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Door propaganda

Published July 6th, 2010 by Bobby Henderson

fsm_03

Our neighbor was hanging up a maria and jesus-icon in the hallway. We couldn’t let it hang unanswered.

Keep up the great work of spreading the words of The Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Regards from Chillnest :)

-Djinn



159 Responses to “Door propaganda”

  1. ohaiguys says:

    fellas and pals
    seeing as your making some very true points that would be difficult to adress in this sarcastic tone, i hope you dont mind if i break character from here. Gordon I think it was fair to be pointed out that all the points you made against Christianity were in fact restricted to the Catholic denomination. i will be the first to say that much Catholic doctrine is unbiblical, such as the establishment of the word of the pope being infallible when he is human and by no stretch of the imagintion free of sin, no human is free of sin not even the most devout Christian and i saw your response as targeted towards acts of the Catholic church rather than christianity as a whole and i think i was justified in doing so. i totally agree with critisism of various churches refusal to ordain women as this is a rather unprogressive doctrine and i suppose i will have to take this in my stride and with you hope that this doctrine is changed in the coming years and i am happy to see a growing consensus to do so in my community at least.
    I do however see it as unfair that Christianity is so often picketed for the sex abuse by individual clergymen. im not trying to shirk the churches responsibility for this, the contrary the fact tha the Catholic church (dammit Catholics get it so wrong sometimes, they really make the rest of us look bad) does not allow members of the clergy to marry is aagain unbiblical as it is Gods will for us to find a wife (and yes members of the Anglican clergy are allowed to marry in most variations) and i believe thaat it is the narrow and conservative lifestyle that the Catholic clergy commit themselves to that distorts their minds into commiting such horrible acts. im sure you can see a trend of the doctrine that causes most of these abominations in the church are in fact mostly unbiblical and i would much rather be challenged on genuine fallacies in the actual scripture of Christianity than the unacceptable result of straying from the correct path.
    In my thirteen years of schooling life i never witnessed a christian doctrine being forced on any non christian pupil. i currently attend a Catholic school and of course their are the daily midday prayers and the odd compulsory mass, but this is to be expected form a a school run by the Catholic church and there is no pressure on atheist students (who actually make up most of the school body) but simply an expression of faith which would be unethical too deny and foolish to not be expected when entering a catholic school. i can say this with personal conviction as i myself am not catholic and i have never been made uncomfortable or discriminated against for my belief. sure not all schools would be as open as mine, but how can you argue the christian churches disrespect for peoples beliefs on a post beginning with an image openly critising Chillnest’s neighbours beliefs?
    i know i referenced the Old Testament myself, and this will probably sound like a cheap evasion of the topic but what you need to realise is that the fundamental sacred text for Christianity is the New Testament. the Old Testament is a collection of Jewish laws that were prophesied to be revolutonised and fullfilled by the messiah. many of these laws are backwards and from a time that is not our own written by and for a people who were constantly on the defensive. the Old Testament is included in the Bible as a history to illustrate how it was fulfilled in the Gospels. The Gosples and the letters of Paul teach Christians to spread the word of Christ to all nations as a message of love and humility and this is a tradition that is carried out today by foundations such as Caritas, the Salvation Army and the and St Vincent De Paul, all of whose activities are actually not specific to christians and often focus on predominantly non-Christian countries in Africa and various nations in Asia.
    Yes the act of homosexuality is a sin because it uses the body in way God did not intend for it to be used. however if Chrisitians were to hate everyone who commited sin who would there be left to love? i admit there are many people in my faith who need to learn this however just because people get that wrong does not mean the actual core beliefs of Christianity are terrible as you make them out to be.
    also, ARIK’s statements are nothing short of discriminatory and intolerant and just because he lives in a country where those beliefs are not the norm does not mean he should be commended on them.
    and please dont say that atheists usually know scripture better than Christians. i commend you on your mostly well researched and well chosen argument, but to say that a person who is not a christian knows more about the faith than someone who is not is simply absurd. your belifs are clearly not without grounds and it is refreshing to discuss the topic with someone who actually knows what the are talking about, however my original comment was defending Chillnest neighbours, not trying to start a philosophical debate im sorry that you did not appreciate my tone and i suppose this is understandable but if we start this discussion it can and will go on forever in circles so i am prepared to agree to disagree once you have made any rebuttals you deem necessary from my above response.

    however Drained Washed and clean, pull your head out of your ass man. Chillnest made an overt mockery of the christian faith and when i defended it you acted as though i was out of line in doing so. why are you allowed to defend your beliefs and i am not? who were Chillnest’s neighbours hurting by putting an icon above their door? you say we are allowed to express our beliefs so why should they the be mocked for doing so? do not say Chillnest was merley expressing his belief when he himslef identifies it as his “answer” to his neighbours and admits he is waiting for a reply. sure hes not banging on theyre door, but he may as well be. and i am sure that if i put up signs all over my church that said “Pastafarianism is stupid” you would have something to say about that and you would be right in doing so so dont tell me im out of line for giving my opinion on this site as though its bad sport to tell you something you do not want to hear. and you really cant say “Where did I say Pastafarianism is not fair game?” because if you really considered it to be fair game then why are you challenging my critisism, its just hypocrtitical and self righteous. yes, no one made a personal attack on me, but i saw my faith being challenged and you cannot say i am out of line for defending it, dont you dare call me intolerant and then say i believe in a “invisible zombie sky daddy” in the same breath. i dont see how you could accuse my church of being being oddensive when the fundamental purpose of pastafarianism is a satire of my religion. im fine with people of your organisation having your own opinion but dont act as though nothing said in pastafarianism could not be deemed offensive.

    and if any of you say that my picking up a more respectful tone towards Gordon now that he is making valid points is me backing off from an argument then you really dont deserve a computer with an internet connection. anyone with a valid point to make deserves such respect and until his recent comment i did not see any such opinions that desrved such dignity.
    regards
    the member of a church whose first and foremost laws you may be surprised to learn are ones of humility and love

    • Drained and Washed Clean says:

      however Drained Washed and clean, pull your head out of your ass man. Chillnest made an overt mockery of the christian faith
      – No he is expressing his opinion which he is allowed to do.

      and when i defended it you acted as though i was out of line in doing so. why are you allowed to defend your beliefs and i am not?
      – My question is why is he not allowed to make his own display (which you did not really answer other than to say it was offensive which is not a reason for him to not be allowed to make such a display)? If you are saying that anyone who displays a symbol contrary to religion is offensive, then everyone in the world who is not Christian offends you. You are not defending your beliefs. You are saying that others should not have the right to display things that “offend” Christianity.

      who were Chillnest’s neighbours hurting by putting an icon above their door? you say we are allowed to express our beliefs so why should they the be mocked for doing so?
      – Who was Chillnest hurting by putting an icon above his/her door? I never said you were not allowed to express your beliefs. What I said was he/she has just as much of a right. So is any symbol that does not line up with Christianity a mockery? And even if you think it is, it doesn’t matter. You do not have the right to not be offended, and everyone has the right to express their own beliefs. A display of ones beliefs IS NOT mockery. It is a statement of fact.

      do not say Chillnest was merley expressing his belief when he himslef identifies it as his “answer” to his neighbours and admits he is waiting for a reply. sure hes not banging on theyre door, but he may as well be.
      – Christianity permeates society like the plague in my opinion. It attempts to squash anything that is not in line with its beliefs. Atheists here are certainly not voted into office, and some people say we should not be allowed to vote or be citizens. But the point being again, he is sharing that sentiment here, in his/her “church”. His neighbors are unaware that he wants an answer because he is not banging on their door. So there is no “he may as well be” because he is not. You cannot judge something on what could be happening. It must be judged on what is happening.

      and i am sure that if i put up signs all over my church that said “Pastafarianism is stupid” you would have something to say about that and you would be right in doing so so dont tell me im out of line for giving my opinion on this site as though its bad sport to tell you something you do not want to hear.
      – I disagree with church in general and find religion to be a detriment to society. So it doesn’t matter what you do or do not post in your church, I still have something to say about it. And I still don’t go into your church and say so. I don’t say it to people I see on the street with a Jesus sticker on their car, or with a cross around their neck, or a Star of David, or any other religious symbol. However, you are coming here. It is not in defense of your religion, it is because YOU are offended.

      and you really cant say “Where did I say Pastafarianism is not fair game?” because if you really considered it to be fair game then why are you challenging my critisism, its just hypocrtitical and self righteous.
      – I am not challenging your criticism, I am challenging your reasoning behind criticizing. If the situation was reversed, and an atheist put up some sort of symbol and then a Christian did what Chillnest did, what would your reaction be then? Would you just to the defense of the atheist with all other circumstances being the same?

