Ok, here’s the thing

Published October 30th, 2009 by Bobby Henderson

This was sent in response to pastafarian responses from earlier hatemail/concerned criticism post.

Ok, here’s the thing. You set up a website with a place for responses. Your website takes a clearly mocking tone toward religion in general. You gather a bunch of members who agree with you and assert your scientific superiority. All that’s fine. Indeed, I’d say its even American. The thing that disturbs me is when people begin to question the RIGHT of people to “insult us, or. . . pray for us.”

That right is recorded somewhere in some dusty piece of paper – let me think . . . where could it be –
that has worked out well for us all for quite a while.

The thing that turns me off, though, and weakens your position most, is that most of you are just mean. I wouldn’t want just to hang out with you at a bar or anywhere else, because your arguments primarily seem to consist of making fun of people. Indeed, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is pretty much one big Ad Hominem argument. It adds nothing to a discussion of the validity of faith, because it is not about faith. (The person who writes that they “believe” in Atheism I’ll give a pass to on this comment.)

Even if Katie is condescending, your responses are more so. It is the lack of love that makes me question your entire premise. Indeed, your definition of hate is awfully broad. It sounds, how shall I put it, downright religious. Even if we live in a Foucaldian world in which our choices are driven by zeitgeist and social darwinism, I personally am going to choose to reject that. I will defiantly assert that even in that world, Faith is still relevant (and if you read his last interviews, I think Michel might agree).

Even if God were not true, I think I’ll still take Katie, who clearly has concern for you (even if you think it is misguided) over you guys who are interested in intellectually crushing her. Just because you have a right to speak doesn’t mean that Katie shouldn’t, and you certainly “have no right” to expect most people who respond to like you if you are going to beat on them.

Take a real philosophical position that can be debated and we’ll talk. Claiming that principles are “generally accepted” won’t do it, and don’t even begin to bring “peer review” in to support claims of truth, because “peer review”, even at its best, isn’t about truth – it’s about methodology and rhetoric.

Otherwise, quit wasting my time.

P.S. Has anyone here actually honestly asked God whether He exists? Just curious as to whether this is an intellectually honest forum or an ideologically rigid one.

-Jeremy



201 Responses to “Ok, here’s the thing”

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  1. Rob Jameson says:

    Ooh, an invitation to partake in a philosophical discussion of religion. Thank you very much :D

    First of all, it is NOT an ad hominem attack. That means, literally, “at person”, and is something like:
    “Hitler was a vegetarian [although he wasn't]. Hitler is evil, so we shouldn’t be vegetarians”

    I believe what you meant to say was that FSM is a reducto ad absurdum [God is reduced to absurdity] argument, a straw man [presenting a false version of God] argument, or a plain fallacy. Only the first label is correct, but that does not make the argument any less invalid. Clearly if you attack FSM, you are unfamiliar with Russell’s Teapot, or the Argument for Equiprobablilty (Google it). Chronologically speaking, it goes Russell’s Teapot -> Pink Unicorn -> Flying Spaghetti Monster. All 3 are essentially are the same and are equally valid and damning criticisms of religion; any statement in regards to the existence of an ineffable, unknowable or otherwise undetectable source must rely purely on faith and faith alone. Given that, there is no way of proving that God exists any more than there is a giant celestial teapot orbiting the Sun between Mars and Venus, that the FSM does not bless all of us with his noodly appendage, *or that there exists a God*

    Which brings me onto my second point. EVEN IF belief could be taken as absolute proof that there is indeed an almighty, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent (etc etc) Creator, you have one hell of a theological conundrum on your hands:
    John believes in God, who is Christian
    Jane believes in God, who is Jewish
    Joe believes in God, who is Muslim
    Jack believes in God, who is Hindi
    How on Earth does one differentiate between equally unsubstantiable evidences as to which religion one should follow? You can’t say that your belief in God lets you know of the right one. I mean, you can, but then you are probably the most ignorant, arrogant and close-minded person in the world – how does your belief trump that of a Jew, a Muslim etc; even a Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Mormon?? It logically follows that you must either follow all of the religious texts and practices (which different people in varying numbers BELIEVE to be correct) so, for example, you can eat neither cow nor pork nor work on the Sunday or Saturday (but incest and slavery is all good, so you’ve caught a break there). Alternatively, you must concede that all holy books are contradictory, confusing and convoluted, and should thus be ignored. Ergo, you have no reasons for believing in Intelligent Design, Young Earth Theory, or even an interventionalist God (how do you know God performs miracles if the Bible can’t tell you this?)

    Finally, I may as well point out the innumerous logical inconsistencies with the Divine Attributes of God. If He is all-power, can He make a stone he cannot lift yadda yadda – that one’s been overused. On the other hand, if God can do whatever He wants, He can perform acts of pure evil.. but He can’t, because he’s perfectly Good. If God is all-knowing, He already knows what actions you are going to take, so do you REALLY have free will, and why does He bother setting up Earth as a test for Heaven/Hell if He knows how it’s all gonna play out? *Finally finally*, if He is truly everywhere, He is every atom; every proton, electron, neutron, and the vast emptinesses between all these things. This means that we have to be part of Him, as He cannot be everywhere if there is someone He isn’t because we’re there instead. So He’s giving free will… to Himself, and commits miracles and acts of evil (hurricanes etc)… to Himself. Is he a masochist or something?

