I am sorry you have been hurt by Christians. It is obvious by your website. You can deny God all you want but he will not deny you. You can hate God but he loves you. You can say all you want that there is no God, but you can’t say I don’t exist just because you have never physically seen me either.
God himself stated in the Bible that HE is Spirit, does not have a physical body. That is why HE said himself do not create any images and worship it because we have no idea what God really looks like.
I was saddened by your website. I do not know your history and why you are so bitter and angry but I hope you would at least try to ask God if He is for real, then somehow show you He really does exist. God himself stated in the Old Testament to Moses who also said he wanted to see God, if Moses was to actually see God face to face, he (Moses) would die due to God’s holiness, BUT God did pass by, covered Moses eyes, then removed his hand so Moses can at least see God’s back. Even with that Moses face glowed from seeing God’s holiness.
Christianity requires faith of the unseen. The conviction comes to the heart.
If hope you are opened enough to at least consider what I am saying. Do not stereotype Christians. We are not all the same. We are not all condemning or judgemental. We are not all closed minded.
-Soo
I am sorry you have been hurt by Christians
Published by Bobby Henderson October 31st, 2008 in Hate Mail (and concerned criticism). 228 Comments
228 Responses to “I am sorry you have been hurt by Christians”
A Christian,
Fossil records, DNA sequencing, etc. I could go on about the data collected about evolution. I don’t say fact because in science there are no facts. To this day gravity is just a ’scientific theory’, it is not and never will be a fact in the scientific community. My PhD is Molecular Genetics. I could go on forever about the data. The fact is you obviously have no understanding of even rudimentary science, the difference between an everyday ‘theory’ and a ’scientific theory’ so it would be a huge waste of my time. Faith in God is fine, I myself believe in God, but do yourself a favor and get an education. Science and God (yes even evolution) do not have to be mutually exclusive. Only those with an incredibly limited view of God thinks it has to be.
Ramen
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Soo-
Thanks for being so polite! But our mockery is directed at some of the more fanatical aspects of religion, and I hope it doesn’t seem like we’re stereotyping that everyone is like that. Even though it’s really fucking (excuse my language) annoying when people start trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy the website, though.
If Christianity requires faith in the unseen, well, I guess I don’t have enough faith to believe in that. At least in your Christian “God”. You say ‘He’ loves me, but I don’t feel very loved, because if I did, I would probably also believe that Jesus was the son of ‘God’.
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A Christian apparently has no idea of what constitutes a religion and the differences between a religion (a philosophy of life and human interaction with the world generally based on a generally unprovable and unlikely series of precepts) and science (the systematic study of physical phenomena and how they interrelate with each other and the rest of the universe). He/she/it does seem to have a very good idea of how to makae a fool of him/her/itself by trying to shout down reality, however.
RAmen
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@ Christian
God hates evil? Just once I’d like to see God obliterate evil. Why not start with Robert Mugabe. He’s evil.
The whole problem is not that he’d be called a murderer but that nothing ever happens. Never. If that is the only reason God doesn’t destroy evil then that kind of makes God look like he’s more interested in approval than doing anything. Granted it could be possible that he’s simply busy in another part of the universe and since the universe is quadrillions of light years across that might explain his absence.
I’ve found that when a Christian doesn’t understand something the first thing they run to is God. I’ve had much better luck with the library. Everything has an explanation except for the question, “Where is God?”.
That’s more than likely because God is either no here or is non-existent.
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A Christian (#94)- YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF EVOLUTION EITHER!
Scientific theories make predictions that can be proved or unproved. Darwin’s theory predicted missing links in the fossil record. This prediction has been proved, we now have a large fossil record of various homanid ancestors. So yes, we do have proof. Indeed, it was such a good theory, with so much proof presented with it was ‘proved’ almost immeadiately. To date, Christianity theory which in one form or another has been going 2000 years has yet to produce a shread of evidence.
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Dan @96, thanks.
You say, “Obviously you’re entitled to your views but relgions often use pressure tactics for these views to be enforced on others, especially children. That I cannot sit by and accept”. Isn’t it a core part of human being that we are all inclined to enthuse others about what enthuses us. I doubt if any of us never do that. Certainly many of those on this site will be also indoctrinating, to use a negative term, or teaching, or influencing, their own children and social circle. Isn’t that what the whole FSM movement is doing in one sense? I would argue, as a mum and just from common sense, that there is no such thing as bringing your children up neutrally. Even if you tell your kids it’s up to them what they believe – and of course it’s up to my kids too as it’s up to all of us – by telling your kids it doesn’t matter what you believe, you’re still teaching them a point of view (which some might term agnosticism). By telling your kids you think there’s definitely no such thing as God, you’re no less “guilty” if guilt is in fact the word at all, of influencing your children. I’ve yet to meet a Christian who tries to “enforce” their view on others and I’m not even sure how that could be done short of some chemical brain-washing drug.
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Insightful ape @ #98 thanks, too.
You say, “thanks for your civil tone(which is a rare commodity these days)…. As you have seen here not all your fellow christians are as nice as you are”. I’m glad you think I’m nice (I am lovely, lol).
