A Question from a Christian

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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby dbutler on Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:10 am

Swickstrum,

I would like to address a few of the things you said, I hope you read this and respond back in kind...

swickstrum wrote:
All of the other cultures you mentioned were either after the time of Jesus, or directly before. The Septuagint was written before Christ’s birth, and that was the Greek translation of the Old Testament. Which lends credence to my argument that we have advanced like never before in the past 2000 years, if we have indeed, been on the planet for millions of years, what hastened this last 2000 years of evolution? It is but a blink of an eye in the big picture according to the evolutionists, so why did it take thousands of years to get from “Cro-magnon” to human, and just 2000 years to get from Roman technology to where we are today?


As fueledbycoffee mentioned; much of the time on Earth was spent evolving, whivh is a very slow, gradual process. But beyond that, think of doing a puzzle. At the beginning you have to guess alot, you have to look at pieces and see what might fit next to something else. But as the game goes on, as more pieces come together, you can begin seeing the bigger picture and be able to not only put pieces together faster, but even guess what some pieces will probably look like. By the end you are just throwing the pieces together because you know where they are going to fit, the jumble of colors has now formed into something that makes sense. And please don't use the argument that it is different because there is infinite knowledge out there and when using a puzzle you are working toward a definite goal. Life is not one large puzzle, but an infinite number of little puzzles which is why, as human technology grows, it continues to grow even faster at an exponentially increasing rate.

My own personal reason for being on these boards is because, in addition to providing me with good, intellectually stimulating content while I am bored at home, I do not want to live in a world that does not listen to reason and logic. And contrary to what you said in your posts, the evidence does in fact endorse evolution (I will cite no sources here since initial poster didn't bother. You are smart people, you can find it yourselves.).

swickstrum wrote:The one thing older than 2000 years that science has never been able to prove, or DIS-prove is the existence of, creation by, and subsequent sacrifice of - God Himself, no matter how hard they try. And by the looks of this website, and others just like it…there have been those that have been trying VERY hard.

If you would like to read philosophical accounts of God’s existence – read Pascal, Kant, C.S. Lewis, or even Einstein. If you would like scientific accounts of God’s existence, sorry it can’t be done.

The onus is not on me to disprove anything. I refer you to Dawkins' Celestial Teapot.
And philosophy is not something I would use to endorse my belief as a valid, factual, substantive one.

swickstrum wrote:And this is where we get into the thing that the FSM creators have most made fun of… faith. And that’s fine. I was told I would be made fun of, I was told people would laugh; I was told I would be beaten, possibly stoned to death - for my belief in the Son of God. If all YOU can do is create a website, I can deal with that all day. Heck, I will post my picture, my family’s picture, my email, my phone number, my address, and my work address if that’s all you will do - create a funky little website called, “ The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.”

How awesome is that? I can tell you all that I believe, and all you will do is laugh at me and pat me on my little retarded shoulder while you wink at your friends. “He’s a stupid one.” You will say…“He really thinks there is a God…ha, ha.” And just leave me alone, right? We will see. I’m afraid the truth is I will be hated, mocked, made fun of, and threatened with violence.


Who do you think we are? 17th century Christians? No one is going to harm you, a least not physically. You might, however, get a little intellectual butt-kicking :). As long as someone's religious (or any other kind of) faith does not lead to them doing harm to others or encroaching on others freedoms then I have no problem if they sit at home and practice spells all day. (Talking about certain forms of Witchcraft that are maintained by some to be true)
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby thelastpirate on Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:45 am

Nobody else seems to be picking up on this, which is a shame. Pastafarians are not opposed to the existence of religion: we respect your beliefs.

As an organisation, we are opposed ONLY to the teaching of ID as sicence (we dont even oppose it being taught as a voluntary philosophy course, in which it belongs).

