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I hope you pay for your actions

Published January 17th, 2011 by Bobby Henderson

Wow, what a scam you have used to set yourself up with money and Im guessing fame and all the stupid bimbos and other trappings it all brings. Just remember, since there is no god or religion there is nothing wrong with killing some low life, "educated" or not (or any other act). As an exemplar of life without a God, there is nothing keeping people from acting out against others in any capacity other than the relatively obscure chance of being caught. I personally believe in God. I like to think that I am held responsible at a higher level than what man does. I do like to think there’s more. I hope you pay for your actions sooner or later in life. I’m sure you will at some point. A Morally concerned man.

-Joseph

I’ve become conflicted about posting hate-mails. I think there are assumptions that the Church of FSM receives hundreds of hate-mails and that most of the mail from Christians is negative. Neither of those things are true. Hate-mails are not common, and the majority of Christians who email understand our purpose is not to mock them. Most Christians who I’ve talked to see problems with organized religion and the abuses and fraud that get tied up with faith and power.

But what I hear over and over is that they feel turned away by our reactions to hate mail. They feel too many of us believe they are stupid for being religious. Even if a few of us do, I hope the Church of FSM never turns into a venue for those opinions. That’s not what this is about.

For the most part I think we do a good job of turning down the volume on our most extreme voices, and I think that’s a healthy thing. Just as Christians have a few members who will be riled enough to write nasty letters to us, there will be a few of us riled enough to respond in kind. But the majority of us are reasonable and rational.

I hope we find a way to encourage more rational religious to venture over here, and that we find a way to keep them. The Church of FSM is open to all – and that includes those who believe in another God besides the Almighty FSM.
-Bobby



382 Responses to “I hope you pay for your actions”

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  1. Saintsalive says:

    Now, I am morally concerned for this Joseph figure. He refuses to accept Our Father, Son, and Holy Ravioli and therefore must accept the consequences. I suppose that if we’re right, though (which we are of course… the tides come in and the tides go out… duh!) then the consequences aren’t quite as bad as the Christian religion. I’d take a bit of stale beer and mean strippers to burning eternally in fiery pits any day. Maybe he’s just scared of his own imagination. Just remember Joseph, if there is no FSM, then there is nothing wrong with going out and killing people. So do it. And be put in jail for twenty years. Not by God, but by the federal government, and the FSM of course.

  2. Bearded Clam Admirer says:

    A higher Power? Tom Cruise?

  3. Terry D. says:

    Forgive him FSM, for he knows not what he is saying.

  4. Danimal says:

    Dear Bobby, The FSM, and everyone else,
    There seems to be this growing concern about how Pastafarians treat hate-mailers and other religious people who visit the site and how religious people, it appears to me most Christians, view us. Concerns have been posted like, “What happened to the concept of respecting others?” “An Emerging Trend?” and also the comments expressed under this piece of hate-mail to site just a few examples. It appears most of the names I recognize as frequent contributors feel like there isn’t an issue here but Bobby raised an interesting point in what he posted following Joesph’s letter. In short he is concerned that we are driving away moderate Christians who might like to join in on our community. He states,

    “I hope we find a way to encourage more rational religious to venture over here, and that we find a way to keep them. The Church of FSM is open to all – and that includes those who believe in another God besides the Almighty FSM.”

    The fear here seems to be that we are suffering from the Spotlight Fallacy. There is a concern that we believe that just because there are people like the Westboros, bombastic fundie politicians, and our own hate-mailers that all Christians must be that way. A reasonable person could draw that conclusion by quickly glancing over our site. It takes a careful study of many responses over a long time to realize that’s not the case but we can’t realistically expect everyone who visits to do that.

    Bobby also mentions the number of Christians who e-mail and find the humor in the site and appreciate what we are doing so I’m requesting this:
    I want Bobby to dedicate a section of the website to those correspondences which reflect a coming together of other religions and Pastafarians. I would hope it would be a little less tongue in cheek than the rest of the website as to ease newcomers in to the community. I doubt it will generate the number of hits that hate-mail does but it would serve as a reminder of all the religious people out there who are really on the same page as Pastafarians. Even devout Christians and devout Pastafarians can get along, I should know, I’m happily married to one.

