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Indiana Abortion Drama

Published April 7th, 2011 by Bobby Henderson

“I mean, do a group of old white ladies govern what goes on with my balls? No. They don’t. But this is what happens in America. Old white men who believe in an invisible man in the sky get to say what goes on in all women’s vaginas.”  – Ned Hepburn, Death and Taxes.

fatwhite
Old white men

Death and Taxes magazine has an enlightening article on the showdown in Indiana over abortion you might want to check out.

Some background information: Indiana republicans are attempting to pass a bill to make abortions illegal after the 20th week.  Democrats are opposed, and back and forth discussions have turned nasty – at one point Eric Turner, a republican House of Representatives member, suggested women may fake a rape in order to get an abortion.

As much as I want to stay away from political (and emotionally charged) issues, it seems that there is something more insidious happening here that needs attention.  It’s plain this is less about governing and more about pushing a conservative, religious, agenda.  More and more we’re seeing this brazen attitude where government officials are doing “God’s work” – not always explicitly declared, but not uncommon, either – and more worryingly, no longer is this seen as an extreme position by many.  A disturbing number of people don’t see anything wrong with this, they somehow think that state capitals and courtrooms are a proper venue for these ideological battles. 

Regardless of personal views on abortion, we all have an interest in keeping these discussions out of government. At a time when the economy is on the edge of collapse, when we are fighting multiple wars, when millions are unemployed or underemployed, our government is spending time arguing over personal ideology. This is precisely why religion was meant to be kept out of government.

What do Pastafarians think about the abortion issue?  I for one believe that Life begins at the Creation of the sperm, and that sperm, as potential human lives, deserve equal protection given to fetuses and grown children.  Think of the billions of sperm needlessly killed by such things as hot tubs and tight-fitting underwear.  In the future we will learn to save every sperm Created, so these potential lives can each develop into human adults as the FSM intended.  Who’s with me? 

Join me at Save-Our-Sperm.org  (a work in progress).

sos400



120 Responses to “Indiana Abortion Drama”

  1. younger says:

    If the gov’t involved, you can be sure that somewhere, some how those old fat white guys are making money off of this.

    • Assinine says:

      Absolutely true. For the most part, the only thing that the old fat white guys really care about is what they think their constituents, and more importantly, their financial backers care about. Start following the money trail, and you arrive at religion-based political action groups and lobbyists.

  2. Dr. Astronomer says:

    I am generally pro-choice (and I am female, and yes, I have a PhD in Astronomy, but no kids), but how about a compromise? After 20 weeks the woman has the kid (barring a medical issue). The child is raised in a state run facility with loving care givers and top notch education that is the best money can buy. The money comes from the docked pay of the old white men.

    • theFewtheProudtheMarinara says:

      A lot of those old white men are Tea Partyers who’ll fight you for every dime.

    • stylusmobilus says:

      Yes they certainly would, Marinara.

      Dr. Astronomer, I wish that idyll was the case, and I have to admit I don’t know about other OECD nations but in Australia, state run care is probably about the last place you would want orphaned or unwanted children to go. We have three of our nieces/nephews in our care because, aside from an abusive, neglectful drug ridden mother we did not want them to spend one iota of time in state care. This prevented us from being eligible for kincare payments, because we got them out before Child safety got to them. They will only act to remove and care for the child from an abusive parent if there is a physical risk, and that requires proof i.e the child must be harmed or interfered with before they will retrieve them. We didn’t want to wait till they were exposed to a paedophile for the second time in their life, or for another situation where the boy had to pull a knife to defend himself. And we didn’t trust in an organisation that sent a local teenage girl back to her mother within 6 hours of the woman physically beating her, because the person who rescued her was not listed as a relative, and had removed the child because CS decided not to intervene. Again, I wish that idyll existed but here, it is far from loving carers, and top notch education.

  3. chadachada123 says:

    From a scientific standpoint, there is nothing wrong with abortions up until 20-24 weeks in. Until that point, there is no semblance of consciousness, no formed nerve endings with which to feel pain, nothing to give an indication that the fetus would ever know in any sense about anything going on. It is not a person in that respect. Scientifically, therefore, there is no reason for it to be considered morally wrong prior to 20 weeks in.

