I spent a while thinking of a good reply to this, without sounding like some sort of inbred hick or perhaps maybe to get your attention. However, I realize that there pretty much is no way for that to happen, if you put this in your hate-mail section, I’ll probably be mocked just as much as the next guy, who put the stupid comment about how you could never buy a pirate ship. I’m OK with that, I just wish people will actually think about what I have to say rather then ignorantly mocking what I believe personally. Whatever may happen, I don’t really mind, except that I cannot bring myself to be silent on this issue.
I am a Christian, whatever you may think about me, or absurd assumptions you may have about what I look like, think like, or speak like, realize this, I think all beliefs should be treated with equality. Atheism, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Agonist, Voodoo, whatever, I don’t care, if you believe that you are correct, then you have every right in the world to believe that with all your heart, and nobody should force you to believe what they believe. Now I also believe in open criticism of any of these religions, meaning your Pastafarian view that openly mocks religion. However, it is also my right to criticize the criticism, meaning though while I believe it is your right to mock, harass, and generally make religious persons miserable, I don’t believe it is morally right.
Atheism is a belief just as much as Christianity. Say whatever you want about facts and how religion is stupid and all those who practice it are all idiots, but it still comes down to the fundamental truth that you must believe this to be more true over the other option. I am again, completely fine with that, and that is why I love America so much, because we CAN believe differently then one another, and still live peacefully (to a degree) together. However, mocking is not the right way to go about arguing your belief.
By the way, here is the definition of mocking:1. Tease or laugh at in a scornful or contemptuous manner.
2. Make (something) seem laughably unreal or impossible.
To laugh at someone else’s belief that they dedicate their lives to is not funny or humorous, but I believe is rather childish and immature. This is the main reason why I would much rather sit down calmly with an atheist and have a rational discussion about each other’s beliefs, instead of smacking them in the face with a bible, and shouting how they are going to hell for not believing the undeniable truth that is the bible, or worse, calling their belief idiotic and getting my group of friends together and laughing and pointing in his face.
Of course there are people that do this, hence, you, and there will always be people like you. My job is try to convince you to be rational and discuss each others view points.
I could never put myself in your mindset and read this the same way through your eyes. To you, I just look like another idiot who took this seriously and decided to write a concerned letter and waste his time trying to teach you to be respectful, but the truth is, writing this helps me put my thoughts in order anyways.
If you do have one ounce of thought for my beliefs, at least view this letter with respect, and try to think about what I am thinking when I read this:
http://www.globalone.tv/forum/topics/student-punished-for-spaghetti?groupUrl=flyingspaghettimonster
What I am thinking is that the joke has gone to far. Of course this letter asks for intelligent discussion, and that seems to have never existed in your website, so before I go, let my put it in your language.
Fuck you, and lay off religion asshole.
Sincerely,
Austin
First of all, this is not a mock. As you can read nearly everywhere, this is a religion of respect, we do not blame other religions for their believe, we do not blame people for what the have faith in. We just don’t like who tries to impose their view to other persons. This can either be catholics trying to forbid abortion and omosexual civil marriages or a atheist who asks for the abolotion of christmas trees.
I would like also the remind you that it is not impossible to laugh at ourselves. Well, sometimes is a great choice, beacause laughing makes everything better, so i can happily say: “yes, i believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster” while eating some pasta at dinner with my friends. Why you can’t say, for example: “Yes, it’s quiete strange that God had to send his son to die and redeem us all just beacause a couple of us, long time ago, ate an apple”?
Probably you have to read something more on this site, we are rational and respectful, even though you finally insult us. So I ask you, in our language, please, look carefully in the “hate mail” and you will see a lot of rational discussion, and, you wrote “fuck you” but, thanks you, i often have sex with myself without your advice.
RAmen
i know its a typo but i think im going to become omosexual
Wow, a lot of effort in that one
“Atheism is a belief just as much as Christianity. ”
Is that what your pastor / priest / reverend told you? Yeah, they’re certainly objective on the topic of atheism, right?