You make a great many points about God's existence, all of which I could refute if you want me to, but I just wanted to clarify that this is not an atheist site.
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby OrigamiSquared on Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:42 pm

First off, let me say that I am glad you are taking the time to have a discussion with us, unlike the "hit and run" hate mailers. Because you are giving us this respect, I hope my fellow pastafarians treat you with the same respect. I am not one of those that thinks anyone who believes in God is inferior or stupid; I have many religious friends. While I believe that faith in a deity is baseless, because of the wide-spread social acceptance, this 'baseless' belief is second nature. I disapprove of those that say religious people are stupid just because of their belief in a God, and hope I don't ever stoop to that level when upset. I would LOVE to have an organized, mature conversation with you, but for the sake of protecting our privacy, lets keep it on this forum. This discussion will likely result in you complaining that my beliefs are just as baseless as yours, and me complaining that you won't listen to any of my arguments, but hopefully, we might leave more understanding of each other's beliefs. :D Let us begin.

My opening argument:
The burden of proof is on the believer in something, not the skeptic. If I told you that a dragon lived in my garage, but he was invisible, passed through matter, could float, and couldn't be detected by any instruments known to science, you would likely think I was mad (Haha- your comment on "humour" is making me type with a British accent). While it cannot be proven that I have that dragon in my garage, it can't be disproven. Does that mean everyone should accept that I have a dragon in my garage? Of course not! Skepticism is the logical stance until there is evidence one way or another on something. Science is not claiming to know everything; if we don't understand, we take the reasonable (agnostic) stance, and don't bias ourselves one way or the other.

If you accept that the burden of proof is on the believer, your obvious path would be supplying some evidence. Do you accept this challenge? If not, provide a logical reason why the above is not true.

Refuting your points:
swickstrum wrote:The amazing thing to me, a Christian, is that anyone - Christian or non - would dedicate this much time to proving or disproving anything at all. What is leading you to do such? Just your "sense of humor (or humour, as the British – who, with such an irritating irreverence to real English continue to misspell this word…lol)?”

Scientists have a tendency to be curious about the world we live in.That is why we try to discover things.

It seems to me that you are overly concerned with things that do not concern you. Let me ask you a question, please. If you do not care whether or not a person believes in God, and by God, I include the Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then why do you insist on driving people away from Him?

Firstly, you misunderstand our (my) goals. My main concern is keeping any religion not based on scientific fact from being taught as science. Also, we (I) am scared of an automatically accepted dogma for any group of people, and because 80% of the USA is religious, this is a big concern. The Xian dogma (btw, don't be offended by x instead of Christ. The reason that was started was because x is in Greek the letter "Chi" which stands for "Christ") is has strong stances on gay marriage and abortion (lets not get into arguing these topics), while the majority of non-Xians take the polar opposite stance. Any group having too much power is scary. I also dream of a world where everyone bases their beliefs on reason and not faith. Addressing your main point in the above paragraph, we DO care whether or not a person believes in God.

How can Jesus hurt the people who do not believe in Him? If you do not believe, then do not believe, fine. The problem with all this FSM mess is that you are leading people who may have become good and powerful Christians astray.

I addressed this in my above comment. If you need more elaboration, you have but to ask.

I was an atheist for a few years, and looked at all the theories, facts, and theories (I repeated the word twice, don’t think it was by accident) and the thing I found was that no one has a clue where we really came from. Yes, Darwin has great ideas, and those ideas have been perpetuated throughout the last century and a half to show more of the same. But the fact is, no one knows, and to be honest – the facts just DO NOT support evolution, and if you really look, with an open mind, you will see that what I say is true.

Where did you get the idea that the facts do not point to evolution? Evolution is an fundamental observable principle, just like gravity.
Fact 1: There is competition between animals. If a bacteria cell were to divide at the rate of once per minute, in an hour, there would be more germ cells than molecules in the earth.
Fact 2: There will be variations or mutations in a species. The animals aren't identical. This is obvious.
Fact 3: The 'best' animals are more likely to survive than the 'worst' animals.
Tada! That is evolution.