      yes, no one made a personal attack on me, but i saw my faith being challenged and you cannot say i am out of line for defending it,
      – Someone challenging your faith is one who is debating you and trying to change your mind. This is not an attack on your faith. It is someone expressing their thoughts. So, there is nothing for you to defend. You are looking for a fight.

      dont you dare call me intolerant and then say i believe in a “invisible zombie sky daddy” in the same breath.
      – That isn’t intolerance. That is my name for your god. Those are my beliefs. It is invisible because it has never been seen, the definition of a zombie is “dead body that has been brought back to life by a supernatural force”, it supposedly lives in the sky, and is often referred to as “father” in the bible. None of that statement lacks truth.

      i dont see how you could accuse my church of being being oddensive when the fundamental purpose of pastafarianism is a satire of my religion.
      – No, that is not true. The fundamental purpose of Pastafarianism is to prevent religion disguised as pseudo-science from being taught as fact in public schools if you would have read the open letter and about page. Some of us here do not like religion (like me), and we share those beliefs openly on this site because we are among like-minded people. Which we are perfectly within our rights to do. I can also accuse your church of being offensive in many ways. All Christians seem to think they have this fundamental responsibility to take over and make everything Christian. Government, the schools, etc. That is offensive.

      im fine with people of your organisation having your own opinion but dont act as though nothing said in pastafarianism could not be deemed offensive.
      – You find the supposed satire OF your religion offensive. Which is not the purpose of our website. If you find our prevention of teaching ID in schools offensive, that is another story.

      and if any of you say that my picking up a more respectful tone towards Gordon now that he is making valid points is me backing off from an argument then you really dont deserve a computer with an internet connection.
      – Now you are putting words in everyone’s mouth. Has anyone said anything? No, but you just have to get that in there because? And att what point have any of us started being demeaning? That is really ridiculous. Shall we act with a bit more maturity now?

      anyone with a valid point to make deserves such respect and until his recent comment i did not see any such opinions that desrved such dignity.
      – So, we must display respect for your beliefs, comments, and religious displays at all times, but you don’t actually have to show any respect until you think that our opinions and responses deserve such respect? I find that a little hypocritical.

    • Gordon_UK says:

      Ohaiguys

      Only the child abuse was based on the RCC the rest was based on the CofE which is Anglican. Though your reasoning behind why they may of done what they did it is not only wrong but dangerous. It’s the RCC lack of ability to deal with this type of behaviour that attracted these people to the RCC so until they admit they fucked up and deal with it children will continue to be at risk.

      Glad we agreed on the subject of women but I’m worried about your view on gays. Now playing devils advocate (lol) god created everything and everything has a reason therefore there is a reason for gays, so was god wrong in doing so or are you wrong in your understanding of them? And don’t used the ‘lifestyle choice’ argument as I have friends who are gay and one was telling me how much he had hated himself for have ‘gay thoughts’ when he was younger and was in denial for years before coming to terms with who he was.

      With regards to your school, now if there where two schools in your area and parents pushed their children to that school I would agreed with you, but if it’s the only school in the area it becomes a different matter. With no choice or options then these kids are having dogma forced on them. At the moment I’m trying to get my daughter in to a school out side of our area as the local school is a CofE school where they are force-feed Anglican doctrine and who pays for this? that’s right the state with my taxes!

      Now on to Chillnest or more interestingly his neighbour, what was his motive in placing the icon on the outside of his dorm and why is Chillnest not allowed to copy him? Maybe his neighbor was trying to get a reaction from him? One thing that is clear from Chillnest other post is that he bore him no ill will.

      And with ARIK I agree his post was quite aggressive and blunt but I try to look at the overall picture and took in to account where he was from and why he may of posted in that manor.

      The reason you may be getting some negative feedback is you rose tinted view on your religion and attempting to defend what is quite simply undefendable, a lot of us have seen the nasty side of religion which you may not of seen or being on the ‘inside’ are shield from.

      RAmen

      Gordon

    • Drained and Washed Clean says:

      Oh, and I am most definitely NOT a man. But thanks for assuming my gender. And my head is obviously not up my ass because I recognize that everyone has rights and not just the Christian folk.

      And please forgive my other grammatical errors. At is spelled with only 1 t. And jump… not just… I totally thought I edited too… Blame the husband :) He wanted to go to the gym ASAP.

      • Drained and Washed Clean says:

        All my other stuff is awaiting moderation… Can I reply to this?

        • Drained and Washed Clean says:

          Try again…

          For some reason my comment is awaiting moderation…? But, I think this is really simple.

          First, if you are going to quote me do it accurately. You do NOT have the right to NOT be offended. Meaning even though religious symbols are offensive to me, I do not approach every person on the street I see wearing a cross or driving a car with an “I Love Jesus” sticker on it. I leave it alone because they are allowed to display their beliefs.

          Second, you didn’t answer my question. Reverse the situation completely. On a Christian website a post appears saying “This is my neighbor” and they have the atheist or Pastafarian symbol/poster up. Then they say “My answer” and they have a picture of their proudly displayed Jesus fish. Then they say “I wonder what their response will be”. What do you do?

          Last, it has been shown that secular countries have a lower crime rate, atheists in the prison system in the US make up less than 1% of the population while Christians represent approx. 84%. And god or no god, the consequences here on earth are the ones that keep humanity in line. So no. Removing religion from the country will do nothing of the sort.

          http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece (secular countries lower crime)
          http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5
          http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm (prison populations)
          http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,840236,00.html (police on strike)

        • Drained and Washed Clean says:

          Second, you didn’t answer my question. Reverse the situation completely. On a Christian website a post appears saying “This is my neighbor” and they have the atheist or Pastafarian symbol/poster up. Then they say “My answer” and they have a picture of their proudly displayed Jesus fish. Then they say “I wonder what their response will be”. What do you do?

        • ohaiguys says:

          i think i better question is what would YOU think? would you not be offended if you saw a post like that?
          but seeing as you asked, i guees as the intnetion was not directed at me i wouldnt be offended as such but i would be concerned for the lack of dignity and humility the person was portraying theyre views with and that they were using putting Gods name to an offence of someone elses views.

        • Drained and Washed Clean says:

          Why is that the better question? I have repeatedly stated my opinion on this issue. Freedom of speech and everyone has the right to display their views even though I find all religious symbols offensive. Not to mention that I don’t troll on Christian websites because what they do on their sites doesn’t concern me. I am fully aware that people are assholes and do things to piss others off. Why am I going to bother with a childish intent?

        • ohaiguys says:

          what happens on Christian websites might not concern you but when i see an image on a sight putting down my religion i think that should concern me quite a bit. if you care so little about Christians expressing their opinion then why did react the way you did to my first post? i find it hard to believe you would react differently to the way i did if you say and image such as the one you described especially considering you would have no reason not to. i still dont get why you would find any religious symbol offensive regardless of context, that just goes to show you would rather have am opinion that conflicts than no opinion at all.

        • Drained and Washed Clean says:

          what happens on Christian websites might not concern you but when i see an image on a sight putting down my religion i think that should concern me quite a bit.
          – It shouldn’t concern you because there are many people who are going to disagree with you about a great many things and they are allowed to. We don’t need to hear that you are offended, nor do we care. We are doing this in our space and in our time. You can do all your Christian things and your space and your time. If you are so offended, go away.
          if you care so little about Christians expressing their opinion then why did react the way you did to my first post?
          – You know, this whole repeating myself thing is getting a little old. I am defending freedom of expression. And someone needs to let you know WE NOT HAVE TO CONSIDER IF YOU WILL BE OFFENDED. Again, we don’t care if you are offended. We don’t go and bother you, so we would appreciate the same courtesy.
          i find it hard to believe you would react differently to the way i did if you say and image such as the one you described especially considering you would have no reason not to.
          – So, I tell you my reaction and you say I am lying? Because you just think everyone is like you? So why ask at all if you think that I will just be dishonest? I see these symbols daily, and my reaction is the same daily. Why bother? They have their opinion, I have mine, nothing is going to change.
          i still dont get why you would find any religious symbol offensive regardless of context, that just goes to show you would rather have am opinion that conflicts than no opinion at all.
          – So because I find religious symbols offensive I could not possibly have a valid opinion? This just goes to show that you are close minded and cannot see past your own nose. Just because you find my opinion offensive does not mean it is not valid, or that my purpose is to be combative. Of course you wouldn’t get it. Being so close minded you cannot fathom someone thinking religion is not a good thing. You think religion is rainbows, butterflies, and bunnies and something not to be questioned or crossed. To me it is oppression, bigotry, and brainwashing. That is what those symbols represent, so of course I find them offensive. Religion is the reason for the Dark Ages, religion is the reason people are not receiving proper medical treatment because of “moral” questions and not allowing science to progress, religion is the reason people hate each other, religion is the reason for war, murder, and any other atrocity you can think of. Not to mention the fact that anyone who doesn’t agree is automatically a horrible human being with no morality. Which is, again, bullshit.