If Atheism is a belief, then poverty has as much money as a millionaire. The inside of a cave is as brightly lit as the surface of the sun. And there is as much water in the middle of the desert as the middle of the ocean.
Of course, that is neither here nor there. For we all are full of belief. We are buoyed by the Knowledge that our Great Noodly Lord loves us and wants us to be well fed.
Good stuff dude (and not the spaghetti).
But then again just a little as any believer can prove the existence of their god, you cannot prove the non-existence of a god, thus atheism can only revert to believing that there is no god. That is fine by me.
But as long as you insist on saying “there is no god” without proving it scientifically, you are merely believing in your assumptions, which sound terribly like a religion to me.
If you however say you follow the non-god theory, you act like a scientist, acknowledging the fact that it’s a non proven theory and nothing more. Even evolution is still a theory, too. I mean it sounds crazy, looking at all the evidence – everything indicates very, very strongly that it is the way things work in nature, but we don’t have full scientific proof for it. We don’t have all the missing links or any other way e.g. in genetics to completely proof how evolutions works. Just piles of evidence that seems to support the theory, so we assume we’re on the right track there. Maybe until another scientist finds out that we’ve all been genetically engineered by some sick aliens or some other crazy shit (maybe they find the EULA within our DNA some day ;-).
Without explaining the difference between a belief and a scientific theory for the 782nd time on this site, let’s look at other things that have not been disproved:
the Loch Ness monster
Bigfoot
Santa Claus
the Tooth Fairy
Catherine Zeta-Jones desire to leave Mr. Douglas for me
a fine porcelin teapot orbiting the sun
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, there is a difference between “I believe there is no god” atheism and “Based on the evidence I’ve seen, I don’t think God exists” atheism, and the second group is different from “I don’t have enough evidence to make a decision” agnosticism. As I’ve told many x-tians over the years, though I do not think there is a god, if I find myself before it when I die, I will still be prepared to justify myself. I do think that many of the “true non-believers” would find themselves just as shocked at being proven wrong as the “true believers” would.
Evolution is a fact, and the theory of evolution is just how we try to explain that fact. Just like we know gravity is a fact, and the theory of gravity tries to explain it.
Furthermore, Atheism is by definition the lack of belif. An atheist don’t belive that there isn’t a god. They don’t belive in a god. There is a difference there, if one care to see it.
But all that is pointless. The FSM created all and is our noodly lord. R’amen.
“just a little as any believer can prove the existence of their god, you cannot prove the non-existence of a god, thus atheism can only revert to believing that there is no god.”
You are arguing belief in disbelief, which makes no sense. If you start with “Belief” then remove it, what remains is an absence of belief.
All the while I thought that Atheism is Not Believing in a God/Deity for lack of evidence, unlike Christianity.
Well what do I know, I’m just employing Critical Thinking instead of pulling Christian BS from my ass.
Btw I Fuck myself too when my wife refuses to have sex.
Cheers!
Atheism is denying the existence of a higher power. Atheists still have beliefs (some may believe in evolution). Not all atheists are without humor. I, for one, love Pastafarianism. It cracks me up. Obviously I don’t believe in any of the supernatural parts of it, but it’s still a good read.
My only gripe is with people who take themselves too seriously. Otherwise, what does it matter if someone believes? If they believe in a God, as long as they don’t go about eating babies and kicking puppies, what do I care?
I do not “believe” in evolution. Belief is “confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof”. Evolution has plenty of “rigorous proof”. That is why it is a scientific theory in the first place.
Technically, atheism IS a ‘belief’. But it isn’t a religion :P. The main problem is that many fail to see the difference between the two.
I just wrote my lenghty post, just to find that you brought it to the point much better than I did in just one line.
Bastard.
Nefora, this argument has been made countless times over here; but, let’s run through it again
Saying atheism is a belief is like saying bald is a hair color. It’s like like saying “not collecting stamps” is a hobby.Atheism is a choice; it is the willful choice to not believe.
“Nefnora” my apologies.
