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Oregon faith-healing couple found guilty of manslaughter

Published September 30th, 2011 by Bobby Henderson

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From kwtx:

Dale and Shannon Hickman of Oregon City, Ore., who prayed for their ailing prematurely born son rather than seeking medical care, have been found guilty of felony manslaughter.

Prosecutors claimed Shannon Hickman never sought prenatal care and the couple never considered taking the premature infant to the hospital.

The child was born with a bacterial infection and underdeveloped lungs and died within nine hours after he had trouble breathing.

The Hickmans’ attorney claimed religious persecution and said there was no evidence that medical care would have saved the baby.

Faith healing is one of those areas where I can ignore it as a so long as it’s affecting themselves.  But it’s very sad when parents are making reckless choices for their kids.  I am happy to see this case worked out and hopefully it will cause some religious groups to do some critical thinking.

Some believe this case illustrates how evil religion is. I wavered on posting the article because that is not the point I wanted to make. More to the point, I believe the Church of FSM is not just another anti-religion club. A lot of us have the view that religion is harmful and antiquated, but a lot of us also accept that a huge number of people feel they get something positive out of their faith and their religious communities.

So I am cautious about posting things that promote the idea that the world would be better off without religion. Because, more than anything, I don’t believe it’s in the scope of the Church of FSM to make that statement.

The point I want to make is this: instead of drawing the line between the religious and non-religious, let’s draw the line between the reasonable and unreasonable. Let’s criticize a culture that values faith over reason, rather than religion itself.

Why? We know plenty of religious people and we realize that the majority of Christians do not reject modern medicine for their children. We personally know people who get something positive from their religious communities and yet still act with reason.

These are the people who might believe in some scripture, but they also realize that their faith does a poor job of explaining the natural world. They are not blinded by faith, they are reasonable. We need these people to promote the value of reason within their communities.



101 Responses to “Oregon faith-healing couple found guilty of manslaughter”

  1. Eric says:

    I can see why many find the increasingly militant approach of the so-called “new atheism” to be unpalatable, and recognize that by ratcheting up the anti-theist rhetoric we’re going to alienate a lot of moderates and push them towards the deists politically and emotionally.

    Nonetheless, the lament about this couple and their life-killing faith is that it gets it’s seed from normal, moderate, tolerant, and, if you insist, reasonable faith. The fundamental tenant, that there is a supernatural world not subject to scientific scrutiny, simply cannot be supported to any extent whatsoever without following to it’s *rational* conclusion that those who rely on faith healing are acting reasonably.

    I don’t think we need to start shooting them in the streets or prohibiting them from breeding or anything hyper-radical like that…but it’s long past time to stop looking them in the face, nodding seriously, and acting like they’re making any rational sense whatsoever.

    • Atsap Revol says:

      “Normal, moderate, tolerant, reasonable faith?” Oxymorons. There is no such thing as normal, moderate, tolerant or reasonable religious faith.

      Ar

      • Zuri says:

        DAWC, comments like this make me think that most Pastafarians are former Christians that grew up in fanatical families. We’re not all crazy fanatics that want to kill everyone that doesn’t think like us. Most Christians have moderate beliefs that cause no harm for anyone.
        That’s why I get so ticked off when people make comments about how all Christians are crazy and have no place in humanity and how we should all be killed for sport (I was about to call the police for that one) or put away somewhere or kept from breeding. HINT! If it wasn’t for religious people reproducing, a good half of the population wouldn’t be here.
        I was especially shocked at the “I bet those pirates got some fun. PFGHAHAHAHAHAHA.” So that’s it? Killing innocent people for being religious is now a sport, something to be enjoyed or done for fun? It’ll only be a couple of centuries before Christians are being kidnapped and brought to an arena where an atheist kills them for sport and gets a score on it, like a ball game. To that poster: You call me a lunatic because I believe two of every animal fit on a boat for 40 days and nights, and that Jesus turned water into wine. Meanwhile you’re advocating killing people as sacrifices to a drunk bowl of flying spaghetti up in the sky pooping out planets? Who exactly is the crazy one here? Who exactly is doing more harm?
        I would like to hear back from you, DAWC. You asked for a comment to support my claim and I gave it to you. Ball’s in your court.

        • nun sequitur says:

          zuri…the poster u r responding 2, ,,,eric ,,said he was NOT advocating those actions b taken…he said NOT to do these things, ,,read it again.

        • nun sequitur says:

          ‘if it wasnt for religious people reproducing, a good half of the population would not b here’

          says zuri.

          BUT oh zuri, u so love slumming it with the BAD half.
          WHERE do u gather these stats? The SAME thing could b said of people
          born of RAPES, coercions, etc. I also ask u 2 consider how many otherwise so called
          religious folk opt for birth control & even termin8 pregnancies. Stop pretending 2 speak for some
          imagined moral majority, please. Number or thrust of arguments does not make u automatically correct, &
          this is coming from an overposter (me)…i do not play ball & not on ur court, either. No offense.

        • nun sequitur says:

          I m here because my ma wanted 2 have babies…i was 1 of these…& i would venture 2 say more people r borne outta horniness…or, utilizing methods employing a syringe…

        • nun sequitur says:

          & request people stop throwing around the term ‘crazy’ …calling 1 another, crazy. the people offended by ‘cursewords’ think NOTHING of using th term ‘crazy’. that’s…i would say in-sane, but it is JUST as harmful. it carries a negative connotation, then people wonder y some1 whom is depressed & having difficulties does not ask 4 help…perhaps it is because people r guarding against being called ‘crazy’…

        • Zuri says:

          nun, I was talking about a post in the “Christian missionaries captured by pirates” post, not this one.

        • nun sequitur says:

          regarding what?

        • nun sequitur says:

          Ok zuri, i linked 2 the story you were referring, to..& ( if that is a real news story), agree, it is horrific.