There are really no records of history that go beyond Biblical times, and I kept coming back to that fact. If we have been around for Millions (perhaps Billions) of years, where is the documentation, stone or otherwise? Why is it that over the last 2000 years our civilization has become so advanced… so advanced that I can type these words on a screen, as never before? I do not have an answer for these questions, nor does anyone – although someone surely thinks they do.

Surely I am misunderstanding you; there is myriad proofs that the earth is older than biblical times. Look at carbon dating, radiometric dating, rock layers, fossils, and light from galaxies millions of light-years away, for starters. Please correct me if I am being thick and misunderstood your argument.

Back to my original question, in paragraph three, what is the reason for this whole movement? Why are some so concerned with what others believe…to the point of calling those who do believe in God idiots? Why is it offensive that there might be another possibility other than evolution? Are you not the “open-minded” people you claim to be? Can there be NO other possibility… really? Since there is no proof, do we have to limit our schools to one possibility; and not let the students decide? This is not math, there is not a law that tells us how exactly things work.

THIS is exactly what we stand for. Keeping ID out of schools. It is not science, and should be kept out of the classrooms. If you accept the idea of "let the children choose", why not give them more options to choose from? It is unfair to rob them of the chance to convert to pastafarinism, or understand the "theories" that the earth was created by an invisible pink unicorn, or juju the mountain troll? If the science classroom isn't for science, give all the baseless religions a chance, not just yours.

Oh, but science is so advanced now, we know what is going on…really? Scientists used to think that the earth was flat, scientists used to think that the sun rotated around the earth, scientists used to think that drilling into a human’s skull would help them work their problems out (as a matter of fact, the best group of scientists in the world gave Egas Moniz the Nobel Peace Prize for the Lobotomy in 1949…just 59 years ago). Oh how times have changed. What idiots we were, drilling into a skull…wow! But back in the 1800’s(oh, 200 years ago is out, but 2000 years ago is in? Okay...) Darwin came up with evolution and that is still respected? We cannot prove nor disprove this flawed science.

Read above; science is ok with admitting that we don't know. The logical stance is agnosticism.

The one thing older than 2000 years that science has never been able to prove, or DIS-prove is the existence of, creation by, and subsequent sacrifice of - God Himself, no matter how hard they try. And by the looks of this website, and others just like it…there have been those that have been trying VERY hard.

Even if God cannot be disproven - which for the sake of argument, I will accept - does not make it correct, or even a remote possibility.

If you would like to read philosophical accounts of God’s existence – read Pascal, Kant, C.S. Lewis, or even Einstein.

Philosophical accounts mean nothing. I believe in the idea of God; I also believe in the idea of fairies, leprecons, and dragons. Depending on how you define God , such as "Einstein's God", I may believe in that. On the same note, calling a corn stalk a unicorn and saying unicorns therefore exist doesn't prove winged horses with horns exist. If this doesn't make sense, my deepest apologies. It made sense in my head, and got jumbled up in the typing process. :) I will gladly rephrase, if you wish.

If you would like scientific accounts of God’s existence, sorry it can’t be done.

Exactly.

And this is where we get into the thing that the FSM creators have most made fun of… faith. And that’s fine. I was told I would be made fun of, I was told people would laugh; I was told I would be beaten, possibly stoned to death - for my belief in the Son of God. If all YOU can do is create a website, I can deal with that all day. Heck, I will post my picture, my family’s picture, my email, my phone number, my address, and my work address if that’s all you will do - create a funky little website called, “ The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.”

I am glad that you don't mind being the butt of a joke. That is a noble quality. I have no issues laughing at jokes that make fun of atheism, or any of my other beliefs. You should enjoy life as much as possible. Why spend time getting offended when it won't help either party? Good job.

How awesome is that? I can tell you all that I believe, and all you will do is laugh at me and pat me on my little retarded shoulder while you wink at your friends. “He’s a stupid one.” You will say…“He really thinks there is a God…ha, ha.” And just leave me alone, right? We will see. I’m afraid the truth is I will be hated, mocked, made fun of, and threatened with violence.