It would appear that many people on this forum would benefit from a dictionary. Fettucini for the win!
“Atheism is a belief just as much as Christianity”
Being born and raised in North London, I am a supporter of Tottenham Hostpur Football Club. This places me in conflict with my grandfather, who supports Arsenal Football Club – our sworn enemies. I believe Tottenham to be the superior club, not due to footballing prowess per se, but more because of our history, fans, feel etc. My grandfather sees his club as superior. We often argue about our football clubs, and discuss other football teams. My grandmother on the other hand, does not care about football in the slightest. She does not support either team, and sees football as a stupid game that grown men should not be wasting their time watching.
My grandmother’s view is not in the same sphere as mine or my grandfather’s. She places herself outside of the whole football discussion. She thinks it is stupid, and fair enough – it probably is. However, we are not hurting anyone with our support for our football teams. It’s all harmless, it’s all good fun. You could argue that Football is actually a good thing – it helps communities, provides entertainments and employment. Yes, sometimes football fans go on a rampage trying to kill each other, but on the whole it’s a good thing.
If however, Tottenham Hostpur and Arsenal started influencing control over things that affected my grandmother – I think she would have good reason to be upset. If football started eating up her taxes, or started invading into areas that had nothing to do with football, or if she was judged on the basis of her apathy towards the sport by various important aspects of society… she would have every right to be upset and feel that this was unfair. She may even have to label herself as a ‘football atheist’ in order to highlight her position towards the matter.
Why is religion/atheism any different? Why is atheism viewed as a belief system that competes or operates in the same sphere of understanding as religion? If there was no religion, there would be no atheism. It’s not something that I ‘believe’ in. It’s a position that I am forced to take in a society where religion still plays a major role in order to highlight the fact that we do not all believe in religion, and so we should not have to be influenced by it. And I live in the UK – it’s a million times worse in the US.
Athiesm and religion are not the same thing, and should not be viewed as such. My grandmother does not support a non-football team. It’s illogical. They are not competing belief systems. I see Athiesm as a position that I am forced to take as a result of the continuing influence of religion into the society in which I live – something that strikes me as deeply unfair.
Very well put and a striking analogy that deserves spontaneous applauding.
*pause for applause*
I get slightly annoyed, personally, by the insistence from some groups that atheism is a belief. I don’t believe in Santa, but it’s not a “belief system” or my strong belief that Santa doesn’t exist. I just see no reason why he should exist and therefore have a non-stance against him. If suddenly a jolly fat man would come down my chimney in the midst of winter, I will reconsider my stance.
If a jolly fat man would come down your chimney, i would suggest you getting a new chimney.
….or a Taser.
I mean seriously (to paraphrase Jeff Dunham/Peanut): You let a fat guy in a dress come down your chimney because he says he has something for your kids? Seriously?
Regards & all,
Thomas L. Nielsen
Cattleprods R’ Us
Luxembourg Office
I LOVE PEANUT!!!
Same answer as I gave above: Atheists simply deny the existence of a higher power. There are different levels of atheism, but all basically fall under nontheism. Still, some atheists have belief systems such as evolution. If you follow Molloy’s eight elements of religion (which I don’t, but it adds to my point) you can certainly make a case for atheism as a religion.
Ultimately, however, you don’t need to name your beliefs. The Japanese religion of Shinto didn’t have a name until Buddhists arrived and wondered what the Japanese called their belief system. Shinto (or Shen-dao) literally means “way of the gods,” and existed for at least hundreds of years without any sort of official title. It was just “the way.” Why do we need to qualify everything with a word?
Nice thinking. I like it.