I’ve been thinking about the tone on this and other websites. I can well understand why Christians come on with a rude tone, although I don’t think that’s right at all, but what this website says is very very hurtful and we don’t always rise above that hurt. Who does always rise above hurt? Of course, no one’s forcing us to read it at all (!), and taking that into account we have no right to come on here and be rude, even if we are hurt.
I think I’d like to acknowledge the obvious. Not all Christians, and I’m not referring to anyone in particular, genuinely, have quite grasped the grace angle yet. Grace not rules, I’m increasingly realising, is the key to living as a Christian, turning the other cheek, loving those who hate us etc.. I’m very ancient (42) and I didn’t have it at all when I was young but I’m starting to get there.
Many readers here don’t believe in God because of lack of evidence, as they see it. That’s a legitimate view, although I find plenty of evidence. However that can be debated. What I think is sad is when people are put off by the behaviour of some members of the Church and I have this irrational desire to apologise for it. That’s irrational because I’m no angel and haven’t been appointed as spokeswoman either! Not everyone who frequents a church is a Christian, even if they think they are, and that has to be borne in mind too.
The church is full of broken folk, not all academically brilliant, not all masters of argument. Many will be easily defeated by some of the clever commenters here. But I just want to say that being thick doesn’t make you bad, and intelligent atheists who smugly feel superior to those who are less able but are sincere in their faith and good in their behaviour and attitudes, could perhaps consider whether there is room for some grace on their side too.
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AnneDroid (#106) – I have no kids but I was married to a Christian and supported (and encouraged) her to pursue her faith (which she had come to as an adult). When/if I have a child, I’ll try to give them a well rounded view of the word. The problems I face are;
Christianity is part of the UK school system (religious assemblies etc)
Scout groups and youth groups are Christian biased.
To give a balanced upbringing I will have to take a contrary position, I will also need to teach them about different faiths. This will be perceived by many christians as the school teaching morals whilst I teach a lack of them.
I understand many of the indoctrination tactics employed by various christian groups (child baptism, Alpha courses for parent toddler groups, Sunday school) may not be apply to you as an individual, but it isn’t individual Christians I fight against. It’s the groups and denominations that practice and seek to expand these evils.
I personally don’t know your denomination; most Christians who post here do not give their denominations. It’s difficult to tailor a response without knowing your actual beliefs… So my apologies if I attack a christian practise not followed by you or your sect.
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after reading your comment i decided to give god a chance. so i gave him countless opportunities to prove that he exists. One last try. If god somehow blanks out this post i will declare faith in him. (and use capitals when referring to him)
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Sorry AnneDroid, wrong again. You can tell your children they can make up their own mind about religion when they grow up. In North Korea children are brought up to salute “Dear Leader” all the time. They don’t have to do that.
As Richard Dawkins says, if separate religious schooling for catholics and protestants ends, the centuries old divisions in Northern Ireland will go away precisely in one generation. Quoting him again-it is the labeling of children that bothers me the most. A 2 year old can be no more Christian or Muslim than conservative or liberal.
As for forcing your opinion on others-does the name James Dobson ring a bell?
The FSM movement is about keeping religion out of science classes. I am amazed you still don’t seem to be getting it.
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To Soo, the writer of this article.
If you do believe in God, and do know the Bible, then I’m suprised you say no one knows what God looks like. Read Genesis 1:27 “And God created man in his own image”
Thats all
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To A Christian post 94
Wurzel asks…
Are you blind? Are you ignorant? Do you want to beleive so bad that you just deny evidence?
To become a Scientific Theory there has to be huge amounts of empirical and repeatable evidence to back it up. Don’t confuse the true meaning of “theory” with the colloquial meaning as “just an idea”…as in any ID rubbish about “evolution is just a theory” contiually does.
There is absolutely shed loads of evidence for Evolution – finches beaks; convergency of Dolphins and Sharks; divergency of the Marsupials; formation of new “races” of Wagtail; the whole process of Artificial selection which gices us cattle and sheep and chickens and dogs etc and not forgetting everyone’s favourite the presence of intermediate fossils. Everytime some crazy ID advocate or religious zealot says “where are the transitional species?” they get discovered.
I’ve saved the best til last – I present to you MRSA – an antibiotic resistant strain of microbe that shows us natural selection within a time frame that we can witness – practically overnight the results can be collected and collated…
To defend accepted scientifc theories scientists have to supply evidence, and this is always asked for in the case of evolution by Christians. When it is suppled it is then denied, and when scientists ask the same for God(s) it is never supplied. Why is this? Please answer me Christian I am dying to know?
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On November 2nd, 2008 Christian Said in part:
“This is a typical atheist paradox. If God kills evil people you call Him a mass-murdering monster, But if He doesn’t do anything about evil and just lets it go, you complain about the evil in the world and why God allows it. God destroys evil and you call it murder, God doesn’t and you call it negligence to Creation! God can punish evil just as easily as He can grant Christians immortality. God WILL destroy evil because God HATES evil.”
By your definition, didn’t your God CREATE evil? Hey, if I were God and hated evil, I’d have fixed it so there wasn’t any. Unless of course I got bored, didn’t care about my subjects and wanted to watch them squirm for awhile :-)
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AnneDroid, the difference is we don’t consider the alternative of not agreeing burning for all eternity.