    That said, kids need to wise the hell up and stop getting pregnant so that there would rarely be a need for an abortion anyway. That’s not to say I haven’t made my own mistakes or had a few preggo scares at only 19, though. Still, in the event of an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy, better to spend $200 and end it there than end up spending hundreds of thousands of both society and your own money when it still has a chance to be ended without any harm.

    We really need to hurry up and get this to the states. Then there would be next-to-no unwanted pregnancies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISUG

  4. endospores says:

    The way i see it is that they want to ban abortion because otherwise there’d be fewer hicks, rednecks and otherwise disposable human beings to recruit for the armed forces to serve as cannon fodder. His noodlyness forgive republicans had no soldiers to send to their deaths in oil driven wars.

    • Atsap Revol says:

      ENDOSPORES,

      Idiot, I spent three years as an enlisted man in the US Army. I have a Ph.D. You are a bigotted asshole.

      Atsap Revol

      • Atsap Revol says:

        ENDOSPORES,

        P.S. Thank those you call “disposable human beings” for the freedom you have to express yourself and to demean military personnel. Your freedom has been paid for by the blood of those who fought in wars that had nothing to do with oil. You know nothing of history or the military, you smug conceited shit.

        Atsap Revol

    • Michael Hunt says:

      Agreed, the anti=choicers are the ones who devalue human life. The church especially because a smaller population means fewer butts in pews and hurts their profit margin.

      • Insightful Ape says:

        Not to mention fewer children to abuse. (Maybe that that’s why some of them are against birth control?)

    • Noodlity says:

      I’m with AR on this one.

      Soldiers may not agree with your opinions, yet will fight and die for your right to express them. In return, even when you don’t agree with the policies that send them to hell and (hopefully) back, you can at least show respect for their will to go through it all.

    • Sweet_Mustache says:

      Are you serious? I serve in the Air Force to pay for my education and graduate college debt free, what’s stupid about that? Generalizing military members as “hicks, rednecks, and otherwise disposable human beings” is awful. I’m sure you wouldn’t have been taking your military for granted after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. I’m pro-choice, moderately liberal, and well educated… hardly the description you presented in your drunken ramble.

    • stylusmobilus says:

      Yeah mate, that’s not nice.

      Abortion? It’s a personal viewpoint of mine, but I believe that if you fornicate then you should take responsibility. However, not all fornication is consensual, and despite whatever and however some view the choice (and what beliefs I hold), it is just that, a choice. Like Brian and his wife said, it isn’t my choice, and wasn’t. I’m not sure if Noodlity’s point on most pregnancies ending in miscarriages is true, I would be more inclined to think it was the other way round.

      There are a number of valid reasons why a woman (or couple) would choose to abort a pregnancy. I would like to think these people have made the right choice, but it is not for me to oppose that choice nor is it for me to seek prevention of that right. If we had chosen abortion when we discussed it as a couple, I would not have a beautiful autistic boy, who I am very grateful for today. Him being autistic does not alter that, now and before.

      Please try and think a bit before you shoot off at the mouth endospore. Servicemen put their lives on the line for freedom and protection of citizens, such as yourself. And, as Atsap pointed out, they are far from lacking intelligence.

  5. Cardinal Fang says:

    Perhaps a “Save Our Sperm” demo in Indiana might be in order. A flash mob at the legislature with lots of people singing “Every Sperm Is Sacred”…

    CF

  6. Tony says:

    You don’t dive into politics much do you? Politics is religion in action. Christians use their religion as a basis for right and wrong based on the God’s teaching in the Bible. Most Republicans (conservatives rather) use this as a basis for their principles and govern accordingly. Secularism or atheism or whatever most Democrats/liberals believe is used as the basis for their convictions. You can’t really define atheist principles since they don’t have a basis for right and wrong. There is no atheist bible to guide them. Mostly Democrats just take positions opposite of the Bible.

