A Question from a Christian

[daftbeaker]

one of our more respected members is Scott the Pirate

[tris]

Also, I have read the Bible. I am one of the few atheists that enjoy the bible, because it made me what I am.

I enjoy the bible, too! Not because it made me who I am, but because I love fairy tales The bible is the most famous and widely read fairy tale ever...

I can't say I ENJOY it... it's useful to know about since it has conditioned the last 2000 or so years of our history, it has some wacky yarns in it, but it's so BADLY WRITTEN... so bland... instead of sexing up the miracles and stuff, like in 6:45-52 when Jesus WALKS ON THE WATER. The original text goes:
40So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. 41Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. 42They all ate and were satisfied, 43and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. 44The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand. 45Immediately Jesus made his disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to Bethsaida, while he dismissed the crowd. 46After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. 47When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. 48He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 49but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, 50because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 51Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.
it makes miracles sound boring! COULDNT THEY beef it up with a few adjectives?

[Ubi Dubium]

I much prefer the story as it is told in Lamb. I don't have a copy in front of me, so I'll paraphrase:

"You were walking on the water!"
"Well, yeah."
"But how can you do that?"
"I'd just eaten, and you know you can't go in swimming for 45 minutes after you eat. Honestly, don't any of you guys have mothers?"

[Helene Potier]

The (hopefully) red bits are my answers to his spurious claims.

Just your "sense of humor (or humour, as the British – who, with such an irritating irreverence to real English continue to misspell this word…lol)?” NOT funny. It's called English. ergo, it came from England. the way we spell words is how they should be spelt, the way americans spell things are annoyingly simplifying (such as "plow" instead of "plough"). real english, indeed. no offence to any americans who read this, but just because youre a bigger country doesnt mean your way of saying things trumps ours.

How can Jesus hurt the people who do not believe in Him? Ahem, when he was alive what he meant by "don't kill" was "Don't kill people, unless they are heathens or non-believers." And for crying out loud, there are SO MANY wars that have been fought in the name of religion.

the facts just DO NOT support evolution, and if you really look, with an open mind, you will see that what I say is true. do you mean because everything in the world looks so complicated? Is YOUR mind too closed to contemplate the infinitesimal changes that occurred over so many billions of years? The mind boggles. of course you want the simpler (if far-fetched) idea of creation.

There are really no records of history that go beyond Biblical times, and I kept coming back to that fact. If we have been around for Millions (perhaps Billions) of years, where is the documentation, stone or otherwise? helloooo! it is buried in the earth! millions of years of sedimantary rock piling up has hidden old cave paintings and such. Also you said something about sudden increase of technology since the time Joshua Benjoseph died and was given the title Jesus Christ. It takes a long time to build the foundation, in language and increased cognitive ability. Then we accumulkate knowledge and, like in our own time, inventions are being made every day because of the scientific breakthroughs of the past centuries.

Can there be NO other possibility [than evolution]… really? Since there is no proof, do we have to limit our schools to one possibility; and not let the students decide? We are not saying there are NO other possibilities. we would be ready to throw out our belief that evolution is the answer, were we to come across evidence to the contrary. But does that mean we should believe in something as ludicrous as a sentient being that created us all in His own image and all that? we are choosing to believe the idea that makes most SENSE.

Scientists used to think that the earth was flat. Not true. as far back as ancient times, the most learned people knew that the earth was spherical.

If you would like to read philosophical accounts of God’s existence – read Pascal, Kant, C.S. Lewis, or even Einstein. Einstein was an atheist, contrary to what many people believe. When he called himself a "Deeply religious nonbeliever", he meant religion not in reverence to god, but to existence itself, whose creation he did not, repeat not, attribute to god.

Heck, I will post my picture, my family’s picture, my email, my phone number, my address, and my work address if that’s all you will do - create a funky little website called, “ The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.” duh, of course thats all we'll do. we, as atheists, are not going to condone violence in the name of what we believe.I think the Crusades and the horrible torture of anyone who differs in belief came from RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.

At least he didn’t think we ACTUALLY believe in a flying spaghetti monster.

[ET, the Extra Terrestrial]

At least he didn’t think we ACTUALLY believe in a flying spaghetti monster.

?

We don't?

[Charlie]

Ug. Just came here to annoy Julius because he told me not to post here. I am that bored. I could question other people's arguments, but this thread is thirteen pages long and I don't really care, so i'm only going to annoy Julius. Anything I could have said has already been said anyway, because you're all so intelligent and handsome.

Allow me to point something out. There is evidence to suggest that the ancient Greeks had designed and developed primitive steam engines. However, since they probably couldn't find any use for them at the time they were not widely used.

Oh . . my . . . go. . . You're quoting Mr. Price? That's . . . I can't even go into how weird that is. They did have steam engines. They used them as toys. Clap, clap, greekies. We could build trains! No, let's keep watching hot air push this ball round . . . and around . . . and around . . .

You will find that our civilisation has been held back these past 1800 years because anybody intelligent enough to advance society was either burnt, drowned, hung, or just stabbed (I wont name any names here). Can you imagine how advanced we would be if the industrial revolution had happened 1000 years before it did??

You're making assumptions based on your fantasies. No one wants to hear your fantasies. Your fantasies are not fantasies but the dark nightmares of crazed serial-killers.

Ummm let me see here. Ancient philosophers believed that the earth was the center of the universe and everything evolved around it. Something that Christianity took on board might I add. And if you were to do some research you will find that the only 'scientists' that believed the Earth was flat were (now let me get this right) Christian ones (Even the Muslims intellectuals deduced that was stupid). Before your superstition (because that is what it is) came about, there is evidence to suggest that people knew the earth was round (Again i refer to the Greeks, but also the Chinese). Also, drilling into the human skull was done so to release demons and bad spirits. So you will find that again, these weren't scientists, but religious folk with supersticians.