Of course, enforcing something is impossible, but we expanded the word to give one sane option and one option that’s going to hurt you alot.
Look at the westboro baptist church. Does that not say enough about christians enforcing their believes? I mean, honestly, it’s not like anyone can say they’re just expressing their opinion, no, they’re enforcing it.
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Is it just me, or (thanks for being so polite Soo)are all these starting to be the same?
It is either (in order of least to most popular hate mail)
1)Polite, disagreement with proof.
2)Impolite disagreement with proof.
3)Polite pity ( such as this one).
4)Impolite pity
5)Outright anger
6)Outright insults
3-6 of which are from people who don’t understand, because as soon as they found out it had something to do with anything against their beliefs, they quite reading, and started writing.
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Dan, good day to you. While is true darwin predicted missing links in the record and there are some so called links, you fail to realize that there would have to be BILLIONS (gap theory pending) of said links. As to the gap theory, it is very unlikely for that to be true due to the fact that we would have noticed that theory in action. As to Christianity’s proof, i think that all of God’s correct prophecies on various world events is very good proof of His existence. I once again extend a request for us to discuss this scientifically, which can only begin once you accept mine as possible. I look forward to a peaceful discussion with you Dan. May the Lord Jesus rule over God’s people forever Amen.
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#48 AnneDroid,
I know you’ve responded to other posts a few times here; nevertheless, I find your original post in this thread most interesting. A few questions for you, and please forgive me in advance if any of them are insensitive:
1. Did you know your father? Did your mother, other family members, friends, acquaintances, know your father? Since I’m guessing that the answer is overwhelmingly yes, we can conclude that there is indisputable evidence of your dad’s existence. I don’t need to have known him myself to grant that your dad did (does) in fact exist. Such evidence does not exist for your Father. Your personal belief is just that, belief. It does not constitute evidence.
2. It is true that some atheists are quite rabid in their beliefs. I tend that direction myself. However, what I think is also certain, is that should evidence come to light that can only be explained by the existence of a creative Force, a God if you will, that most, if not all, atheists would become believers in that God. Again, we lack evidence. Some of us take that to mean it is an open question, while others, like me, go further.
3. The French philosopher/mathematician Pascal wagered much as you do, saying that there was no down side to believing in God if wrong. Assume I’m a morally responsible person who just happens to be an atheist. Assume I’m wrong about atheism. Upon my death, the fact that I was a good person is to do me no good, because I refused to believe in God’s existence? That seems petty and capricious to me. If God is all-knowing and benevolent, then it seems that he would know I was good, and understanding that I had been wrong in my beliefs, but I still lived life in a morally admirable way. To deny me the reward that a similar individual who happened to believe would receive, is not an acceptable view of a compassionate Deity. So, I guess we can conclude that, if God exists, he’s kind of a jerk. Why would I want to believe in the existence of an all-powerful jerk?
I guess I would finish up by saying that I’m glad that your belief has brought you happiness, contentment, and a sense of purpose. Believe it or not, many atheists feel the same about their beliefs.
Sean
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@ AnneDroid #106
Glad to see that some people are spending the time to have an intelligent discussion here. Thank you. On that note, coming from a fairly nonreligious family my daughter was pretty much left up to her own self to decide and discover if and what religion she might choose to follow. The decision was entirely hers. She’s still undecided at 19 years of age. She dabbled in Wicca for a few years and looked into a few others but can’t seem to find anything that suits her. Next September she’s planning on studying World Religions at university. That’s just one of the courses she’ll be taking. All through her teen-age years she asked me many questions about many different religions and I did my best to answer her as honestly as I could without any bias towards any of them. Positive things can be said about most religions and most of them also have some negatives, usually from past history although some negatives still exist in them today. I think the biggest problem I have with the majority of organized religions is the lack of acceptance towards other religions. You have to admit that what with the great number of them, which one is right? Are any? They could all be mistaken. I’m here primarily because of the satire and its fun. Way back when I was going to Sunday school I asked too many questions apparently and kept getting the same answer. “The Lord moves in mysterious ways.” That didn’t wash with me. I’ve always had a very curious nature and need answers that have explanations and things that make sense to me. I’ve also had a fascination with astronomy and at a very young age had more than a clue as to the size of the universe. I found it rather unlikely that a creator of something of this magnitude could find the time to spend on just one planet with a vast population praying to him and expecting or at least hoping for a response what with the likelihood of trillions of other planets with populations trying the same thing. To think that we are the only intelligent life in the universe is frankly rather self centred and highly improbable. Just in our galaxy the number of stars far outnumbers the number of grains of sand on all our beaches and the number of galaxies is greater than the number of stars in our galaxy. The universe is big. Very big. So how could the creator, or God if you must, find the time to deal with us without ignoring anybody else?
Then we get to the number of Gods that have come down throughout history. Granted a lot of them were made by mankind to simply explain the world as best it could be for people way back when but then again how can we be absolutely sure they don’t or didn’t exist? Just something to ponder.
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How patronizing! One has to be “hurt” by Christians (or any other religion) in order to think for oneself and be touched by his noodly appendage? Typical.
