Hello, I am a Christian, and I would just like to know, is their any proof of FSM? If so can you please show me the proof, or explain it to me over the web please, I am curios to know. I personally believe this is just some silly religion thought up by an over active imaginative mind of someone. Who told others, and the few that believed him were hopeless in life as it was to begin looking for someone to lead them, and show them the way, so they just followed whatever he said. ( much like scientology)
-Divooneh
Hello, I am a Christian
Published by Bobby Henderson October 2nd, 2008 in Hate Mail (and concerned criticism). 383 Comments
383 Responses to “Hello, I am a Christian”
So close AGAIN. Keep trying buddy.
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KatieBug: I was raised staunchly Episcopalian
I think Episcopalians are especially likely to wind up Pastafarians considering their history. Dude is a Catholic that wants a divorce but can’t have one so he invents his own rules. Pretty much the history of religion in a nutshell.
I was Episcopalian too. And ZOOM!! Here I am!
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Ellen, it’s nice to see someone using some real arguments for belief on these pages, instead of the abuse we usually get from xtians. You “(evolution) is not a spiritual belief, but it is a belief which says the spiritual does not exist.” Actually, of course, evolution is a scientific theory (which makes it different from other kinds of theory) and says nothing at all about the spiritual. Neither do the theory of gravity, or Boyle’s Law, or any other scientific theory. What the theory of evolution does is show that the origin of species took place through natural selection of random mutations. The fact that this conflicts with xtian and other religious dogma is irrelevant to its value as a scientific explanation.
If you take the trouble to read Darwinist authors – Richard Dawkins’ books, particularly “The Selfish Gene” and “The Blind Watchmaker” are very good, but there are plenty of others – you will see that they explain with great clarity how the complexity of organisms like the worm has evolved.
On the other hand the theory of intelligent design, which is not a scientific theory (because it is not based on evidence, and is not testable or refutable) doesn’t really explain anything. If the great variety of life on earth requires an intelligent designer, doesn’t the existence of such a designer also need to be explained? Where did she (or he or it, if you prefer) come from? She clearly be must be more complex than the life she created, according to your reasoning, so I assume she must in turn have been created by a being even more intelligent and complex. So we end up not in an infinite regression, but with the opposite – a series of increasingly complex and intelligent beings stretching into infinity and eternity.
Sorry, but intelligent design is really some parts of the xtian religion masquerading as science. It has as much explanatory power as the Bakuba myth that God vomited out the earth, moon stars and everything else after having a rather unpleasant stomach ache.
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Um PROOF? Hello; since this Christian religion is MOSTLY based on FAITH; I find it odd that you request or require PROOF of the FSM. Now; this being said; isn’t there something in this country that allows for religious freedom? Uh, yeah there is. And guess what; part of the reason we’re here is because there were some folks that didn’t want to worship the way their “government” told them to. If these people want to worship a FSM who is ANYONE to stop them? Are they hurting people? Telling them to drink the Kool-Aide? Waiting for their “spaceship” to rescue the “true believers”? Have ya thought that perhaps they picked the FSM because it is as ridiculous as the whole concept of “Jesus” is to others who may not be Christians?
“If closed minds only came with closed mouths”.
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Hello, I am a Pastafarian, and I would just like to know, is their any proof of Jesus? If so can you please show me the proof, or explain it to me over the web please, I am curios to know. I personally believe this is just some silly religion thought up by an over active imaginative mind of someone. Who told others, and the few that believed him were hopeless in life as it was to begin looking for someone to lead them, and show them the way, so they just followed whatever he said. ( much like scientology)
- not Divooneh
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and do you have any proof of God? if so Please show me. Jackass. think about it. you know pastafairiaism is real. Just let his appendage into your heart. you know you want to.
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is there any proof that ANY god exists? no there isn’t.
And an imaginative mind isn’t a bad thing it is way better than just believing something that the general population of the world enforces on you (coughcoughchristianitycoughcough).
sure FSM is silly, but every religion is silly in its own way.
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The christians tell the athiests they’re going to hell. The athiests feel it’s necessary to give a 12 paragraph scientific doctrine disproving christianity which obviously means nothing them since their beliefs are built on faith…
Point is…You both appear equally moronic to me. The athiests will take this harder because they like the feel like they’re gods themselves for being intelligent enough to reject a belief system.