I hope your stay here is more enjoyable than you predicted. I hope the hormone ridden pastafarians (the scum of our community), who just want someone to curse at, don't bug you too much.

But, I have faith in God; therefore I will test this theory. My name is Scott Wickstrum, and my email is swickstrum@yahoo.com. Let me know how you feel.

Finally, I would like to say this: Make fun all you like, but the Bible still cannot be disproven, and there are no other documents as revered – yet more thoroughly tried to be proven false - as the Bible. And IF…by the small chance (according to science) IF…the Bible IS the true Word of God – then read and contemplate these words… Romans 1:18 – 25 ------

And if you are truly open-minded, truly after knowledge, truly wanting to discover the truth… you will read this…if for no other reason than to make fun of it…otherwise, you are just as closed minded as the Christian idiots that you make fun of…
I read it


18For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them. 20For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. 21For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves. 25They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

Because the Bible is not regarded as any evidence at all, Bible quotes are out until someone shows it's credentials. The book itself claiming that it is the word of God is not a credential.

Amen.

RAmen.



I eagerly await your response.
Visit my website about origami, math, and the link between the two at http://origamisquared.googlepages.com

You guys have the coolest smileys! :fsm_rock: :fsm_yarr: That should be enough to convert anyone!
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby MonkeysInACan on Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:05 am

swickstrum wrote:If me and my children believing in God does no more harm than you NOT believing in God, why then are the atheists, and FSM believers pushing their beliefs on us? We cannot say in school, that it is a POSSIBILITY, that God created us? We have to state as fact that the world has been around for billions of years? I’m just thinking that maybe we could put out the question that one or the other is true, let them decide.



I am glad you admit that it is a fact the world has been around for billions of years :D But where I grow worried is when you say scientists think modern humans have been around for millions of years. Because even the most liberal scientists think modern humans have been around for at most 30,000 years.

If nothing predates biblical times I would like you to please tell me just how old you think the world is. I'm curious.

You will have to say older than 9,000 years because there has been a tree discovered which is older than that. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 104320.htm

Also if you say the dating methods used by science are are flawed you must then call into question the age of your precious shroud of Turin.

You say the kids should decide? Should we let them decide if vegetables are healthy? Or if the Earth is flat, or if it is indeed round does the Earth revolve around the sun? Or even if they should go to school in the first place if the kids decide they don't want to?

If evolution is false I suggest you never get a flu shot, and never get your kids vaccinated for ANY disease EVER because after all those scientists developed the vaccines with the faulty theory of Evolution. And every time they get a vaccination Baby Jesus dies a little more.

OH! and I never recalled us telling you not to believe in god. We just don't want Intelligent design taught in science class. Just like we stopped teaching that the earth was flat once it was discovered to be Round even thought the Bible says otherwise.

Just because science freely admits that is doesn't know exactly how the universe started does NOT mean that it is better to make up a fairy tale to explain it.

PS: Listening to Kent Hovind does not count as scientific research.
"Evolution is the central theme of biological science. The mechanism of evolution is natural selection."-- NJ science Standard Ch 7
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby Philly Fillet on Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:31 pm

one minor point on the old testament (an insulting name for any practicing Jew, by the way...):

.tfel ot thgir nettirw si werbeh <---

.slwv thtw nttrw s ls t <---

.stprcsnmlngrhtnscpsnrrhtthtntnmttn <---


1. hebrew is written right to left.
2. it also is written without vowels.
3. not to mention there are no spaces in the original manuscripts.

so, the Torah, et al, were written in a layout similar to a wordsearch, only one gets to add the significantly meaning-altering vowels at one's leisure and discretion.

how the fuck do people derive intelligible information from that?


Bill Hicks wrote:"I Think what God MEANT to say was..." - i have never been that confident.


now for a dead horse:

Science PROVES nothing. it evidences. there is a strict rigor to science. this starts with a hypothesis: "Perhaps X because Y." then evidence and tests are sought/carried out to support/refute this claim. where is the necessity of proof? Science is not an Absolute.

