In response to this post, where I called McCain a douche.
Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation. To the Founding Fathers, this would have gone witout saying – and it is quite clearly the case from the language they used throughout documents of the period, including the Declaration of Independance.
It was also true, however, that by this time in history the hold of Christianity had been greatly weakened, especially amongst those that followed the ideas of the philosophes. The American intellectuals of the day were keen to find the hand of the Christian God in nature, and considered the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same. Thus they considered the nature of God to be knowable by observation and personal reflection, and were so thoroughly disgusted by the European wars in the pursuit of one or another version of the Christian God’s word that they incorporated into the US Constitution an amendment making lawful the free expression of a person’s faith, whatsoever it may be.
McCain is not a “douche” for expressing a simple fact. Likewise, I suspect those who are so adamant about pressing home the freedoms of expression and religious choice as outlined in the first amendment would not be so nearly as enthusiastic in defending the freedoms expressed in the second – consider that just a hunch. Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
-DrCruel
Mwaaaa… grammar! So rare on non-Pastafarian posts!
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The only reason that Douche bag is winning is because he is Christian, and white. He is useing religion to gain a foothold in the election, and that is the lowest way to gain power out there. I’m Canadian so I shouldn’t realy care who wins, but if another “Bush” gets into office, it will very literaly be the end of the world as we know it.
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The Founding Fathers would have been big enough men to admit the err of their ways. Surely they would, today, accept the incontrovertible evidence of His Noodliness’ existence and convert to Pastafarianism. I suggest you do the same, then you might be as boring.
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What if we called him a prig? Would that be alright? How ’bout pandering shithead?
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No DrCruel, my motivation, as I said in reply to Senator McDouche, was the United States Constitution. Specifically, the First Amendment, which protects your right to spew out whatever drivel you choose to defend said McDouche. And which, BTW, contains–and rightly so–no references to Christianity, Jesus, Moses, the Ten Commandments, the Old Testament, the New Testament, Noah’s Ark, loaves and fishes, salt pillars, killing giants with slings, or Charlton Heston for that matter. It is the product of the collective wisdom of the Founding Fathers, and remains one of the singular documents in the history of Western Civilization. It is the basis for the U.S.’ way of life, and it has worked remarkably well since its inception…unless, of course the Founding Fathers were wrong.
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So how about it, DrCruel? Do YOU think that Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, and all the rest who you owe your freedom and livelihood to…were WRONG???
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“On criteria for choosing a president:
“I think the #1 issue … the people should make a selection on the President of the United States is will the person carry on in the Judeo Christian tradition that has made this nation the greatest experiment in the history of mankind. “”
“McCain is not a “douche” for expressing a simple fact. Likewise, I suspect those who are so adamant about pressing home the freedoms of expression and religious choice as outlined in the first amendment would not be so nearly as enthusiastic in defending the freedoms expressed in the second – consider that just a hunch. Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
-DrCruel ”
This is not a simple fact. It is spin. Speechwriters cloud opinion in tradition and simple fact in order to spin phrases. This opinion sounds scary to me. It says “vote christian” in a big loud voice. This opinion seems to imply favouritism contrary to some of those amendments. I’d want to investigate anyone’s motives for bringing religion into political debate. It’s completely inappropriate.
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I am not sure how I missed the McCain-is-a-douche post. Like henderob and DrCruel, I also think McCain is a douche. Thanks for pointing it out!
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“To the Founding Fathers, this would have gone witout saying – and it is quite clearly the case from the language they used throughout documents of the period, including the Declaration of Independance.”
LOL
It’s clearly the case that they went without saying it! They made one generic mention of the creator in the declaration, and didn’t mention is at all in the constitution.
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OK, ever heard of Thomas Paine, the author of The Rights of Man, and The Age of Reason, who said that his mind was his own church?
How about Thomas Jefferson, who coined the phrase “Wall of Separation” between the church and state?
How about that secular document that refers to the people, not a deity, as the source of authority, and adds that there shall be no religious test for office?
A Christian Nation in mind…is what they must have had in mind when they wrote: “Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”?
Need I go on?
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You fail, Drcruel. McCain is a douche and so are you. Go read the documents you mentioned. Then, if you still think the US was founded as a christian nation, I will be more than happy to let you know that you are also a moron.
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Alert: Louisiana Coalition for Science is calling for urgent help nationwide.
From Pharyngula
“Urgent: Call Louisiana, their science is getting away!”
Barbara Forrest:
“We in the LA Coalition for Science have reached the point at which the only possible measure we have left is to raise an outcry from around the country that Gov. Jindal has to hear. What is happening in Louisiana has national implications, much to the delight of the Discovery Institute, which is blogging the daylights out of the Louisiana situation.”
Open Letter to Gov. Bobby Jindal: Veto SB 733
Press Release (pdf) — LA Coalition for Science, June 16, 2008
The LA Coalition for Science invites all concerned citizens to join us in asking Gov. Jindal to veto SB 733.
