Comments on: Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/ Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:22:55 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Amari Guerrero http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-752343 Amari Guerrero Sat, 07 Mar 2009 22:50:37 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-752343 Love it!!! Love it!!!

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]]> By: Aydan Sweeney http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-752336 Aydan Sweeney Sat, 07 Mar 2009 22:42:27 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-752336 Love her. Love her.

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]]> By: Alyson http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-739845 Alyson Sun, 15 Feb 2009 22:37:37 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-739845 Most of the founding fathers were not Christian. Like most of the other great philosophers of their time they were Deists. They were fully aware of the havoc that religion had wreaked on Europe over the centuries. They understood that the cause was the dogmatic beliefs of the church. They mention the god in the Declaration of Independence, but in a Deist way. They did not believe in the trinity, the divinity of Jesus, or the bible as the absolute word of god. Contemporary philosophy was opposed to theocracy and the constitution reflects their beliefs for the clear separation of church and state. Most of the founding fathers were not Christian. Like most of the other great philosophers of their time they were Deists. They were fully aware of the havoc that religion had wreaked on Europe over the centuries. They understood that the cause was the dogmatic beliefs of the church. They mention the god in the Declaration of Independence, but in a Deist way. They did not believe in the trinity, the divinity of Jesus, or the bible as the absolute word of god. Contemporary philosophy was opposed to theocracy and the constitution reflects their beliefs for the clear separation of church and state.

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]]> By: Ember http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-688443 Ember Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:52:10 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-688443 America was founded by Deists. One sentence was all it took to disprove you. Please learn before you try to argue. America was founded by Deists.

One sentence was all it took to disprove you. Please learn before you try to argue.

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]]> By: Clamps http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-655592 Clamps Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:18:14 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-655592 "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Oops, my mistake that's the Constitution. DrCruel mentioned the Declaration of Independence. "When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation...." [DrCruel was right! The declaration does mention God; a God of nature no less. However, that is an attribute assigned to almost every deity in recorded history. Nothing specific here about the Christian God. Moving on to the preamble...] "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator... [ah, here we go: Creator! Well that's a little non specific, isn't it? I mean the action of Creation (capital C) is one that's assigned, again, to most deities, right? Let's move on, shall we?] ...with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." [There's more to the preamble but there's no further references with any deistic attitudes. Let's examine the document in full now. Hmmmm, lots of complaints against King George...here's the conclusion:] "We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in general congress, assembled, appealing to the supreme judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states...." [Hmmm, 'Supreme Judge of the World' well I suppose that COULD be deistic in nature, of course it could also indicate that the Founding Fathers were simply making their grievances against the crown internationally know. That is open for interpretation] So in the whole of the Declaration of Independence we have three possible instances of non-specific deism and one is ambiguous at best. In fact, the only time the word God is mentioned in the whole document is in the introduction, with no inference to a specific religion. The Federalist papers read much the same way, references to a vague God or Creator with no assignment of a particular religion. The only thing that is "clear" regarding religion in the documents at the time of the founding of the USA is that the founders saw nothing wrong with deism, and belief in a God is A-OK. However, their non-specificity reveals much about their concerns about religion playing a role in the governance of a nation and the NATURAL RIGHT a person had to choose what belief structure that desired. “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

Oops, my mistake that’s the Constitution. DrCruel mentioned the Declaration of Independence.

“When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation….”

[DrCruel was right! The declaration does mention God; a God of nature no less. However, that is an attribute assigned to almost every deity in recorded history. Nothing specific here about the Christian God. Moving on to the preamble...]

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator…

[ah, here we go: Creator! Well that's a little non specific, isn't it? I mean the action of Creation (capital C) is one that's assigned, again, to most deities, right? Let's move on, shall we?]

…with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

[There's more to the preamble but there's no further references with any deistic attitudes. Let's examine the document in full now. Hmmmm, lots of complaints against King George...here's the conclusion:]

“We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in general congress, assembled, appealing to the supreme judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states….”

[Hmmm, 'Supreme Judge of the World' well I suppose that COULD be deistic in nature, of course it could also indicate that the Founding Fathers were simply making their grievances against the crown internationally know. That is open for interpretation]

So in the whole of the Declaration of Independence we have three possible instances of non-specific deism and one is ambiguous at best. In fact, the only time the word God is mentioned in the whole document is in the introduction, with no inference to a specific religion. The Federalist papers read much the same way, references to a vague God or Creator with no assignment of a particular religion.

The only thing that is “clear” regarding religion in the documents at the time of the founding of the USA is that the founders saw nothing wrong with deism, and belief in a God is A-OK. However, their non-specificity reveals much about their concerns about religion playing a role in the governance of a nation and the NATURAL RIGHT a person had to choose what belief structure that desired.

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]]> By: TheFewTheProudTheMarinara http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-639775 TheFewTheProudTheMarinara Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:43:10 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-639775 When Dale Carnegie told Mark Twain his opinion that this nation was Christian, Twain answered "so is hell". Dr. Cruel, when you said "the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same" you hit on the purpose of this website; to promote the pursuit and teaching of science even when it contradicts what some people regard as religious "truth" (what IS that, anyway?). Scientific truth is founded on observations and experimentations. Religious truth is based on...?? Third hand - at best - fables from thousands of years ago? When Dale Carnegie told Mark Twain his opinion that this nation was Christian, Twain answered “so is hell”.