This is why the Theory of Evolution is taught, and Christian Creation is not. Evolution: Evidence; Creation: Written Speculation. If Christian Creation were taught, we would also have to teach Hindu creation (and which of the many many creation stories do we use from Hinduism?), FSM, planar manifestation (witchcrafty-type creation stories) etc...

so where's the time to teach history, math and language?

/beating the dead horse

"sense of humor (or humour, as the British – who, with such an irritating irreverence to real English continue to misspell this word…lol)?”


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Humour is proper british english. The Brits spoke english before americans existed. colonial settlers of what is now the united states spoke BRITISH ENGLISH. through years of individuation, though, american english developed it's own distinct spelling and grammar. compare to old english, middle english, and high german. Jesus isn't the only thing that makes you a ninny.

And by the by:

if you believe in an omnipotent God, what makes you think that you in your limited existence and awareness (or any other limited being, for that matter) have found a System of Belief that is beyond limitation and truly encapsulates what and who God is? For that matter, if you really have found that system, doesn't that strip god of features like onmipotence? (god cannot do some things, for example, if he is Good, Merciful and Benevolent) or Omnipresence? (If jesus is God, how could he be everywhere and also limited by the flesh? Also, if he is not limited by Flesh, why would sin be an issue for him? Also, if sin was not an issue for him, why did he preach against it?)

most importantly, if goodness, and virtue, and holiness, et al, is the goal, WHY DIDN'T AN OMNIPOTENT GOD CREATE PERFECT, INFALLIBLE BEINGS?

I, for the record, am a Theist. however, the only way i can reconcile that with my own existence is by admitting: I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THIS BEING/FORCE/THOUGHT-FORM OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT POSSIBLY BE.

Just my own personal sneaking suspicions. and currently, i feel that God is All Consciousness. Right now, he's experiencing some cognitive dissonance that's resulting in an extreme dissociative identity disorder, and that's why you're being retarded.

Sex and Violets,
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P.S. Y'all: I was going to introduce myself first, but this pissed me off too much. I'm New, but i got a boom boom. and i'll fucking anything.
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby Dagwood Gum on Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:22 pm

If you lived in the darkened times (no science) of disease and famine, ate bad mushrooms (manna), moldy bread (ergot) like they had to or starve, washed it all down with wine all the while having no medical data that there were such things as hallucinogens, you'd have come up with your own entertaining religion and wouldn't have to piggyback upon the religions of the legions of the stoned who came before you. Their fables were simply and only based upon dreams and some written second hand hundreds of years later. I thought I'd need to invent my own imaginary beings to look over me until I found Spaghettianity. The problem with the pre-Spaghettianity religions is you have to abandon the truth of your own spirituallity, assign an imaginary superhero as the medium that you need to bargain with in order to be given back your own spiritual identity. But you've only bartered back what was already yours - you!But it won't be the real you, it will be a tainted, conditional you. Wake up and smell the spaghetti! :fsm_float:
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby Dagwood Gum on Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:30 pm

A friend privately emailed me:

But what flavor spaghetti sauce will be the holy water of this religion? I
can foresee endless wars with this religious concept between the marinarian
sect, alfredian sect, meatsaucian, and bolonessian sects. And even more
worrisome are the potential plain wheat, whole wheat, Jerusalem artichoke,
spinach, angel hair, and fettuccini sub-sects arguing that each is the
"chosen" spaghetti noodle. I don't know Dag Gum, you may have just started
WWIII!

These will be called the spaghetti wars.
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby ButlerianJihad on Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:26 pm

I personally dislike Christianity because, from my experience and what I've learned, it is simply a plagiarism of
Judaism, mixed with a mash of different pagan religions.