    Please give me feed back on this idea.
    Peace,
    Danimal

    • Atsap Revol says:

      DANIMAL,

      I have some fine friends who are Christians. Also some friends who are Hindus, Jews, and Buddhists. These friends are kind, gentle, intelligent people who contribute to society and treat me with respect as I do them.

      I also have had lifelong experiences with fundamentalist Christians who are pains in my ass. They treat me as an inferior “heathen” and they try to show me the error of my ways. They love to feel superior because they believe they are in God’s grace. These are the assholes that tell me I will burn in eternal hellfire if I do not give my life over to their Christ. Then they say they will pray for me.

      I have no patience with these fundies in the real world. I will have no patience with them here. They deserve no respect or kindness. If one acts respectfully or kindly to them, they are only encouraged to persist more strongly with their helfire and damnation sermons.

      The people you call moderate Christians will not be driven away with our flaming of fundie idiots who come here spouting venom. In fact decent Christians will join us as we revile the likes of Fred Phelps, Peter Popoff, and other abusive nitwits.

      I have noticed, Danimal, that you often jump in with a gallon or two of napalm after your patience has been exhausted. Don’t get softhearted on us.

      Atsap Revol, Cranky Old Fart

      • Danimal says:

        AR,
        I considered defining the role of the COF Brigade as vital to Pastafarians but I figured it went without saying ;)

        What I’m trying to say is that if there are all these reasonable religious people who are being turned away by our flaming then I’d like to hear from them. Plus it would be nice to have some positive feedback from non-pastafarians about our religion instead of just hate-mail. If these reasonable religious people fail to materialize then I’m happy to keep flaming fundies.

        Yours Truly
        Good Ol’ Danimal

        • Uncommoner says:

          I would like to point out that there may be more “love-mail” than you think. Just because they’re not posted here, doesn’t mean that Bobby doesn’t receive emails, because surely there’ll be announcements for it, to ready the community for such a welcome.

    • Elsa says:

      Atsap Revol, you say that treating the hate-mailers with respect will only encourage them to “persist more strongly with their helfire and damnation sermons” but when we respond with anger we work against ourselves by proving them right. They call us disrespectful of their religion and when you call them assholes and tell them you have no patience for them you show that you don’t respect their religion. If you think that treating them with contempt will solve anything you are sorely mistaken. I know this from my own experience with fundamentalist Christians. If you attack them they will defend themselves. If you take a more Rogerian stance progress can be made.

      Danimal, I think that dedicating part of our site to our friends is an excellent idea. With a forum like that we can take the focus off hate and lead it to something productive. When I discovered the site about two years ago the first thing I noticed was the hate-mail. At first I was amused by it, probably the reason I continued to visit the site. I was proud of us defending ourselves from the people who felt it was their responsibility to bring us to God, whether we wanted them to or not. But over the past few months I realized that we aren’t really making arguments, just ranting to ourselves because we scared off the most of the opposition. I think that if we take the initiative to welcome newcomers, people of all beliefs and ideologies, then we can create something better than what we already have. Have you ever heard the adage “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?”

      I would also like to suggest that in addition to the letters from our friends section we create a forum where we invite the members our opposition to debate with us formally. That way they can defend themselves and their views and we can “practice” our arguments on people who know how respond without all of the hate.

      • Noodlist says:

        “people with all beliefs and ideologies”? Why would people protest against something they belive in? And why would we want them to? I think people are losing sight of what pastafarianism actually is; a satire of belifs with no root in evidence. What’s the point if people don’t see that the Christian God is just as ridiculous as a floating ball of pasta? (No disrespect to His Noodliness)

        R’amen

        • Uncommoner says:

          I feel, as I’m sure many others do, that there is a deeper meaning for formulating something as awe-inspiring as the FSM, and that you’re oblivious to it. I don’t think the Creator would be so inclined to want to be closed-minded as you say. There is a base vision for the site, and surely it is not about being disrespectful, unfriendly, or illogical.