    This makes it easy for people like you to point at conservatives and say “Look at those idiots and their Bible ruining everything!” You can only attack us because we stand for something. We have a basis for our conviction. Where is your basis drawn from?

    • Noodlity says:

      Sorry to rain on your ranting parade, but basing your principles off your bible simply means that you’ve substituted critical thinking and personal judgement for blind adherence to a book that’s two thousand years behind the times. It’s like wanting the government to base its foreign policy on WWII propaganda leaflets; only worse.

      Other than that, just like bald isn’t a hair color, so is atheism *not* a religion. It’s not the opposite of religion; not the flipside of religion; it simply isn’t playing that field altogether. Thus, the only “principle” it opposes, is the notion of a god, and anything depending on it. It’s not our fault that the entire Xian philosophy rests on the existence of the invisible sky-daddy, now, is it?

      On the other hand, atheistic philosophies such as Secular Humanism, Taoism, or even some branches of Buddhism, demonstrate that we don’t need to fear the wrath of biblical bogiemen in order to have a moral standpoint. Our basis is simple – it comes from *us*. Our own experiences and judgements, expanding and improving over time. Because of that, it is far more adaptable and stable than any overrated “holy” book.

      • Tony says:

        Technically “black” is the absence of all color and “white” is the presence of all color. But we still call them what they are. Just because you claim “atheism” is the lack of all religion still makes it a religion. The way we explain the universe and how humans got here is what people hold as their religion. You propagate it’s cause and philosophy just like everyone else with an agenda.

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Troy

          I hate to burst your bubble but the concept that people should follow some simple rules in life like, “thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not lie and love your neighbour” pre-date Christianity, Babylonians, etc.

          As for the lack of moral base you claim us Atheist’s have, this is easily debunked by pure fact, believers are twice as likely to commit then non believers (I’ve posted the stats before). So before you go about claiming the moral high ground it may be worth checking you facts because as it stands Atheists can clime the particular plot of land.

          Further reading

          http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/atheistmoral.html
          http://www.archive.org/details/crimeitscausesre00lombiala

          PS black is classed as a shade not a colour

          RAmen

          Gordon

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Sorry Tony not Troy

        • TiltedHorizon says:

          Read that statement back to yourself: “Technically “black” is the absence of all color”. This time, focus on this part: “is the absence of all color”.

          If black is a color, then how is it present when color is absent? (hint: it is not a color, not unless we are discussing crayons)

      • Noodlity says:

        Oh, my, Tony. Seems like your dictionary is of the “make up your own meanings” variety. Might wanna want your money back.

        Do you believe in Zeus, Ra, or Odin? Do you follow the traditions of ritual sacrifice, bacchanalia, or tanabata?
        If not, then you’re just as atheistic as we are, save for one god, out of thousands. Ask yourself how you feel about them, and you’ll see how we feel about yours.

        • Duke Airanda Tension says:

          @TiltedHorizon, Yes, please only give Tony crayons, if you give him a sharp pencil he may hurt himself, or someone else.

          Duke Airanda Tension

          Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.”- Author Unknown”

    • Atsap Revol says:

      TONY,

      God help us from the Sarah Palins who would seek to enforce their religious paradigm on all of us secular, atheistic, agnostic, non-Christian, lost souls. I consider myself a little right of center politically, but I have no sympathy for those who would choose to inflict Christian prayer in schools, teaching of ID or creationism, and posting the Ten Commandments on every telephone pole.

      I have a basis for determining right from wrong…that which harms others is wrong. I don’t want or need an immoral book (i.e. the Bible) to teach me to stone witches and do other reprehensible things to people. Yes, you have your basis for convictions, you just haven’t read the fine print yet to see how flawed those convictions are when carried out to the letter of the instructions and examples set.

      AR

      • Tony says:

        Ah but what if we disagree on what harms others? Who then should be the arbiter of truth?

        And I don’t want to impose Christianity on others. Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not lie and love your neighbor as yourself are hardly controversial principles are they?

        It’s also funny how this forum stifles opposition. Because I disagree with the premise of the OP my comments are removed from viewing, yet in order to understand the replies I’ve received you would have to read it anyway.