And we are superior. Yid army! (am I allowed to say that here?) :)
Glory Glory Man United
Sorry, couldn’t help it
A poetic analogy kingoflondon, very well put. Go back through old posts and it may surpise you (or may not) how often the old chestnut ‘atheism as a belief system’ rears it’s ugly head. Many intelligent and erudite responses have failed, as will yours I’m sad to say, falling as it were, on deaf ears, or stony ground to use a biblical phrase. Placing yourself in the mindset of the religiously inclined may give a clue as to why the religious will see atheism as a belief. When aproaching the subject from the point of view of someone who believes without evidence it is easy to see how they would see atheism as CHOOSING to believe that a god doesn’t exist just as they choose to believe it does. Their entire mindset being based on belief without evidence, they assume that the atheist chooses to believe that NO god exists, again without evidence. Of course, as you no doubt know, from our point of view, that is the atheistic point of view, we need evidence that something exists before we believe, and no evidence exists. We no more need to ‘believe’ there is no god than we need to ‘believe’ that santa doesn’t exist, that Russel’s teapot doesn’t exist, that there is no Invisible Pink Unicorn or, FSM help me, no Flying Spaghetti Monster, indeed, any more than any christian making the argument needs to believe that thor, mithra and the thousands of other deities that exist or have existed in the minds of man don’t in their view, exist in reality. They are unlikely I’m sure to describe their lack of belief in those circumstances as a belief system , after all to believe in a giant Norseman with a hammer would be ridiculous wouldn’t it? Of course it would, but it must take a lot of faith to believe that an old man with a long white beard that lives in the sky doesn’t exist because that’s what they believe, and it’s true, it says so in the bible!!
I’m not sure about religion’s influence forcing you into atheism, but otherwise your post is intelligent and well presented with an analogy that is clear and precise but I am sorry to say it will not make an iota of difference to the argument, the religious mind set will forever be incapable of grasping the concept, or maybe acknowledging it but ignoring it because they see it as one of the few defences they have left.
Sauce be with you
The Reverend
Newcastle United for my sins. Well it’s where I’m from so it chooses me more than I it.
By the way Mike Ashley’s a Spurs supporter please take him back!
To kingdomoflondon->
Quick question.
I quite enjoy all this intelligent and witty banter. It definitely starts my “brain juices ‘a pump’in”.
I agree with a large portion of your contribution to the board and I appreciate the points you have brought up.
Feel free to correct me, or teach me, if my grey matter has missed a point or two.
To continue with your analogy (which is fantastic by the way), your grandmother does not care for football one way or another and is therefore the equivalent of a “football atheist”, as you put it. I can understand that. The absence of any alignment because one simply just not have strong feeling for it one way or another would be considered atheist, in your analogy, correct?
Now if your grandmother were to turn around and have a strong opinion that football should not be in her house and that those in her house are idiots what would that be called?
I do not believe that there is a God. I also do not believe there isn’t a God. I feel no strong feelings that there is or isn’t a God. I am somewhere between Atheist and Agnostic. I do not expect to be proven that god exists or does not exist as is defined by Agnosticism, I simply don’t care. If god were to show himself then I am definitely going to re-define my stance. Or if he is proven to not exist perhaps. In the absence of proof (not unquestionable proof but, enough proof for me). I could simply not care. I also don’t care to try and prove that there is no God, such as in Atheism.
In conclusion I agree with the Pastafarian position which is not “hate religion!” but more do not let ORGANIZED religion control my life or affect it negatively without my consent.
My quick question is: What would I be defined as?
May a feast of beefy broth and frothy beer find you well.
@ Bolognese who sez:” My quick question is: What would I be defined as?”
I’ve always preferred the term freethinker.
An apatheist, perhaps?
I personally would like to see a “non-football team” formed on the premise of not playing. Sounds like an easy job!