        • nun sequitur says:

          hav been accused of replyng 2 posts on other boards, being o.t. but am not alone in this.

          do not advocate book burning, but if that story in other post referred 2 is true, i would sooner c some1 have property confiscated or destroyed, if it comes down 2 some1 being so offended that they feel murder is a justifiable proposition…

          i really do not understand that story..i just have said thanks & take th materials; this is different, when ive had 2 continue 2 b around people expecting me 2 respond…

          & if it is so, this story, the fact the participants r missionaries…is what brought them, there, but could have lost their lives 4 any # of reasons, not pertaining 2 their missionary work.

          if some1 that opposed 2 a book on religion, give it away, 2 some1 whom wants it or use as kindling-

          according to buckminster fuller, his saying every1 must b in agreement for utopia is not so far off from the missionaries telling us that every1s soul must b saved by christ.
          i posted a link 2 the incendies film, on another thread.

        • Drained and Washed Clean says:

          I already addressed all of this. What the definition of fanatical is (not torturous), how all of you technically want to kill all of us who are not like you because you constantly threaten us with hell. No one should be killed for sport, and anyone who has said that is wrong.

          But the fact of the matter is you have still yet to come in with an argument that is proven with facts and evidence. You jump to conclusions and put your words in other people’s mouths. Facts are facts, and every animal on earth fitting on a boat is ridiculous. As is the earth stopping for 24 hours. As is someone rising from the dead after 3 days. As is a talking snake. No one has called you a lunatic (that would be the you putting words in other people’s mouths thing again), but claiming such things without proof is not going to earn you any points in the smarts department. Every one of the plagues can be explained scientifically. As can the parting of the sea (which they no longer think is the Red Sea). The bible and christianity are like every other religion that you don’t believe in. It explains things that, at the time, were unexplainable.

          What Atsap said is what I have been saying to you all along. There is no moderate if the end conclusion for people who don’t believe like you is death and torture. Especially with those followers reveling in it.

        • Zuri says:

          To DAWC:
          I’m going to start with the obvious. Everyone dies eventually, it has nothing to do with being religious or not. Nothing at all. It’s just a law of nature. Arguing it would be like arguing that circles are not round; you’re denying the plainly obvious.

          People go to hell or heaven through death. There’s difference between warning someone of hell and saying “I hope you die” or something along those lines. There’s also a difference between a warning and a threat. I know some people have threatened you, and they are wrong. I’m not responsible for them, and nor is any other kind Christian trying to make a point. It’s the same as blaming you for the guy that was praising the pirates.

          I’m only in sixth grade, and science is not my best subject, so I’ll just explain this one the best I can. Every living organism got here somehow. They all have parents, who have parents, who have parents…..so on and so forth. At the beginning of time, there were far less animals on Earth, inhabiting a much smaller space than they do today. Over time, populations have moved and reproduced and evolved into more organisms, so a few animals in a small space have turned into trillions and trillions spreading across a whole world. Thus, at the beginning of time, yes, two of every animal may have fit on a large boat. I don’t know about the plagues or the parting of the Red Sea, but I’m sure I’ll learn that soon.

          Believe it or not, I have other things to think about than this website. I don’t recall exact words that were said to me, and I don’t have the time to scour every post and look for them. Maybe the exact word wasn’t correct, but something along the lines of “lunatic”- “delusional”, “fanatical”, “insane”, something like that.

          Have you even bothered to learn about religion or the Bible at all? Not those little Bible stories your parents read to you when you were three, and not the atheist information websites and books that bring up Bible stories and how “delusional”, “skewed”, “warped”, and “fake” they are. I’m talking about a real, objective source of information- or better yet, the real Bible. I know it’s not exactly “objective”, but the best way to get the facts is to go straight to the source.

          Ball’s in your court, again.
          -Zuri

        • puppygoogoo says:

          Zuri,

          Your comment “Thus, at the beginning of time, yes, two of every animal may have fit on a large boat.” doesn’t work with the modern bible as the bible says god created all of the animals. Therefore evolution couldn’t have happend and new species couldn’t be created. We all know this is untrue and therefore the whole Noahs Ark story appears false. This argument doesn’t bring in the facts of housing the animals, feeding different animals and where such food was stored.

          Looking forward to your thoughts

          Puppygoogoo

        • Mal says:

          Zuri,

          First, I wanted to thank you for the fact that your posts are always well organized and respectful. That is a rare treat from the typical, nonsensical babble we get from the site’s other Christian visitors. However, I do have a few points for you.

          1. Telling someone they will burn in hell for all eternity if they don’t believe what you believe is a threat, no matter how one looks at it.

          2. Proponents of the “young earth” school of thought (i.e. the majority of creationists) argue that all living things that currently exist have always existed in exactly their present state since God created them. If that premise is to be accepted, then two of every animal in existence today would have had to fit on the Ark, a physical impossibility without direct divine intervention, which cannot be proven.

          3. This one is by far the most important point I could possibly make to you. Many of the most common posters on this site have not only bothered to learn about religion, but some of them, including myself, are actually traditionally educated experts on the matter. I have a Bachelor or Arts in Religious Studies, and I am currently pursuing a Master of Arts in Anthropology with an emphasis on spirituality and its influence on societal development.

          4. The problem with being able to go “straight to the source” as you say is that in the case of Christianity, that’s impossible. What we know as the Old Testament existed almost exclusively as a collection of oral histories until the 2nd century BCE. The letters that made up the bulk of the New Testament did not survive long enough to be transcribed directly into the first collective copy of what is called the Bible today. Let’s also keep in mind that all the books that currently make up the Bible would have been written in 5 different languages with approximately 20-25 separate dialects between them. That is a TON of room for improper translation, especially considering that the first copy of what we call the Bible was compiled at a time of extreme upheaval in the Church by religious leaders from 5 separate areas of the world, making agreeing on a single translation nearly impossible. They could not even decide whether Jesus was all man and created of divinity or if he was divine himself.