        • Noodlity says:

          Well, at one point we discussed physically tracking down any opposing debaters and burning them on the stake, but it turned out it’s already been done…

          As for what harms others, I’d rather ask them personally, and try to figure out some workable arrangement, reducing the chance of misunderstandings. Seems more rational than always consulting Jewish policies from the Roman times.

        • Drained and Washed Clean says:

          I think we do disagree on what harms others. Your religion, for example, thinks that it is not harmful to tell homosexuals that they are screwed up in the head, living in sin, and that they have the capability to change. All those things are a lie and psychologically damaging. Yet you do them.

          And these “principles” you speak of existed way way way before the bible. Those are the types of laws that are required in order for any society to exist and to continue to exist. You should perhaps brush up on your history before making claims.

          And “Hidden due to low rating” is different from removing the comment. I can still click it and read your drivel to my hearts content.

        • TiltedHorizon says:

          The problem with religious ‘truth’ is that it is based on the infallible word of the bible. The problem with the infallible word of the bible is the interpretation which can vary wildly. The problem with each interpretation is that the interpreters consider it infallible. This ultimately means religious ‘truth’ is not truth but opinion protected from scrutiny by hiding as dogma.

        • Tony says:

          Could you guys define “homosexual” for me? I’m unfamiliar with that term.

        • Atsap Revol says:

          TONY,

          You cite a few of the Ten Commandments as proof of your “high level of morality.” There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament. How many of the 603 other than the Big Ten do you follow? Read someof these immoral injunctions and then come back and explain how your Bible is the backbone of morality.

          Atsap Revol

        • Ronster says:

          How about the supposed commandment that implied that slavery was OK? Do you follow that one?

          “But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you.”

          Never done any work on the sabbath, huh? How about yard work? Is that exempt? I have the feeling you pick and choose what is right just like the rest of us. And by the way, we can still view your comments.

      • Tony says:

        Hmmm….”that which harms others is wrong.” Seems ironic considering we are debating abortion. Does killing the unborn “harm” it? Or I suppose you consider those not yet born to be inferior beings without rights?

        • Noodlity says:

          Might wanna check the top of the page, see the difference between a fetus and an embryo. Taking into account the presence of brain functions, independent cardio-vascular system etc. , the medical standing on the matter is that the latter is very much a part of the mother.

          And considering the physical and mental harm that an unplanned childbirth can bring, I say we ask mommy about this one. For the time being, *her* rights take priority.

        • Keith says:

          Biologically speaking a foetus is a parasite. It takes nourishment from its host and poisons the host in return.

    • Drained and Washed Clean says:

      You don’t dive into politics much do you?
      ** Actually I dive in all the time. It’s fun :)
      Politics is religion in action.
      ** I must have missed that part of the Constitution…
      Christians use their religion as a basis for right and wrong based on the God’s teaching in the Bible.
      ** Really? So that is why it is OK to kill homosexuals for being gay? Perhaps we should also take adulterers out and stone them. Maybe your kids have talked back and disrespected you. We should stone them too. Your god’s solution every time some population didn’t agree with it was to kill it. Those are not the principals people should live by.
      Most Republicans (conservatives rather) use this as a basis for their principles and govern accordingly.
      ** Yup, it is a do as they say and not as they do type thing. It is bad for you to have an affair or take drugs but it is OK if you work in Congress.
      Secularism or atheism or whatever most Democrats/liberals believe is used as the basis for their convictions.
      ** Isn’t Nancy Pelosi a xian? I believe Harry Reid is as well… Beside the point. They don’t believe the same way you do, so they aren’t real xians are they?
      You can’t really define atheist principles since they don’t have a basis for right and wrong. There is no atheist bible to guide them.
      ** Have you looked at the prison population? If we have no basis for right and wrong, then why is our prison population significantly lower than our total population? See, atheists only make up about .2% of the prison population while claiming about 16% of the entire population. Xians, on the other hand, make up approx. 86% of the population. So whose moral code has gone astray?
      Mostly Democrats just take positions opposite of the Bible.
      ** Right, like let people who are gay live their own lives with out the government interfering, people have the right to not be a xian so they don’t make laws shoving it in our faces… Even though they should get over this nanny state regulate what I eat thing.