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well….at least he was vaguely polite….
However, he is still trying to convert everyone, and he is still rather enthusiastic with the caps lock….so….stereotyping wins again!
pitty he didn’t like the site… i think its fantastic!
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“I’ve yet to meet a Christian who tries to “enforce” their view on others and I’m not even sure how that could be done short of some chemical brain-washing drug.” –Annedroid
Do you know that there are Christians, in my city, that sing on the street corner EVERY FRIDAY? Do you know that every day there are people handing out tracts? There is also a preacher who preaches on another street corner using a megaphone EVERY DAY. This is called pushing your religion on me and children in the street. Because of freedom of speech, thank the FSM, there is nothing that can be done to stop them.
You just haven’t met the right “Christians” yet.
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“I’ve yet to meet a Christian who tries to “enforce” their view on others and I’m not even sure how that could be done short of some chemical brain-washing drug.” WHAAT?*##!! In that case, you haven’t met many Christians. They just copy their deity – he sends people to eternal fiery torment for not believing. His followers are not allowed to do that these days, so they use mental brainwashing, scare stories and social pressure – stuff like that. I daresay some would use drugs if they could.
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So again we have “Christian”(or was it “a Chrisitan”)telling us that god exists becuase his predictions have come true.
Are you kidding me buddy? Jesus was supposed to come back during the life time of his apostles, and people are still waiting. Many of the claims of the Old Testament are verifiably false, most egregiously in Genesis.
As for the absurd claim “there should be billions of missing links”-it’s not even worth a response. You may want to consult a book on paleontology and you may learn something.
And to AnneDroid: no, I am not smug. How do you argue with someone who thinks he/she is an authority on something and doesn’t have a clue? I find it much easier to point out if you think God exists-I can say the same about His Noodliness the FSM.
May you all one day feel his touch and his love and be rewarded with beer and strippers.
Ramen
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“I’ve found that when a Christian doesn’t understand something the first thing they run to is God. I’ve had much better luck with the library.” – jeremykeys
Probably the coolest thing I’ve ever read. And remember kids, Jesus tells you to be ashamed of your genitals, so don’t look down when you go to the bathroom.
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Insightful ape at ~110 says, “Sorry AnneDroid, wrong again. You can tell your children they can make up their own mind about religion when they grow up.” Obviously. My children can make up their own mind about religion now, never mind when they grow up. But while our children are with us, ALL of us teach them something whether we like it or not. That was the point I was making. Even if you were successful as a parent – and it would be some achievement – in teaching your child a bit about every religious faith and about atheism and every other philosophy in a TOTALLY neutral way (and kids are way too smart not to know which one you favour) then you would still have taught them a position, which would be “my parents think it doesn’t matter which one I choose”. My kids have just witnessed me politely turning two Jehovah’s witnesses from the door. That was my judgement. Jehovah’s witness parents wouldn’t approve!! As parents we must teach our kids what WE think’s best for them. And that’s all any of us can do, and more that many of the prisoners I work with were blessed with. We must remember that one man’s indoctrination is another man’s wise counsel. I see no difference between my taking my kids to church and the photos on this website of the children of some FSMers in their halloween FSM fancy dress. No one has the “moral high ground” (completely the wrong phrase) on this one.
I don’t always agree with Richard Dawkins (obviously) but I do agree btw, with what you quote about “if separate religious schooling for catholics and protestants ends, the centuries old divisions in Northern Ireland will go away precisely in one generation” and add that these divisions are also present very much in the west of Scotland where I hail from. I am delighted that my kids are taught about world religions at school and am all in favour of tolerance. (One of my jobs as prison chaplain is to facilitate worship for those of other faiths).
You also say, “The FSM movement is about keeping religion out of science classes. I am amazed you still don’t seem to be getting it.”
I do get it, and I apologise. The whole religion versus science thing is such a non-issue for me I forget how big it is to other people, so I’m sorry.
I love science with a passion. In the past I have studied physics, chemistry, biology, biochemistry, anatomy and physiology. I see no conflict whatever between science and my faith. The more I learn about the Fibonacci series in nature, or the anomalous properties of H2O, or whatever, the more my faith is boosted. I know you guys see no evidence whatsoever of the existence of God in the world and are irritated in the extreme by my “blind” faith. I am prone to astonishment at “blind” atheism and see no evidence, given the general direction of the laws of entropy, to support the theory that all this amazing order came randomly by chance out of chaos. I’m not anti-evolution, by any means, and I don’t believe that God made the world recently, with fake fossils in it, as some Christians do. But I’m well aware that there are some holes in the atheistic evolution story, and my view is that that’s because of their fixation on proving it all happened randomly.
There is a basic problem for us all. Everything I say will annoy you because of your starting point, and vice versa, if I’m honest. My uncle is a professor of nuclear physics and once took me round CERN. I remember him telling me that this same division is mirrored there. Some of his colleagues see every new discovery as further proof for their atheism. He and others of his colleagues see every new discovery as further proof for their theism.
I realise coming on this site and arguing for intelligent design is not going to go down well!