      • Drained and Washed Clean says:

        First, if you are going to quote me do it accurately. You do NOT have the right to NOT be offended. Meaning even though religious symbols are offensive to me, I do not approach every person on the street I see wearing a cross or driving a car with an “I Love Jesus” sticker on it. I leave it alone because they are allowed to display their beliefs.

      • Drained and Washed Clean says:

        Last, it has been shown that secular countries have a lower crime rate, atheists in the prison system in the US make up less than 1% of the population while Christians represent approx. 84%. And god or no god, the consequences here on earth are the ones that keep humanity in line. So no. Removing religion from the country will do nothing of the sort.

  2. ohaiguys says:

    Gordon
    something that needs to be pointed out is that the clergy who commited these acts were not acting on behalf of the church in doing so. it doesnt really make sense to point the finger at the idea of christianity when what they are doing goes against everything christianity stands for. however i guess i have to agree that the inadequicies (spelling?) in dealing with it are unacceptable but pope Benedict has in fact acknowledge he fucked up and apologised for many cases including the several clergymen who were defrocked i mentioned earlier.
    to say that God created everything and hence must have created homosexuality isnt quite right. Christians belive that having created the Earth God gave humans wardenship over the earth and no one can say weve done too bang up a job of it, so to say God has a reason for gays is like saying God has a reason for child molestation or murder (not to put gays on the same level as people who do these things just illustrating the point). i too have some gay friends but i belive that to shun them for their life choices because of my beliefs would simply be giving my religion a bad name. God loves everyone, including gays and i admit there are many in my faith who do not realise this.i guess you need to believe in God to accept the point that homosexuality is not in his plan, i can understand why you would be opposed to this doctrine but i hope you realise that gays are (or perhaps are supposed to be is a better term) allowed into the faith and offerd salvation just as readily as people who skip church on sundays or swear at their parents.
    for the record, there actually quite a few schools in my area including many non religion specific public schools. its a fair point to make about the inconvenience of only a religious school being convenient for an unreligious family, but in a state with adequate public schooling this should never be the case. thats too bad about youre daughter but take it from me if the anglican school is anything like my school her belifs should be respected properly, if not you are totally within your rights to give them a proper and public chewing out for being dickheads. i dont know about your country but in mine religious schools are funded mostly by student fees and the church and little to no government money is granted. i imagine this would be especially the case at an angilican school as they are usually fully private. although i guess this could be different in your case.
    i highly doubt Chillnests neighbours were trying to provoke him. it is clearly a modest expression of faith and no offence but to say there was any malevolent purpose behind it is clutching at straws a bit. sure hes ALLOWED to copy the neighbour, no more than neo-nazis are allowed to display swastikas and propaganda in their home. would it be okay to put a swastika above a doorway next to one with a star of david (again, im not comparing FSM to the nazis and i know that hypothetical was a bit extreme but i hope you see the point im illustrating)? just because hes allowed to do it doesnt mean its not offensive and in poor taste.
    ARIKs nation of origin is no excuse for such intolerant views. if someone grew up in nazi germany (sorry for using this example so much) would it be okay to be anti-semitist? at the risk of sounding unempathetic, if he REALLY hates it so much there he should just leave, no ones stopping him (for religious reasons anyway).
    and you really cant call my view on my religion “rose tinted” when ive alrready acknowledged many flaws in the church, i am not so ignorant as to acknowledge that there is indeed a nasty side to religion as it is run and made up of humn beings and anything that is run and made up of human beings is not perfect.

    Drained Washed and Cleaned
    I really dont get where your coming from now. you can express your opinion all you want but dont expect to get an argument back if it conflicts so much with other peoples. please explain why i do not have the right to be offended, i was under the assumption that you are big on personal rights and i think something that openly challenges my faith is a legitimate cause to be offended. Chillnest was deliberately challenging his neighbours beliefs and admits he was waiting for an answer, i am giving that answer on their behalf. and yes i am offended, AS a christian. i dont know what the problem with that is you are so clearly offended AS a pastafarian.
    let me tell you that the way i found that site was because my atheist friend wanted my opinion on the open letter. i have no shame in admitting that when i read it i found it funny as hell and agreed entirely. ID should not be taught in science classes because it is not scientific. theres nothing wrong wih lobbying a cause like that and when i looked at the rest of the site i was disappointed to see that much of Pastafarianism has in fact become a satire of religion, point in case being the above image. yeah you can satire religion just as much as you can satire anything but to not expect a reaction is just childish. and dont act as though having a name as condescending as “zombie sky daddy” for my god does not warrant offence. youre clearly trying to insult my faith and any insult warrants defence, Chillnests neighbours icon was not an insult and his reaction to it was uncalled for.
    and i did not put any words in peoples mouths i was trying to rebut that argument before anyone made it. that is why i used the word “if”. as a christian words have been put in my mouth on many occasions so dont play innocent in this repect. please tell me WHY i would respect the views the views portrayed on this post before mine. there is no reason for me to. you have not respected my view thus far so i dont see why you would expect respect in return, THATS hypocritical. and im sorry for assuming your gender and for all the sleep you lost for crying over the insult im sure that caused. if religion were to stop dead in a day i can say for a fact the world would become a fucked up place. many people would have far more contorted ethics and morals were it not for faith so dont call it a detriment to society. i dont see why you think im judging the situation on what COULD be happening when what IS happening is obviously a mockery of Chillnests neighbours for their beliefs. in case you havent noticed, im the underdog in this argument so i dont understand your problem with me displaying my opinion on a public site where your perspective is the dominant one. if I went and “whined in my own church” where would that get anyone? things like this should be discussed. its pretty narrow minded to assume that an atheist didnt get voted JUST because theyre atheist. would you vote for them JUST because theyre atheist? im not saying atheists would have bad policies, in fact my country, Australia if you want to check up on this, has an atheist Prime Minister and th leader of the opposition is often criticised for his conservative Catholic views even though the majority of Australia is in fact Catholic. i dont know about you, but i think atheists are given a fair voice and FSMs prominence is proof of this.
    yours truly
    a guy who is allowed to have an opinion no more and no less as Chillnest

    • Gordon_UK says:

      Ohaiguys

      Right to start with the UN Human Rights Council don’t think the pope has done enough the below quote is from the UN on the 16th March 2010

      “The Vatican is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC), but has contravened several of its articles, and is more than 10 years behind in its reporting. It has habitually compounded the abuse and facilitated multiple reoffending by moving offenders around and shielding them from prosecuting authorities by imposing the “pontifical secret”. Major investigations in the USA and Ireland have been deliberately and cynically obstructed by the Church at all levels without censure from above. This includes the Vatican’s representative in Ireland, suggesting that he acted under instruction from the highest level in the Church. All this has led to abusers being allowed to continue offending and to escape justice, while their victims despair – some even committing suicide.”

      and

      “The claim by the representative of the Holy See that they “were putting their house in order” is not borne out by the facts. [In Ireland, the Papal authorities attempted to obstruct the Murphy Inquiry into the cover up of child abuse by the Dublin diocese, and has refused to cooperate with an inquiry by the Irish Foreign Affairs Committee, refusing to respond to two letters from the Committee to the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza, inviting him to appear before it.]“

      On to your believe that being gay is sinful, how can homosexuality be man made? If you believe god created everything then you have to accept he had to of created homosexuality. Therefore you are condemning god creation based on scripture written by man.

      In the UK most schools most religious schools are state funded, and even ‘non’ religious have a legal requirement to provide daily collective worship that are be of a ‘wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character’. Now correct me if I’m wrong but I sure Oz has something similar called scripture class.

      I’ll skip over the Nazi reference (another Christian organisation) you said of Chillnests putting up the FSM on his door “just because hes allowed to do it doesnt mean its not offensive and in poor taste”. Now why does that not work both ways? Why are atheists not allowed to be offended by Christian (and all the hundreds of religions) statements of their believes and they are OK to be offended by ours?

      Your PM (Julia Gillard) is under-fire for being an atheist by your church, with Reverend Mark Durie saying things like “If you believe we are all just lumps of dirt, the result of a series of evolutionary accidents, of course this affects how you value the dying, the unborn, the disabled, the environment, human sexuality and marriage.” which was quite derogatory and there where worse.

      RAmen

      Gordon

      PS don’t worry about spelling as you can tell It’s not my strong point

      • Drained and Washed Clean says:

        For some reason my comment is awaiting moderation…? But, I think this is really simple.