      This makes it easy for people like you to point at conservatives and say “Look at those idiots and their Bible ruining everything!” You can only attack us because we stand for something. We have a basis for our conviction. Where is your basis drawn from?
      ** What do you stand for other than pushing your agenda forward and attempting to get everyone to believe and think as you do? You obviously get those principles from the bible. Are you going to follow god’s plan and kill us for disagreeing now? Your basis is a mistranslated, outdated book full of contradictions and historical inaccuracies and flat out lies (not to mention all the religions it stole the mythology from). Our basis is simple. Stay out of my business and I will stay out of yours. If I am not hurting anyone then I should be allowed to do as I please. And I’m not. Perhaps you should go and speak to those in your own religion who cause hurt everyday (priests molesting children, churches protesting at soldier’s funerals, preachers burning Qu’rans, parents not taking their kids in to seek medical attention because god will heal them, xians trying to take over the government and force their religious state on the rest of the population… oh wait. That last one is you…)

      I suggest that if you would like to live in a country where 1 religion governs the body and adheres strictly to its religious code that you move to Iran. Happy travels.

      • Tony says:

        “What do you stand for other than pushing your agenda forward and attempting to get everyone to believe and think as you do?”

        See now you’re just putting words in my mouth. Please point out the comment where I wanted everyone to be a Christian and agree with me….. oh right I never said that. Nor implied it. Nor do I think in that way at all. I’m a Christian Libertarian. If you want to be an atheist, fine with me! I hope and pray that you will come to Jesus someday, but I’m not going to come to your house and witness to you. And I don’t want to make the government convert you. Go ahead believing in nothing, just don’t push your religion on me either.

        “If I am not hurting anyone then I should be allowed to do as I please.”

        See THAT is where we disagree. Abortion is hurting someone. An unborn baby. I don’t need the Bible to tell me that is evil. My niece was born 17 weeks premature – at 23 weeks into the pregnancy. A pregnancy that in Indiana could have been aborted up to the minute she was born. Now she is a healthy 4 year old girl. Is it still the mother’s choice to kill her at 22 weeks? Or does the baby have rights too?

        The role of government is to protect it’s citizens from evil. It’s unfortunate we must disagree on the definition of evil.

        • Atsap Revol says:

          TONY,

          See, you had to admit that you don’t need the Bible to tell you that some things are wrong. Chances are your opinion about abortion is established more by the dogma of your church than the Bible.

          If life is sacred, carefully read 1 Samuel 15:2-3. The life of babies is not sacred when your God decides they should be killed. I didn’t need the Bible to tell me that what the Lord commanded in the above case IS wrong. See also Joshua and Jericho for more killing of babies and women as commanded by the Lord.

          See also Exodus and God’s killing of all first-born in Egypt. He probably killed or ordered the killng of about 30 million people in the Old Testament if you add in the Great Flood in Genesis.

          Now, show me how the Bible proclaims that life is sacred and how it influences your high level of morality.

          Don’t try to weasel out with the old “God moves in many ways his wonders to perform.”

          Atsap Revol

        • Neph says:

          “If you want to be an atheist, fine with me! I hope and pray that you will come to Jesus someday,”

          Perfect example of how a weak minded person says “I’m superior and I hate you” without actually saying it. It’s pathetic.

        • Tony says:

          Ah so you’ve moved on to Ad Hominem attacks now. Well done!

        • Drained and Washed Clean says:

          I am certainly not. You are the one claiming the government is religion in action.

