow it to trump your common sense and basic decency, then you have allowed yourself to be a possible tool for use by the unscrupulous, who proclaim "god's will" to accomplish their own agenda. All the 9/11 hijackers were certain that they were doing "god's will".

My Fundie Brother-in-Law (Ubi Credulus) once gave my kids a VeggieTales movie about Joshua, whose basic message was "do what god tells you to do, even if it doesn't make any sense". We use this movie as a cautionary tale, about the dangers of blind obedience.
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