        First, if you are going to quote me do it accurately. You do NOT have the right to NOT be offended. Meaning even though religious symbols are offensive to me, I do not approach every person on the street I see wearing a cross or driving a car with an “I Love Jesus” sticker on it. I leave it alone because they are allowed to display their beliefs.

        Second, you didn’t answer my question. Reverse the situation completely. On a Christian website a post appears saying “This is my neighbor” and they have the atheist or Pastafarian symbol/poster up. Then they say “My answer” and they have a picture of their proudly displayed Jesus fish. Then they say “I wonder what their response will be”. What do you do?

        Last, it has been shown that secular countries have a lower crime rate, atheists in the prison system in the US make up less than 1% of the population while Christians represent approx. 84%. And god or no god, the consequences here on earth are the ones that keep humanity in line. So no. Removing religion from the country will do nothing of the sort.

        http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece (secular countries lower crime)
        http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5
        http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm (prison populations)
        http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,840236,00.html (police on strike)

    • Drained and Washed Clean says:

      Obviously you have no idea where I am coming from because you didn’t actually read what I wrote. You couldn’t even quote me correctly. You do NOT have the right to NOT be offended.

      Religious symbols in general offend me. Now should everyone in the country stop wearing them and take them off their cars because they offend me? Or perhaps I should go to every Christian website and approach everyone on the street and tell them how offensive it is to wear those symbols of hate and discrimination? I mean, you seem to think if something offends you that you have to share with us…

      Let me put it to you this way. Reverse the situation completely. On a Christian website a post appears saying “This is my neighbor” and they have the atheist or Pastafarian symbol/poster up. Then they say “My answer” and they have a picture of their proudly displayed Jesus fish. Then they say “I wonder what their response will be”. What is your reaction? Are you jumping to the atheists defense and saying the same thing to that person as you are saying here?

      And as to your comment about if religion is gone we will sink into chaos? Religion causes chaos. Here are articles stating that secular nations have a lower crime rate:
      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece
      http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

      And the percentage of atheists in prison is less than 1% compared to Christians who represent almost 84%.
      http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

      And god or no god; as soon as the police are on strike, all hell breaks loose:
      http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,840236,00.html

      You really have 2 options for his one. Either you need god in order to be a moral person so you aren’t really a good person anyway and I don’t want to associate with you, or you don’t need god to be moral and therefore religion is a unnecessary.

      Here are the facts. You cannot even prove that the Jesus in the bible actually walked this earth. You have no idea who wrote the 19 books of the NT that have been forged (according to bible scholar Bart Ehrman). I am sure you have no idea why there are multiple moral contradictions in the bible. Basically what this boils down to is you are a pious, self-righteous, judgmental person who thinks everyone else is wrong and you are right, and we should all hop in line and apologize to you because you are offended. If you expect to go through life without being offended then you have another thing coming. Truth is, none of us give a fuck.

    • Drained and Washed Clean says:

      Obviously you have no idea where I am coming from because you didn’t actually read what I wrote. You couldn’t even quote me correctly. You do NOT have the right to NOT be offended.

      Religious symbols in general offend me. Now should everyone in the country stop wearing them and take them off their cars because they offend me? Or perhaps I should go to every Christian website and approach everyone on the street and tell them how offensive it is to wear those symbols of hate and discrimination? I mean, you seem to think if something offends you that you have to share with us…

      Let me put it to you this way. Reverse the situation completely. On a Christian website a post appears saying “This is my neighbor” and they have the atheist or Pastafarian symbol/poster up. Then they say “My answer” and they have a picture of their proudly displayed Jesus fish. Then they say “I wonder what their response will be”. What is your reaction? Are you jumping to the atheists defense and saying the same thing to that person as you are saying here?

      And as to your comment about if religion is gone we will sink into chaos? Religion causes chaos. Here are articles stating that secular nations have a lower crime rate:
      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece
      http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

      And the percentage of atheists in prison is less than 1% compared to Christians who represent almost 84%.
      http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

      And god or no god; as soon as the police are on strike, all hell breaks loose:
      http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,840236,00.html

      Here are the facts. You cannot even prove that the Jesus in the bible actually walked this earth. You have no idea who wrote the 19 books of the NT that have been forged (according to bible scholar Bart Ehrman). I am sure you have no idea why there are multiple moral contradictions in the bible. Basically what this boils down to is you are a pious, self-righteous, judgmental person who thinks everyone else is wrong and you are right, and we should all hop in line and apologize to you because you are offended. If you expect to go through life without being offended then you have another thing coming.

  3. Pemma44 says:

    Dear ohaiguys,
    I’ll pray for you.
    rAmen

    • ohaiguys says:

      thanks man

  4. andrea says:

    I had an FSm and a gefilte ” fish” on my car. People do not get it-you must live among smarter people. By the way, Ohiaguys- I don’t care what people beleive as long as a) they don’t try to tell me what to believe- and unfortunately, I get Jehovah’s witnesses and fundementalist Christians trying to tell me I am – so I get pissed off- and rightly so and b) I’m sick and tired of people trying to use religion to change laws here in the US. Homophobia and trying to return women to second calss status is the province of the so-called religious people

    • ohaiguys says:

      Gefilte is a Jewish dish, i think you mean the Ichthys. Evangelism is a core principle of Christianity. I’m sorry if you find this annoying but Jehova’s witnesses see it as sharing a great gift from God. i can see how it would get annoying after a while though, i get them every now and then and they keep coming back even after ive already told them i already am a christian but i pt up with it because they are just practicing their belief and i dont have a problem with that. it is upsetting when a society that has a non-religious representation becomes catered to religious faiths. as mentioned i dont see why gay marriage should be illegal when a coupke isnt harming anyone by being married outside of a christian church. I have never seen any attempts by my religion to reduce women to second-class citizenship and as i hope you have noticed, im no homophobe. i dont hate gays and i dont think being gay should be illegal, i realise that other people are entitled to live life as they wish and you shouldnt speak as though only christians can be homophobes. im not trying to tell any of you what to belive but Alfonse is entitled to belive what he wants too.

      • Atsap Revol says:

        Yes, ohaiguys, “evangelism is a core principle of Christianity.” For many Christians, it’a a disgusting principle. How tolerant would those Jehova’s Witnesses be if I showed up on their porch every Saturday morning bringing glad tidings of a great joy: The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
        -
        I don’t care how much devoted, brain-washed idiots feel compelled to share their “great gift from God.” They should exercise respect for those of us who don’t have their mindset.
        -
        As we so often see on this site, the rabid proselytizers often proclaim their moral superiority and the certainity that they will go to heaven and we will go to hell. I’m sure this belief gives a sense of superiority to people who have achieved little else to feel good about.
        -
        I’m glad, ohaiguys, that you at least see how the missionary work “could get annoying after while,” because it sure does.

        • pinataheart says:

          Well actually, they have every right to tell us what they believe up until we tell them to get off our property, in which case they must do so.
          And they have the right to talk about God to us up until it becomes badgering and harassment, which can be very quick, true, but they do have the right to voice their opinion stupid though it may be up until they start impeding upon our rights.

        • ohaiguys says:

          i totally agree

        • ohaiguys says:

          this is what i dont get, why do so many atheists think they have it so hard? a jehovas witness shows up on your door, tell them to fuck off, be rude to them, or even smile and say your not interested, they probably wont come back. when Atheists challenge me on my beliefs, doesnt matter how i react they more often than not categorically disagree with anything i say, reuse arguments after ive rebutted them over and over and almost always end up calling me immature and/or ignorant for beliving in such things in a very mocking and condescending manner. if i was an atheist on this site and i saw a christian telling me i was going to hell and going on about how great they are i would laugh at how self righteous and petty they are, because thats what ehyre being. sorry youre so annoyed at these people practicing theyre religion, but if you want to be able to live your own faith and express your own opinion your going to have to put up with theirs because they sure as hell put up with yours having doors slammed int theyre faces all day. you cant have it both ways.

        • ohaiguys says:

          PS “i totally agree” was a response to pinataheart, the rest was directed towards Atsap Revol.

        • Atsap Revol says:

          What do you mean “they put up with yours,” Ohaiguys? I haven’t been knocking on doors and filling people’s ears with bullshit they have heard many times already. Those poor deluded Watchtower people believe that their salvation depends upon spreading the word. It’s not just atheists that grow tired of being pestered by this cult. And no, they will not cease and desist if you politely tell them that you aren’t interested or even, as you put it, “fuck off.”

