swickstrum wrote:The amazing thing to me, a Christian, is that anyone - Christian or non - would dedicate this much time to proving or disproving anything at all. What is leading you to do such? Just your "sense of humor (or humour, as the British – who, with such an irritating irreverence to real English continue to misspell this word…lol)?”
I think I am most bewildered by the assertion that anything is not worth proving or disproving. The more I think about this, the more positive I am that this is the most basic and elemental function in our lives. What's real, and what's not? What's valid, and what's not?
We're talking about knowledge and wisdom, and the pursuit thereof. We're talking about critical thinking, and we're talking about "An unexamined life is not worth living." We're talking, "I think, therefore I am." We're talking about your own beliefs versus mine. We're talking about voting and democracy.
We're talking about AMERICA. (Yea, it is a concept so holy that I mustcanshould resort to the ALLCAPS. Yahooey.)
We're talking about the potential, and the obligation to grow and to challenge your old beliefs, and move on and become a different person. We're talking about the possibility for you to evolve and become smarter and better, faster and stronger. We're talking about organic and spontaneous versus stagnant and ... awful. Terrible? Yes, terrible.
We're talking about your right to change your mind. (While it is, indeed, your prerogative, I say to Shania Twain, to hell with thee. It is not just a woman's right; it is a human right.)
You should, must, question everything that comes your way in life. Think for yourself! Demand citations that be needed! Think for yourself! Think for yourself! Vote! Think for yourself! You have opposable thumbs, for crissakes! Think for for yourself! We are the stewards of the universe, and we have been blessed with self-awareness and neuroticism, intelligence and skepticism. Think for your effin self, goddammit!
Gentle reader, your life should be dedicated to proving and disproving everything and anything at all.
swickstrum wrote:It seems to me that you are overly concerned with things that do not concern you.
Wha? Fha-wha? Blargin floogin whatsin?
swickstrum wrote: Let me ask you a question, please. If you do not care whether or not a person believes in God, and by God, I include the Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then why do you insist on driving people away from Him?
I reject your premise, on one condition. I do not care whether or not your person worships Jesus. I do care, passionately, however, when Jesus worshippers become strong enough in number, and loud enough in voice, to affect public policy, politics, education, foreign relations. At that point, I think it is detrimental and deleterious to our society.
At that point, I believe it is my obligation as a US citizen to say that your religion is poisoning my country, and so, if it pleases you, to hell with your religion!
But, if I may be so bold as to speak on behalf of the FSM community, I would would then like to reiterate that we do not care who you whoreship, or who you revere as The One True God, and we will never, nay ever, drive anybody away from your god.
How can Jesus hurt the people who do not believe in Him?
Assuming that by "Jesus," you mean modern Christians, then I submit for your approval, the Inquisition. Abstinence Only sex education. The Crusades. Discrimination against gays. The Salem Witch Hunt. The damnation of all non-believers to hell.
The targets of these figurative and literal slaughters are all people who "do not believe in him."
I am positive that you anticipated this response, too, because you don't seem, from your grammar and sentence structure, to be stupid. Why would you leave yourself open to such a refutation?
swickstrum wrote: If you do not believe, then do not believe, fine. The problem with all this FSM mess is that you are leading people who may have become good and powerful Christians astray.
I think you might be confusing FSMism with a religion that competes with Christianity. FSMism is not a religion. I would go so far as to say it is a non-religion. The movement has its origins in denouncing giving Christian Origin mythology unfair and undue attention in science classes in public schools.
I was an atheist for a few years, and looked at all the theories, facts, and theories (I repeated the word twice, don’t think it was by accident) and the thing I found was that no one has a clue where we really came from. Yes, Darwin has great ideas, and those ideas have been perpetuated throughout the last century and a half to show more of the same. But the fact is, no one knows, and to be honest – the facts just DO NOT support evolution, and if you really look, with an open mind, you will see that what I say is true.
There are really no records of history that go beyond Biblical times, and I kept coming back to that fact. If we have been around for Millions (perhaps Billions) of years, where is the documentation, stone or otherwise? Why is it that over the last 2000 years our civilization has become so advanced… so advanced that I can type these words on a screen, as never before? I do not have an answer for these questions, nor does anyone – although someone surely thinks they do.
Previous posters in this thread have satisfactorily addressed this silly, silly claim and line of reasoning.
Back to my original question, in paragraph three, what is the reason for this whole movement? Why are some so concerned with what others believe…to the point of calling those who do believe in God idiots? Why is it offensive that there might be another possibility other than evolution? Are you not the “open-minded” people you claim to be? Can there be NO other possibility… really? Since there is no proof, do we have to limit our schools to one possibility; and not let the students decide? This is not math, there is not a law that tells us how exactly things work.
Don't get me wrong. Believing in God is idiocy. (But it is a strange, separate, and unique idiocy. There are may smart, intelligent, decent people who believe in God. It is an anomaly that I have yet to understand.) But you are entitled to your idiocy. It is your God given right!
You pray to your god in the evenings and worship him in the mornings. I will feed my dog in the evenings and walk him in the mornings. Blessings on everyone, and peace upon mankind. Amen. Woof woof.
I used to live a path inverse to yours. You said you were once an atheist. I was, in my youth, a devout, Bible-thumping Christian. And even as such I happily accepted evolution, because even at 15 years old I knew that there could be no such thing as a literal interpretation of the Bible, and so I did not believe that creation happened in seven days, but that evolution was the means through which God chose to develop, direct and create life.
What I mean to say is that I don't think your religion has to preclude science.