I can’t even look up a song meaning anymore without catching a 23 page long religious argument.
Athiests: You are not going to change the “feeble minds” of the christians. They don’t care about your science. That’s why religion is a system of BELIEFS. They don’t want or need proof. It is faith and you aren’t going to change any of them by calling them ignorant monkeys and “educating” them. Really I think the real reason you guys like to argue so much is to get more and more up your own asses with elitism. “Oh ho ho! silly religious man! If only the whole world were as intelligent as I am!”. Christians don’t really care. They’re happy because of their religion. They’ll die happy. They live happy. Their belifs, no matter how stupid you think they are, are strong and it’s worthless trying to change them.
christians:Once one of these guys tells you they don’t believe in anything you need to let it go…I understand that your system is almost entirely based on recruiting believers. Fishing or gathering lambs. Whatever you call it now. But your targets really aren’t these steadfast athiests who sit here and compose books of scientific reason against you. Why are you wasting your time on them? You aren’t converting them so move on. Go try someone else. You aren’t going to “save” them no matter how hard you try. They don’t want to be saved.
Athiests i hate to break it to you but you guys are religious too. A religion is a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. Sorry. That’s you. You have very strong beliefs and attitudes concerning gods, the supernatural etc.
Both sides sound equally unwise to me because both sides are “sure” of something that is impossible to be sure of. Athiests, who state science as their doctrine should understand the difference between a belief and a fact shouldn’t they…?
It used to be christans doing all the preaching. Now I see more athiest propaganda, arguments and just general attention mongering than christian everywhere I go. For being so against christians “forcing their religion” on you…don’t you think you should follow your own advice…?
and SHUT THE FUCK UP sometimes?
You aren’t killing christianity. You’re just making the world more annoying to everyone else.
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It’s funny how if one swaps just two words, the whole concept of FSM can be made apparent to Divooneh…
I would have responded as such.
“Hello, I am a Pastafarian, and I would just like to know, is their any proof of Christianity? If so can you please show me the proof, or explain it to me over the web please, I am curios to know. I personally believe this is just some silly religion thought up by an over active imaginative mind of someone. Who told others, and the few that believed him were hopeless in life as it was to begin looking for someone to lead them, and show them the way, so they just followed whatever he said. (much like scientology)”
There ya go. Done. Fin-e-to.
-Divooneh
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@neal (post#249)
Ahh! Now I get it!
What John Shumaker (without a C and a CH? as in Schumacher?) is saying is that a bit of schizophrenic mind division actually benefited the survival and replication capability of our early ancestors who otherwise would have been too aware of their mortality and therefore pretty damn depressed (and therefore unable to “get it up” and propagate the species!)
Perhaps that explains why the Neanderthals died out 40,000 odd years ago… they just got so depressed and apathetic about life that they stopped making an effort to survive (or even to shag!)
In fact we know that at about that time Cro-Magnon man (Palaeolithic homo sapiens) developed forms of art and connected rituals which no doubt gave a meaning to existence. Presumably language and complex modes of thought had just developed or were developing alongside these “artistic”manifestations.
I remember having read some statistical research, which says that religious people tend to be more optimistic and tenacious when faced with stressful difficulties than non-believers who tend to give in and say “what’s the point?!” Instead if you have belief systems which allow things like “life after death” or reincarnation or stripper factories then you’re gonna look forward to death rather than dread it. Of course there is a danger of making life after death look too attractive….
If you really think life after death will be great (better than your life here and now) then you’re gonna kill yourself, aren’t you? (maybe that’s what the Neanderthals did!). This would explain the Christian anathema against suicide: “life after death will be great, as long as you don’t kill yourself, in which case you’ll go to a really nasty place!” It also explains why many religions say you have to EARN a decent life after death by repressing your urges to pleasure and working hard and giving money to the church (this has the double benefit of keeping the faithful alive and paying their tithes, so they can propagate more faithful tithe-payers in future, forever and ever amen!)
I suppose it is true that many religious people tend to optimistic and tenacious and happy, but if the price is living a lie as a slave to a set of dogmas and a bunch of corrupt priests, I’d rather be a bit depressed occasionally but live free from ignorance…. Of course I’d rather belong to that 5% of people who don’t believe in the lies and are optimistic and tenacious and happy!