        • ohaiguys says:

          no you havent been knocking on any doors, but these people go around being abused and put down over theyre religion every day yet they continue to do it because its something they believe is good, and i think thats something to be respected. We have Watchtower in Australia, but probably not as large a representation as in America and after a while of discussing scripture with them whenever they showed up i told them i needed time to study and asked if they could pass over my house in the future, and i havent seen them since. obviously your experience with watchtower is quite different but come on, if you want to express your views on how dumb religion is, views that you cant say wouldnt hurt and offend watchtower members far more than the occasional knock on the door does for you, you should show a bit more tolerance to their own views.
          and i think “cult” is a bit of a strong word for someone who proffeses a belief in an invisible flying spaggheti monster. wathctower is a valid faith, at least give it its due curtesy in that respect.

        • Atsap Revol says:

          Well, ohaiguys, your latest response proves that you are totally nuts. If I believed in a Flying Spaghetti Monster I would, as you put it, belong to a cult. But like the vast majority of Pastafarians, I don’t. This is a spoof religion, and we are open to that fact, unlike the other spoof religions* that profess to be true.
          -
          *Watchtower, LDS, Catholic, 7th Day Adventist, Baptist, Peter Popoff, Methodist, Fred Phelps, Islam, Judaism, Snake Handlers, Episcopal, etc, etc, etc.

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Ohaiguys

          At what point does a faith become ‘valid’? Is it how old it? Number of followers? Proof?

          G

        • ohaiguys says:

          Atsap revol
          thanks for ignoring all the actual points i made. you know what i meant by that comment. grow up.

          Gordon
          i think a valid belief is one that can be defended on intellectual grounds. thats not a discussion i want to start just now though because it could go on forever, lets just suffice to say i believe both our own beliefs to be valid, i hope you agree.

        • Atsap Revol says:

          So, ohaiguys, “a valid belief is one that can be defended on intellectual grounds.” The belief that anvils float on water can’t be defended on intellectial grounds. Neither can the belief that the earth is flat. Anyone who would try to defend Pastafarianism on intellectual grounds is a nutcake. Yet you told Gordon_UK that “both our beliefs are valid.” Therefore, your nutcakiness becomes more and more evident.
          -
          Why don’t you pack it in and go home. You remind me of Sam of God who plagued this site with repeated nonsense posts. You aren’t Sam of God are you? No, I didn’t think so; Sam was a better speller, but just as screwed up mentally.

        • ohaiguys says:

          yeah i was talking about that whole atheism thing. you know? his ACTUAL belief? and ill have you know i have many a time seen and anvil float on water. they are quite bouyant. for serious you guys.

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Ohaiguys

          Why would it need defending? Should it not be PROVEN on intellectual grounds?

          Gordon

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Atsap Revol, SoG was funnier then a box of badgers!

      • Atsap Revol says:

        Ohaiguys, next you will be telling us that you have seen an anvil falling up instead of down. But that’s an easy leap of faith for one who believes in a talking snake and Noah’s Ark.
        -
        Take your medications and go to bed.

        • ohaiguys says:

          dont be ridiculous Atsap, things dont fall up. you crack me up.

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Why not? Would it not depend on the location of the anvil, it’s environment, it’s relationship with up and down and the perception of up and down by the person conducting the experiment?

        • ohaiguys says:

          hey, maybe your right! I didnt think of that, looks like Atsap and i have alot to think about with this whole anvil thing.

  5. ohaiguys says:

    well my personal knowledge on the case of child sex abuse in the church has been exhausted and if the
    UN is unsatisfied then something should really be done. but i stand by the argument that the men who commited these acts were not behaving as Christians and so the fact they were commited shouldnt be used as an argument against Christianity, i am first and foremost defending my faith, not the institutionalised church which, like all institutions, has its faults and should be held accountable for them. i am in no way excusing them of their behaviour or the cover up you have provided a very convincing case for, however this should in no way detract from all the great things my church has done and you cannot deny there are many.

    Christians belive that God made man and woman and told them to be friutful and multiply. very explicit circumstances are given in the Bible under which sex is acceptable, these are within wedlock as an expression of love and for reproduction. marriage was made by god to exist between a man and a woman. just because homsexuality is possible doesnt mean God intended for it to occur, if God had his way in all things, you wouldnt be an atheist. God did make everything but things in his creation are often abused and used for a purpose other than that God intended. for the reccord i think it would be overly conservative to make gay marriage illegal and as politics govern societies that are not made up of only Christian people, governments should not be made to cater for only one faith.

    there are scripture classes in Australia. in my high school students are offered a choice between a catholic studies class and a studies of religion class. the studies of religion class (which i chose) includes components all major world religions, including a non-religion topic. m y primary school was a non-religious public school which had scripture classes every wednesday which were seperate from usual classes and every student would go and learn about their own religion in seperate classes, atheist children were allowed to go to the hall and chill for that time so nothing was being forced on them. thats the religious condition in both catholic and public schools in Australia and personally i dont see how any way in which a view was forced on anyone. for the most part the education system is quite seperate from religion in Australia except of course for religious school organisations, but there are plenty of Jewish and Islamic schools here too, not as many as Christian schools sure but id say thats representative of the Christian majority in the population.

    i was very clear that my reference to the NAzi party was purely hypothetical and i dont see why you had to go and identify it as a Christian inittiative. the Nazi party was not a Christian organisation. it was a political movement which saw much degregation to Christian practice; Hitler removed any Jewish component of the Bible from printing which includes all of the Old Testament and some of the New Testament such as the book of Matthew. the religious aspects of Nazism did often claim to be Christian, but it is nothing like the Christianity that is practiced today and even held some aspects of occultism, and the atrocities commited by the Nazi party are in no way related to the Christian church. my original problem with the display of Chillnests image was not the image itself, that would be totally hypocritical, it was the context in which it was portrayed. It was not an expression of faith but a mockery of his neighbours. i have no problem with FSM images being displayed, in fact a car on my street has that fish bumper sticker and i have never felt offended by it. ive said it before and ill say it again, his Chillnests neighbour (lets call them Alfonse) was not offending anyone, i dont see how you could be offended by a simple display of faith. it is the way Chillnests image was portrayed and its purpose of provocation that concerns me. now if Alfonse had put sign above his door that said “my neighbour is going to hell” sure, go nuts, they would deserve all retaliation in the world if the intent had been to provoke. but the intention wasnt to provoke and Chillnests image was by no means a modest expression of faith, it most certainly had the intention to provoke. like i said, hes allowed to put what he wants above his door, but im allowed to point out that this display obviously has at the very least and undercurrent of insult and intolerance. ARE you offended by Alfonses icon? i dont see any reason why you should be.

    if you dont like the flak Julia Gillard has copped for being Atheist, maybe you should check out some of the stuff said about the “mad monk” Tony Abbott’s (leader of the opposition) devout Catholicism. for the record, i far prefer Gillard to Abbott, one of the manin reasons being that i would be concerned with anyone with such a strong religious agenda being in power, even if they were Christian. Rev Duries comment is most derrogatory and insensitive and not one i agree with. atheists are just as capable of compassion and empathy as Christians. as a Christian i do not feel threatened by having an atheist in power and neither does any member of my family.
    Regards
    Ohaiguys

    • Danimal says:

      Hi ohaiguys,

      I’ve been following your comments with some interest here and if you care to engage I’d like to point out something that sparked my interest.

      First off, christianity has this wonderful defense mechanism of compartmentalization (we saw how well that worked for The Titanic) where if one aspect of the church does something horrible everyone else gets to close them off and dissociate themselves. This is commonly called the “No True Scotsman argument” I don’t think it is fair to say,

      “…i stand by the argument that the men who commited these acts were not behaving as Christians and so the fact they were commited shouldnt be used as an argument against Christianity, i am first and foremost defending my faith, not the institutionalised church…”

      These people were considered christians when they became clergy, they were considered christians when they committed these acts, they don’t stop being considered christians until they get caught. You don’t get to hold up a priest as your conduit to god but then say he all of a sudden isn’t a christian or that the church and your faith are separate when the church does something you don’t like.
      This website may have started as a clever and effective way to keep religion out of the science classroom but it has grown into, among other things, a voice speaking out against the hypocrisies of religion. This door posting is a simple, elegant, and most of all peaceful way to make that voice heard. If you are offended by the image of the FSM being hung up in opposition to mary and jesus then I’m happy because it means you are starting to scrape the tip of the iceberg that is seriously and critically looking at your faith. If your god was perfect as you claim then he would be beyond reproach and you would have no reason to take any offense at the sight of a flying spaghetti monster. I’m going to try and head off your argument right now that your god might be perfect but your faith, religion, church, etc. are not because they are man made but again that is compartmentalizing and only works on the claim that you god was not imagined by man which you can’t prove.

      Also, marriage wasn’t made by god, it existed long before anyone dreamed up your god. Your church just pirated the idea.