    • Jameswaldo says:

      I’m all for “coming together!” It’s so much more exciting than when one of us comes first and the others get all distracted and have to come later or maybe not at all. But please don’t let us Pastafarians forget that “those who believe in another god besides the Almighty FSM” are just plain wrong! Arrrr! Aren’t they?
      Or can you be right and ethical and still believe in an illusion?
      Nope. Nonsense. We know his noodly goodness is the best!
      Especially with lotsa good cheap red wine in the sauce!
      Peace, Ramen, local microbrewed Beer,
      Jameswaldo

  5. Insightful Ape says:

    I have not agreed with Atsap on everything in the past, I have to say on this occasion I am in agreement 100%. While our trolls are by no means representative of all believers, there is absolutely no question that they are not a small, isolated fringe either. To many people, the very fact that we can make fun of their dogmas and get away with it is an unforgivable offense. They’d like nothing better then bringing back the stake and getting rid of the establishment clause. The other thing many people don’t seem to realize is that the more moderate (formerly known as “mainstream”) denominations are the ones consistently losing ground in favor of the more radical ones. If the very basis of religion is guilt and fear as some have hypothesized, we really can’t expect any better for some time to come.
    Respect is not a right. Respect is earned. I have absolutely no respect for those who deny well established facts in favor of an agenda, such as the young earth creationists or holocaust deniers.
    I tend to think of myself as brutally honest.
    May our Lord and Savior the holy pasta bless you all.

  6. Noodlist says:

    While I agree that there is no need to use insulting language and stoop to the same level as the hate-mailers, I think people should be careful when talking about “respect” that must be shown for religions. Elsa put it perfectly: you can show the people respect and respond to them with dignity without giving credit to religions which have no basis in evidence or probability and are often immoral and unjust. Giving too much “respect” and deference to religions, and the fear of offending them, is what led to a woman in Germany being denied an early divorce from a husband who had been beating her throughout their marriage because she was Moroccan, and violence was her husband’s “right” according to his religion.
    There is no need to cause offence for no reason, but let’s not forget that the point of the satire is that mainstrean religions deserve no more respect than a Flying Spaghetti Monster, or an Invisible Pink Unicorn, or a Celestial Teapot, or the Tooth Fairy etc. Stay strong and don’t buckle under the pressure from the “offence” brigade.

    R’amen

  7. Noodlity says:

    I’ve noticed that responses to hate-mail (and concerned criticism) generally match the tone of the letters they address, and often are much more civil. Actual arguments are discussed, while trolls are flamed to no end. It’s just that trolls tend to dominate the mailbox, while moderate theists usually don’t stick around for a well developed discussion.

    In order to demonstrate that we can, in fact, have a cultured conversation on theological matters, I’m willing to play Devil’s (or god’s) Advocate, and take the theistic side, presenting my on set of pro-ID and pro-religion arguments, and see how they will be addressed. It’s not that they can’t or won’t be debunked, of course, but I’ll try and make them more challenging than the usual fodder we get. So, without further ado:

    ID: While the Universe itself appears quite unfathomable, Chaos Theory suggests that even the most seemingly random occurences are predetermined and predictable, corresponding to its initial state. Thus, it conceivably could have been “planned” from the start, instead of relying on chaotic interactions for development. A god would only need be external to this Universe, and with sufficient knowledge of its workings, to not only create it, but display seeming omniscience as well.

    ID 2: As for the Origin of Life, Evolution and Creationism are not mutually exclusive; even Abiogenesis does not exclude the possibility of external influence. In fact, rapid development of instincts between generations, bordering on genetic memory, would suggest not only physiological, but mental influence, that could only have been external.

    Here you are for now. I have my own responses to these arguments, but I want to see yours first.

    May the Sauce be with you.

    • Danimal says:

      Ok Noodlity I’ll bite and toss out what I feel is the obvious question in response to ID 1: If you are claiming an omniscient being is external to the Universe then where/when does this being exist and if it is omniscient and complex enough to create our universe how then was this creator created?