Thanks for your explanation neal…sorry it took me a while to latch on!
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Question to OckhamsRazor and KatieBug:
what the hell is an “Episcopalian”?
and what is “their history”?
and who is this “Dude” person who “wants a divorce but can’t have one so he invents his own rules”??????
Are you talking about Henry VIII king of England?
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I wrote this in the Comment on the open letter Post 2482:
I’ve just had a brilliant inspirational explanation to unite the theories of Creationism and Evolutionism! It should finally calm the waters of debate and dissention!
Has anyone ever wondered how Cain and Abel (Adam and Eve’s sons) managed to procreate and continue the human species? Who did they mate with if there were no other human beings around? As far as we know they didn’t have any sisters (the Bible doesn’t mention any daughters of Adam and Eve… and procreating with your sister is pretty wierd even for a Christian!)
The only possible explanation is that they fucked with monkeys! (or maybe just Abel fucked ‘em ‘cos he killed poor old Cain, didnt he? I suppose a brother-killer is almost at the same level of depravity as a monkey-fucker) And then these half human – half monkey primitive monkey-men and monkey-women fucked each other until the human race evolved!
So this theory includes a bit of Creationism and a bit of Evolutionism… it’s perfect! Let’s suggest it to the Kansas school board!
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All I can say is, I know I can’t convince any of you that God exists if that’s not what you want to believe…. but I hope that maybe you’ll hear me and consider it… because really, it’s worth thinking about… If you look around the world we live in, though fraught with sin and selfishness, there are many beautiful things. And if you choose to believe that we’re all a coincidence that happened from an explosion, that we can think and feel for no reason, then that’s what you believe. But I believe in Jesus Christ! No matter how stupid you think I am!!!! And his redeeming love is amazing!!! and I’m not schizophrenic. lol. If you look at the universe, it’s logical to believe some one created it. And if it was created, why would the Creator make us? With our cantelope-sized (very smart, but limited) brains, and teensy bodies, what the heck can we do for an omnipotent God? The only logical reason He would create us is because he wants to love us and have a relationship with us. Which is why God sent His Son into the world… to live a perfect life and die on a cross… (but Death couldn’t hold Him)… so that we could be forgiven of our sins and have the choice to be with Him. I pray you all choose correctly. :) That’s what Jesus is about… he’s not about religion at all. I agree, throw religion out the window! Christ-like behavior is in, stupidness and corruption and greed and self-righteous rituals are out. Yay Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hello, I am a christian as well, and I’d just like to say I think your religion is okay, but your probably Asian and so this is going in my blocked list.
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“…just some silly religion thought up by an over active imaginative mind of someone. Who told others, and the few that believed him were hopeless in life as it was to begin looking for someone to lead them, and show them the way, so they just followed whatever he said.” You are speaking of your own religion, Divooneh, not scientology. And most especially not Pastafarianism.
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Ellen, you’re back into your infinite anti-regress again. The universe is amazing and beautiful, and the processes which led to its existence and development are difficult to understand, although we seem to be making great strides towards such an understanding. Maybe the Large Hadron Collider will take us a step forward.
The universe is about 13.7 billion years old, give or take 120 million years. Our earth is about 4 billion years old. The human race has been around for less than a million years. We live on a planet that goes round a small star which is in a galaxy, the Milky Way, that contains between 200 and 400 billion stars. There are millions of galaxies in the observable universe. It seems hardly likely that all this was specially made for us.
That doesn’t mean our lives are purposeless. It does mean that we have to find our own purposes. I don’t believe that there is a god to love us, but that doesn’t mean we can’t love one another. Received religion can be comforting, but we don’t need it, and we should be grown up enough to survive without a security blanket.
Try reading Darwin, or Dawkins (don’t bother with the God Delusion, try his books on evolution). You might find it makes more sense than it seems to at the moment. Take care of yourself!
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I am amazed when people of religion insist our world was created for us!
With around 71% covered in water and 14% desert, it now seems only a fool could have “created” this world for us!
Not to mention the coldest places on this planet can kill humans within minutes!
If the fathfull believe god created this planet then they must concede it was certainly NOT made for us, fish maybe!