Here's a little piece of what I mean:
As with many other Christian dates, the celebration of Easter extends beyond the church. Since its origins, it has been a time of celebration and feasting and many Traditional Easter games and customs developed, such as Egg rolling, Egg tapping, Pace egging and Egg decorating. The egg became important in many of these traditions as a pagan symbol of rebirth used in spring festivals. It was later adopted by the early Christian Church as a symbol of the rebirth of Christ. Similarly the spring Hare was the animal of the goddess Eostre which developed into the tradition of the Easter bunny


So, yeah, the "day your lord was resurrected" is actually a pagan fertility festival. WHICH MAKES SENSE!! Eggs and rabbits are FERTILITY SYMBOLS, not in any way related to Jesus.

Here's the template for your "Lord and Savior".
He was originally Mithra!
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/mithra.htm

Oh, and in case you're wondering, he predates Jesus by 1400 years.

Have fun being the victim of an ancient Roman control device! They didn't call him Constantine the Great for nothing.

------

I figured I'd give you a little of what you were expecting, just so you wouldn't be completely disappointed. Aren't I sweet?

Seriously though, do you realize what you are saying?

"You're changing people's minds and making them question their faith"

That's what your "problem" here seems to boil down to.

swickstrum wrote:If me and my children believing in God does no more harm than you NOT believing in God, why then are the atheists, and FSM believers pushing their beliefs on us?


I've never ever had an atheist ride up to me on a bicycle or come knocking on my door saturday morning. Fail.

We cannot say in school, that it is a POSSIBILITY, that God created us?


I really think you don't need to. You have all the time you want when your kids are AT HOME to TEACH THEM YOURSELF if you want to foist your dogma upon them.

Keep science in the science class. This is what SCIENTISTS believe, because this is where the EVIDENCE POINTS.

I'll reiterate this point: If you want your kids to believe as you do, TEACH THEM YOURSELF.

This is not the United States of Jesus yet. It's still supposed to be a free country. It is YOUR responsibility to provide your children with a moral compass, and if you believe that your religion fits that bill, then go for it.
It is the school's responsibility to provide an education based on evidence and not on faith or magic.
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby His Noodly Appendage on Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:14 am

Elvalia wrote:
Zankou 2.0 wrote:I'm sorry, I stopped readig after you referred to your fucked up spelling of "humour" as "proper".

May teh FSM have mercy on your wayward soul.

I didn't stop reading, but you're right, so very right.

Small point, but I thought I'd say it:
swickstrum wrote:In fact, Cleopatra was Greek, just so you know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra
Wiki says that she was born in Alexandria, making her Egyptian by birth at least, if not by blood. Unless, of course, I'm mistaken. Don't hesitate to call me out on it if I am. As I said, it's a small point.


I just finished studying Egypt and yes, Cleopatra was Egyptian--not Greek. After the Greeks took over Egypt in around 300 or so B.C. Cleopatra made an effort to reunite Egypt. I also believe she had some involvement with Caesar (not sure about that.) Anyways, her futile attempts to save Egypt eventually led to her suicide. That was one of the many historical errors presented by swimstick or whatever his name was.
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby His Noodly Appendage on Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:38 am

swickstrum wrote:The amazing thing to me, a Christian, is that anyone - Christian or non - would dedicate this much time to proving or disproving anything at all. What is leading you to do such? Just your "sense of humor (or humour, as the British – who, with such an irritating irreverence to real English continue to misspell this word…lol)?”

It seems to me that you are overly concerned with things that do not concern you. Let me ask you a question, please. If you do not care whether or not a person believes in God, and by God, I include the Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then why do you insist on driving people away from Him?

How can Jesus hurt the people who do not believe in Him? If you do not believe, then do not believe, fine. The problem with all this FSM mess is that you are leading people who may have become good and powerful Christians astray.

I was an atheist for a few years, and looked at all the theories, facts, and theories (I repeated the word twice, don’t think it was by accident) and the thing I found was that no one has a clue where we really came from. Yes, Darwin has great ideas, and those ideas have been perpetuated throughout the last century and a half to show more of the same. But the fact is, no one knows, and to be honest – the facts just DO NOT support evolution, and if you really look, with an open mind, you will see that what I say is true.