          I would strongly encourage that you spend a little more time learning about your own religion before criticizing other people’s understanding of it.

        • Atsap Revol says:

          DAWC, “scientific” explanations for the plagues in Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea are silly. These events are unsubstantiated myths. Science doesn’t seek to explain mythology. Recent TV productions also have provided “scientific” explanation for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. These “scientific” explanations are (in Latin) feces tauri.

          ZURI, many of us have studied the Bible. Others of us were once Christians. You earlier stated that you came into Christianity because that was your parent’s religion. Isn’t that how most Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists came into their religion? The population of the earth is about 7 billion. Less than one-third claim to be Christians (and that includes people like Fred Phelps and Peter Popoff). According to your beliefs, God must have created a Hell that is over twice the size of His Heaven, because there will be at least twice as many souls headed for Hell as there are going to Heaven. Many of those going to Hell will never have heard of your Savior, Jesus Christ. Does that make you feel special?

          Atsap Revol

        • TheFewTheProudTheMarinara says:

          If the BuyBull was written by religious fanatics (Pat Robertson, I’m looking at you) today or a hundred years from now, perhaps the Haiti earthquake would be a plague from god for practicing voodoo. The Twin Towers would have been magically collapsed by an angel’s trumpet for America’s liberal laws.

  2. Phea says:

    Benny Hinn – Dark Lord of the Sith

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9SS95q2kpg

    This is one BAD-ASS faith healer!

    • theFewtheProudtheMarinara says:

      I wonder if a faith healer could help me with my hearing. It’s next Thursday.

  3. Duke Airanda Tension says:

    But they don’t stop at killing childen, some of them will kill adults (usually for cash). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14406818

    “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours” – Stephen Roberts

    • Duke Airanda Tension says:

      Sorry typo, meant “children” – doh!

      The Christian god makes man human, then burns him when he acts like one. – anon

  4. Atsap Revol says:

    Dale an Shannon Hickman were sentenced yesterday to six years and three months in prison for allowing their infant child to die without seeking medical attention. The Hickmans belong to an Oregon City “Faith Healing Church.” This is not the first death of a child linked to church members who believe that prayer is the only approach to illness. The Hickmans were convicted of second-degree manslaughter. They will be on post-prison supervision for three years.

    The presiding judge termed the prison time a “justly earned sentence.” I agree, and I hope that this will serve as a strong lesson to “Faith Healers” in Oregon and elsewhere. As I stated earlier in this thread, let the “Faith Healers” do their praying in the waiting room of the emergency ward while their offspring receive appropriate medical treatment.

    Atsap Revol

    • Zuri says:

      Last sentence: Bingo. That’s what happened to me after my premature birth. My family did pray for me, but obviously they went to the hospital and got me medical care. I’m here 12 years later, perfectly healthy.

      • Atsap Revol says:

        Zuri, I’m glad your parents had the sense to seek medical attention for you when you needed it. Have a good life.

        Ramen,
        Atsap Revol

      • nun sequitur says:

        if there were proper care prior 2 & thruout pregnancies, less premature births & miscarries would occur…& there is also a realistic expectation of fertility improvements without needing elaborate procedures…it often has 2 do with a common food ingredient many have no idea is causing them harm…it can affect every system in the body, in offsprings developing body as well…when it goes unidentified. if any1 is going 2 pray, pray people start paying attention 2 this. I have a family member born prematurely, just barely made it & is not what i would call okay…& this ‘miraculous’ survival was preceeded by 2 unmiraculous stillbirths. Prayer had zip 2 do with it.

        the following is a snippet on faith healing & intercessionary prayer from wikiped-antic-edia:

        hile faith in the supernatural is not in itself usually considered to be the purview of science, [37][38] claims of reproducible effects are nevertheless subject to scientific investigation.

        A Cochrane review of intercessory prayer [39] found conflicting evidence for claims of a positive effect, but there was a conclusion that “evidence presented so far is interesting enough to justify further study.” A recent study not included in the review found that intercessory prayer had no effect on complication-free recovery from heart surgery, but curiously the group certain of receiving intercessory prayer experienced

        higher rates of complications. [40] (See also Studies on intercessory prayer)

        A group at Johns Hopkins published a study in 2011 reporting no significant effects on pain, mood, health perceptions, illness intrusiveness, or self-efficacy, but a small improvement in reported energy in a double-

        blind study to test the efficacy of spiritual exercise in chronically ill adults. [41]

      • nun sequitur says:

        Zuri, if u r 12 y.o. as this post implies & was just first noticed here, i do wonder how it is u r lurking about online, let alone a site with adult content (the beer discussion alone)…with or without parental supervision? Don’t kids take piano lessons or karate anymore? If u really r 12, had i known this may not have mentioned artificially enhancing reproductive capacities by laboratory measures, but u could b a genetic scientist 1 day, so u probably should know how people come to exist on this earth…as to the rest of the details, i suggest u r 2 go ask some1 trustworthy… ur parents, doctor or pastor, a teacher- before posting further on the subject.

        • Zuri says:

          1. Please, use real words instead of abbreviations. They make the post easier you read and make you seem smarter.

          2. I’ve been “lurking about online” since I was six. It’s not hard for someone my age to get on the Internet.

          3. Six is also around the time I got my head out of my behind. I know what beer is. It’s a drink. What’s so inappropriate about it? It’s not like I’m drinking it. I’ve heard worse at school. Kids my age aren’t skipping around as sweet, innocent, clueless children anymore. Maybe back in the day, 12 year olds were outside climbing trees, but now most kids i know think they’re adults. Where have you been?

          4. If you think kids aren’t smart enough to surf the Web, what makes you think they’d understand something like “artificially enhancing reproductive capacities by laboratory measures”? What does that mean? Granted, science is my worst subject, but I don’t think the deluded image you have of me as a sweet, clueless little girl could understand that in the least.