And as far as “intelligent design” goes….
Only a fool would “design” a human so flimsy!
Animals have better eyes, ears, smell, touch and in many cases are stronger than us.
So before you religious freaks go on with your arrogant superiority complex remember, it is only the human brain that is better than animals!
All other respects we are feeble!
The simplest creatures on the planet such as virus and bacteria can take us down!
And did god realy love us so much to put such horrific diseases as EBOLA on our “perfect” planet?
The flying spaghetti monster is as good as any religion, go ahead and pray all you want!
In your time of need when you are sick will you go to church? or go to the hospital and ask science to help?
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Ellen (#263) – Why’s it logical the Universe was created? You build your whole argument on this but don’t prove it! I personally don’t think you’re stupid, although I think you’re blinded by faith into an irrational moral system. I respect you for arguing your points civilly. Many of the Christians I know are tolerant and good people. Some are not.
It’s the Christians who believe their rules on personal behaviour should apply to others that I’m against. Judge me if you wish, but don’t try and stop me living my life!
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“264 – October 7th, 2008 at – I am a christian too Says:
Hello, I am a christian as well, and I’d just like to say I think your religion is okay, but your probably Asian and so this is going in my blocked list”
Erm….. If you are serious, I think I may have to slap you severely. And no,I personally am not Asian. I am, however, extrememly fond of Asian people and am so angered by this comment that I don’t know how I’m still seeing straight. For any people of Asian heritiage on here, please believe that no one on here feels this way.
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@Ellen #263 for the following remark: “If you look at the universe, it’s logical to believe some one created it.”
First Ellen, you should really lay off the kool-aid. You’ve had quite enough, dear.
It is NOT logical to believe someone created the universe because then you have to ask the question “who created that being?”
The usual answer is that that being has been around forever. Well, if that being could have just been around forever, then so could the universe. And if you read some recent science articles regarding the “Big Bounce” you might see that that is indeed a recent SCIENTIFIC proposal. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=big-bang-or-big-bounce
Sure, it’s hardly even a theory yet, but it IS being approached with those crazy “fact” things that some of us are so hung up on.
RAmen
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Ellen, I don’t agree with the things u say, but I do respect the fact that u are willing to have a proper conversation with us, instead of -like most christians- screaming to us :-)
U can have a pasta with any sauce u like and a cold beer on the house.
RAmen
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I am a christian too (post#264) Said:
“Hello, I am a christian as well, and I’d just like to say I think your religion is okay, but your probably Asian and so this is going in my blocked list.”
Congratulations for being a truly tolerant Christian! (You are the first one I’ve met on this site!) You accept Pastafarianism’s right to exist!
But what have you got against Asians? Why are they on your “blocked list”? whatever that is! I know they look strange (I personally find some Asian women incredibly sexy and attractive!) and they speak strange languages (But I personally find Japanese the most logical language I’ve ever studied!) and they have strange (but beautiful) writing systems…
But why should you try to “block” them?
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P.S.
I’m still waiting for someone to tell me what an “Episcopalian” is!
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You do realize that absolutely everything you said can be applied to every religion in existence right?
I believe there may be a higher force in the universe, but it has nothing to do with religion.
All religions are the work of people. God did not write the Bible, or the Qu’ran, or the Torah.
It is ignorant, and frankly, dumb to base one’s life on ancient writings that the use of any amount of logic at all would tell us are complete human fabrications.
When the government begins to acknowledge this, maybe we can recommence moving forward as a society.
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tris: I used to be Episcopalian, so I’ll answer.
When King Henry VIII found out that even though the Catholic church seemed to be okie dokey with him lopping off the heads of his wives, they weren’t ok with him divorcing any of them. Gee…go figure.
So Henry said “Screw YOU guys, I’m going home.” And he created his own church, now known as the Church of England which is Catholic + it’s ok to get divorced, basically. I call it Catholic Lite. Or The New and Improved Catholicism™
This church is now known as the Episcopal church.
In other news, my FSM car thingy came in the mail today along with the gospel! Yay!! I stuck the car thingybob proudly on the back of my new Mazda Miata MX-5. A fine place for it indeed.
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Ellen: I don’t think you’re stupid for being a Christian. I think you’re stupid for thinking this is a forum for spreading your “Word”.
