Not a hate-mail, but I don’t have a category for this sort:
I am not a scientist but I am a teacher (not in florida). I am a Christian and personally believe in intelligent design. However, I do not believe it is my place to force Christianity into the classroom either. I will live my life as a Christian and feel free to share my faith when necessary and unforcefully. Anyway, I don’t think anyone will get anywhere in this argument. First, even if there was a “Big Bang” where did the first big rock come from and what hit it? Even science can’t explain something coming from nothing. On the flip-side even Christians can’t explain when or how God began. All I know is that science can only explain so much and so does the bible. So, it’s faith in either God or Science. Faith that God did it or that science will discover it. I personally believe that science studies God’s creation including scientific laws. I also believe that there are some things in the Holy Bible that will better understood in the end. Even the gospels told of secrets that were not shared with the masses. Also, who can argue that evolution exists? That’s fact!!! The argument is creation v. just happening.
-tgilmer
Perhaps you should read up on the current research concerning matter and anti-matter, dark matter and the new research that talks about parallel universes and how they might have something to do with the big bang.
Also you make the oldest mistake in the book by saying science doesn’t explain how the big bang happened. So far science can’t explain this but who knows what the future will bring? Scientific breaktrhoughs are being made everyday.
Finally I want to ask you this: why is it that atheists and rationalists always have to prove their point? Why don’t religious people come forth wit real scientific proof in stead of always passing the buck?
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I would not be so insulted had henderob stated “So, it’s faith in either God or Science or the Spaghetti Monster.” How dare he leave out such a reasonable explaination of the Universe.
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BTW: There is no “before” in Big Bang theory. Time did not exist. No did space for that matter. Actually using the verb “did” doesn’t even apply here. There was not “past” in which something “did” or “did not” happen. There is no “pre-Universe” nor is such a concept necessary to explain the current universe. One really has to let go of such irrelevant and unnecessary requirements such as causality.
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I’m standing outside on a warm summer day. Not a leaf is stirring but the clouds high up in the sky are moving. Must be the hand of God. Yeah. Right. I don’t know how it happened so God must have done it. Uh huh. Well I don’t know how the universe came into existence either but I do know that wind pushes clouds and doesn’t always blow in the same place. You’re a teacher, are you? I’m a part time music teacher and although it isn’t one of the sciences I still have to know everything about whatever it is I am teaching that day so that when one of my students asks a question I have all the information possible to help them. They want facts not “God did its”. A good rule of thumb is, “Study first, talk later.”
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Well, it’s nice to have such a polite and sensible mail, isn’t it?
But the Big Bang, as I recall from my yr 10 physics class, wasn’t anything to do with rocks. It was a sudden appearance of energy. Not a hugely important point, but, you know, could be significant in the long run.
Apart from that, I totally agree. It needed saying. We believe in science, just as Christians believe in God. It’s just a more widespread, rationally-based belief. Science may be wrong. The thing is, SCIENTISTS accept that. It just doesn’t really filter through to the masses that they do.
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It was not a “big rock”, silly! It was a Heavenly Meatball, snorted from the Divine Nostril of the Great FSM himself! And as for what hit it, well, that’s obvious too — it was the Hammer of Thor, which is just one of the many sub-manifestations of the Divine Noodly One, to make himself more comprehensible to the feeble minds of men.
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I will tell you exactly where the Atom that exploded into the universe came from and how it all happened after you tell me this.
.
If god is Omnipotent was always and will always be here, If he created the universe and light and time and matter, is the only God no others around. Then what was God doing before he created the universe? Was he in a Void with no light, matter or time? Was he sitting around for Billions of years and then thought I think I’ll make a universe so massive and only populate 1 of 8 planets around 1 star of 200 billion stars in a galaxy of 100 billion other galaxies. I will put people on that 1 planet and have them worship me or I will send them to burn for all eternity after they die. If they don’t follow me I will flood the planet killing them all and start over if needed.
.
I could go on and on if needed but my point is made. What sounds more likely? A bored omnipotent savage being creating all that we see. Or that the universe is just the result of an (as of yet) unexplainable Atom that exploded outward and the laws of physics and gravity?
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HEY MARK! Yes, there was time. M-theory honey. Google it! Shit is fascinating.
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Dear Tgilmer, dear Brother (becaus we are all Brothers, by the Grace of th Flying Spaghetti Monster),
Please, don’t be offended by the messages you read before this one. A lot of atheist pretend they are Pastafarian, but few of them are at last. They are on the way, hopefully, even if the talk science and logic and bla bla bla.