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AnneDroid, we are going to disagree on a number of things, obviously. I do think it is better to let children make their own mind when they grow up. I am amazed that you say there is no difference between taking children to church and to a halloween party with FSM costumes. A halloween party is for fun, no one takes it seriously. In church people lare told the supposed “truth”. The difference could not be starker. An individual’s personality is built during childhood. Few people with a religious upbringing get to think objectively about this later in life. So I think the “position” that my parents think I should make up my mind when I grow up BETTER than the “position” that I should be thankful to Kim Jung Il for my food ration. Not just different.
There are numerous examples of beauty in the world. The point is, they are no more evidence for existence of God that Brahma, Baal, Appollo, etc. You can just fill in the blank.
Lastly, there is no such thing as “atheistic evolution”. And speciation is anything but random. Sorry but you don’t seem to understand the subject very well.
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To post 125 Annedroid
As an Atheist and as I accept the evidence of evolution I think that you have made a mistake – evolution is not random, it is cumulative. I suggest a reading of the Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins…
Wurzel
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#124 Jesus tells you what, Daniel? Where?
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@AnneDroid: I really wish I had spotted your posts earlier, alas Christian, has overshadowed your politely worded posts with is anger which is truly a shame.
I think it is possible to an extent to avoid teaching your children about a position on religion as to which is better or if none of them are good. My parents never introduced me to anything religious what-so-ever. In fact, I can remember the first time I even heard of God was when I was 5 and was staying with my Aunt and Uncle over the summer. Until that point I had no knowledge of religion and so I was unable to form an opinion. When I got back home and asked my parents about it, they said that they would answer any questions I had about the subject and showed me the section of our bookshelf containing religious texts. There was the bible, the book of Mormon, the Koran, the Torah, the buddhist teachings (I can’t remember the name of the book right now), Taoist teachings, and many others. At no time when I asked questions did they try to levy any morality to the specific ideas. It wasn’t until years later that I learned what my parents were, my dad believing in a spirituality to the universe but no god, and my mother being a christian. Personally I think they did as good a job as is possible and if it weren’t for that visit to my Aunt’s I may have not had any concept of God until much later since I can’t remember any instances where I discussed religion with my friends until high school, until that point there really wasn’t any point in discussing it. Either they assumed I was the same religion as them, or they just didn’t care.
And I do suppose it could be parents getting their kids involved in the FSM for the Halloween costumes, but it’s not necessarily the case. I was the first person in my family to learn about the FSM, and spread it to my parents (my mom thinks it’s amusing, but my dad’s all for it, even making sure that when I ordered a T-shirt, that I put an order in for one for him too), so that accounts for at least the story involving me (Halloween Missionary).
It is good to hear that you can reconcile science with your faith. Really, that’s all I’m fighting for, is for people to not let their faith make them ignore science. Believing the world is only 6000 years old, when we have evidence of ancient cities dating to 10000 years and evidence showing the earth is even older is silly, but accepting that current scientific theory is likely accurate, but still believing that it was started in motion is still silly in my mind, but I see it as a reasonable compromise.
So, I understand why the ID debate may not an issue to you, and I’d like to explain why it is to me at least if not the rest of the FSM community. ID is okay to accept. I’ve got no problem with people who think that certain properties of organisms were somehow set up by an intelligent organism, but the problem with it is, is that there is no way to test or make observations to prove or disprove the theory. I know ID is careful not to mention God, but if you use intelligent aliens, you’re just deferring the problem, because then we have to ask how did THEY evolve, and we end up at God in the end. Since God is supernatural we can’t conduct experiments about him and so it shouldn’t be considered science. That is my only objection to it being taught. I just don’t think it should be taught as science unless they can set up such an experiment. It’s fine to be taught in an elective course that students can choose to take.
I wouldn’t say the things you’re saying annoy me, in fact I appreciate it when theists are willing to discuss their beliefs with me in a nice way. It’s only when people like Christian come here and start yelling at us about how we’re going to hell that I get annoyed. Religion is a hard thing to work with, and I do think that most people are moving down the scale of how much they practice their religions, but it’s great that your study of science has helped you out and affirmed your faith. Personally I’ve had the opposite experience. As I’ve read more and more (especially Stephen Hawking’s work), although I don’t necessarily understand everything, the arguments for how the universe could have evolved are quite convincing to me. Again, probably a difference of interpretation resulting from different starting points just like your uncle and his colleagues.
Thanks for continuing to stop by for civil discussion.
Peace and Long Life,
Zane
P.S. And good way to avoid some antagonism when discussing things with atheists is to avoid “Pascal’s Wager” (if I’m wrong I lost nothing, but if you’re wrong…), and the “Watchmaker Argument” (if you see a watch on the beach you recognize it as being designed…) as those are really weak arguments that just get so overused by the fundamentalists that it often triggers frustration from having to go through explanations again and can make people assume you to be one of the fundies.
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Cheers Zane.
Re your PS, maybe I AM “one of the fundies”! I have found since turning 40 I don’t care what folk think, so much, and whether I am or not, some (not all of you obviously) of the commenters here are very bold in their judgementalism so they’ll decide anyway. Certainly I’m not too worried about your caution about using the Pascal’s Wager or the “Watchmaker Argument”. I’m not using them in either an intention to persuade, or because I’m a follower of whoever else came up with them; I’m just saying how it feels to be me, where I am… Nothing more, but nothing less either.