      On ID2 are you saying that parents didn’t possess an instinctive behavior but then the generation proceeding directly did? Can you please give an example?

      • Noodlity says:

        For ID 1, if a creator being is external to this universe and existing in one of its own, our rules need not apply to it. Self-creation is impossible here, but maybe not there. If its time-like dimension provides for the existence of loops, it may very well have created itself.

        Evidence for ID 2 can be found in how geomagnetic reversal and pole-shifts affect migrational species – a generation of migratory birds during the beginning of the process may suffer severe disorientation, often straying off course. The generation born afterwards doesn’t. It somehow has accounted for geological changes that are both too rare and too irregular to leave a purely genetic imprint. So, either we have directly inheritable genetic memory (which is the theory I personally support) , or… someone’s nudging things along the way.

        • Danimal says:

          ID1: That hypothesis is very intriguing. I eagerly await an experiment that could test it.

          ID2: Birds use not only magnetic fields to navigate but also sun and star position, geographic landmarks, and maybe even scent to navigate. This seems to suggest not the hand of god guiding birds but rather that we have an incomplete understanding of animal behavior. To expand this back to your general idea of ID2 it leads me to believe that a lack of understanding of all the nuances of the complexity of life is a much more probable answer than to say a creator (which we have no hard evidence for) created and guides everything. Remember people once thought god created frogs fully formed from the mud instead of the life-cycle we now understand. Often a growth in knowledge eventually supplants the idea of “Well God did it.” Currently I am in favor of a position with evidence to back it as opposed to intelligent design. It may come to pass that as time progresses and humanity’s knowledge grows we find proof of a creator (see ID1). If evidence presents itself I’ll be more than happy to accept a creator hypothesis. If it is the God as described in the bible this does however raise the more philosophical questions of why does a perfect and loving god allow bad things to happen to good people and while we might one day prove the existence of a god I still may not worship him if even a small fraction of the acts attributed to him in the bible are true.

        • Noodlity says:

          As promsed, I’ll now give my own rebuttals to the arguments presented:

          For ID 1 – while this Universe may have been created from an external source, its necessary native environment would deny the other requirements of ‘godhood’ – for one, it’s eternal, static, omnipresent nature would render it incapable of perceiving, let alone interacting with anything finite. Intelligence, by definition, requires perception and interaction. Thus, while chances are the Universe was created and influenced by a designer force (maybe even “The Force”TM) , it simply can’t be considered “intelligent” in any relevant way. So, no ID.

          On ID 2… well, yours is better than what I’d have proposed.

          * * *

          So there you have it, folks. A nice, polite debate, in which arguments were presented, discussed, and refuted, showing that we can be civil, when we are addressed in kind.

        • Danimal says:

          If I can deviate away from the ennui of perfect civility for a moment, I might also point out that at no point does either of us come close to proving the FSM didn’t create the universe. I also don’t think that it coincidence that your definition used “the existence of loops”. These loops you describe wouldn’t bear any resemblance to pasta would they? Maybe you were nudged along by a noodly appendage.
          Danimal
          P.S. If the preceding post offended you, you’re a lost cause.

        • Noodlity says:

          Well, since there were no profanities, holier-than-thou sermonizing, or threats to cut off my appendages, I’d say I’m good.

          Mind you, I’d never go against our Lord and Monster, in neither word nor action. My arguments, flawed as they were, aimed to show that claims of ID may not be as outlandish as they’re often presented. It’s strict adherence to religious dogma that ruins them. And since Pastafarians aren’t big on that, it’s easier for us to explain the nature of our Noodly Creator.