.
I’m happy to share with you some points so we can both teach Creationism in schools.
.
1. Yes, we have to make believe that science is a faith. You are right about this and once we made clear that scientific theories are only theories, we can place our systems of beliefs at the same rank. This is the first dialectical point.
.
2. Yes, we have to mark all the unknown points left by science. Only religious systems are complete and can explain everything. So the lacks in scientific systems proof its insufficiency. This is the second dialectical point.
.
3. Yes, we have to be kind and polite with others, so they listen to us… (But we both know it’s only a tactic. Hé hé…)
.
Using this three points, you and us will be able at last to open the schools’ doors. But, at the very end, children will all be Pastafarian, because our religion is the coolest one.
RAmen
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There’s some “e” missing in the last message, because I have some reserve in writing this letter. “E”volution is not my favorite word, even if, like you, I can say “who can argue that evolution exists?” to soften my opponents.
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I don’t know how the universe was created, so I’m going to asume some dude made it all in under a week.
I don’t what 436574365800143 + 46385454689 X 121233480987 / 543629147584369 – 54643565 equals so I’m going to asume it equals the colour green.
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Oh and BTW …. Science may not have a full explanation yet, but by measuring the expansions of the universe and such we can show that it is moving from a center…singularity if you will…. i work at a national laboratory … they work on this stuff all the time…i recently attended a seminar speaking of the very way the are able to measure this stuff.
Its really amazing the measurable quantities that pint to the Big Bang theory, what measurable quantities point to intelligent design?
Oh thats right, none.
So I ask you what would you teach children about the theory …. ” hey a intelligent designer [god] created everything …hard for text book companies to make much money off that. Now in a theology class sure…. but science… c’mon.
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A…….big………rock?!?!?!?!?!I will pay you $50,000 if you can find a credible physicist who tells you the big bang was “rocks bashing together”. The best explanation for the big bang is a sudden increase in spacetime.Sure at the moment no one knows what caused it, but you are setting up a false dichotomy by saying that since I can’t prove your theory,yours is right. We KNOW the universe is expanding (due to red/blue shift in light etc. etc.).And science expands the vast knowledge our civilisation holds, but can you give me one advancment credited to your dark age mythology in the last hundred years???I thought not.
RAmen brothers
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436574365800143 + 46385454689 X 121233480987 / 543629147584369 – 54643565
= 97315142034.2302318648373678412
97315142034.2302318648373678412 = *google Search* = NOTHING!
I believe now that
97315142034.2302318648373678412
= the beginning time before the universe
and
97315142034.2302318648373678412 + 1
= life
care to prove me wrong?
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1. I assume you have got the point that the bang didn’t involve rocks?
2. How about that we, humans, and everything else are just accidents, lucky ones. We aren’t the point of anything, religions are human centred ego trips, not deity centred.
3. Which leads to: but if the omnipotent being is so bloody omnipotent why do something as messy as evolution in order to create his chosen ones? Why not just create them, fully formed? Why create and make extinct thousands or millions of other species along the way?
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flying spaghetti monster-damn! big rocks?! i hope you are a gym teacher! science explains so many things the bible tries to explain. you are right about evolution though. i guess back in the biblical days bats were birds and whales were fish like the bible says and they “evolved” into mammals. hahaha “just happening”, how eloquent!
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There was no big bang. Read the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and you shall see.
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Perhaps it would benefit you to read up on logical fallacies for the main reason that your argument is a classic example of the argument from ignorance. AKA argument by lack of imagination, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false or is only false because it has not been proven true.
Son Of Law Herder Of Sheep,
Ramen
The section below was taken out of context from The Book Of Intellectual Constipation as known only to The Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster Of Latter Day Pirates (LDP)
I prophet Son Of Law Herder Of Sheep provide divine revelation through the clumsiness of The Spaghetti Monster (TFSM), Have translated The Book Of Intellectual Constipation from golden toilet tissue. Which I discovered after getting drunk and running naked through rose bushes wrapped with barbed wire. Near death I came upon a clearing where I saw an intense noodley light I moved slowly toward the light and in one last drunk attempt peed into the light. I then stopped mid stream noticing that the light seemed agitated by my bodily desires, and it was at that moment the flying spaghetti monster appeared to me. In what sounded like a hollow queiff TFSM said unto me “yo baby when am I getting in them Lane Bryants?” Then in a menstrual moment of clarity I retorted unto TFSM “you are not getting in these pants until you start paying child support”
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i am so amazed at how many ‘atheists’ and ‘agnostics’ get pissed off at ‘our little theory’ of which,
a force, call it god or whatever, had a hand in creating the universe. science is often wrong, just as doctors are. Doctors go to school for many years to get a degree. They diagnose patients, prescribe treatment, and guess what? plenty of misdiagnosis’ are made yet often they are so arrogant when confronted with opposing belief systems like alternative medicine, which in many cases compliment the body’s own healing processes. do all herbs work for everone? no. do naturopaths make mistakes?most likely. I don’t blame people for being alienated by the church, because i myself have had plenty of bad experiences with over zealous ministers and being humiliated. i think the beauty of science of faith is that sometimes they may come to a crossroads. other times are at extremes.