          5. What does any of this post have to do with the original topic?

          I’ll get back to tracking Santa now……

          -Zuri

        • nun sequitur says:

          no comment on what u presume ur image is or is not on this end.

          I will use what abbrev. r neccessary 4 me 2 make typing easier; i liv with physical pain which is intrusive & if u dont like how i abbrevi8…o well, am sorry i cannot accomod8 ur directive…this is how i type unfortunately & rarely make efforts otherwise 4 valid reason. maybe not valid enuf 4 u, but that another topic completely.

          if u r not old enough 2 drink, i m not inclined 2 hear ur thoughts
          on alchohol…unless it concerns that when u r of age, u either drink respobsibly or not @ all. It is not merely a drink, water is merely a drink…beer can create permeability issues in the lining of your intestines, among other things & i am not ur teacher, doctor, parent, guardian, priest- i m a stranger 2 u & so, not in any position 2 elaborate further…

          2 that end, i gave u a suggestion. ASK UR GUARDIANS, not me, 4 elaboration. On anything u lack background, in.
          STILL STRONGLY encourage this. Science does not need 2 b ur strong suit for u 2 discuss my relevant reply with appropriate parties,,,which, adults online, not entirely reccomended… ask your guardians if they ever pick up a newspaper & not just church material once in awhile. ..i may b of no harm 2 u, but this is not a given in 2days world & refer u back 2 guardians on that topic, as well.

          my response has everything 2 do with the thread & ur reply, 2 it. U r painting an example of statistics & i replied. moreover, u do not have 2 agree with anything i say. had i known ur age, id not have responded 2 ur skewed statistics 2 begin with.

          Merry Christmas.

        • nun sequitur says:

          & holding out santa as a worthwhile pursuit is fine, but if u c the flying spaghetti monster, give a hearty hello, from me. Or, don’t…i m not telling u what 2 do.

        • Zuri says:

          On the above post: Your sarcasm grates.

  5. ufo says:

    While it is true that there are many reasonable people who get something positive out of their religion, the hard-line atheist approach might be just the thing to nudge these reasonable people to question their remaining mystical delusions (if any). If we’re talking about Unitarians, there is probably not much in the way of mystical thinking among their ranks, and their community is probably a completely positive social force. But for people who are going along with the BS of a more fundamentalist sect (aka cult) to fit in with their friends and families, the harsh truths exposed by the “Four Horsemen” of the New Atheists, might be just the thing.

    • nun sequitur says:

      people r not all in posession of belief in a deity for want of fitting in with ‘family & friends’. ..there r many isolated individuals thoroughly believing in this way & gain no reward for it on this earth..so, i disagree with unitarian churches could b equally called a place where people r looking for UNITY as anywhere else…just by an adjusted definition.

    • nun sequitur says:

      …4 that matter, rather than call it a CHURCH, Citizen Containment Facility would b more fitting…

    • nun sequitur says:

      I recalled ufo speaking on unitarianism & (we knew a person attending said church whom was a scientist- now departed, but not forgotten)…came accross this on buckminster fuller, while doing research on housing ideas for flood zones (my parents once lived by ocean in storm zone, keep hearing about destruction of property, injury & loss of life from such events & my spouse does building)…buckminster came up with the geodesic dome- more recently, the monolithic dome structure has been said to surpass this in some ways. . .i bring this up because mr fuller was a unitarian, the son of a unitarian minister & seems to me, a standup guy some would say was ‘blessed’ (@ least endowed or, exhibiting) with sensibilities important for humanity:

      from wiki:

      In his 1970 book I Seem To Be a Verb, he wrote: “I live on Earth at present, and I don’t know what I am. I know that I am not a category. I am not a thing—a noun. I seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process—an integral function of the universe.”

  6. nunya biz says:

    SUPER LONG. Sorry I have been referring 2 this as not a real religion…
    This refers in part, 2 sin & also explains y id been here mentioning Judaism, also is a goodbye not that it matters…because I am in physical pain. Ive had THAT blamed on ‘sin’, including non conversion.
    @ some pt I look @ these things & know waste of energy 2 respond 2 these letters, find it disturbing & upsetting. . .people sent death threats, 2 sites creator.

    We knew people involved in a murder suicide. I met some1 lost fiance when he was killed, hit by vehicl, as pedestrian,after the driver fell asleep & went on the berm. I ve had accidents not my fault I was blamed for, in which I was hurt…my chest, spine, into my legs arms hands, feet, face, head, other places still hurt, my legs & arms go numb, heavy- I could not stand up 4 myself against head games…this, site…while appreciate the effort, does TRY TO COMBAT HATE.
    …in some ways i know nothing will matter, overall…nothing that is said.
    Religion will not ever cease to exist…but science is threatened, by having challenges made, not all of challenges r ethically or morally unfounded, , ,oddly, I have heard of for the 1st time,: the potential justifications for cruelly treating lab animals,,,because apparently many people r taught things including religiously based…how animals r tiered on life scale, something about dominion over earth & everything in it…(animals have pain receptors)… i hit a deer 1 day & was distraught…& hoped deer ok, after I say these things, suddenly every hunter in the vicinity wants 2 tell me about the gory details of dissection, shooting deer & how much they love gutting the kill, the thrill of killing, etc. Which = head games. Many medical advances would not b here without this & it becomes difficult to ammend. We decry the treatment of human beings like animals…in the holocaust as 1 example, people r led for the most part unwittingly, 2 their horrific suffering & death, rounded up, treated many have drawn correlations to cattle during transport…& like ANIMALS instead of human beings…& what does THAT SAY, about how we treat our animals? DO we overcrowd them & harm them? We have been accused of elevating our pets to human like levels…then I meet a man that as part of his education, participated in caring for a lab animal thatd had a heart transplant; animal had no heart issues, 2 start with…next we r horrified 2 learn PETS which 4 various reasons, animals which have spent their entire existence as near family members can and have ended up @ shelters or other places where they end up getting shipped to labs, are infected with things & have non essential surgeries performed & without things like proper pain management taken into account. Unwarranted suffering also happens 2 people.