By the way, a bunch of people do still believe the Earth is flat. They're called the Flat Earth Society. When you say ancient, how ancient do you mean? Aristotle was one of the first to provide evidence that the Earth was spherical. So you must mean older than that. And FYI, it was already quite well-known that the Earth was a sphere during the middle ages. It is a misconception that most common people make that those 'stupid christians of the Middle Ages' thought the Earth was flat. About drilling holes into people's skulls, if you're referring to trepanning, that is a medical procedure and there's nothing wrong with it if it's done correctly.

The facts DO support evolution (I say support and not prove, don't think it was an accident). Darwin had great ideas because he showed the world that we aren't here by chance (or because god said so for that matter). And when looking at evolution with an opened mind. . . . they still support evolution.

Also, I have read the Bible. I am one of the few atheists that enjoy the bible, because it made me what I am. If you wish to quote scripture with me, bring it on.

And we come to Mr. Darwin. Haha, i'm still laughing where you said evolution supports evolution. Really? Wow, I never would have guessed. I know it's just vague english, but still . . .lolz. Darwin cautiously avoided talking about religion and science. He never sought to disprove religion, its just what people inferred from his work. And it's easy to infer things. I'm going to take the vague and wimpy stand that I don't know (or care) how i got here, just what am I going to do here.

Have a happy day, peoplez.

And Julius, I'll quote scripture with you: Man shall not live on bread alone. Man, I hate bread. Bread, the bane of existence! Why do you taunt me so!

[KMill]

And Julius, I'll quote scripture with you: Man shall not live on bread alone. Man, I hate bread. Bread, the bane of existence! Why do you taunt me so!

Then we'll let you eat cake.

[daftbeaker]

Then we'll let you eat cake.

I'm torn between 'The cake is a lie' and 'Cake or death?'

[KMill]

I'm torn between 'The cake is a lie' and 'Cake or death?'

Cake or death is a lie!

[SomethingClever]

Ok I read most of the tread only to stop reading when I realized the tread was dying and swickstrum wasn't come back, but I still want to get some stuff off my chest as much came to mind through the lenghty read (skim) through.

The amazing thing to me, a Christian, is that anyone - Christian or non - would dedicate this much time to proving or disproving anything at all. What is leading you to do such? Just your "sense of humor (or humour, as the British – who, with such an irritating irreverence to real English continue to misspell this word…lol)?”

Statements of this sort seem to pop up here at quite often, and even amongst the gibberish of the hate mail section they grab my attention above all else for the irony they present. Its kind of like this... A group of people got together to share and discuss a certain ideology, when a dissenting party came in and said "Hey why waste your time promoting these views", only to go on using his own time to continue discuss the merit of our views vs his own. Ok the irony is painfully obvious and so, it is common for one of our member to come along and point this out saying in his own word "see your error, we feel a need to promote our views were it is call for just as you feel a need to defend your views were it is called for, Duh".
Well I have another way of putting that may be more insightful for those untouched by his noodliness. Do you not gather in your churches and amongst your peers to discuss and refine your views of faith? Well we do same here at our little Church of FSM. I was hoping to get Swickstrum's thought on this as he has put so much of his time in to this thus far.

It seems to me that you are overly concerned with things that do not concern you. Let me ask you a question, please. If you do not care whether or not a person believes in God, and by God, I include the Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then why do you insist on driving people away from Him?

How can Jesus hurt the people who do not believe in Him? If you do not believe, then do not believe, fine. The problem with all this FSM mess is that you are leading people who may have become good and powerful Christians astray.

God and all his fabricated parts cant directly hurt anyone because they don't exist. However the concept of God has a very real effects on me and society as a whole. A firm belief in things which are inevident, inhibits one's ability to partake in knowledge impartially, inadvertently promoting ignorance and close-mindednes. Thus it is my belief that religion inhibits movement toward a society that values knowledge and rejects ignorance. To put another way, we can clearly see today that all of societies advancements have come from science and secular philosophy, religion is just a third wheel amongst them.

The rest of the OP is just an absurd misrepressentation of science being torn down over and over again. That being the case I wont even address the rest of it, as I hate the strawman above all else. Honestly it doesnt matter if Darwin's theories are hold true or not. The merits of faith and god will remain unchanged just the same.

[daftbeaker]

I'm torn between 'The cake is a lie' and 'Cake or death?'

Cake or death is a lie!

No it's not, Eddie Izzard said it

[KMill]

No it's not, Eddie Izzard said it

I suspect I won't die due to "not having cake with the vicar"-related illness.

[edpsych42]

How refreshing to at last find a reasoned discussion.
I do however think that it is based on a false understanding of what CFSM is about - please correct me if I'm wrong.
The church is not trying to disprove anything, in fact it appears to celebrate faith. It does however wish to draw clearly the distinction between faith and science and the only thing it objects to is the attempt to pass faith off as science.
Have I got it right?
ed

[daftbeaker]

How refreshing to at last find a reasoned discussion.
I do however think that it is based on a false understanding of what CFSM is about - please correct me if I'm wrong.
The church is not trying to disprove anything, in fact it appears to celebrate faith. It does however wish to draw clearly the distinction between faith and science and the only thing it objects to is the attempt to pass faith off as science.
Have I got it right?
ed

Basically, yes. It's not an atheist group (something that needs to be pointed out to every moronic troll that comes past) but a group against having religion taught as science. Science stays in science classes, religion stays in religious classes.

Although the majority of the site is probably atheist or agnostic we have quite a few religious members.

[TwistedSister]

It's true DB about the religious members, I believe that there also a few who worship Satan.