You say, “accepting that current scientific theory is likely accurate, but still believing that it was started in motion is still silly in my mind”. If that was what I had said, or meant to say, that would be a deist position rather than a theist position. Deists were those who believed that the Great Watchmaker assembled the watch, wound it up and let it get on with things. I believe that God is a lot more than the GW. I believe that he loves us and wants us to have a relationship with him and am happy to acknowlege that this does seem silly – extremely silly – to outsiders. The Bible actually says that of itself – that the wisdom of the cross is foolishness to those who don’t believe in it. When I read through the comments here I can see that they sound logical and that my faith sounds illogical. I can see that very very clearly. I’m not at all surprised at the frustration FSMers feel about us seemingly bonkers Christians. I’m a cynic by nature, through and through, and it has always seemed to me to be evidence for the miraculous that God has caused me to have faith at all! But my daily experience bears out the reality of this apparent (to you) nonsense.
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I just have to say: you obviously aren’t a human. You must be the FSM, testing us! I knew it! Your noodliness, I have not been swayed! Your noodly appendage is still in my sight, and your delicious sauce is still on the tip of my tongue! That being said, your noodliness, thank you for taking the form of someone who can at least think for himself. I greatly appreciate it.
RAmen!
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Thank you. (I think.)
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We should go get lunch sometime, that can happen. Try praying for God to meet you down the street at McDonald’s, I hope he doesn’t disappoint.
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It was a compliment. =)
And to AnneDroid, I’m so glad for you that Christianity has made you happy. In the same way, Pastafarianism has made me happy.
I used to be a cutter, tried to overdose on my Prozac, and tried to starve myself to death. (I’m 14.) It was recommended that I go to church, so I did. The church I went to told me that I was an idiot for doing this, that I would go to hell for attempting suicide, and that only if I repented for having severe chemical problems in my brain would I ever get into purgatory.
This sickened me beyond belief, so I wandered about for a while, having no religion. My father was a Christian fanatic, and so obviously did not support this.
So I was browsing the internet, I came across Pastafarianism. They teach acceptance and love, and most of all, Ragu!
As I was reading one of these posts by the Pastafarians, an email came to me bearing a single word in its title- Truth.
Nonetheless, by this small miracle, I am convinced I am right in my thinking.
I just wanted to get this out there- there is no insult meant. And even though this does not help with the arguement against us all being broken, I’m fairly sure it’s just me. =3
PS- Christian…. Please think about what you are saying. Would your god want you to say that about him?
Thanks for reading.
Kyra.
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That was my bad attempt at Satire. .__.
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Although none of us have been hurt by xians, in fact you are all an unending source of amusement for us at this site, I would like to say that I hope you preaching type aren’t around when my kids grow up, I don’t want them to be brainwashed like you. I’m going to make a conscious effort to keep them away from people like you. Look at what you posted – it’s complete and utter balls! You say stereotyping is bad, but oh boy can the scientific minds present here make sweeping generalisations when we see patterns emerging? Patterns such as repeated condemning mail from xian crusaders such as yourself?
Another preacher’s epic fail.
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What I want to know is… how can you read all of the educational, satirical posts this site, and still believe in this god rubbish? And on top of that, come and preach at us? Your insatiable appetite for a sense of belonging requires medication and pity from your loved ones.
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“You can’t say I don’t exist just because you have never physically seen me either.” Technically I can since anyone could have written that letter and claimed their name was Christian.
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Littleanimal: “What I want to know is… how can you read all of the educational, satirical posts this site, and still believe in this god rubbish? And on top of that, come and preach at us? Your insatiable appetite for a sense of belonging requires medication and pity from your loved ones.”
With all due respect, not all of the posts on this site are to the same standard of erudition, as I’m sure you’d be willing to admit. Love is blind, is the basic answer to your question. If you could find a group of people who hated my husband to come on and slate him (you couldn’t as he’s rather lovely, lol) it wouldn’t cause me to change my view. Same applies to my faith. As I said at #130, “When I read through the comments here I can see that they sound logical and that my faith sounds illogical. I can see that very very clearly. I’m not at all surprised at the frustration FSMers feel about us seemingly bonkers Christians. I’m a cynic by nature, through and through, and it has always seemed to me to be evidence for the miraculous that God has caused me to have faith at all! But my daily experience bears out the reality of this apparent (to you) nonsense.”
I suppose it’s fun for us all to come on this and other websites (including my own) and have a bit of an argument. It’s stimulating and helps us be rigorous in our approach, but inevitably it IS doomed to disaster. If I commented 500 times a day on this site for evermore, or you guys commented 500 times a day on mine for evermore, it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference. You, and we, believe what we believe.
The trick, in my view, and the priority, is for us to learn mutual respect. I am embarrassed by the tone some Christians take when they come on this site, though I understand it – what you say here is hurtful and makes us naturally defensive. But life (and you guys think we only have a limited one here on earth) would be SO MUCH happier for us all if we could be nice to each other!