        • Drained and Washed Clean says:

          See now you’re just putting words in my mouth.
          **Bullshit, you just make arguments that you can’t keep up with.
          Please point out the comment where I wanted everyone to be a Christian and agree with me….. oh right I never said that. Nor implied it. Nor do I think in that way at all.
          ** “Politics is religion in action” implying that the government operates according to a religion. “Most Republicans (conservatives rather) use this as a basis for their principles and govern accordingly”. How can a government choose a religion and then the rest of the population be allowed to do as they please? And you do think that way because you are here telling me how I should live.
          I’m a Christian Libertarian. If you want to be an atheist, fine with me! I hope and pray that you will come to Jesus someday,
          ** Like saying things like that. I did come to Jesus. Then I ran away wondering what the hell I was thinking.
          but I’m not going to come to your house and witness to you.
          ** Are you here? Then you are in our house. So, I guess I should come to your church and tell them that I hope they all convert to my religion too, right?
          And I don’t want to make the government convert you.
          Go ahead believing in nothing, just don’t push your religion on me either.
          ** When it is the xians operating the government, and you think that politics is religion you do want the government to make that choice. And how are we pushing anything on you. We believe in nothing, remember?

          See THAT is where we disagree. Abortion is hurting someone. An unborn baby.
          **How can something hurt that has no nerves?
          I don’t need the Bible to tell me that is evil.
          **Ahh, so the bible isn’t the end all be all on morality? Would you make up your mind please?
          My niece was born 17 weeks premature – at 23 weeks into the pregnancy.
          **Good for her.
          A pregnancy that in Indiana could have been aborted up to the minute she was born.
          ** Well, you are the ones saying that the government is religion in action…
          Now she is a healthy 4 year old girl.
          **Good for her. At least she was born to a family that wants her and has the ability to take care of her.
          Is it still the mother’s choice to kill her at 22 weeks? Or does the baby have rights too?
          **My personal opinion is that after the first trimester abortion should not be an option unless the mother’s life is in danger. But according to that law it is still the mother’s choice. But no, the baby does not have rights. And if she was born in a country where they don’t have the kind of medical care we have here she would have died. That is not to be harsh, that is reality.
          The role of government is to protect it’s citizens from evil.
          **Well, now they are trying to tell me that salt is evil, McDonalds is evil, the car I drive is evil, soda/sugar are evil… The governments role is to keep the country safe from other countries, defend its citizens, and keep the country running, not micromanage its citizens and protect them from themselves. Laws themselves do not protect people. They are really there so when someone does hurt someone else we have a defined standard of how they should behave and a defined consequence for their actions.
          It’s unfortunate we must disagree on the definition of evil.
          **We disagree on when a lump of cells becomes cognitively aware. Don’t confuse that with understanding what evil looks like.

        • TiltedHorizon says:

          @ Tony who says: “Ah so you’ve moved on to Ad Hominem attacks now. Well done!”

          Spare us the umbrage, the tone of this ‘debate’ was set from your first post. If you recall your opening question: “You don’t dive into politics much do you?”. The question, as phrased, is rhetorical, you are already assuming your audience to be uninformed, uneducated, or just stupid. From here you immediately pass judgement on Atheists by stating we have no morals.

          What a hypocrite, you opened with Ad Hominem attacks then cry foul when used against you. Hello Pot, Kettle sez you are black. (which is a ‘color’ when use as an adjective) You really do “stand for something”, riiiiiiiiiigt.

        • Atsap Revol says:

          TONY,

          I’m waiting for your response to my questions posted on April 12. I’ll phrase my thoughts about the Bible’s “glowing examples of morality” in a simple parable: If a man or woman treated animals as cruelly as God has so often treated humans, the man or woman would be arrested.

          Here’s another example of God’s morality and mercy: Ezekiel9:5-6 “Go ye after him through the city, and smite; let not your eyes spare, neither have ye pity; slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women.”

          And you think I should draw my morality from such a book?

          Atsap Revol

        • TiltedHorizon says:

          @Atsap Revol

          Somewhere in Romans is a passage that reads: god consigns all men to disobedience so he may have mercy on them. I interpret this as god NEEDING us to be sinful so he has something to forgive. This is probably why Tony needs to believe Atheists have no morals, for if morals can exists without god then god has no purpose. (which may lead to dangerous thoughts, like ‘maybe’ he does not exist )

    • TiltedHorizon says:

      Politics is religion in action? Is that where all the mudslinging, fear mongering, self serving promises comes from? Good to know.