And, incidentally, your wording here seems to imply a misconception of the technical definitions of scientific law, and scientific theory. Not condescendingly, do you understand why the Law of Thermodynamics is a law, and the Theory of Gravity is a theory?
Oh, but science is so advanced now, we know what is going on…really? Scientists used to think that the earth was flat, scientists used to think that the sun rotated around the earth, scientists used to think that drilling into a human’s skull would help them work their problems out (as a matter of fact, the best group of scientists in the world gave Egas Moniz the Nobel Peace Prize for the Lobotomy in 1949…just 59 years ago). Oh how times have changed. What idiots we were, drilling into a skull…wow! But back in the 1800’s Darwin came up with evolution and that is still respected? We cannot prove nor disprove this flawed science.
I think you have hit on a major selling point of science, a major reason why it is a superior belief system: it is self-correcting. I challenge you to find as many theological issues that the Church has as readily and happily accepted as incorrect, and in need of reevaluation and redefinition.
But to give credit where it is due, modern science was born of the ancient Church. Obviously. The Church used to be the only authority on the universe, its workings, and its marvel. Science had to take what it understood as truth (ie, the sun revolves around the sun, the ocean is full of monsters, Earth is 6,000 years old, the universe was created in seven days, slaves and women are inferior to men, etc) and go from there.
But, moreover, how dare you try to dig up dark chapters in the annals of scientific progress? Sure there's Egas Moniz and his lobotomies, and there are the countless horrors committed by the nazis in old Germany, and there is electroshock therapy, and more. But this all pales in comparison to the horrors and terrors committed by the Christian church over the centuries.
Your church's closet is full of several many more skeletons than that belonging to science, ya chump.
The one thing older than 2000 years that science has never been able to prove, or DIS-prove is the existence of, creation by, and subsequent sacrifice of - God Himself, no matter how hard they try. And by the looks of this website, and others just like it…there have been those that have been trying VERY hard.
Science does not have to disprove anything. You have but to PROVE a thing. This is the basis of FSMism. In the spirit of not being able to disprove a thing, one's worship of a flying spaghetti monster is every bit as valid as your worship of a ... bearded white guy on a cloud.
If you would like to read philosophical accounts of God’s existence – read Pascal, Kant, C.S. Lewis, or even Einstein.
Einstein was an atheist. His references to God were actually in reference to a more abstract god, as in the way of the universe, or the way of nature.
swickstrum wrote:If you would like scientific accounts of God’s existence, sorry it can’t be done.
Amen. RAmen. Woof woof.
And this is where we get into the thing that the FSM creators have most made fun of… faith. And that’s fine. I was told I would be made fun of, I was told people would laugh; I was told I would be beaten, possibly stoned to death - for my belief in the Son of God. If all YOU can do is create a website, I can deal with that all day. Heck, I will post my picture, my family’s picture, my email, my phone number, my address, and my work address if that’s all you will do - create a funky little website called, “ The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.”
Please have more discretion than that. That's more stupider than believing in God.
Here's a personal anecdote, though. I grew up in southern Alabama, in the midst of the Bible belt. I knew at a very early age that I did not believe in the Christian god (for reasons I can go into in another post). So if you want to talk about being shouted at, cursed, shunned, or hated because of one's religious beliefs, then I encourage you to contact me for further discourse.
How awesome is that? I can tell you all that I believe, and all you will do is laugh at me and pat me on my little retarded shoulder while you wink at your friends. “He’s a stupid one.” You will say…“He really thinks there is a God…ha, ha.” And just leave me alone, right? We will see. I’m afraid the truth is I will be hated, mocked, made fun of, and threatened with violence.
I will certainly mock you and make fun of you. I will NEVER threaten you with violence or hate you. Because this is America, Mr. Paranoid.
But, I have faith in God; therefore I will test this theory. My name is Scott Wickstrum, and my email is firstname.lastname@example.org
. Let me know how you feel.
Once again, the intertubes is a wonderfully anonymous place. No need to get so personal. I hope you aren't actually going to post your family portrait after this.
Finally, I would like to say this: Make fun all you like, but the Bible still cannot be disproven, and there are no other documents as revered – yet more thoroughly tried to be proven false - as the Bible. And IF…by the small chance (according to science) IF…the Bible IS the true Word of God – then read and contemplate these words… Romans 1:18 – 25 ------
No documents as revered? That is either terribly biased, or terribly ignorant, or both. There is also the Koran, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tarvunti, the Tao, the Book of Marvin, and the Principia Discoria. Get over yourself.
And if you are truly open-minded, truly after knowledge, truly wanting to discover the truth… you will read this…if for no other reason than to make fun of it…otherwise, you are just as closed minded as the Christian idiots that you make fun of…
Amen. RAmen. Woof woof.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them. 20For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. 21For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves. 25They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1. And these came to be known as the Laws of Marvin, which were as by Magic marked upon the walls of the bathrooms of the Priests of the Spirit Mallet, and they were seven in number:
2.Be thyself, for if thou dost not, thou art not.
3. Do that which makes thee glad, for sadness is the great oracle of the death of the soul.
4. Measure your progress in life by the rustiness of the gates through which you pass.
5. Remember the Pueblo.
6.Avoid he who has no mind, for if he has none himself, he shall surely demand thine of thee.
7. Learn that which others can teach, and teach that which others can learn.
8. Consider that the only entity who entirely occupies his world is Marvin, and He is lodged in an oak tree.
9. And such are the Laws of Marvin.
Oh, lookie! I can quote scripture too! Yippee! Yahooey! Yahweh!