      Danimal

      • ohaiguys says:

        Danimal
        thats a good point, but i think you misunderstood exactly what i meant by saying “they werent acting as christians”. of course they are still christian, what i was saying that this was not the reason they commited the abuse. they were not made to commit these acts by their faith so the fact they were christians and the fact they were pedophiles were two seperate ones, its not as though there is a doctrine in Christian scripture that told them to do it so why blame the entire faith for it happening. of course the church had a responsibility to act on it and anyone who did that should and usually is unconditionially defrocked, but would it be a reasonable argument for me to bring up a list of atheist pedophiles? i hope you get what im trying to say, and i do realise that such acts would be in any way connected with the church is unacceptable and it brings me great shame to see it happening.

        i dont think offending people is the best way to get your message out, but i think i understand what youre saying, in any case i would think an open confrontation (peaceful of course) and discussion with Alfonse would be a better way of going about it rather than open satire then coming back here and showing it off to people who already share his views.
        hope you get what im saying
        Ohaiguys

        • Danimal says:

          ohhaiguys,
          OK I see the point you’re making there that bible isn’t directing them to sexually abuse children, I agree. However, I disagree that their christianity and their pedophilia are seperate. Why is it that the majority of these abuse cases come from the catholic church? I have a hunch it is because of the rules enforced on catholic priests personal lives, denying their human nature causes it to be expressed in unhealthy ways. O.J. Simpson was a football player and a criminal that doesn’t mean football forced him into a life of crime but athletes are not held up as our guides to morality, clergymen are.
          Now, you’ve made it perfectly clear that you’re not catholic and that’s fine because this isn’t a critique of you the individual but I’m taking a much larger look at religion as a whole. Clergymen are supposed to have a greater understanding of god than everyday folks, which is why when I look at christianity and see this kind of abuse it makes me stop and think, “If these are the people who understand christianity the best and this is the behavior they exhibit then there are some problems with christianity.” These priests should meet a higher standard but they are not and as representatives of their organization (which you would define as the catholic church but I would call christianity in general cause, come on, you all worship the same god) not only will I question their validity as individual guides on morality, I’ll question the organization as a whole. If I found out that my cable/internet company’s repair techs were going into peoples homes and sexually assaulting them, and the company new about it, and kept it hush hush and just moved the repair tech to a different city instead of firing them (yes some priests were defrocked but not all of them and there should be 0 tolerance for sexually abusing children) then you bet your ass I would cancel my service with that company.
          Still, people argue that these offenses were committed by humans and humans are fallible, but these humans work in god’s name, and committed some of these offenses in god’s house so your god is strangely absent in cleaning up this mess. Doesn’t that make you question your faith even a little?
          Danimal

        • ohaiguys says:

          Danimal
          i really appreciate the dignity youre treating my views with. fair call, its all the same God, so ill shelve that point for now (just remember that the actions of catholics are not representative of all christians though, its a common mistake). im glad you recognise that the cause of the abuse was the unnatural lifestyle these glergymen were forced to lead. like i mentioned earlier this lifestyle has no scriptual grounding as it is Gods will for us to find a wife or husband. it actually has concerned me very deeply in the past that people who should know so much better are commiting these acts, but to use your hypothetical, if cable guys were commiting sexual abuse, would you start thinking cable tv is evil? having said that, i see what you mean that the power of the scripture should be enough to prevent these men from doing these things, but i think this says more about the strength of their own faith rather than a cause for me to question mine. and remember, in any organisation, especially one as large as the christian church, there will without fail be some bad eggs but dont forget that these men represent a miniscule proportion of the clergy. however i agree 100% there should be no tolerance for such acts and the church needs to get its shit together in this respect, but i see this as a fault of the institutional church, not the practical faith.
          as for gods abscence in these events, i see sin and evil every day and i dont consider this as cause to doubt God, the contrary, as humans defy God he has allowed (for want of a better word) us to deal with the consequneces of that defiance, being the repurcussions that it causes.
          Ohaiguys

    • Gordon_UK says:

      Ohaiguys

      At the beginning you claimed to be standing up for Christians and not for a particular group, now it seems you have more exclusions then a mobile phone contract!

      The people who committed these crimes where Christians and their actions can be held against Christianity, you cant start saying they don’t count for X or Y.

      “Just because homosexuality is possible doesn’t mean God intended for it to occur, if God had his way in all things, you wouldn’t be an atheist” So are you saying god is fallible, is not one of the corner stones of Christian believes that god is infallible?

      With these scripture classes you don’t think that it’s sending out the message to the atheist children that they are not part of mainstream society? By leaving them in the hall to ‘chill’ seems no one gave a fuck about them!

      I was appalled by your association of an expression of my believe with the Nazis which is why I pointed out your religion’s to them, don’t forget that they also gassed Atheists along with others ho did not fit.

      Your response to the Nazi retort was quite interesting, now what if they had managed to secure Europe and brokered a stand off with Russia and the USA? Millions of people would have this new version you mentioned and would hold it as the only true word of god, the old saying history is written by the victors. Now has Christianity started out as a small cult and spread to Rome where it was adopted and spread, how can you know that the same process did not happen then? Bits droped and added as needed to ensure they met the needs to the rulers.

      Sorry but I still feel you are wrong on the door icon, it is more accepted to show a Christian sign of faith then Atheist. If you went out waring a cross no one would even batter an eyelid by ware an Atheist T shirt and see what happens. I have one that says “Atheism – the natural selection” and I get no end of dirty looks, tuts, snide comments and more overt ones like “your going to hell”, “your not fit to have children” and “Fuck off back to China this is a Christian country”. (The last one always puzzles me as I can trace my family tree in England as far back as 1068 and England was a pagan country before the Christian’s moved in)

      As for Julia Gillard she has done well for someone from Wales (joking) but why her Atheism an issue in the first place?

      RAman

      Gordon

      • ohaiguys says:

        i explained the whole exclusion thing in my response to Danimal, check it out.

        God isnt infallible but people are. when man originally disobeyed him humanities punishment was sepearation from God, the result of which was the suffering and sin we see today. we defied him and so he left us to our own devices to suffer our imperfections, however he forgave us enough to offer us the chance of redemption through repentance, so the imperfections in the world were made by man, not God.

        Gordon, i keep saying, my Nazi reference was a HYPOTHETICAL. i was not comparing your views to the nazis, i was just thinking of a similar situation where the mere display of icons could be found offensive when put next to toher images. im sorry i offended you in that way but please realise i did not intend to.
        i dont belive that the Bible could have been altered as you suggest beacuse we still have many copies of scripture from the time they were written. i could give you a theological reason about why people in my faith dont believe this could have happended (Christ guided it etc.. etc..), but im sure you dont want to hear it so ill spare you the preaching.
        thats pretty harsh that you would actually get verbal abuse for wearing a shirt, but it think the reason peope get upset about that kind of thing is because they belive so passionetly in their faith and set of beliefs regarding transendant existance, to see someone challenging those beliefs who dont have any of their own to offer is a bit upsetting. ill quote my dad here, now hes alot more conservative than i am and i hope the wording of his phrase doesnt offend you but try to look past the condescending nature of the comment. he says “we belive in so much and they (atheists) dont belive in anything. how could they think thats so much better than having a religion”. im not defending the people who look down on you in the street, they sound like pricks, but thats why they are offended.
        like i said i have no issue with Gillard being Atheist (i actually hve more of a problem with her being Welsh, shouldnt we have an Australian leading Australians? not a huge problem, just saying) but theres always going to be that conservative minority making up 10% of the people but making 90% of the noise. its not like Christians are trying to have expelled from office, sure some people wont vote for her based solely on the fact hes atheist, but thats theyre buisiness, id probably vote for her.

        as for Atheist children being allowed to chill in the hall, i see what youre saying, but what else were they going to do? seeing as theres no organised Atheist doctrine for them to be taught, that seems like the best way, the kids certainly didnt complain and no one was being opressed or forced to belive anything. i dont think thats sending any message to the kids, all religion were being put in different classes thats just what happens when you have to cater for alot of people with many different beliefs. there was teacher supervision of course, they werent just being hung out to dry. in fact, looking back i was actually picked on a fair bit for being in the Anglican class because it was smaller than all the others.
        i hope i havent said anything else that offends you
        Ohaiguys

        • ohaiguys says:

          PS just realised i made a pretty big spelling error up the top, meant to to say God IS infallible and people ARE NOT

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Ohaiguys

          Your first paragraph wow what a way to doge the question. If god is infallible and our creator we should only be able to function within the given perpetrators he predefined when he designed us. Therefore to have the ability to deify him means he is fallible.