THIS is a good response, just as the majority of the original letter was, atheism is not a system of belief, it is the idea that belief is not a good way to live your life, ideas and theories are good guidelines for a lifestyle becuase they are influenced by science and logical thought. Personally, I think that the attacks on pastafarians in the main article are unjust, I have yet to see a pastafarian to be as mocking as the author suggests, (I can of course sight many examples of christians mocking pastafarians but thats always a good intro for a serious discussion on the nature of belief systems. And when you come down to the basic premise of this religion: creationism is not science becuase it relies on the premise that it cannot be tested, i think you would find it hard to disagree, personally my reasons for being a pastafarian is the simplicity of the moral stance: being nice to everyone is more important that praying to god every day. The author sounds like a nice guy and I would LOVE to have a conversation with him, but some religious people (christians and others) seem to rely more on the “take no god before me” and the concept of salvation that they do on the idea of “do unto others as you would have done unto yourself”
essentially, I’m a pastafarian becuase I would rather everyone was garaunteed a great life than myself having the possiblity of a perfect afterlife, any heaven that accepts on faith above actions is no heaven of mine
HOLY SHIT (<-lol) That is a amazing. I'm going to put this on my facebook, giving you credit, of course. I am not articulate as you clearly are, so I will just say that it's PERFECT!
I live in the Arsenal football club controlled parking zone, and the club and its supporters, ably assisted by Islington Borough Council, are making my life miserable, costing me money and controlling the way I live. If there’s one thing that’s as close as you can ever get to religion, it’s football. As a Crystal Palace supporter I am ruled by a merciless and cruel god.
Personally I see the fervor that atheists whip up against religion as equivalent to religious doctrine and very much a belief system. I would argue your Grandmother is agnostic.
Tip/s Of the Day: Atheism is not mutually exclusive with agnosticism. Most atheists are also agnostic. The opposite of agnostic is gnostic. Few atheists are gnostic. Far more religious people are gnostic.
That is called false equivalency. Atheism is not based on faith, as religion is. If you want to call anything involving “fervor” a religion then the definition gets so broad that it becomes completely useless: it can mean anything including sports, technology, arts, entertainment or whatever.
Austin should get credit for his mainly well thought out letter and lack of grammatical errors. Although, if Austin would have bothered looking closer he might have found that this discussion he claims not to exist here, can be found in the forum. If he did went in to the forum and still claimed there is no discussion about religion or its place in the world, I’d say he’s irredeemable.
R’Amen,
Rrom the recess in “Religion and film” (University course)
This is the first(maybe second) intelligent hate-mailer I have ever seen. This person deserve respect though, I do not share his views. First, I am amused that some people still think that atheism is a religion, but it may be because some atheists use it as so. But no matter how one look upon it, atheism is not based on faith and is therefore not a religion.
And I see in no way that The Church of the Flying Spaghettimonster is mocking anyone. The only thing that come close is when we use the church to politically point out something or other that is completely ridiculous.
After a lot of thinking and some reading I have come to the conclusion that the only reason someone would get angry on this peace-loving community is if they have been pumped so full of dogma (either by them self or by a religious leader) that the only option they have when something question their belief is hatred.
And as it is said in the Holy Gospel:
“(…) I’ve received much more flak over the term midgets from fully grown men people than from little people themselves”
Don’t fight other’s battles as you may far too late find out, that you are the only one fighting.
I also want to applaud Austin for putting forward a well spoken reply to the FSM movement, even if I also believe that he seems to not fully see the point of Pastafarianism. I also hope he does take the time to read these responses, so he can see the wide variety of people that are here.
There are many types of faithful in many different religions, and while you may pride yourself on being one of the very many open minded members of your faith, you need to realize a very ugly fact; there are a number of people that justify campaigns of ignorance and exclusion on the basis of their expression of faith. Have you ever attempted to talk to people like the Westboro Church, attempt to show them the importance of respect? And I’m not talking about asking them to see the rationality of an agnostic or athiest “truth”, but in a fair and peaceful coexistance that keeps with your own holy texts?
Pastafarians are here as a response to the increasingly widespread use of faith to force political agendas, not as a way to somehow battle or bring down tolerant faithful of any creed. What you see as rude mocking, please take another look and see it as a call for the faithful to examine the motivations and the actions of mortal humans hiding behind a sacrosanct defense that has become tarnished by their hate. And if you are unable to examine and question these motivations within your own community because it will label you as “lacking in faith”, then I do mourn the loss of another reasonable mind.
Hmmm. So using insults and curses is “puttin it in our language”?
Well, let me put it in his.
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
— Thomas Jefferson