    Myself, I get migraine headaches where I recently developed a new feature…not being able to see out of my eye for a time…(where already have issues). Some headaches, can barely address…same with pain- & have had ENTIRELY unadressable pain so severe I would prefer death…this not taken seriously because Ive been suicidal as is. ..but the conclusion I came to, a question; can u tell, if ur pet has a headache? If their vision becomes involved? What about lab animals? It seems bizarre, but have u ever wondered if the meat ur eating had once suffered a painful injury or went hungry thirsty & cold while it lived …& if it died ‘humanely’, it was still an entity sacrificed for our survival. The pain & head games takes me places I shouldn’t go. I had an insurance agent ask if our dog was hurt after thrown into the rear seat & floor with force, in an accident…I almost, sarcastically, was going to answer, hold -on phone I will go ask her- the fact is, we cannot do that. I could not tell, because I was hurt & overwhelmed myself & dog cannot speak as 2 yes, hurt RIGHT here ever since that wreck…The dog WAS hurt …& we have had even THAT denied…(oh well…these little pets can have issues…she had begun suddenly screaming, shaking uncontrollably & holding up her leg )- a family member that died a horrible death from illness, was in a line of work where he witnessed accidents- & another where he pronounced persons dead in various situations… including the deaths of persons we have known- & took a family member to the scene of a violent accident involving drinking,,, to deter drunk driving/educate…know someone that lost a body part & a parent died in the vehicle, as a drunk driver had veered off the roadway into their parked car they were sitting, in.. .my dad pulled a man out of his crashed, burning automobile…persons, have known, surviving & not surviving, cancer, heart surgery… aware of person shot himself in head & lived, with life being relative to what condition it left him, in…
    I think, in spite of what reservations I ve about so many aspects of religion, am tired of having as a constant companion as persons, misguided…use it AS a weapon. YET- should some1 derive comfort from an idea, a concept… like the heavens above, or that they will all b together again one day, every1, the lost pets & persons, if it is real or not but it keeps a person SANE, how can THAT b a BAD THING? Even if it is not seeming 2 b scientifically valid, it is relevant, to some degree & if it served no purpose, @ all, it would be …gone. AND yet- I go back to thinking it ought, b…when i m told persons in the court system people overstep justifications like spreading some1s private health matters all over the national news, , ,a celeb died recently… ALSO had pain. HE IS DEAD & STILL ALL OVER THE NEWS, HAD NO PRIVACY IN LIFE & now details of his death & health, all over place, they may as well publish the records- WHAT ABOUT HIPPA?
    The lawsuits concerning his medicine complications are going 2 set yet another precedent & the stricter oversights get, the more this TERRORIZES doctors TREATING pain…& u cannot speak about it really because IF U DO, UR PRIVACY IS COMPLETELY VIOLATED in a field which is COMPLICATED ENOUGH for both patients & drs AS IT IS & we r @ MORE than 1 war, currently. THE WAR on DRUGS = a war on MEDICINE to some degree & those whom take it…I have stated that I do not abuse meds & have been approached by persons from campus getting DEGREES in addiction as it turns out & spouses associate whom has been in recovery screamed @ me over his issues after asking me 2 visit, because he may have been 1 of people online baiting topics & our account was hacked…he has a degree in medical field…& UNWARRANTED ACCESS 2 records INCLUDING ability 2 ALTER them & the POWER & AUTHORITY 2 make it appear that there was no involvement…& 2 interfere with peoples lives on levels & in ways which keep the finger pointed @ some1 already victimized & vulnerable. I’ve been EXPRESSLY LIED ABOUT & WILL CONTINUE 2 B. Because I objected 2 being lumped into a category have been BAITED into discussions, had my intellect compared to that of a slug essentially, have things twisted, so that it will appear what I’ve said is unsupported, countered… & successfully so…the person that invited me over 2 yell also mentioned having an interest in religion, was writing a book about it & he & his wife brought up the holocaust 2 me & about Judaism…which I NEVER STATED to them anything about my beliefs 1 way or another…& I challenge any1 2 remain sane in such an environ, even the healthiest LAB specimens among us have caving points & if u piss off the wrong authority, ever, or group of, or groups of… u will discover this, for urself. Death threats are one thing, but being ENCOURAGED 2 die from NUMEROUS factors…when u already WISH u were, so- NOT a great combo…

    I ADMIRE people whom have blind faith. . . This is Y people maybe unfairly compare religion ‘extremism’ 2 being brainwashed…it seems that way 2 people whom feel that by compare, that is ir- rational, but we probably all hold irrational beliefs @ 1 time or another & this not unique 2 religion. All these studies, tho- about how persons religious r so much happier…if u r not in the majority & have no virtual cheerleading squad & r pushed 2 reveal PRIVATE held CONVICTIONS- or really HAVE NONE as far as religion & do not find it RELEVANT, THIS SEEMS 2 OFFEND PEOPLE EVEN MORE. I KEPT on being asked, over & over WHAT R U (IDENTIFY URSELF), R U Jewish, r u this? IS pain a religion? Because I am in excruciating pain now. I am FULL of it. OVERFLOWING. THIS connects me to others in pain, but it is not a religion…I dont have any investment or connection to it & did not choose this, but have been accused by persons happening to b both religious & in law enforcement that it is my fault 4 manifesting…some1 is interfering with online experience & altering page displays…
    & some others in pain have made it clear 2 me, are not satisfied with some1 NOT categorizing themselves, because I KEPT being asked. Again & again. Finally I offered information about myself 4 example, my upbringing- which is not really any of any1s business…because we kept getting invitations to churches, church functions, referred 2 church run places & the faith healing offers & y do u not feel this approach is valid, r u saved, have u found jesus, well no wonder u r suffering…how,good people do not…only persons deserving pain suffer.