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Hello, I am a Pastafarian, and I would just like to know, is their any proof of Christianity? If so can you please show me the proof, or explain it to me over the web please, I am curious to know. I personally believe this is just some silly religion thought up by an over active imaginative mind of someone. Who told others, and the few that believed him were hopeless in life as it was to begin looking for someone to lead them, and show them the way, so they just followed whatever he said. ( much like Islam)
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is there any proof of god
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Hello, have you noticed that when you talk about the flying spaghetti monster, saying that it’s ridiculous, there is no proof and all that, you are describing cristianity. All you radical idiots are the same. Try thinking about what you are saying for once, huh? Why don’t you give that a try?
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Just so everybody knows, I have not given up on this debate with Ellen :)
I have just had more important things to do, such as school and praising the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I will be back soon with a response to Ellen!
And tris: Episcopalian is a Christian denomination religion. It’s sort of like Catholicism, but less strict…
Robin Williams has called it “Catholic Light”.
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Hello again Fliegenden Nudeln (#247)
Thanks for your explanations… I think I misunderstood you when you said “The posts regarding the separation of religious belief and secular science suggest that the human brain is able to construct “logic-tight compartments” with the flow of communication blocked between them”
It seemed that you were advocating some sort of unification of belief and secular science and were suggesting that the separation of belief and science was a sort of block or “denial”!!! Of course I didnt agree!
But in fact you were talking about the mechanisms (which I would call “schizophrenic”) that permit some people to divide their brains between 2 contradictory compartments or “contradictory, concurrent mental paradigms”!!!! I agree!!!!
But I didn’t exactly “suggest that schizophrenia may be an EXPLANATION for religious belief”. Instead I said that religious belief is SIMILAR TO schizophrenia in that it involves a division between everyday “reality” and a belief in what is patently absurd! Those who claim to hear the voice of God directing them to act in some way constitute a much more extreme form of full-blown schizophrenia!
I think we are thinking along the same lines, but these complicated concepts aren’t easy to express clearly, are they?
(Es ist oft sehr schwierig sich auf Englisch gut aus zu drücken, nicht wahr?!)
Anyway, I enjoy getting your feedback….. sorry I didn’t notice your reply till today!
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@ Grapefruit Post#258
I read your post with interest… it’s true that atheists (that is the spelling… not “atheists” as you wrote!) can be a right royal pain in the ass (especially when they lose their sense of humour)… but, as I pointed out elsewhere (see my post #2469 et seqq. in the section of this site called “Comment on the Open Letter”): the great thing about this site is that it is based on a humoristic attitude (I call it “humourism”) and satire, rather than insulting or slagging people off (altho’ a minority of Pastafarians do this as a knee-jerk defence reaction in some mails in response to some particularly abusive Christian attacks!)
It is true that many Christians are happy because of their religion (see my post 260 just after yours!) and I (despite being an atheist) respect that… everyone has a right to be happy, unless that removes another person’s right to be happy, maybe in a very different way!
However you contradict yourself by saying that atheists “don’t believe in anything” and then saying “i hate to break it to you but you guys are religious too” and “You have very strong beliefs…”. According to my definition of belief (see post #2472 in the section of this site called “Comment on the Open Letter) I maintain that atheists “don’t believe in anything”, as you initially say. But it is not necessarily true that they don’t have moral or spiritual values (see post #2472)… as you seem to imply!
Your definition of “religion” as “a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices” is actually circular, since you include the word you wish to define (actually the adjective that derives from it) inside your definition (you use it to define itself… so try again please!)
You also say “Athiests (sic), who state science as their doctrine should understand the difference between a belief and a fact, shouldn’t they…?” Of course, they should… in fact they do! That’s EXACTLY why most of them are atheists… they understand this definition better than religious believers! (see my post #2469)
Your ideas are potentially interesting… but also rather contradictory and confused. In the end you just tell everyone to “SHUT THE FUCK UP”. But you don’t tell anyone where you yourself stand…
It seems to me that if you neither “believe” in religion, nor support the evidence of science, measurable facts and logical analysis then YOU have no position, therefore no valid opinion of your own, and therefore no right to tell others to shut up! Attacking other people’s ideas is no substitute for having your own ideas. It just means you are being annoying for the sake of it! If you can’t make up your mind where you stand (because you have neither the intellectual nor the moral courage of conviction) then YOU should “SHUT UP” (I won’t say “THE FUCK” because I’m a gentleman!)