E-mail: http://www.gov.la.gov/index.cfm?md=form&tmp=email_governor
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DrCruel,
Whatever your opinion may be about the foundations of this country, it was not established as a christian nation. The lack of the word “God” in the Constitution is evidence of this. It was because of Deists like Jefferson that we have a completely secular document which governs us, and although you may wish to “look at the language” of the Constitution, your argument is without merit. I don’t see how anything in the Preamble of the Constitution corresponds to anything Christian, though you’re welcome to point out where I’m wrong.
I also doubt that you even know the language of the 2nd amendment. “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” While I’m not going to debate this issue, and I personally believe in the right of an individual to own a firearm, this statement is not cut-and-dry. It states that the right to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed, for a militia… it does not EXPLICITLY give everyone the right to keep and bare any arms for any reason. While you may make that argument, it’s not in the text
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PS. McCain’s a Douche.
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The second amendment stipulates that in the context of a well regulated militia, the congress shall not abridge the right to keep and bear arms. Somehow all the gun nuts forget about the fact that the amendment was about allowing citizens who were members of state militias to keep and bear arms.
Any of those militias, which were the equivalent of armies raised by the individual states in existence today? Of course not. To then argue that the amendment conveys the right for any citizen to bear any arm with no regulation (note that even militias were to be “well regulated” within the language of the original amendment) is to just flat out misread the amendment. Moreover, supreme court case law supports the interpretation I have just outlined.
BTW, you are educated enough to know about the French Philosophes, so you should be educated enough to know that many of the founding fathers, among them Jefferson, Madison, and John Adams just flat out did not believe in the Xtain god, and those individuals were the most influential in the authorship of the constitution. So when you presume that we are a Xtain nation and all the rest of us nonbelievers are just “guests” in our own country who should step lightly to avoid offending Xtains, the real Americans, you once again distort our Intellectual History to support your own lame, self-serving piggish end.
And I for one, as an atheist, will not accept second class citizenship within my own country when it has been guaranteed to me by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison for over 225 years.
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Btw, most of the founding fathers were Deists, not Xtains, and they believed they would learn more about the nature of their creator by studying creation, that’s quite a difference from saying they “were keen to find the hand of the Christian God in nature.” Your shift has not gone unnoticed!
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[citation needed]
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What kind of argument is the language of that time? The Declaration itself mentions “merciless Indian Savages” and I don’t find that particularly exemplary of the current ideal nature of this nation. The rest of the Declaration speaks in mainly philosophical terms, not Christian terms. Other than “Nature’s God,” there is little to support a Christian nation. Sure, the nation may have been founded _by_ Christians, but the first amendment says “no way.” Try citing something next time.
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And what is your intention of the comparison of the first and second amendments? I find it unrelated to the argument that the nation is a Christian nation, unless you are suggesting that people should pursue the full execution, or perhaps the partial execution, of all the amendments equally. Do you mean that since people don’t fully support the second amendment, they shouldn’t fully support the first amendment, and therefore the nation should be considered Christian? Explain next time.
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The Declaration and other documents of the time are flawed and shouldn’t be followed to the word, be that word Christian in nature or not. The amendments are proof of this; they should be seen as corrections, not merely additions or changes. Note this next time.
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I’m not a big supporter of calling people douches, but calling McCain a douche isn’t exclusively political. He’s practically a proven jackass, “tried and true” as the Founding Fathers might say, and that’s why he has been called a douche. Note this next time.
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I hope this isnt someone who also calls themselves a pastafarian…
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Ye be so right, Dr. Cruel, that be why they put “God” in every American document, rather then referring to `im in obscure ways, like “Creator”.
Truth be, Dr. Cruel, that the Foundin’ Fathers be Pastafarians, which is why they talk that way.
“We hold these truths to be self-evvident. That arr Pirates be created equal, and are endowed by their Creator (whom we now know to be The Noodly One) with certain inalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of booty.”
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Actually, some research will show that a large portion of the nations founding fathers were deist. While the term god was indeed used, god merely means a deity. Any object of worship whether that be Christian or otherwise, monotheistic or spiritualistic. I would like to know where you managed to get the idea that this was founded as a Christian nation, especially being that the nation was partially created for the purpose of religious freedom. The US was never intended as a Christian safe-haven-it was a place where people who wished to live their lives in the best way, as they saw it, could do so without interference from the law.
Nobody has the right to tell somebody they may not do something or live their life in a manner simply because their religion forbids it. Don’t condemn other religions and lifestyles simply because you fail to understand them. Much of McCain’s political base revolves around religion-not logic.
Our country was founded by deists-people who believe that while god may or may not exist, in whatever form you wish to call it-this is the world of man. Deists believe that the greatest gift to man was not religion, but instead reason.
The only thing that separates you from the sewer rats is your brain. Stop blindly following and start thinking.
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One MAJOR, GAPING hole in your argument.
They were Deists, NOT Christians.
So, America was not founded as a Christian nation.