    AS the head games continue, still.

    IF I answer just 2 provide an answer, it does not end there. I was raised ‘this’ way. ALL of this enquiry began after a judge & d.a. my dr told us made remarks about jews always being a particular way,, ,& after this, a whole lot of well R U Jewish, u r arent u? & after I mentioned all the attempts to convert me, I was ultimately ‘befriended’ by a person saying HEY i m thinking of CONVERTING 2 Judaism, in an attempt 2 get me 2 ‘pitch’ it, I guess…
    I mentioned then, that I guess I never noticed any1 DOING THIS growing up…& got then approached by my spouse telling me certain persons r detailing 2 him things about their religious upbringing…out of the blue & repeats this, 2 me.

    How would this matter, what my beliefs r 2 any1? I had a therapist ask me what happens 2 me AFTER I m dead? I did not understand. It was explained this is hypothetical. I had not considered it. I answered. I wasnt invested in the response because I did not care what ‘awaited’ my dead body @ the time past being an organ donor. My response was MOCKED. His face got red, he stood up out of the chair so fast & unbalanced it, was nearly like he jumped out of it & scared me, , ,he said louder & seeming disturbed with my answer, really angry how I am WRONG, that was the WRONG answer & THAT , that is my problem, right there…i kept going there until I realized it was not ‘therapeutic’ him behaving this way… when he began misqualifying me & said as I was sitting quietly, after he called me back into his office, asked me a question, I answered & instead of him responding, he gave me a measured look, ignored my answer 2 his question & after a silence, said…he could… call…security. For no reason.
    AFTER THAT members of that & then another community with interlocking members, including health community, began discussions & conversations were baited & in increased pain was instructed 2 go 2 hospital, where I was told was my only option…because, after I had got up the courage 2 complain about the therapist 2 admin, I got patted literally on the back &( there, there), u just stick with…ur (other) family doctor. After this that doctor tells me admin was having him discharge me…as part of some blanket policy to do with the handling of pain patients..
    suddenly, everywhere I went got accused of neccessitating security…
    had persons asking about meds, meds, pain, meds, drs, diagnoses.
    Since it was clear that therapist despised me, suddenly persons r enquiring into whom may dislike me IN… my family, for example. Trying 2 get me 2 discredit myself…I told admin about the therapist because one of his other patients went on approved visitation with his daughter (her mother, his estranged wife, he had been stalking) & the man stabbed his own toddler child 2 death…the man it was later said, was in the process of converting from muslim to christianity…this objection to my answer all
    nothing came of my co …

    considered 2 B ‘appropriate’ & POPULAR, u will have a virtual CHEERING SQUAD essentially following u around, every1 in the SAME CLUB as u ALL have the power of an all seeing, knowing, ALMIGHTY being behind u which I have been told is just about INTOXICATING, inspiring …yet I venture that of all the persons ever to shoot themselves or some1 else, blow up persons & property, launch wars, some really SUPREMELY DEVOUT & otherwise, HONORABLE people. . .the sins washing- I see as a way people move forward, trying not to ‘sin’ THOSE ways, again…but the existence of confessionals r testimony to the fact that u ‘sin’ all ur days & something that creates divides- I once 1/2 ‘jokingly’ asked a person going there if I could just VISIT 2 c what it is like…& this was taken as SUCH an OFFENSIVE request. Id been 2 other churches, with friends, to temples…what was SO deplorable about this idea? People r allowed 2 have boundaries, & I did not particularly even care 2 go, it was more the idea I was not welcome & have no gripe about it, but that person ended up trying 2 initiate things with me am guessing, he had a trip to confessional for…because as I am told, the impure thoughts must be shared. So just the idea I could b essentially GOSSIPED about there, behind my back & yet NOT, physically GO there in person (@ least, not in a welcome way) makes for divisions between people.

    SCIENCE. THAT was y I mentioned the holocaust-(not just, it) the horrific experiments done. I’ve been told that Science needs as its ethics gague, religion. . . certainly there were Nazis (in charge of directing inhumane experiments) with religious convictions. Not suggest science ought have free reign with no ethics, but unfair to say religion MAIN guideline for providing that. If it is, WHICH one? ALL of the religions? & it is easier 2 say animal experiments are wrong when u r not the person waiting for an organ, etc. Even with organ donations, some1 must b sacrificd, die, first.

    When John Lennon sang imagine there is no country, no religion, , ,I’ve heard people taking this as a THREAT some1 will take religion away…& trying 2 place these ideas into categories,,,’unrealistic’ or something political & radical. If u think of it like the anti smoking commercials with bubbles replacing smoke, & the words, imagine a world without smoking…many ideas do not have support because, those that WOULD do so r OTHERWISE DEAD but r DEAD because the idea WAS NOT supported while on this plane of existence. Nearly every person dead of lung disease if permitted 2 live again would likely b in support of anti smoking, persons dead from war: campaign 4 peace- there r documented cases which include paranormal aspects wherein armed soldiers were inspired 2 drop weapons, cease fighting/abandon posts & all described a sudden, overwhelming positive emotion with enough force that it stood out beyond any they had each ever known, altho each experience was unique 2 the individual in the details & there was a shared visual ‘hallucination’ of a falling light in the sky. It was re-enacted for a series exploring this type of phenom & is on an actual court record…as all involved were charged with crime of going AWOL/cowardice, initially…It comes down not just 2 what u r willing 2 believe, but what we r able 2 comprehend with what experiences we do or do not, have.
    Some1 that has never had an ‘unexplained’ experience in the realm of the paranormal will tend 2 lump it in with fantasy…or mental illness, fabrication, or just discount it in some other way…but to any1 thats had an experience of any sort this category, it will tend 2 b accepted as possible. IMAGINING what could happen if it were possible, is extending an intention, , ,not unlike a prayer.