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P.S. I should have written:
“(that is the spelling… not “athiests” as you wrote!)”
I obviously spell too correctly… I can’t mispell even when I try to! (what a holier than thou pain in the ass we atheists are!)
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#
266 – October 8th, 2008 at – Fogey Says:
Ellen, you’re back into your infinite anti-regress again. The universe is amazing and beautiful, and the processes which led to its existence and development are difficult to understand, although we seem to be making great strides towards such an understanding. Maybe the Large Hadron Collider will take us a step forward.
The universe is about 13.7 billion years old, give or take 120 million years. Our earth is about 4 billion years old. The human race has been around for less than a million years. We live on a planet that goes round a small star which is in a galaxy, the Milky Way, that contains between 200 and 400 billion stars. There are millions of galaxies in the observable universe. It seems hardly likely that all this was specially made for us.
That doesn’t mean our lives are purposeless. It does mean that we have to find our own purposes. I don’t believe that there is a god to love us, but that doesn’t mean we can’t love one another. Received religion can be comforting, but we don’t need it, and we should be grown up enough to survive without a security blanket.
Try reading Darwin, or Dawkins (don’t bother with the God Delusion, try his books on evolution). You might find it makes more sense than it seems to at the moment. Take care of yourself!
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Oh sweet irony!
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Ellen #243 – First let me say that it is refreshing to find a Christian who is willing to engage in an intellectual discussion without resorting to ad hominem and one who comes back to read and respond to comments posted in reply. If you spend any time at all on this website, you might be shocked at how unique you are among people claiming to be followers of Christ.
Be that as it may, let’s not confuse our lively discussion with a bad premise. You assert that Evolution “is a belief which says the spiritual does not exist.” This is untrue. Evolution is a scientific theory constructed to explain observable natural phenomena (facts), just like the Theory of Relativity or the Second Law of Thermodynamics or Maxwell’s equations. It works in precisely the same order as those other theories; it proceeds from observation of facts to the construction of a theory to explain those facts. Also like those other theories, it is strictly limited to the explanation of natural phenomena. Therefore, your premise is not true on two different counts: 1) Evolution is not a belief, it’s a scientific theory, and 2) it is completely silent on “the spiritual.”
It is instructive, however, to explore the confusion because I think it gets to the root of this community’s disagreement with Intelligent Design (ID) and why we oppose its being included in a Science curriculum. I’ll respond to the second issue first because it’s simple. The Theory of Evolution poses no threat to spirituality any more than the Second Law of Thermodynamics does. As a theory constructed to explain natural phenomena, it simply doesn’t address anything supernatural like the existence or non-existence of a god. There are a great number of practicing Christians, probably the majority, who find nothing to quibble about with the Theory of Evolution or any other theory of natural science. The only set of beliefs threatened by Evolution, or any other scientific discipline, is the relatively extreme set of beliefs predicated on the assumption of the inerrancy of the Christian Bible, and specifically the Book of Genesis. Most Christians recognize the Book of Genesis as a story passed down by a Bronze Age people to explain their origins, and they recognize that in four or five thousand years we’ve come up with some better answers.
Back on the first point, ID is a belief, not a scientific theory. ID fails the “theory” test in part because it is an intellectual dead end. Scientific theories are not threatened by new facts; they can either be used to explain those new facts or they can be revised to account for those new facts. My favorite example of the latter is Einstein’s development of the Theory of Relativity as a special case of Newtonian Mechanics. Einstein was able to explain how Newton’s “Laws” begin to break down as objects approach extremely high (relativistic) velocities, but they didn’t break down because they were wrong, they were just incomplete. We still apply Newtonian Mechanics to put satellites in orbit and men on the moon. ID fails this test because it is its own dead end. The entire proposal of ID is finding “gaps” in the theory of Evolution and proposing an unknown and unknowable “Designer” to explain it. It meets new facts with either silence or “must be a miracle” which is tantamount to an admission of failure from a Scientific point of view.