Dr. Cruel, when you said “the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same” you hit on the purpose of this
website; to promote the pursuit and teaching of science even when it
contradicts what some people regard as religious “truth” (what IS that,
anyway?). Scientific truth is founded on observations and experimentations. Religious truth is based on…?? Third hand – at best – fables from thousands of years ago?

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]]> By: Dane http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-639199 Dane Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:16:23 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-639199 "Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation." Wrong. Most of them were deists. Look it up. “Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation.”

Wrong. Most of them were deists. Look it up.

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]]> By: Pastafarian Strawberry Thief http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-638355 Pastafarian Strawberry Thief Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:59:24 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-638355 The nation was founded a time when women still used tampons made of hay. If you're going to oppose change in the societal faith systems on the grounds that it wasn't how it used to be, you should give up your car, modern clothes, iPod, central heating, modern medicine... The nation was founded a time when women still used tampons made of hay.
If you’re going to oppose change in the societal faith systems on the grounds that it wasn’t how it used to be, you should give up your car, modern clothes, iPod, central heating, modern medicine…

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]]> By: Nick http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-630412 Nick Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:53:20 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-630412 One-Eyed Butt the Pirate is correct. Many of the founding fathers were Deists. Hell, Franklin attended Black Mass more than once, so we might argue that he was a Satanist. In any case, even ignoring this consideration and assuming that the founding fathers were all Christian, we should also point out that they were all white men, many of whom held slaves. To extend the logic of the Christian Right activists, this means that our country should be based on white supremacy, male dominance, and continued slavery. One more thing: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." You cannot give any religion special treatment. One-Eyed Butt the Pirate is correct. Many of the founding fathers were Deists. Hell, Franklin attended Black Mass more than once, so we might argue that he was a Satanist. In any case, even ignoring this consideration and assuming that the founding fathers were all Christian, we should also point out that they were all white men, many of whom held slaves. To extend the logic of the Christian Right activists, this means that our country should be based on white supremacy, male dominance, and continued slavery. One more thing: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” You cannot give any religion special treatment.

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]]> By: Fred http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-622178 Fred Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:57:36 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-622178 Mc Cain is NOT a Douchebag!!!! NEITHER is Sara Pailin!!! How DARE you SLANDER the good name of Douchebags like Gilbert Godfried & David Blane by comparing THOSE 2 TURDS to them!!!!!! Douchebags everywhere deserve an apology for this awful slander!!! ^_^ They ARE a remarkable pair though, normally it takes GENERATIONS of Appalachian inbreeding for a candidate to reach THEIR level of stupidity. Their stance on Iraq, Georgia, Abortion, the Economy, Healthcare, all the worst yet. Once they get into office, a secure border with Mexico & Canada will be ESSENTIAL to keep AMERICANS from ESCAPING!!!! Not only does Dan Quayle look like Einstein in comparison, even PARIS HILTON looks smart as at least she is intelligent enough to REALIZE that she is a moron & compensates accordingly. Its not that the Democrats are running someone brilliant in Biden, or Obama, its that given a choice between 2 apes & Mc Cain/Palin Id go with Cornelius & Zira before Mc Cain Palin!!!!! After all Dr Zaius was a better science advisor than the current republican "science" the creationists are shoveling piles of into their platform...... I do however understand their lack of concern on the abortion platform as the Minneapolis delegates were all too busty having "Log Cabin" sessions in the Minneapolis Airport bathroom to discuss womens issues...... Mc Cain is NOT a Douchebag!!!! NEITHER is Sara Pailin!!! How DARE you SLANDER the good name of Douchebags like Gilbert Godfried & David Blane by comparing THOSE 2 TURDS to them!!!!!! Douchebags everywhere deserve an apology for this awful slander!!! ^_^

They ARE a remarkable pair though, normally it takes GENERATIONS of Appalachian inbreeding for a candidate to reach THEIR level of stupidity. Their stance on Iraq, Georgia, Abortion, the Economy, Healthcare, all the worst yet. Once they get into office, a secure border with Mexico & Canada will be ESSENTIAL to keep AMERICANS from ESCAPING!!!!

Not only does Dan Quayle look like Einstein in comparison, even PARIS HILTON looks smart as at least she is intelligent enough to REALIZE that she is a moron & compensates accordingly.