    • Insightful Ape says:

      ID: the chaos theory does not make that statement. What chaos theory is about is that there are so many variables, and a slight fluctuation of any of them can so dramatically change the outcome, that the outcome remains entirely unpredictable. That should be obvious by the very name of the theory. Nothing can be further removed from the handwork of an all powerful Mr Knowitall. And besides, supposing eveything is predetermined, doesn’t that make prayer futile? The very fact that religion relies so heavily on prayer miracles shows they are not worshipping a god acting through the chaos theory. Prayer outcome is not supposed to be chaotic.
      ID2: Human and animal behavior is to a great extent genetic. For instance, sex hormones are synthesized by enzymes encoded by genes. The exact relationship between genes and all human behavior is not known yet, but in many cases such as alcoholism and schizophrenia, it is a commonly known fact that it exists. Unless the creationists are telling us the their god handcrafted schizophrenia, I see no reason why human and animal behavior is not, to the extent that it is shared between generations, result of random mutations followed by natural selection.
      PS When was the last time you saw a troll bringing up such questions? Even the more level headed trolls like the Maronite one from last summer wouldn’t do that.

      • Noodlity says:

        Since I’ve already conceded both points, I’ll just add a corollary to ID 1 – first, a Mr. Knowitall would know all the variables, now, wouldn’t he? And predetermination is a major theme in religious movements such as Calvinism. The “Free Will” debate is fairly recent.

        My entire point was that trolls *don’t* bring up such questions, so the only valid response is to flame them to oblivion, blowing of some steam in the process. However, when we do get a reasonable argument, we’re actually nice and decent in addressing it. Simple as that.

        • Insightful Ape says:

          I think religions like Calvinism that talk about predetermination have an unresolvable contradiction, because they negate the whole point of prayer and good deeds. Apart from that, you are right-I actually cannot exclude that kind of Mr Knowitall. (Just like I can’t exclude the FSM). But then he wouldn’t be a christian-islamic god, he would be a deistic god.
          And I think it is pretty useful to point out that trolls don’t come here for intellectual debates. They come to insult us, and they shouldn’t be suprised if the same is dished out back to them.

        • Noodlity says:

          Insightful Ape says:
          “And I think it is pretty useful to point out that trolls don’t come here for intellectual debates. They come to insult us, and they shouldn’t be suprised if the same is dished out back to them.”

          Yup, that sums it up.

        • Atsap Revol says:

          Well, yep, and that includes demeaning trolls and their nonsense by means of humor, reason, and profanity. If you wouldn’t put up with these turkeys in real life, why put up with them here?

          AR

        • Jameswaldo says:

          Whoa, Noodlity, not so fast!
          Flaming doesn’t bring the torched to oblivion, it just toasts them a bit. If done carefully, it can cause a delicious caramelization, or a more chewy al dente. Take care not to mix the moist “blowing of steam” with the dry “flame” in your cooking metaphors. Each can help create a delicious meal, but a reckless combination can cause soggy noodles or nasty burnt flavors.
          Rejoicing in the Pirate Tradition will of course require lots of fuckin obscenity, and only those who truly love the sacred edible monster will understand the equally delicious joy of profanity. Shit, mon, what’s a pasta for if not the Best Damned Fare Available?
          So flame on.
          Or steam it gently (steam’s much more dangerous), but be sure to
          Enjoy the Flavor
          as you’re touched by its noodly goodness.

    • Uncommoner says:

      is this rhetorical(just between the two of you), or is it open to inerjection?
      (for ID)

      • Danimal says:

        As long as you’re civil I see no reason why you can’t come in the sand box and play.

  8. tekHedd says:

    “The Church of FSM is open to all – and that includes those who believe in another God besides the Almighty FSM.”

    So… I guess this means the FSM is polytheistic?

    And of course this “accept other gods” claim directly contradicts my reading of the revealed word of FSM which clearly shows that we must convert or kill all nonbelievers… possibly I’m misunderstanding it? In fact, the bible states quite clearly that conversion is really not high priority, which doesn’t bode well for nonbelievers. Possibly I am getting my sources confused–I’m reading several different religion’s holy books at the same time here…

    • Brian Fritzen says:

      I do feel that it is our duty, nay, our Manifest Destiny, to remind Mr. Morality (and others like him) that if they don’t sin, then Jesus died for nothing. ;-p

      • puppygoogoo says:

        Brian,

        Thanks for that. it will be useful in my next questioning to Jebus lovers.

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