          You also seemed to of doged the point I was making about homosexuality not being a lifestyle choice but the way your are born, so you still think that gay people need to repent for how they where born? Also why are there gay penguins? (honest I’m not taking the piss, google it as it’s been reported in Germany, New York and San Francisco)

          Another question, your saying the bible’s not be altered, so why are there so many versions on the same text? Also 1940 years ago they used English? Well there’s your first alteration as you need to remember that languages are not directly translatable, a fun example is the German for bra directly translated is breast holder. Then you have regional variations, in the UK saying you where out side looking at the fanny while having a fag would mean looking at women while smoking in the USA it means something different! Even if you could read the language it was originally written in as far as I’m aware there are no originals only copies of the originals and even if there was the oldest parts of the NT where written some 70 years after the fact so there would have been some word of mouth going on, I’m assuming you’ve played Chinese whispers?

          Also with regards to your fathers saying, I don’t believe in fairies at the bottom of my garden either so am I worse off for that?

          Now the t-shirt thing, that is only the tip of the iceberg and I can handle that as they are just random twats in the street it’s when it happens in organisations that should be blind to that, i.e. schools, hospitals or courts (you should of seen the dirty looks from the usher and the judge when I asked to affirm when being sworn in to the jury).

          “no organised Atheist doctrine” that’s because Atheist just means without theist nothing more. Just dumping the Atheist kids in the hall for lack of anything else to do with them shows that your education system does not consider our views as important. Surly it would be better to just have one religious education class covering all different religions say from the Egyptian god and pagans to the more resent ones like Christianity.

          The reason your getting so much flack for the RCC abuse thing is that your original post tried to portray Christians as faultless in that ‘apology’. Though I have to disagree with you on the cause, create a situation where someone can get placed in authority and trust along with access to children and then add a culture of cover up and bam pedos are there. Now the blame does not stop with the original perpetrator but everyone that allowed situation in the first place and allowed it to continue but as it’s a religious origination it seems not to be governed by the same rules as everyone else i.e. a cable/satellite company!

          RAmen

          Gordon

        • ohaiguys says:

          Gordon
          i didnt avoid the question, that was an answer wasnt it? God gave us frreedom of mind and the ability to act as individuals. he is not a tyrant and he did not create us as mindless robots. if he had made as all as perfect beings, what purpose would life serve as a place of trial?
          i dont think of homosexuality as something someone is born with. if a christian feels that they cannot be heterosexual and they feel this threatens their faith then they will simply have too choose between their sexuality and their faith. sure you can be a practicing christian and a practicing homosexual, but its a setup that isnt ideal and if they truly wanted to devote their lives fully to god they would choose. as for gay penguins, thats pretty interesting i think there are gay orcas as well but i dont see what it was to do with human experiance. animals kill eachother too, i dont see this as proof against God, if God made humans fallible why would the same not be true for penguins? especially considering they were not made in his image.
          the letters of Paul were written around the 50sAD, twenty years after Jesus’ ministry by a man whom jesus revealed himself to. some of the Gospels are probably first hand accounts from Jesus’ disciples, so you cant make an argument about the authourity and validity for the sources of the New Testament. the oldest copy of the Bible is the Codex Sinaiticus and its from like 300AD and im fairly sure if you translated that youd get something pretty similar to whats on the Chrisitans bookshelf. as for what could be lost in translation, i dont think many vital points could be lost and i have even heard quite reguarly someone teaching scripture discuss how translation has affected what is on the page but i dont imagine it would be a very big deal at all.
          no your not worse off for not beliving in faries because that would be stupid and a belief without grounds. Christianity and religion is not these things. however i dont agree entirely with my fathers saying, you should be allowed to express any view as long as its not hurting anyone, so i dont want to go to far defending it so just forget i mentioned it.
          i dont see why you think Atheists have it so hard in the modern world. it is becoming more and more the norm to be an atheist or agnostic, only the more conservative religous have a problem with it. like i said, attacking someone for their life choices using your faith as grounds (which i see Chillnest’s actions as doing) only makes your religion look bad. if you feel your being discriminated against for your faith then you have every right to stand up for yourself against anyone who does so and remind them of the commandment to do unto others.
          first you complain about religion being taught at school, now your saying we should bring in religions no one even believes in any more? judging from the views you have expressed so far id say if this pan-religion class was instituted you would be opposed to it anyway seeing as you have such convictions against religion being taught in schools. the purpose of scripture class is to develop the children as practitioners of theyre faith. no one is being discriminatedagainst, nothing is being forced on the atheist children, i thought that was the way you liked it. they werent jus being dumped in the hall carelessly, if you choose to see it that way thats your problem.
          i can see how the view that my church is perfect could have been extracted from my original post, but since then ive made it pretty clear that i dont consider my church to be perfect, only my God. like ive said, it wasnt their faith that made them do these things it was the unnatural and unbiblical lifestyle they lead, there are no grounds to blame God or Christian doctrine for these acts and this would only serve to draw attention from the men who did it.
          ohaiguys

        • Atsap Revol says:

          Oooooooooooo, ohaiguys, there you go again. Most Pastafarians would not object to comparative religion being taught as an elective in public schools (the ones we taxpayers support in America). The thing we object to is religion being taught as a science in biology or natural history classes (i.e. Intelligent Design or Creationism).
          -
          Your lines of thought are more than loose, they are disjointed.

        • ohaiguys says:

          hey now Atsap, i thought we were pals. i figure seeing as youre all evidently so opposed to having religious views forced on atheists, that setup didnt sound ideal. come on man. youre starting to hurt my feelings. do you REALLY want to hurt my feelings Atsap old buddy?

        • theFewtheProudtheMarinara says:

          From observing the gay people I know, I’ve always felt gay people were born gay – along with the gay dogs, penguins, deer, etc. And some science is pointing that way.
          http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826613.900-gay-brains-are-hardwired-at-birth.html

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Ohaiguys

          The old ‘free will’ argument often pulled out of the bag when actions don’t meet doctrine. OK lets try it another way, god is infallible therefore any universe he would create would be flawless then why would we need leap years?

          “what purpose would life serve as a place of trial” What? So your saying that life is some sort of Quality Control? What for, access to heaven to be with god? So why not make us perfect in the first place and cut out the crap?

          “I don’t think of homosexuality as something someone is born with” why don’t you try asking one gay friends you mentioned what made them choose gay rather then straight? Be careful as that may offend them!

          “oldest copy of the Bible is the Codex Sinaiticus” First point is to make is the word ‘copy’. The Codex Sinaiticus was written in the mid 4th century by four different scribes in Greek. So not only 350 years after the birth of Jesus but in a different language, not only that it was the first time all of the all of the ‘accepted’ Christian texts where placed in the one document (no way to validate all the individual sections), so plenty of room for error there. Also during the production of the Codex each of the scribes corrected their own work and one of them corrected and rewrote parts by another. These corrections contain many significant alterations and, together with further extensive corrections undertaken probably in the seventh century. Starting to look even more flawed.

          Also if Christianity has not been altered why did they move Christmas to December to coincide with the pagan festival of Yule which pre-dates it?

          There is a big difference between increasing ones knowledge of other peoples religions and customs to teaching a region as if it’s proven fact!

          RAmen
          Gordon

        • ohaiguys says:

          Gordon
          God didnt invent calenders, i dont blame God for leap years. that an interesting case to make, ive never heard the existence of leap years as proof against God but i dont really see how it is.
          as for life as a place of trial, yeah, thats exactly what im saying. most religions hold this belief. the universe was perfect originally until man used the intelligence God gave us against him and now we need his permission to the next world he will create. i think moral perfection and human intelligence are not things that can exist in harmony. God could have given us intelligence, or he could have made us morally perfect but the only being that can have both is God himself.
          my gay friends arent christian and like ive said i have no problems with them being gay (or atheist for that matter) and they have no problems with me being christian. i just dont think people are born gay, it might feel that way to some homosexuals if they decided very early on but having said that my belief about not being born gay isnt one my faith taught me, its just my peronal opinion, im sure there are christians who would disagree with me and atheists who would agree.
          actually much of the New Testament was originally written in Greek (Acts of the Apostles and im pretty sure most of Pauls letters) so the Codex might be more accurate than you think. like i said before, part of my faith is that i dont believe the word of God could be altered beyond accurate interpretation but thats my belief so i guess its just a thing you need to be a Christian to believe.
          Christmas wasnt ‘moved’ to December. nobody knows the actual date of Jesus’ birth Christianity just adopted a festival that was already celebrated anyway to celebrate their faith. no Christian would claim otherwise and i dont see this fact as a threat against my faith.
          i speak of my religion as fact because thats what i believe it to be, just as you believe your beliefs are fact. so far i havent come into contact with a theory that conclusively disproves the existance of a God to me just as you havent come into contact with one that proves it to you. its got nothing to do with teaching a religion as ‘proven fact’ its just about saying what you believe to be factual as just that.
          hope you understand that.
          Ohaiguys

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Ohaiguys

          The point was that if god was infallible there would be an exact number of days in Earth orbit, i.e. 365 rather the 365.25.