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Do you see any of us spagnostics infiltrating the websites of other religions, though? Every debate here at the church of the FSM was begun from someone else poking their nose in and leaving hate mail here. These people wouldn’t have the guts to go sending hate mail on forums for other religions and if it wasn’t the actual reason for the site’s existence it should be no different here. To me it has the same cheek as walking into a cathedral halfway through the first hymn and shouting “Excuse me, excuse me, I’ve taken it upon myself to be the one to let you know you’ve got it all wrong and you’re all delusional.” I wouldn’t do it, because I’d offend people for no reason that did me no harm. I would have imposed. This is what people ask for by imposing on our church of the flying spaghetti monster (praise be unto him).
By even posting on this site proves the nature of these religious nuts. The need to spread things, like old words, and love. Love’s another state of mind that ensured our survival as a species, while evolving. I’ve never seen an argument that justifies any of them coming here yet, only some good spelling, sometimes.
Fair enough I’m at a loss to describe what happened in the first few nanoseconds of the Big Bang but isn’t the rest bloody obvious? Why does there need to be some bloke to start it all, someone to blame for right and wrong, when we should take responsibility for our own actions? It’s all down to which books you find yourself surrounded by at a young age while so impressionable, but why go through one life fearing something/someone that probably isn’t there? Other than making death seem less terrifying? Rotting in the ground when I die so my molecules eventually break down and disperse and maybe becoming part of a plant or being swallowed up when the sun expands into a red giant is not a problem because I’ll be as dead as the surrounding rock and won’t care.
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We may not be able to say that you don’t exist because we’ve never seen you. But surely we can say someone doesn’t exist because no one in the history of the world has ever seen them. (i.e God)
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AnneDroid
I’m sorry you’ve been hurt by FMSists. By walking into our church you should already expect to be on the defensive or even hurt. I still insist that it is all complete and utter rubbish, and unlike you sensitive believer folk we have not been hurt by Christians as the original poster assumed, but we are a little bit insulted that we are asked to do away with the logic thought we attained by experiencing real life while growing up, shortly after we realised Santa was fake too. I deduce that our website is better than Christian variants simply because no arguments or debates occur on them, because everyone else respects your beliefs, and therefore don’t intrude on them.
Remember this is no personal attack on you, I wouldn’t care to fall into an argument about something that has no counter-argument other than people’s own personal accounts of talking with their respective deity and messages of peace, doom, the “End of Time” like Christian states in a more recent post. All of these can from the point of view of a scientist be put down to minor abnormalities in the functioning of the brain. Sorry but those are the facts, and the time when humanity becomes enlightened will be through knowledge and there will be no more religions. We may destroy ourselves in the process first – that is the ultimate test we must pass, and the more religions that coexist (as each one thinks they’re right), the more likely it is to happen through war. That’s the way it goes when technology massively outpaces the wisdom of the dominant species. The sooner everyone snaps out of this need for a saviour the better, just look into yourself instead.
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Littleanimal, at ~140 you say,”Do you see any of us spagnostics infiltrating the websites of other religions, though? Every debate here at the church of the FSM was begun from someone else poking their nose in and leaving hate mail here. These people wouldn’t have the guts to go sending hate mail on forums for other religions and if it wasn’t the actual reason for the site’s existence it should be no different here. To me it has the same cheek as walking into a cathedral halfway through the first hymn and shouting “Excuse me, excuse me, I’ve taken it upon myself to be the one to let you know you’ve got it all wrong and you’re all delusional.” I wouldn’t do it, because I’d offend people for no reason that did me no harm. I would have imposed. This is what people ask for by imposing on our church of the flying spaghetti monster (praise be unto him)”.
I’m very interested in this comment as I’ve been wondering about just this very thing. Do you reckon you speak for the majority of FSMers? I had been wondering whether leaving comments was a rude thing to do, even though I don’t think the comments themselves were cheeky. As you say, it’s your site. I just thought debating was something that was enjoyed and welcome. But perhaps not. If it wasn’t that this was now an older debate and not so many commenters would be visiting it, I’d be interested to know if all your co-commenters also feel it is rude and wrong of Christians to come on this site, as you do, or if they welcome the debating challenge, as I thought.
Incidentally, I certainly don’t think you’re right that agnostics/spagnostics/atheists/etc don’t go on Christian blogs and argue/complain/criticise. I know they do. And personally I don’t mind in the least. I don’t expect everyone who reads my blog to agree with me, and my blogroll is a mixture of Christians and non-Christians…
I appreciate there’s a difference between comments and “hate mail”. I don’t hate people and I wouldn’t send hate mail, and as I’ve already said, I’m embarrassed by the tone some Christians, and some so-called Christians take in their remarks here.
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I always get a giggle out of that. His power of holiness does 600D6 damage to anyone who even looks his general way. But the deadly holiness only radiates from his front, not his back. Or maybe he just has one of those really shiney smiles that will blind you on sight, like the Crest-Toothpaste commercials times 500 000.
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@AnneDroid #143,
Debate is always welcome, judgement sometimes isn’t!