we choose the way of faith, because it has served us well, does it mean we never use science? of course not.
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How about,,,
We did not evolve…. we arrived.
There is no space…… The earth we supposidly live on would implode – giving that dark matter tears apart gasses and liquids,, so size being irrellevant as space is infinate,, the earths atmosphere would not last under the rules of space as we know them.
The moon is closer to the sun than earth…. Why is it not recorded as being hotter than 121 degrees?
Evolution is a far fetched estimate…. Different races of people can breed, however do not look like and function in exactly the same way. Physically and mentally.
If every satelite of a planet has no atmosphere….. then why does Earth have an atmosphere as it is a satelite of the sun?
The Moon rovolves around the Earth and they both revolve around the Sun….. but is it possible the solar systems if they really exist aren’t moving as a unit and remaining in the order they are currently in,, for example, you can move somthing physical on Earth and the particles stay together for example your finger,,
If we had not of introduced religeon and gods…. then man would be equal with man and not have the concept of higher powers and most likely would respect other creatures and people as they should do. The reliability of a higher power is empowering belief that being powerful is possible and that control and manipulation is correct and a successful way to rule a planet.
If God loves all of his/her children….. then why would you go to hell for not believing?
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Try to understand Dawkin’s “God Delusion” Chapter 3
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If you are a teacher, then I am extremely grateful that I am not American. Please please tell me you are not a science teacher!
Your level of ignorance towards even the basics of popular scientific theories is staggering. I pray to the FSM for your poor students.
RAmen.
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tgilmer: Thank you so very much for posting a polite, readable, and relatively reasonable post. I say relatively because, as you already know if you have done much reading from the Hate Mail bag, most of what we see is nothing like this. If you are following the thread (this is the first time I’ve posted before reading a thread completely, it’s getting late), please forgive those among us, Pastafarians or not, who have responded a bit more, well, vigorously than you might have anticipated. We’re just not used to people who seem sincerely willing to discuss viewpoints reasonably, differing though they may.
…
I hope you have followed the thread (Bobby: is it clear to original writers that the threads ensue?), though it must have been difficult at times. You stated clearly early in your post that you don’t feel Christianity (presumably referring in this context to ID) should be forced into the classroom. Thank you, that is all Bobby originally asked for, albeit in what most of us feel was hilariously funny parody form. Had your post ended there the thread might not have been, if my quick review is correct, as vigorous as it was.
…
In any case, thank you for at least implying a willingness to entertain our points of view, however much you may feel they differ with yours.
…
It’s true that science is incomplete and constantly being revised to fit new evidence, and the Big Bang is as inexplicable to me as it is to you. It is, though, a scientific ‘belief’ that best fits the observable evidence, is subject to revision as new facts come in, and is not based on faith.
…
There are many Hate Mail posters we wish would go away, or at least STFU. I hope you will stay and continue to learn why we say what we do, and please contribute responses in the manner and spirit of your original post. We aren’t likely to agree with everything you say, but perhaps we can come to understand a little better why it is you say it. Thanks again.
…
As for anything else: The Flying Spaghetti Monster said it, I believe it, and that settles it! …. RAmen.
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Thank you for being polite. And instead of replying with 5-6 paragraphs respectfully expressing my opinion in regards to yours…I will just ask that you read the post right above mine…for i could not have expressed mine any better.
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What is the contrast between the following two interrogative sentences?
1. Why did you come late?
2. Why you came late ?
Kind Regards,
Mirwais
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They never said the universe came from nothing!! What kind of teacher are you that you have half the facts from the side you don’t want to believe and all of them for the side you are on. Is it really that hard to accept that the universe was always here and we were just lucky enough to evolve this time through the cycle. There is more evidence of a big bang and the big crunch then there is of god. The universes has been here longer than us. I guess the dinosaurs were just a reptile zoo for god that he got bored with and made his human zoo. How is it God doesn’t mention dinosaurs to anyone? What was the point of creating them just to kill them off where is the intelligence there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_crunch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
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Quote “Christians can’t explain when or how God began.”