          So far what I can gather from you is that you hold scripture ‘knowledge’ over fact based knowledge, personally I find that trait dangerous in a person and I hope this is something you grow out of as you see more of the world. Try the below sites I’ve added the UK ones as there seems to be more content.

          http://www.secular.org.au
          http://www.secularism.org.uk
          http://www.humanist.org.au
          http://www.humanism.org.uk

          “i just dont think people are born gay, it might feel that way to some homosexuals if they decided very early on” are you taking the piss? Are you saying as a young child someone thought one day ‘you know rather prefer my own gender’ this happening before they know about sex?

          Greek? Sorry I didn’t think Jesus was Greek or his Apostles! Come on as I said it was amended dramaticly at the time and again 300 years later when it was already 350 years after the fact.

          Change kill to murder and that means a huge difference!

          Christmas was moved from the 6th January to 25th December in about the 4th century!

          Again any believe should be based on fact or what is provable rather then what cant be disproved. It’s like me saying you can’t disprove my claim that I have a penguin tied up in the boot of my car.

          RAmen
          Gordon

        • Gordon_UK says:

          Ohaiguys

          The point was that if god was infallible there would be an exact number of days in Earth orbit, i.e. 365 rather the 365.25.

          “i just dont think people are born gay, it might feel that way to some homosexuals if they decided very early on” are you taking the P1SS? Are you saying as a young child they suddenly thought one day ‘you know I rather prefer my own gender’ this happening before they know the difference between straight and gay?

          Greek? Sorry I didn’t think Jesus was Greek or his Apostles! “the Codex might be more accurate than you think” Come on, as I said it was amended dramatically at the time (350 years after the fact) and again some 300 years later. Change kill to murder and that means a huge difference! And that doesn’t take in to account of the multitude versions. Going back to Exodus 22:20 ref (23/07/10) simple example;

          Douay-Rheims Bible
          “He that sacrificeth to gods, shall be put to death, save only to the Lord.”
          God’s word translation
          “Whoever sacrifices to any god except the LORD must be condemned and destroyed”
          King James
          “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed”

          Now the first two seem to direct it’s followers to kill non believers and the 3rd seems to say that non believers will meet their doom, big difference, which one is right.

          Christmas was moved from the 6th January to 25th December in about the 4th century as Yule was taking all the lime light.

          Again any believe should be based on fact or what is provable rather then what cant be disproved. It’s like me saying you can’t disprove my claim that I have a penguin tied up in the boot of my car.

          So far what I can gather from you is that you hold scripture ‘knowledge’ over fact based knowledge, personally I find that trait dangerous in a person and I hope this is something you grow out of as you see more of the world. Try the below sites I’ve added the UK ones as there seems to be more content.

          http://www.secular.org.au
          http://www.secularism.org.uk
          http://www.humanist.org.au
          http://www.humanism.org.uk

          RAmen
          Gordon

          PS- sorry if this posts twice for some reason the original is ‘awaiting moderation’

  6. Drained and Washed Clean says:

    Obviously you have no idea where I am coming from because you didn’t actually read what I wrote. You couldn’t even quote me correctly. You do NOT have the right to NOT be offended.

    Religious symbols in general offend me. Now should everyone in the country stop wearing them and take them off their cars because they offend me? Or perhaps I should go to every Christian website and approach everyone on the street and tell them how offensive it is to wear those symbols of hate and discrimination? I mean, you seem to think if something offends you that you have to share with us…

    Let me put it to you this way. Reverse the situation completely. On a Christian website a post appears saying “This is my neighbor” and they have the atheist or Pastafarian symbol/poster up. Then they say “My answer” and they have a picture of their proudly displayed Jesus fish. Then they say “I wonder what their response will be”. What is your reaction? Are you jumping to the atheists defense and saying the same thing to that person as you are saying here?

    And as to your comment about if religion is gone we will sink into chaos? Religion causes chaos. Here are articles stating that secular nations have a lower crime rate:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece
    http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

    And the percentage of atheists in prison is less than 1% compared to Christians who represent almost 84%.
    http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

    And god or no god; as soon as the police are on strike, all hell breaks loose:
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,840236,00.html

    You really have 2 options for his one. Either you need god in order to be a moral person so you aren’t really a good person anyway and I don’t want to associate with you, or you don’t need god to be moral and therefore religion is a unnecessary.

    Here are the facts. You cannot even prove that the Jesus in the bible actually walked this earth. You have no idea who wrote the 19 books of the NT that have been forged (according to bible scholar Bart Ehrman). I am sure you have no idea why there are multiple moral contradictions in the bible. Basically what this boils down to is you are a pious, self-righteous, judgmental person who thinks everyone else is wrong and you are right, and we should all hop in line and apologize to you because you are offended. If you expect to go through life without being offended then you have another thing coming. Truth is, none of us give a fuck.

  7. D&WC says:

    It keeps saying that my comment is awaiting moderation, so I am just posting under this name!

    Obviously you have no idea where I am coming from because you didn’t actually read what I wrote. You couldn’t even quote me correctly. You do NOT have the right to NOT be offended.

    Religious symbols in general offend me. Now should everyone in the country stop wearing them and take them off their cars because they offend me? Or perhaps I should go to every Christian website and approach everyone on the street and tell them how offensive it is to wear those symbols of hate and discrimination? I mean, you seem to think if something offends you that you have to share with us…

    Let me put it to you this way. Reverse the situation completely. On a Christian website a post appears saying “This is my neighbor” and they have the atheist or Pastafarian symbol/poster up. Then they say “My answer” and they have a picture of their proudly displayed Jesus fish. Then they say “I wonder what their response will be”. What is your reaction? Are you jumping to the atheists defense and saying the same thing to that person as you are saying here?

    And as to your comment about if religion is gone we will sink into chaos? Religion causes chaos. Here are articles stating that secular nations have a lower crime rate:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece
    http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

    And the percentage of atheists in prison is less than 1% compared to Christians who represent almost 84%.
    http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

    And god or no god; as soon as the police are on strike, all hell breaks loose:
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,840236,00.html

    You really have 2 options for his one. Either you need god in order to be a moral person so you aren’t really a good person anyway and I don’t want to associate with you, or you don’t need god to be moral and therefore religion is a unnecessary.

    Here are the facts. You cannot even prove that the Jesus in the bible actually walked this earth. You have no idea who wrote the 19 books of the NT that have been forged (according to bible scholar Bart Ehrman). I am sure you have no idea why there are multiple moral contradictions in the bible. Basically what this boils down to is you are a pious, self-righteous, judgmental person who thinks everyone else is wrong and you are right, and we should all hop in line and apologize to you because you are offended. If you expect to go through life without being offended then you have another thing coming. Truth is, none of us give a fuck.

  8. Danimal says:

    ohhaiguys,
    The reply button is gone from our original conversation so I’m starting a new one which is actually good because I want to reference points from the other threads going on here.

    First off folks like Atsap Revol and Gordon_UK are intelligent members of this online community and I’m sure upstanding members of their own physical neighborhoods. I’m basing this on the quality, thoughtfulness, and great sense of humor in their other posts so please do not adopt a patronizing tone with them. If you feel slighted by their arguments come back with your own arguments using sound logic and evidence but don’t mock them like you did with your last post to Atsap this morning.

    You’re right about the cable thing, I wouldn’t consider cable evil because of what the company did. I would consider the CEO evil if he knew these things were happening and didn’t do everything in his power to stop them. Now just to be clear here, in the analogy I’m not calling the pope the CEO, the CEO here is god, and according to christians god is all powerful so it is well within his power to stop a child from being molested by a priest but he doesn’t. This leads me to one of three conclusions:

    1. God isn’t all powerful. This is a cornerstone of christianity, and if this all important “fact” can be false then what else about christianity isn’t true.
    OR
    2. It is part of god’s grand plan to for these children to be molested. In which case I would reject this god.
    OR
    3. There is no god because what supreme being would either allow these things to happen or plan for them to happen.

    To me number three is the simplest to explain and makes the most sense. This child molesting coming to light isn’t the only thing that brings me to these three conclusions. As you said we can see evil and suffering everyday.

    You claim that god gave us free will and did not make us mindless robots. Shouldn’t god be happy when we think for ourselves? If god gave us logic wouldn’t he want us to use it instead of turning off our brains and being blindly faithful?

    Danimal

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