Its not that the Democrats are running someone brilliant in Biden, or Obama, its that given a choice between 2 apes & Mc Cain/Palin Id go with Cornelius & Zira before Mc Cain Palin!!!!! After all Dr Zaius was a better science advisor than the current republican “science” the creationists are shoveling piles of into their platform……

I do however understand their lack of concern on the abortion platform as the Minneapolis delegates were all too busty having “Log Cabin” sessions in the Minneapolis Airport bathroom to discuss womens issues……

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]]> By: Devon http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-621273 Devon Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:43:23 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-621273 DRcruel here you go this nation was founded on freedom of beliefs so dont be stupied theirs my haiku and haikus are easy but sometimes they dont make sense refrigorator DRcruel here you go
this nation was founded on
freedom of beliefs

so dont be stupied
theirs my haiku

and haikus are easy
but sometimes they dont make sense
refrigorator

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]]> By: Kira http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-619498 Kira Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:20:47 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-619498 Apperantly, you've never read the Treaty Of Triopoly. This country was NOT founded in your god's name. Apperantly, you’ve never read the Treaty Of Triopoly. This country was NOT founded in your god’s name.

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]]> By: disciple of the noodle http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-616087 disciple of the noodle Sun, 07 Sep 2008 19:19:45 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-616087 Oh, the short sightedness of Republican America! It's very satisfying to be part of FSM, just for the sheer laughs of reading hate mail. Considering pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same? I think you've touched upon the origins of FSM there, you poor victim of right sided HDD. Someone send DrCruel a haiku! He needs it. Pastafari! Oh, the short sightedness of Republican America! It’s very satisfying to be part of FSM, just for the sheer laughs of reading hate mail. Considering pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same? I think you’ve touched upon the origins of FSM there, you poor victim of right sided HDD. Someone send DrCruel a haiku! He needs it.

Pastafari!

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]]> By: Fred http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-613072 Fred Fri, 05 Sep 2008 04:30:32 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-613072 Sara Palin is the WORST VP pick so far. She makes Danny Quayle look like a GENIUS!!! Wonder how she spells potato........ Sara Palin is the WORST VP pick so far. She makes Danny Quayle look like a GENIUS!!! Wonder how she spells potato……..

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]]> By: Cey http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-610949 Cey Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:18:35 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-610949 Is anyone else terrified by McCain's pick for VP; Sarah Palin? Not only does she want creationism taught in schools, but she apparently taught it herself, as well as wanting to require a ban on ALL abortions, even those caused by rape and incest. This looks bad to me, pastafaces. Ramen. Is anyone else terrified by McCain’s pick for VP; Sarah Palin? Not only does she want creationism taught in schools, but she apparently taught it herself, as well as wanting to require a ban on ALL abortions, even those caused by rape and incest. This looks bad to me, pastafaces.

Ramen.

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]]> By: Cap'n Jolly Boots http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-606758 Cap'n Jolly Boots Fri, 29 Aug 2008 04:20:35 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-606758 The Fore fathers of the U.S were Christians as well as racists, and the kind of folk who would tar and feather people who were loyal to Britain....just something to think about The Fore fathers of the U.S were Christians as well as racists, and the kind of folk who would tar and feather people who were loyal to Britain….just something to think about

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]]> By: ali http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-598469 ali Sat, 23 Aug 2008 12:09:59 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-598469 to begin with, even as an Australian i know that America was NOT founded as a christian nation. the founding fathers of your country were unashamed promoters of secular government, and quite possibly agnostics or atheists themselves. however that is not the point. they believed in the separation of church and state, and the right to believe as you wish. that is the basis of every democratic state, and, particularly relevant in this case, America. Dr Cruel, you are mistaken. to begin with, even as an Australian i know that America was NOT founded as a christian nation. the founding fathers of your country were unashamed promoters of secular government, and quite possibly agnostics or atheists themselves. however that is not the point. they believed in the separation of church and state, and the right to believe as you wish. that is the basis of every democratic state, and, particularly relevant in this case, America. Dr Cruel, you are mistaken.

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]]> By: seanpboyd http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-590572 seanpboyd Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:20:51 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-590572 McCain isn't a douche. He's a turd sandwich. McCain isn’t a douche. He’s a turd sandwich.

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]]> By: StJason http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-581500 StJason Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:26:38 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-581500 I once read a study done about how different (American) affiliations interpret things. They used the first amendment for one. Democrats (in this study) interpreted the freedom of religion to mean things like not having a street preacher bothering you while you were on a picnic in the park. Republicans (again, their definition, their study) interpreted freedom of religion as the right to go out on the street corner and scream to the heavens your love of Gosh. ...I think it's interesting and insightful. I really should look up that study. I once read a study done about how different (American) affiliations interpret things. They used the first amendment for one.

Democrats (in this study) interpreted the freedom of religion to mean things like not having a street preacher bothering you while you were on a picnic in the park.

Republicans (again, their definition, their study) interpreted freedom of religion as the right to go out on the street corner and scream to the heavens your love of Gosh.

…I think it’s interesting and insightful. I really should look up that study.

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]]> By: Penny P. Canty http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one/#comment-581441 Penny P. Canty Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:06:11 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2008/06/18/whatever-one-might-say-about-what-this-nation-ought-to-be.htm#comment-581441 The Mighty Meatball said 'If you haven’t really noticed nobody on this site actually believes in a Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster' Very true. I always imagined Him as kind of small...... The Mighty Meatball said

‘If you haven’t really noticed nobody on this site actually believes in a Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster’

Very true. I always imagined Him as kind of small……

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