Let me get this straight. Life on earth is too complex to have just happened. Therefore it must have been created by an intelligent sentient being. Has this being that created life, simply always existed? Or was our creator, similarly to us, created by a higher being? If you choose to believe the former, then you are contradicting your belief in ID. How can we be too complex to just happen, when our even more complex creator did exactly that? On the other hand, if you believe our god was created by a higher god, and that god in turn by a higher god Where did the first god come from?
The big bang theory/theory of evolution does not explain everything.
BUT
The argument for ID is in contradiction of itself.
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Yeah, it’s like this:
The IDer says: A tornado blowing through a junkyard won’t assemble a 747.
But how, then, can that tornado blow through a junkyard and assemble a factory and some engineers who in turn assemble a 747?
Does not make no sense at all ;-)
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How about this — where did god come from? Who put him/her/it in the universe? I say it was the FSM!!! As Marx (Karl, not Groucho) said, “Religion is the opiate of the people.” When people couldn’t understand nor explain their circumstances and surroundings due to a lack of scientific evidence, they invented what, at the the time, seemed like a plausible explanation. What terrifies me is that despite all of the evidence and information that we have now, people continue to believe in these fairy tales that were designed to frighten people into behaving the way those in charge thought that they should. So much for superior life forms!
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This guy is entirely correct in his beliefs about not forcing religion on others. He knows what we’re doing here and he understands what we’re getting at, or at least what point Henderson was getting at. Don’t berate him, he is entitled to his beliefs, however wrong we believe they might be, they are HIS beliefs and as such are completely independant of the facts as we might see them. Agree or disagree, but logic is what sets us apart from the rest, so think logically here and do our best to convince him otherwise. Its his choice if he wants to prostrate himself at the feet of some superior being, for the comfort of an afterlife or whatever, we may not agree with it but thats just us. If you dont have anything calm, collected, and logical to say, go play with the monkeys.
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I like this person, we should invite he or she out to dinner.
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“All I know is that science can only explain so much and so does the bible”. Actually, no, the bible doesn’t explain a whole lot, and much of what it says has been disproven or can’t be verified through research. Things like evolution and the Big Bang can be at least inferred through observations.
Now, as to the universe starting from nothing; maybe it always existed, and the cosmic egg which flew apart in the Big Bang condesnsed from an earlier universe. Or maybe if we look at the laws of entrophy you can actually envision a “positive” and a “negative” splitting out from “nothing”, just as +1 and -1 = 0.
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P.S. But, tgilmer, thank you for the well-written letter. It’s nice not to be called a degenerate or be condemned to hell for a change. May the FSM touch you with his Noodly Appendage – pesto be upon him.
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At least this one can write.
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Even though this one doesn’t seem as bad as some of the others for some reason it still had me chuckling to myself on and off for like 3 days.
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This is a false dilemma. The alternatives are not creation versus big bang. There are an entire spectrum of possible beliefs and the skeptical option is also open. Given the relevant evidence, e.g. the problem of evil, the inordinant number of specimens of ‘design’ flaws, etc… It seems problematic for many to believe in a benevolent, omniscient, etc… creator. As for me the Greek conception of a bunch of finite, and yet very powerful deities who are at best ambivalent strikes me as more believable. But this seems highly implausible as well.
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This guy is a teacher? That is a scary thought.
FYI: the big bang was not two rocks banging together
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jason said:”FYI: the big bang was not two rocks banging together”
Har har harr! XD Thanks for that comment, matey!
Arr, glad it made me that this lubber is at least intelligible.
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HIS NOODELY APENDAGE WILL BE DISCOVERED BY ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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@Nick
cant you actually reply to the post?
@others
The big bang still doesnt work since it defies the laws of thermodynamics
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You present a unique point of view. You also don’t hate or criticize. You’ve got my respect.
RAmen
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QUOTE: First, even if there was a “Big Bang” where did the first big rock come from and what hit it?
Can anyone imagine contemplating this question?
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Atoms, particles and molecules were the first. They joined to form space materials over millions of years.
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The beauty of science is it’s fallibility. Everything is a theory until it’s proven to a certain extent to gain merit. Or something like that.
Anyway, the problem with religion in general is that no one will ever say that their religion is theory. They consider that an insult. They consider their religion as fact. And that, in fact, is a flaw.
Pass the meatball.