There are really no records of history that go beyond Biblical times, and I kept coming back to that fact. If we have been around for Millions (perhaps Billions) of years, where is the documentation, stone or otherwise? Why is it that over the last 2000 years our civilization has become so advanced… so advanced that I can type these words on a screen, as never before? I do not have an answer for these questions, nor does anyone – although someone surely thinks they do.

Back to my original question, in paragraph three, what is the reason for this whole movement? Why are some so concerned with what others believe…to the point of calling those who do believe in God idiots? Why is it offensive that there might be another possibility other than evolution? Are you not the “open-minded” people you claim to be? Can there be NO other possibility… really? Since there is no proof, do we have to limit our schools to one possibility; and not let the students decide? This is not math, there is not a law that tells us how exactly things work.

Oh, but science is so advanced now, we know what is going on…really? Scientists used to think that the earth was flat, scientists used to think that the sun rotated around the earth, scientists used to think that drilling into a human’s skull would help them work their problems out (as a matter of fact, the best group of scientists in the world gave Egas Moniz the Nobel Peace Prize for the Lobotomy in 1949…just 59 years ago). Oh how times have changed. What idiots we were, drilling into a skull…wow! But back in the 1800’s Darwin came up with evolution and that is still respected? We cannot prove nor disprove this flawed science.

The one thing older than 2000 years that science has never been able to prove, or DIS-prove is the existence of, creation by, and subsequent sacrifice of - God Himself, no matter how hard they try. And by the looks of this website, and others just like it…there have been those that have been trying VERY hard.

If you would like to read philosophical accounts of God’s existence – read Pascal, Kant, C.S. Lewis, or even Einstein. If you would like scientific accounts of God’s existence, sorry it can’t be done.

And this is where we get into the thing that the FSM creators have most made fun of… faith. And that’s fine. I was told I would be made fun of, I was told people would laugh; I was told I would be beaten, possibly stoned to death - for my belief in the Son of God. If all YOU can do is create a website, I can deal with that all day. Heck, I will post my picture, my family’s picture, my email, my phone number, my address, and my work address if that’s all you will do - create a funky little website called, “ The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.”

How awesome is that? I can tell you all that I believe, and all you will do is laugh at me and pat me on my little retarded shoulder while you wink at your friends. “He’s a stupid one.” You will say…“He really thinks there is a God…ha, ha.” And just leave me alone, right? We will see. I’m afraid the truth is I will be hated, mocked, made fun of, and threatened with violence.

But, I have faith in God; therefore I will test this theory. My name is Scott Wickstrum, and my email is swickstrum@yahoo.com. Let me know how you feel.

Finally, I would like to say this: Make fun all you like, but the Bible still cannot be disproven, and there are no other documents as revered – yet more thoroughly tried to be proven false - as the Bible. And IF…by the small chance (according to science) IF…the Bible IS the true Word of God – then read and contemplate these words… Romans 1:18 – 25 ------

And if you are truly open-minded, truly after knowledge, truly wanting to discover the truth… you will read this…if for no other reason than to make fun of it…otherwise, you are just as closed minded as the Christian idiots that you make fun of…

18For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them. 20For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. 21For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies among themselves. 25They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


First, I'm going to answer your question on the whole writing before biblical times. And yes, I just got done studying this so I have a pretty good background in it.

First of all, we (scientists and the rest considering you paticularly do not belive the findings of scientists) cannot name the definite link between apes, ape-humans, early man, and finally us, considering they all have different characteristics. The closest to our current species, homo sapien sapiens, first showed up around 100,000 years ago in Africa. Throughout the many thousand years following, they spread into Europe, Asia,etc. They had a more advanced brain then their predecessor, Homo Sapiens, and were anatomically similar to us. They continued the very basic human development until about 20,000 B.C. when they began to use stone/wooden tools. These tools were very simple. They were nomadic, hunter-gatherers that did nothing more than survive. Later, around approximately 12,000 B.C. they discovered fire. They spent the next two thousand years perfecting fire, this is when the Paleolithic Age (100,000 - 10,000 B.C.) ended. Archaeologists discovered cave drawings around 8,000 B.C. in the Alta Mira Cave, which is 4,000 years before the Bible proposes the first man, Adam, was created (also considering the bible says the earth is 6,000 years old).