    In USA people coming here ages ago, avoiding religious persecution (elsewhere) came (here) & persecuted… decimated nearly an entire existing populous. I hear people talk about how CRAZY it is things still r not ‘settled’ in middle east, after all this time…& how it is all about certain religious differences- it is actually AMAZING all of the involved factions STILL EXIST. J.L. was talking about IMAGINE about erasing division lines- HAD any1 imagined unity back when above happened, we wouldnt have had all that…every single war.
    AFTER the murder suicide of persons we knew, I had gun advocates yelling @ me about guns & wishing 2 know our ‘stance’ on them, our political leanings questioned…after all this, JOKES start coming in…regarding guns. It should have been asked of them to picture their son lying dead of a gunshot placed there by some1 it turns out, ought NOT have had a gun, but it was not apparent until AFTER event- their opinion can go unchanged. I was not ever trying 2 change theirs 2 begin with. U do not need 2 outlaw guns 4 persons 2 choose 2 not use or need them, but every1 focused on strictly legislation …like if u start speculating on not NEEDING guns, that would mean altering the REASONS people HAVE them, which may not ever b possible ..People started volunteering 2 me, NIGHTMARE stories about people getting assaulted 4 their meds, & y my medicine should b pulled from shelves altogether having 2 do with abuses…when it comes 2 guns, this BARELY TOUCHED in as far as the law is concerned, because if things were altered by further restrictions, it could result in CAUSING OUTBREAKS of violence, a war, because of panic. If u look @ countries with lower ownership & gun fatalities & find out how this is managed, Y r people NOT afraid of NOT having guns, there, it can b a possibility, here, & it is a possibility. Same as 2 the climate surrounding our drug war impacting people on prescription meds as opposed 2 less of this, less abuses in other places in the world, how do they accomplish that, Y r not we…same with peace, if u study it…there is a possibility, 4 it. THIS is all conceived of b4 it can bcome actionable. For saying things like this, Ive been accused of not appreci8g or not liking the country we live in & of trying to limit the personal freedoms of others by virtue of merely having hoped 2 c improvements. When persons suggesting a possibility get threatened with death by persons whom love our country, it is often the person being threatened that is accused of hating the country, life, etc.
    The persons screaming @ me over the guns prior 2 this, said they had felt like reaching through the computer & strangling some1 whom disagreed with them; then, demanded of us 2 know if WE fit certain political category- then, began showing us materials from a political rally they claim 2 have attended, which apparently not favoring toward CATEGORY they prompted us, about. . .& the u came here thing , so whatd u expect… when invited over under a pretext. I never suggested ANYTHING about the guns to them, not once.
    If I post something anon, I get threats that persons will make it their business 2 find out who I m, was asked 4 my e address (by self proclaimed missionary) whom had a resentment twds me 4 something his spouse had asked 4 my assistance with, because it l8r conflicted with their views & I then started getting made fun of, over it, including having my name called LOUD accross the parking lot, identifying me first & then loudly making fun of me. Topic baiting, which has continued, including via persons approaching us in the gluten free area, also waiting in spots we are heading twds & then introducing topics…recently this has progressed 2 including persons wearing a cross…persons have tried BRINGING UP THE HOLOCAUST 2 ME, including an person that went out of the way 2 explain their tattoo as a cryptic referrence 2 hitler & I had asked nothing about it. It is actually better, because the leader of a supremacist group intentionally kept this affiliation from a family member of mine but initiated contact, asked the person out- only when the person led a literal supremacy parade listed in the news did any1 know. There had been undermining gossip circulating 4 some time, by then. THE GROUP AFFILIATES ITSELF AS RELIGIOUSLY BASED. It is not the same thing, FSM. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTING 2 POINT OUT. People sending hate mail to HATE GROUP makes more sense.holocaust deniers/supporters= HATE. Also sorry for disrespecting ur gluten…but it really messed up our health & not a belief, a fact.
    one intentionally being denied. like 2 many things.

  7. nunya biz says:

    missing portions:

    the therapist referrenced above was asked to leave the catholic hosp & sent to another, lutheran operated practice, after his other patient ,on his approved visitation with daughter stabbed toddler to death… The man had been stalking his estranged wife, the childs mom…& was sent there for evaluation due to that & was cleared -by that very therapist…for unsupervised visitation, @ which point he killed the child (The same therapist lived in same small community where murder suicide happened & where the guy toting around the devil news article , thatd actively tried 2 convert me, lived)

    People can b very FAKE nice 2 u before revealing intentions 2 attempt 2 dissuade u from beliefs ,,,u MAY or may not, have! The attempt is to find out, , ,Bill Maher in his film Religiosity put it along the lines of, he will find out in the afterlife if there is a god or not & reserving for the possibility is fine, considering the attributes this god has been by all accounts, imbued with…not in those words, precisely.

    I explained to admin @ the place I was scolded, about my experience & was not taken seriously, even though the therapist in question was ultimately made 2 leave, more 2 avoid scandal, , ,

    persons in the community said inapplicable things like WELL, there is NO JUSTICE on THIS earth. . .thats for the next life…including area catholic church members, about things they would otherwise have NO knowledge of, without prying into records they had no invitation to enter. TACTICS. Tactical & deliberate, intentional.

    . That man he cleared for visitation that murdered his toddler, was in the process of converting from one religion, to another (muslim to christian) @ the time it was later reported…& my point was, in my complaint, that the therapist was biased (emphasized ‘proper’ vs improper religious beliefs)…which was underlying the question I was asked, unknown 2 me. ..I did not know it was a pass or fail quiz.

    HENCE some of the sarcasm seen in my posts, about detailing & assigning very determinate ‘probabilities’ grew from this unwarranted treatment. I have become a problem 2 b eliminated & treated accordingly. . .while he, still, has a career.

    & cannot complain about persons COMPILING my records, because they r altered, ACCORDINGLY 2 account 4 anything I say.