However, what bothers us more is that the attempt to present ID as an alternative scientific theory is at best a misguided and at worst a malignant attack on science itself. ID fails the “Science” test because it is rooted in an alternate world-view to that of science. ID is not an alternative to the Theory of Evolution; it is an alternative to science. Science is grounded in a world-view that sees the universe as knowable. It is a mindset that is open to new evidence because it recognizes that human beings are fallible, understanding that even mistakes are valuable because they lead us to new knowledge. It is a conviction that “gaps” in knowledge are an invitation to new discovery and which only time and effort are required to close. Science is rooted in the concept that nothing is beyond the grasp of Reason.
The attempt to present ID as science is an attempt to smuggle in the concept that there are parts of the universe forever beyond human understanding. ID is based on a world-view that sees “gaps” in knowledge as dead ends to Reason that only “Faith” can explain. Imagine this approach applied to other disciplines. Imagine Copernicus refusing to draw the obvious conclusion from his calculations because his faith dictated that the Earth resides at the center of the universe. Imagine Newton, failing to find a mechanism for gravity, coming up with the theory of “Intelligent Falling.” Where would the human race be if we tried to stuff faith into all the “gaps” of natural science?
This is why we oppose including ID in a curriculum of science. It’s not an argument against the belief in God or even about the validity of ID itself (although I’ll have more on that in a subsequent post). It’s an epistemological argument about how we know what we know as human beings. I have no problem with including ID in any religious curriculum (as long as it’s an elective!), but I do have a problem with the attempt to include it as science.
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Hello OckhamsRazor
thanks for explaining Episcopalianism to me!
Thank you also KatieBug… altho’ your explanation “Episcopalian is a Christian denomination religion” wasn’t exactly detailed… I’d already worked out that it’s a Christian denomination religion (I’m not a total cretin!)
Anyway I enjoy your ironic interventions, especially your latest one about zombies, telepathy, flesh-eating and speaking snakes!
Keep it up baby! BTW I think your attempts to show Ellen the light of reason are sadly doomed to failure, altho I’m impressed by your tenacity! Don’t be fooled by her reasonable tone… it’s a clever invitation to be sucked into a whirlpool of mythological delirium!
PS why “bug”?
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Hello Tree #284
Welcome to the site but please dont just repeat other people’s comments! – we have already read what Fogey wrote… why don’t you write something of your own?
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@ Grapefruit Post#258
My last post was for you, too. If you can make it through the whole pain-in-the-ass post, try to understand the difference between a belief and a scientific theory.
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i have a question for you. if you dont beleive our god exists then how can you beleive that yours does? there both just as silly and stupid of a thought i mean really is a flying spaggetti monster much further off then some all might being there both highly unlikely so until you can find proof that yours does dont go criticising any religion expacaly this one its awsome.
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quote: Robin Williams has called it “Catholic Light”.
Oooh, that makes me happy. I was calling it Catholic Lite way before Williams was Nanoo Nanooing on Mork and Mindy.
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Tree, why have you quoted the whole of my last post? I don’t mind, but it would be nice to read what you have to say.
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@ Tris #282
Thank you humbly for your response. Honestly, I didn’t think I’d get one.
Firstly, let me make it completely clear that my concern is not specific to Pastafarians or any other members of the website. I understand the satire and I think what they’re doing is a spectacular way to get their point across; as opposed to verbally assaulting their enemies like is so common today. Nor am I singling out atheists(thank you for your kind correction),christians or any other religious group. Rather, my problem is with a certain type of person; not a certain belief. It’s just that it seems that the large majority of “these kinds of people” belong to the atheist camp. This kind of person is belligerent, forceful, fascist, narcissistic, rude and just generally unpleasant. I wouldn’t say they all suffer from the holier than thou complex and I certainly wouldn’t say they are devoid of morals and values! I know a great many atheists who are also very fine people.
Secondly, to address my contradiction–I didn’t mean to imply that atheists “do not believe” anything in my address to christians. I staunchly stand by my opinion that technically, they do. It’s just seemed to fit there as a response a christian may get from an atheist(the type of atheist described above, mind you. I do not agree with your definition of belief. Defined bye Merriam-Webster, a belief is :a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing. Atheist’s place trust in what they “believe” is the fact that there is no omnipotent force responsible for creation and regulation. Those who truly “believe nothing” are my people. We are called agnostics.