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once again,
his noodly appendage will be discovered by all.
i met a pirate the other day, who just HAPPENED to have a birthmark in the shape of HIM
RAMEN
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First, I must apologize for my english, It isn’t my natural language.
Second, I mus apologize If I repeat something that other Pastafarian brother/sister answered before. There are a lot of answers and is late to read all.
This person, even wrong, has a very good perk. He/she doesn’t want to inocculate his/hers beliefs in the young. I belive that religion must be far far away from the youths. Not because I think is harmful (I do), Its just because I belive men and women must have the criticism and experience enough to see how is the world made and then choose theyr religion, all the false ones or the true path of his noodly appendage.
But, this person makes a BIG mistake. Compares a book of legends with the whole science. Sorry, but you are wrong. The science explains how the world “works”, the Holy books doesnt. I know some jibbyjabba from the belivers that try to point some ambiguous versicles as “good old science”. Please, don’t. It only makes you look more silly.
Science makes a long way from nothing to explain the whole creation, trough thermodinamics, gravitation, nuclear forces… and it can be proved. Holy books only say “The light is made”.
Science says: “we don’t know YET how the universe happened”
Religion says: “We know how it happens, it was created. End of discussion”.
If we take the religious way… why research more?
And also… IF WE HAVE TAKEN the religious explanation for some of the previous misterys of mankind… maybe we still in the Middle ages.
When you have all the answers, you don’t need to continue thinking. And this is horrible.
Also, your base point is wrong too.
I’ts a common mistake.
Question: “What was before the big bang?”
Answer: There is no “before” time and space creates with big bang. The question is wrong “per se”.
Yeah, I know it’s fucking weird, but if we are taking the base knowledge of the expanding universe, space was a singularity in the begining… and time creates then.
I have problems to underestand that too. I’ts like the freaking stuff of the 12 dimensions in unification theory, goes aganist all our perception of universe. MUST be one “before”. But the big brains of physics that answered me told me that.
Of course they must be wrong, that’s the good part of science, I don’t have to belive. Nobody was there, we are ignorant.
You call your ignorance “god”.
I call it by it’s name: ignorance.
Why you try to find god behind all the “uncharted” areas of knowledge?
God was the explanation to day and night in the birth of humanity. He losses his place when we underestand the movement of the sun. And he has been ejected from the other areas, medicine, electricity, cosmology… why god must be behind the “last” frontier if he hasn’t been in the previous?
Have the courage to face we are alone, nobody is gonna judge us, nobody is gonna save us. Our life is so precious and short to waste it giving power to the ones that created those myths. Go outside, help your fellows, teach them to love the life and live in harmony with others. If you realize, is not too far of Christ ways.
Sorry if I make somebody yawns.
All Hails the FSM.
Ramen and love to all.
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First, even if there was a “Big Bang” where did the first big rock come from and what hit it?
Technically there wasn’t a collision of ‘big rocks’ …. it was the explosion of an atome that created the universe . Just like the sun , the power of the explosion keep the universe exaclty the same , but each second the power realeased by this explosion is decreasing and returning to the primary atome , ( finally you can say that just like the sun its an explosion of atomes that takes millions of years to implose and regain its primary form ) ….
That’s the exact thesis of the big bang ….more credible than the fact that Adam and Eve had 2 boys …. one killed by the other …. and no more kids …. or have they ? That would me some incest … oh an Noe too …. haven’t he , his wife and son have been the lone survivors of the human race …. again some incest to repeuplate the world …. seriously i personnally prefer putting my faith in the mighty FSM then in a god that forced us in the past to commit incest to repeuplate the world after he created and flooded it …. not you ?
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No big rock, just an expanding singularity. Stephen Hawking; have you read his stuff?
However, well done. Peaceful questioning is the way forwards, and I salute you for it.
PIRATICAL SALUTE!
RAmen to that.
TS-W
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Science Fail.
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Fantastic! It is interesting that people who know only religion will not accept science, but those who understand science are not afraid of accepting religion. Religion, historicaly, has been a way to answer complex questions. Many of which we know now, such as why it rains. A person would look foolish to say the world is flat when I can prove it is round.
If the Gospel is the supposed truth and there is no evidence to support it, then reproductions (copies) of the bible are not valid. Only the original text would be valid. Everytime it is translated, copied, modified, or otherwise manipulated it is no longer the truth, since there is no proof for the original one anyway. Wasn’t the Bible written by humans in the 7th century? How did they conduct their research? There were no libraries or internet, there weren’t even bathrooms during that time. People lived in caves for crying out loud!
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