    • theFewtheProudtheMarinara says:

      What the hell are you doing wasting your time posting us, Tony? With that outrageously biased, uninformed, nonsensical rant you could be making serious money writing copy for Fox News.

    • theFewtheProudtheMarinara says:

      Tony, did you hear about the 12 year old girl who was lashed to death recently in Bangladesh for the crime of being raped? Yeah, the Koran is her people’s “basis of conviction”. Too bad the village isn’t a bunch of atheists, who lack the basis for “right and wrong”. They would have only punished her attacker.

      P.S. Not saying the Koran is any worse than the BuyBull. You can find plenty of horrors there, too.

      • TiltedHorizon says:

        @theFewtheProudtheMarinara

        The only problem with your example is that involves the Qur’an, which in his eyes is likely not a ‘real’ religion. It would be better to use current examples of Christianity being ‘moral’.

        Has anyone heard the story of Kathy Escobar, she a Pastor who has been serving her ministry for more than 15 years. Recently she was recently invited to attend a baccalaureate service for a school in Denver, she was invited because it would, and I quote, “inspire the kids & open up some doors that hadn’t been opened previously.” Her invite was rescinded a few weeks later after other pastors and leaders found out that a female pastor was speaking, they banded together to reject the idea. Score 1 for Christian morality.

        Did you hear the story of the Jesuit order that established Catholic missionary schools across the Northwest and Alaska. They gave 166 million to their flock this year. Too bad it was a payout to all their victims who they abused sexually, 150 children in all. Seems their Christian morality told them to hide the problem and move their pedophiles around rather than seek criminal charges. Christianity scores again!

        Did you hear about Kent Schaible? Kent was 2 years old; his parents were members of a Northeast Philadelphia church that shuns medical care. For some reason 10 days of prayer did not cure his bacterial pneumonia. Seems their Christian morality expects them to put god before their own children. +1 to Christianity.

        As is evident, Christianity is perfect and should never look inward to question their morality, clearly it is infallible.

        • Keith says:

          I would also cite the case of Anneliese Michel in 1975 in Bavaria. The whole family and “friends” denied her medical aid because they claimed that she was being martyred by demonic possession. She died in agony.

      • cadbrowser says:

        Correction; she was 14. Funny how the attacker escaped tho. Horrific. I am fighting back tears.

  7. piratesmee says:

    Tony: Since you bring it up, some of us may completely disagree with your assumption that all abortion is immoral. First, it would be interesting to see your response to Atsap Revol’s question seeking the biblical proscription against abortion. Second, let’s assume that there is something called a soul (isn’t that part of your religion?.) If there is a “soul,” presumably that is what you seek to protect by objecting to abortion. On what basis do you assume the “soul” comes into existence at conception? Just as food for thought on the “soul” issue, I recall one minister suggesting many years ago in another context that the fact few people can remember anything earlier than age two or so was god’s way of protecting us from the pain of frequent miscarriages and the high incidence of child mortality. So why not assume the “soul” comes into existence as consciousness of one’s self occurs? Third, if morality compels the belief that a fetus should never be aborted, then logically it is life just a valuable as a child or adult life — in which case it would be immoral to save a child or adult before saving a greater number of test tube fetuses. (Not so hypothetical an example as you might think — what priorities should be addressed in emergency plans for evacuation of hospitals etc?) The fact that you have a beloved relative who could have been aborted is irrelevant — every single person all of us know are here by chance, luck of union of particular sperm and egg, and have survived high odds of spontaneous natural abortion. That does not make the nonexistence of “those” who never came into being tragedies.

    • Kit says:

      Plus, if every fetus should never be aborted, then it’s okay for women with tubal pregnancies to die in agony for the sake of a fetus that can’t in any case survive?

  8. theFewtheProudtheMarinara says:

    Tony: the majority of fertilized eggs are flushed out of the woman’s body by menstruation before they can attach themselves to the uterus. Looks like your god has no problem with spontaneous abortions – why should you?

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