Very simply, an agnostic is “an atheist without balls” (Stephen Colbert, 2007). There are several forms of agnosticism but I tend to fall closest to “Strong Agnosticism-the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of God or gods and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, “I don’t know whether God exists or not, and neither do you.”
But also fall close to Ignosticism-the view that a coherent definition of God must be put forward before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition isn’t coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of God is meaningless or empirically untestable. Ignostics see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept “God exists” as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against.
That definition of religion was not mine. I just copied and pasted the first I could find. however, I stand by my opinion that atheists do, in fact, “believe something”. That belief, being related to religion, is religious.
Sorry for improper grammar and syntax. It’s not my focus and I’m as far from an English major as possible(programming).
Also, You’ll have to excuse my use of abrasive language. I’m an American teenager. Irritating people is just what we do.
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I’ll be honest about it. It is not atheists who get stuck in my craw, but agnostics. Doubt is useful for a while. We must all pass through the garden of Gethsemane* If Christ played with doubt, so must we. If Christ spent an anguished night in prayer, if He burst out from the Cross, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” then surely we are also permitted doubt. But we must move on. To choose doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation.
Martel, Yann, “LIfe of Pi”, Random House, Canada, 2001, the last paragraph of chapter 7
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proof of FSM? it’s simple. I believe in FSM therfore it exists as a belief system for me. And a very reasonabel one at that, When you compare it with an omnipotent being prone to turn people to salt (gen 19:26 ) when they have been caught enjoying themselves (wich is obviously a crime). OR that we acompared to the belief that we all are posessed by devils from outer space that must be driven out by extensive and expensive psychotherapy. My belief is a positive one.
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@ Grapefruit #293
Actually, the word “Atheist” means, “Not Theist”, so specifically defined, an Atheist does not believe in any god. The word does not imply anything about what we DO believe, only that we DO NOT believe in God. In fact, one of the arguments put forward by atheists to explain their unbelief is that the statement “God exists” is not a meaningful proposition because the word God cannot be defined – it can only be implied by what it is NOT (e.g. not limited, not in nature, etc). If you’re interested in reading further and you have a philosophical bent of mind, you should really pick up a copy of “Atheism: The Case Against God” by George H. Smith.
You are correct in your definition of Agnostic as someone who “doesn’t know”, but I wouldn’t call a teenage agnostic as an “Atheist without balls,” I personally just see it as a step in the right direction. I was raised as a Catholic and had to work hard to finally realize that I was an atheist, passing through a very long period of agnosticism before I got there. It took a lot of work because the word “Atheist” is so vilified in our culture that I had to figure out for myself that being an atheist isn’t evil, it’s just logical.
Incidentally, that’s the same reason that most atheists are such sanctimonious pains in the ass, fending off well-meaning nincompoops who keep trying to “save” you gets a person a little grouchy!
Keep reading!
RAmen
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Words of divooneh could describe christianity as well as fsm. Maybe after 2000 years people kill other people for not believing in an invisible spagetti monster.
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@ justin #290
“i before e, except after c”
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Grapefruit said “my problem is with a certain type of person; not a certain belief. It’s just that it seems that the large majority of “these kinds of people” belong to the atheist camp. This kind of person is belligerent, forceful, fascist, narcissistic, rude and just generally unpleasant.”
I’m sorry you’ve met such unpleasant atheists – are they, like you, American teenagers who believe in their God-given right to be irritating? Most of us are quiet, mild-mannered types who only get out of our boxes to defend our right to a way of life where political decisions are not made because of religious considerations.
As for your assertion that atheists are religious because they believe something that is related to religion, would you say I was superstitious because I don’t believe that black cats are unlucky (or lucky?
Look after yourself!
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tris, your use of the word “schizophrenic” to describe people with religious beliefs is unfair to both groups. People with schizophrenia experience (usually) unpleasant auditory hallucinations – their voices are often persecuting and while they may tell them to kill themselves in very few cases tell them to kill others. They also experience isolating paranoid delusions. It is an extraordinary unpleasant illness.
A science-fiction writer (sorry, I can’t remember who) once described humans as the only species with the ability to believe two contradictory things at the same time. This is technically known as cognitive dissonance, at least when it is accompanied by a feeling of discomfort.
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