In response to this post, where I called McCain a douche.
Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation. To the Founding Fathers, this would have gone witout saying – and it is quite clearly the case from the language they used throughout documents of the period, including the Declaration of Independance.
It was also true, however, that by this time in history the hold of Christianity had been greatly weakened, especially amongst those that followed the ideas of the philosophes. The American intellectuals of the day were keen to find the hand of the Christian God in nature, and considered the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same. Thus they considered the nature of God to be knowable by observation and personal reflection, and were so thoroughly disgusted by the European wars in the pursuit of one or another version of the Christian God’s word that they incorporated into the US Constitution an amendment making lawful the free expression of a person’s faith, whatsoever it may be.
McCain is not a “douche” for expressing a simple fact. Likewise, I suspect those who are so adamant about pressing home the freedoms of expression and religious choice as outlined in the first amendment would not be so nearly as enthusiastic in defending the freedoms expressed in the second – consider that just a hunch. Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
-DrCruel
Apperantly, you’ve never read the Treaty Of Triopoly. This country was NOT founded in your god’s name.
DRcruel here you go
this nation was founded on
freedom of beliefs
so dont be stupied
theirs my haiku
and haikus are easy
but sometimes they dont make sense
refrigorator
Mc Cain is NOT a Douchebag!!!! NEITHER is Sara Pailin!!! How DARE you SLANDER the good name of Douchebags like Gilbert Godfried & David Blane by comparing THOSE 2 TURDS to them!!!!!! Douchebags everywhere deserve an apology for this awful slander!!! ^_^
They ARE a remarkable pair though, normally it takes GENERATIONS of Appalachian inbreeding for a candidate to reach THEIR level of stupidity. Their stance on Iraq, Georgia, Abortion, the Economy, Healthcare, all the worst yet. Once they get into office, a secure border with Mexico & Canada will be ESSENTIAL to keep AMERICANS from ESCAPING!!!!
Not only does Dan Quayle look like Einstein in comparison, even PARIS HILTON looks smart as at least she is intelligent enough to REALIZE that she is a moron & compensates accordingly.
Its not that the Democrats are running someone brilliant in Biden, or Obama, its that given a choice between 2 apes & Mc Cain/Palin Id go with Cornelius & Zira before Mc Cain Palin!!!!! After all Dr Zaius was a better science advisor than the current republican “science” the creationists are shoveling piles of into their platform……
I do however understand their lack of concern on the abortion platform as the Minneapolis delegates were all too busty having “Log Cabin” sessions in the Minneapolis Airport bathroom to discuss womens issues……
One-Eyed Butt the Pirate is correct. Many of the founding fathers were Deists. Hell, Franklin attended Black Mass more than once, so we might argue that he was a Satanist. In any case, even ignoring this consideration and assuming that the founding fathers were all Christian, we should also point out that they were all white men, many of whom held slaves. To extend the logic of the Christian Right activists, this means that our country should be based on white supremacy, male dominance, and continued slavery. One more thing: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” You cannot give any religion special treatment.
The nation was founded a time when women still used tampons made of hay.
If you’re going to oppose change in the societal faith systems on the grounds that it wasn’t how it used to be, you should give up your car, modern clothes, iPod, central heating, modern medicine…
“Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation.”
Wrong. Most of them were deists. Look it up.
When Dale Carnegie told Mark Twain his opinion that this nation was Christian, Twain answered “so is hell”.
Dr. Cruel, when you said “the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same” you hit on the purpose of this
website; to promote the pursuit and teaching of science even when it
contradicts what some people regard as religious “truth” (what IS that,
anyway?). Scientific truth is founded on observations and experimentations. Religious truth is based on…?? Third hand – at best – fables from thousands of years ago?
“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Oops, my mistake that’s the Constitution. DrCruel mentioned the Declaration of Independence.
“When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation….”
[DrCruel was right! The declaration does mention God; a God of nature no less. However, that is an attribute assigned to almost every deity in recorded history. Nothing specific here about the Christian God. Moving on to the preamble...]
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator…
[ah, here we go: Creator! Well that's a little non specific, isn't it? I mean the action of Creation (capital C) is one that's assigned, again, to most deities, right? Let's move on, shall we?]
…with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
[There's more to the preamble but there's no further references with any deistic attitudes. Let's examine the document in full now. Hmmmm, lots of complaints against King George...here's the conclusion:]
“We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in general congress, assembled, appealing to the supreme judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states….”
[Hmmm, 'Supreme Judge of the World' well I suppose that COULD be deistic in nature, of course it could also indicate that the Founding Fathers were simply making their grievances against the crown internationally know. That is open for interpretation]
So in the whole of the Declaration of Independence we have three possible instances of non-specific deism and one is ambiguous at best. In fact, the only time the word God is mentioned in the whole document is in the introduction, with no inference to a specific religion. The Federalist papers read much the same way, references to a vague God or Creator with no assignment of a particular religion.
The only thing that is “clear” regarding religion in the documents at the time of the founding of the USA is that the founders saw nothing wrong with deism, and belief in a God is A-OK. However, their non-specificity reveals much about their concerns about religion playing a role in the governance of a nation and the NATURAL RIGHT a person had to choose what belief structure that desired.