8,000 B.C. also marked an important revolution, the Neolithic Revolution. This was the shifting of lifestyle from hunting and gathering to systematic agriculture and domestication of animals. This was extremely important because the Homo Sapien Sapiens did not have to worry about food 24/7, and they could expand into producing luxury goods. It is also important to note that this is where a social structure began. This note is crucial because, with the emergence of social structure came the need to control the masses who now had a little free time on their hands, though this need didn't become a major concern until there were huge populations developing (around the Greco-Roman period--The same time of the rise of Christianity).

To make sure we are on the same page, what do you propose to exactly be sufficient for a period to be classified as "Biblical Times?" The bible, like already stated, purports the earth to be around 6,000 years old (This based by its geneaology of Adam directly located in it). This would make 4,000 B.C. the beginning of time when Adam was created. But the bible, specifically the Old Testament, was not even written until the Israelites came along and were exiled, beginning in approximately 800 B.C. This means that "biblical times" started around 800 B.C. And if you are saying nothing happened during the eras of the Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Egyptians, etc. then you are sorrily mistaken. Just the Egyptians alone created a 365-day calendar, started the sciences of astrology and were the first to recognize anatomy, built the pyramids, thus creating geometry, and were the first to sanction women's rights in society by allowing noble women to own land, slaves, become priestesses, and even pharaohs (Hatshepsut, Cleopatra).

What I'm saying is, I'm giving you the historically accurate facts and showing the historical inaccuracies of the bible and history. Yes, I concede that some of them are approximated, but they give a time frame and serve their purpose, though they may not be spot-on. This, like many other problems comes down to defining certain key terms, in this case being the exact era of "biblical times." For this purpose, I assumed they were from when the bile was actually written: 800 B.C. (approximately) to the present. They could be interpreted a number of ways, each with its own advantages/disadvantages for the theory of Intelligent Design. Anyways, I allow all of you to use/cite this material for further discussion and to make sure there are no cited historical discrepancies from differing sources. Also, I reserve the right to be wrong on some of the assumptions I have made about the bible, as I am no biblical scholar, though I have watched a good deal of National Geographic. I digress though, happy debating.
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby Dagwood Gum on Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:03 am

His Noodly Appendage,

STEAL THE CHEESE

Amen! Well stated & researched!
So to distill it all down, the bible is too ludicrously incorrect about far too much to be a credible source on anything and any actual truths found in it are incidental and of questionable relevance and of dubious intent. Never has so much been made of so little as in Babylonian bible babble from babble on.
In fact what morsels of truth to be found therein can be seen as the cheese that baits the trap.
Trip the trap, steal the cheese and throw it in your personal pot of spaghetti!

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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby 3lke on Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:32 am

Nice intro, His Noodly Appendage

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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby Elvalia on Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:23 pm

His Noodly Appendage wrote:I just finished studying Egypt and yes, Cleopatra was Egyptian--not Greek. After the Greeks took over Egypt in around 300 or so B.C. Cleopatra made an effort to reunite Egypt. I also believe she had some involvement with Caesar (not sure about that.) Anyways, her futile attempts to save Egypt eventually led to her suicide. That was one of the many historical errors presented by swimstick or whatever his name was.

Ah, thank you. And yes, she did have some involvement with Caesar. If I remember correctly, she bore his son, Caesarion.
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby elijah on Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:44 pm

thelastpirate wrote:Pastafarians ...respect... beliefs.

Respect is not mocking.
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Re: A Question from a Christian

Postby Elvalia on Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:47 pm

elijah wrote:
thelastpirate wrote:Pastafarians ...respect... beliefs.

Respect is not mocking.

Very true, very true, respect is not mocking. That's why we tend not to mock beliefs, my darling. :wink:
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