I will admit, I’ve gone to the more idiotic christian websites just to be the mote in their eye! It keeps them on their toes, and they know that we are listening. I really don’t approve of Christians pushing their meme down the populace’s throat, but religions tend to do that. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE RIGHT IN THEIR ASSERTIONS! I capitalized that statement for emphasis because some of the comments directed at yourself and others, by us are likely tainted by our “fervor” for the FSM.
Keep in mind, our religion is satirical, pointing out the lack of believability of any religion. However, our ‘beliefs’ are simply that Christians and like religions are out of line when they try to make implausible things like global floods, the “Fred Flintstone” theory, and people coming back from the dead, science. The church is the preferred forum for those topics, they are not based in scientific observations. So if you come to this website and say something like Jesus is coming and all you people are wrong because you don’t agree with us, you’re going to have a lot of hammers thrown at you. That is just out of fervency, disrespect of opposing view isn’t intended unless you really show deep-rooted stupidity.
I know I don’t speak for everyone but, there should be room for debate, sorry if you got a face full of nettles.
RAmen.
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AnneDroid,
Thanks for the reply, this time you didn’t sidestep every single question I put forward in any of my previous posts with other questions or attempts to make me feel guilty.
As I said, my first post wasn’t a personal attack on you, it’s obvious you fathomed the entire point of this site and are familiar with satire, grammar, good manners and so on, which makes you a very welcome member of our church. My post was directed at the original poster who tried to bless us to eternal stupidity, and I’m sorry I somehow got you mixed up in my arguments as you do seem lovely, maybe I had too many beers and vodka & red bulls with my pasta but as far as I recall you quoted me first.
My point is that this site is designed to strike up arguments with the brainwashed-crusader-type and turn their own arguments against them until they learn to think for themselves, even a little bit, hence my forthcoming attitude in my earlier posts. As you know, some people come here without even reading the opening letter or looking at the graph, assume it’s real, and immediately post the craziest shit I’ve ever seen, using words such as ‘retarded’, ‘douchefag’, and ‘tar’ amongst many other classics to defend their cause, some of which make offensive comments about gays, Jews, gingers, their own god etc. along the way without even realising it! This is what this site is for, to expose these people and make them look foolish in front of their more educated ilk – like yourself.
Ultimately, I’m sure all the Pastafarians here will agree with me too, you are most welcome to post here as you are a prime example to your fellow Christians how to behave at our church, but I think you’re already far too educated to argue with me. So thanks for noticing me but there’s no point quoting me unless you have tangible proof of any god, which I guess I’ll be waiting a long time for.
RAmen to you.
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If we have no idea what God looks like, how can we know we were created in his image. Or is that not meant to be taken literally? If so please educate both me and your fellow christians on how to determine what you should and shouldnt take literally from the Bible. After all, it sure seems like they want us to believe everything word for word, no matter how contradictory, sexist, racist, and impossible it is…
RAmen
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Soo-
I do not speak for all my Pastafarian brethren because I think for myself (that is my hope for people of all religions and creeds).
I must take issue with your assumption that I am hurt by Christians, for I am not. I am insulted by the condescending attitude of Christians that think this nation is first and foremost a Christian nation. It is not a Christian nation as set forth in the first clause of the first amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America. I am pissed off that Christians will stoop so low as to attempt to disguise religious doctine as “science” for the expressed purpose of diluting centuries of the accumulated best knowledge available to confuse young people and turn them toward your religion instead of letting them decide for themselves. I believe Church is a better place for religion than public schools. But if Kansas wants to have religion in schools, then the Church of the FSM should not be left out, for that is discriminatory.
Yes, it is true that Christianity requires faith of the unseen, but so does Pastafarianism. I “believe” that the almighty FSM created mountains, trees, and a midgit as much as you believe Jesus died on a cross for our sins. I respect that you hold these beliefs and hope that you will respect our creed.
Thank you for your polite, non-confrontational concerned criticism. It really was a breath of fresh air to read your letter and not feel like my life would be in danger if I hung out with you at a party.
-Solly Jim
@ Ruben, Post #4 –
“Our religion is based solely on hard facts and truth.”
No it is not. It is founded on the same bullshit principles of every other religion, that being illogic and faith. (Mind you that is the point of our religion – to get our version of creation taught in public schools.)
@ Purser Roderick, Post #8 –
Good One! LOL!
@ ET, the Extra Terrestrial, Post #14 –
Wow. Dude, you could probably copy/paste that response toward every hate mail this site gets (with very few minor edits) and consider your job done. I applaud you.
@ Mario, Post #22 –
A very profound point. I may need to plagiarize that argument next time I have a religious debate with my mom.
@ Easton, Post #74 –
RAmen!
@ Bobby -
People are directing comments toward other commenters (I even made a few in this post). I think a threaded discussion format is in order (think UseNet).
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“but you can’t say I don’t exist just because you have never physically seen me either.”
Poor analogy, Soo. Firstly, your post is a sign you exist, no mattter who you are. There is no such sign a god exists – he never posts here. And please don’t start saying life itself is a sign, because science either can explain it fully now or it could soon.
Secondly, no one (sane) has ever seen god, yet we’ve all seen thousands upon thousands of people, so we KNOW they exist.
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Because if God left a post detailing that Christianity is good and true, we would obviously drop everything and listen, right?
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