    This is meant to retain a degree of humour, but the whole point is that not only is the idea of belief a fallacious argument for the existence of God, but even the conventional conception of God Himself (in Christiainity at least, not sure about others) is immeasurably flawed. I would not consider myself an Atheist through and through; philosophically I’m an Agnostic Deist (in other words, ‘can’t know anything for sure, but it seems that God created the world then buggered off’). You may consider that a belief of my own; I consider (or believe? :P) it to be the sole conclusion of months of logical, well-reasoned rationalisations.

    Enjoy reading :P

  2. Drained and Washed Clean says:

    You are awesome Mr. Jameson!

    The free will argument is one of my favorites :)

  3. Keith says:

    Normally I don’t read long postings because too many in the past have been rants or pious nothings but I enjoyed reading Rob Jameson’s level headed comments. Well done Rob.

  4. Gigglestick says:

    Hi Jez,

    The thing about the web, and blogs like this, is anyone can reply. ANYONE.

    It doesn’t mean the comments reflect the opinions of the owners of this site.

    You probably know that, and using those comments to add weight to your argument is a bit straw man itself. You feel me?

    Love,
    Gigglestick.

  5. Angus Thermopyle says:

    This whole atheism thing seems a little preachy. I’ll stick with “meh”.

  6. Meslier says:

    Does God exist or not ?

    Either way it cannot be proven.

    Religion uses FAITH to affirm that God exist. That is anything but a proof.

    The non-existence of God or of anything, for that matter, cannot be proven.

    E.g. In this message there is an Invisible Pink Unicorn usually dancing the Tango and sometimes the Jitterbug, I assure you of so and I strongly believe so. Try to prove the contrary.

    Final note. Nobody here is trying to convert anybody from other religion. That cannot be done. Neither can people from other religion convert believers in the Church of FSM. A belief is like “Liberty”, it cannot be imposed on anybody, it cannot be given to anybody, it has to be taken and assumed personally. All beliefs are the result of an mature thinking process or of a psychological conditioning usually from a very young age.

    I don’t understand how some religious people can be so upset. Were I to be religious I surely wouldn’ write those hate messages, why bother, let God take care of them. I wouldn’t bother with a site like this one either. What’s wrong with them ? Don’t they love their neighbors as per Jesus-Christ words ? even though they may think differently. Don’t they think that God can handle us poor human beings non-believers in the most radical and definitive way.

    I don’t believe in a personal God, I think he has other fish to fry, than worry about what I think of him or of the human institutions called religions. I don’t think that he is waiting for me to die so that I can adore him for the rest of eternity.

    Were I to be God, I couldn’t care less about all of us.

  7. Edd says:

    Ok i can see were most of you are coming from and the idea of worshiping your fucking lunch is a little bit retarded (no offence meant), but people have the right to belive in whatever they want.

    I mean the idea of an all powrefull person is kind of meantally retarded as well, i mean that all people that belive in any kind of superhuman thing is just a fucking ree ree. I have also been looking at all of the peoples comments saying that spegetti was not invented until whenever but humans did not evolve until whenever and there are sooooooooo many fucking religions that all belive they are right so if people want to belive that fsm is real then it is within their rights just as much as it is within our right to critisize however much we want.

    Lol you lot are all fucking retards with fucking dick on your heads go and fuck your family you fucking imbreads with fuck fucks on your fuck mother fucking perents.

    sorry i got a bit carried away there and i do not mean to offend anyone.

    love you all, oh and by the way i am an athiest.

    bye bye.

    • Drained and Washed Clean says:

      Ok i can see were most of you are coming from
      – And where is that? Because after reading your post you clearly have no idea.

      and the idea of worshiping your fucking lunch is a little bit retarded (no offence meant)
      – No offense meant? You are full of shit. You were trying to be offensive. Stop being a wimp and mean it.

      , but people have the right to belive in whatever they want.
      – Obviously you don’t really believe that either or you wouldn’t be trolling websites.

      I mean the idea of an all powrefull person is kind of meantally retarded as well,
      – Agreed

      i mean that all people that belive in any kind of superhuman thing is just a fucking ree ree.
      – I think I agree, but I don’t understand ree ree. I prefer to use actual words. And punctuation. And capital letters.

      I have also been looking at all of the peoples comments saying that spegetti was not invented until whenever but humans did not evolve until whenever
      – You didn’t read that much did you? Otherwise you would have caught the joke. Now it is just on you.

      and there are sooooooooo many fucking religions that all belive they are right
      – Correct

      so if people want to belive that fsm is real then it is within their rights just as much as it is within our right to critisize however much we want.
      – You have the right to criticize that which you understand. You obviously have no clue here.

      Lol you lot are all fucking retards with fucking dick on your heads go and fuck your family you fucking imbreads with fuck fucks on your fuck mother fucking perents.
      – Normally one who spouts off like this is just expressing the things happening in their own lives that they hate. Perhaps counseling can help you deal with these issues.

      sorry i got a bit carried away there and i do not mean to offend anyone.
      – Dude… You are a pansy. I bet you don’t have the balls to actually say anything to anyone in person. You are one who can only talk shit on the internet.

      love you all, oh and by the way i am an athiest.
      – I am calling bullshit again. First, most atheists are well educated and able to use basic English grammar and spelling. Second, they understand the meaning of the word satire. Thirdly, they have reasoning skills. But if you actually are an atheist, please stop saying that in public. You are embarrassing the rest of us.

      • Dante says:

        excellently put!

        may his noodly appendage be upon you!

  8. Calarco says:

    He wants to know if this place is Ideologically ridged.

    You know… unlike the Bible.

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