    Surely the therapist would have preferred having a patient sharing his convictions, considering his behavior twds me, when i answered his question …evidently, outside the bounds of religion…essentially I had replied when dead r dead & didnt pretend 2 have all th answers & while had not even then ruled out other possibilities, that sufficed. He never said Y he asked, me.

    He wouldv had really pleasant exchanges with some1 that had a better answer, I guess, so that he doesnt have to scold any1…I said that was unprofessional & unethical & do STRONGLY suspect if that man had gone to another therapist, the toddler would have been protected…& be just about junior high age, by now I believe.

    The murder suicide couple left behind a toddler ALSO & one of the 1st things 2 happen were persons criticizing the couples ‘lifestyle’. . .as if THAT were the cause…& a custody dispute was planned; HEAD GAMES, massive ones, were played with us…concerning prying from us details of their lives, we had some knowledge, of & denying certain things we know 2 b true. . .& just allowed it 2 happen… We had stopped speaking 2 them, for things they had done against us which we ought have sought out legal guidance, but since their passing so horribly, & knowing they left behind their child have come 2 forgive her, which I have struggled more, with him…no god involved. Certain things are kept to ourselves, in part to protect their child.

    I am not religious & did not go there 2 discuss religion or what becomes of us when we die, because I have never been interested until after this what amounts to harrassment. HE brought it up… & then raised his voice & MADE FUN OF ME, for my answer.

    I would have liked to join, here, altho do not quite understand…do not denounce my heritage because of things …including but not limited to the holocaust, the fact that there r still deniers, of not only this, due 2 supremacists, & 2 such persons that feel it is appropriate 2 eliminate a people…it is not a religion, to me. It is more than that. I inherited, a culture; do I think any subset of personhood should b killed for? No, it should b REASONED for & we should respect our cultural inheritances without trying to eliminate or denounce anothers.

    This retention of what amounts to little more than a shadow of an identity MEANS NOTHING really in reality…it stays out of respect, but not because I am obligated or directed by god which is the premise for the religious aspect. It is maybe also, partly because I have been pursued all my life 2 denounce this & embrace this, or this… do not feel I need 2 repeat how mean that is, but as it had been condoned & supported & even ( if I consider certain things now in retrospect), EXPECTED, this is difficult to convey, , ,but the nature of things being what they are, if true tolerance is attained, nobody will care @ all 2 delineate themselves in specific subtexts, because it will have become unneccessary.

    My meltingpot unity remarks have gotten me some ‘kind’ advice …it so happens, from some1 practicing Christianity, but couldve come from anywhere,,,telling me that ‘some people’ DO NOT LIKE this line of thinking…as if I am not, already aware?

    Nobody ought b doing anything by way of bullying, or guilt, or fear. I see things here I do not quite get, & am probably just too stupid, to. I also have larger concerns, , ,but appreciate what has been done effort end & purchased a piece of ur merchandise as a seasonal gift 4 some1, 2 support ur continued efforts.

    & what little it is worth, if I had better known my own (worth) ages ago, & had been smarter I would have asked that guy 2 go 1st & answer his own ? & say I do not have the answer…because nobody does. But now recall some things about how energy is neither created nor destroyed…Id however have said I was expecting HE would tell me….since he has all the right answers. He had 2 prompt me 2 answer, because I didnt realize there was an actual expectation I do so.

    Entire section was missing, above. Hence this.

    A sign @ the Catholic run hospital stating that all services are delivered through Gods Love (paraphrased) was placed on a wall /sign following my complaints…I was also told 2 pray for my relief from pain (albeit from a caring nun, so not say I was surprised) & had this REPEATED, 2 pray for same intervention, @ next clinic, after Id been ejected…(due 2 complaint…which I was falsely reassured not 2 worry, about b4 getting stabbed in back proverbially)…& a few more times, including Ins Co rep…suggested I will b prayed FOR…& by about a dozen persons since. What was not said was if the prayers were for my continued downfall, since people have been reliably so insincere, what they say, but really mean difficult 2 tell.

    I do not know this is the jurisdiction mainly of religion…but I no longer trust in any1 because of the head games, played.

    on renovation of area, that sign came down from the wall…& have not seen it back, since I made comments about church & state separation..the 1 about care being directed via GOD. I PROMISE u it was taken down because he was not THERE. The sign was a lie.

    U have wall plaques?

    Persons IN the medical community were asking me questions OUTSIDE the healthcare facility, not mentioning affiliation,,,& baiting topics, was told by persons IN health field to PRAY for pain relief, had staff persons lacking clearance accessing my information without my permission, getting me to SIGN clearances for releases of information that were not required & were not fully recognized for what they were.

    The hospital after I complained about th
    Things from my history taken intentionally out of context.

    On PSUs campus, the person running the paranormal group & a syndicated tv program got offended when things were pointed out about PSU backing a show promoting & favoring exorcisms by the catholic church, the hosts religion, but implying that the show had no bias- & have not seen enough of it, to know. There have been

    • theFewtheProudtheMarinara says:

      Nunya, you’e certainly welcome here, but for FSM’s sake, take a breath sometime and find a second hobby! Let someone else post.

      • nun sequitur says:

        my appearing here signifies something else i was encouraged not 2 do…& was up nearly entire evening save the 4 hours of rest granted thru meds & in spite of pain…if it is of any comfort 2 u, i m delirious nearly on several fronts & this ought perhaps go som way twds explaining some things…

        • nun sequitur says:

          & please do not referrence breathing…that is challenging me intermittently, for real.

  8. nun sequitur says:

    concerning the article, ‘couple found…’

    doll collecting is a valid hobby. not just 4 kids. or, maybe they could have responded to the’ sponsor a child ‘ requests for children international…

    I just do not want 2 c any more of this, as it is heartbreaking & unnecessary..(which is not unlike the sentiment regarding my posting).

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