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He’s a douche…
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I would direct you all to watch ZEITGEIST. After that you would never dream of voting McCain.
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Not one place in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution is it stated that the USA should be a Christian country, not one place, the founding fathers knew better than to contradict the laws that they established. As for the mentions of God in those and other such documents, I would like to believe that more than the mantras of faith and dogma surrounding Christianity, the founding fathers were concerned with the positive moral guidelines that the Bible mentions. Also, because they were most likely Christian, they used what they were familiar with, (you probably wouldn’t use Middle Eastern philosophy in an ethics discussion if you didn’t know anything regarding Middle Eastern philosophy, would you?) but once again they did not ever say “Jesus saves” or “O Holy art thou Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, such as could directly denote any direct reference to Christianity. Additionally, being as the Bible would have been the most commonly read book in the (admittedly) predominantly Christian populous of the early years of the Union, using such rhetoric would more greatly appeal to the people (the original goal of democracy, in case anyone forgot), also adding an additional unifying factor to the turbulent times of the fledgling nation. But I digress, the reason that McCain’s statements are “douche”-ish is because those statements show an unbelievable stubbornness and ignorance to the thing that makes this country great, diversity. To simply assume that because you believe that your religion is right and all others should adhere to those beliefs is inexcusable, considering the fact that all races, nations, creeds, and (especially) beliefs, are supposed to be accepted (or at least tolerated) and valued as equal. Also, McCain’s stated that the next president should continue the tradition of Judeo-Christian moral foundation and yet 1.between affairs, deception, and corruption, these supposed “Judeo-Christian morals” do not seem to hold particular sway in the White House and 2. the fundamental morals that McCain was referring to are not necessarily only in Judeo-Christian, but also Muslim, Buddhist, Pastafarian, or any number of other religions, the only difference is the narrow mindedness and blind stubbornness of Christians towards other religions. Therefore, it is not the facts that make McCain come across as “douche”-ish, but the pure ignorant bluntness of the statements that those facts are being used to justify.
Ramen
One more thing, the second amendment rocks, in fact, bearing arms and maintaining a well established militia could be considered a form of free expression, making it an extension of the first amendment in some ways.
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Your founding fathers were by and large deists, as many have said here. Look ‘deist’ up in Wiki. If there’s one thing all deists agree on, it is that god does not interfere in his creation. So leave him out of politics, as was originally intended.
Have you ever wondered why Benjamin Franklin didn’t get fried when he flew his kite in a thunderstorm? Did god protect him? No, It was the FSM who dangled his noodly appendage and grounded the charge.
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Does anyone use the word “thus” in sentences anymore? It seems so old fashioned and gives me the sneaking suspicion this guy cut and paste someone else’s opinion. He also did a bad job of it. Also, a Christian called Dr.Cruel? That’s comedic.
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Ron Paul for Prez!
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Thomas Jefferson Quotes:
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Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
* Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law (1764). Published in The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes, Federal Edition, Paul Leicester Ford, ed., New York: G. P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904, Vol. 1, p. 459.
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I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
* Letter to Elbridge Gerry (1799)
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History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
* Letter to Alexander von Humboldt (Dec. 6, 1813)
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While it is true that a few of the founding fathers wished for references to Jesus Christ, the majority, Jefferson included, had successfully fought the battle against it. Most assuredly they saw the logical conclusion of that legislation which was that they would be creating a type of government which they, themselves, fought to be free from.
[T]he Pennsylvania legislature, who, on a proposition to make the belief in God a necessary qualification for office, rejected it by a great majority, although assuredly there was not a single atheist in their body. And you remember to have heard, that when the act for religious freedom was before the Virginia Assembly, a motion to insert the name of Jesus Christ before the phrase, “the author of our holy religion,” which stood in the bill, was rejected, although that was the creed of a great majority of them.
* Letter to Albert Gallatin (June 16, 1817). Published in The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes, Federal Edition, Paul Leicester Ford, ed., New York: G. P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904, Vol. 12, p. 73.
Just because most were christians, doesn’t mean that they wished for christianity to become the defacto religion. In fact, most of the founding fathers understood what a religion infused government could become and created that seperation to assure that it would never be.
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Ever seen this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli
Look up Article 11.
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Dr. Cruel -
Not sure which history book you’re reading, but to lump all the Founding Fathers (I bet you can’t name three of them) into one religious brand name is so naive. You say (as does McSame) that they were “Christian,” but that term, even back in the 18th century, is extremely broad in its scope. If anything, many of them could qualify as Transcendentalists, some were Anglican, etc. etc. Surprisingly, there’s even a few closet agnostics among them. To think that you can drop in on the Church of the FSM and make sweeping claims about the religious ideologies of the Founding Fathers without considering the company you’re in, and how well-read on the subject of the religiosity of the Founding Fathers many of us are, is again, very naive. Next time, before you enter a den of wolves, make sure you know what a wolf is.
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Epic Fail…….
If you make claims with little basis in reality and even offer nonexistent evidence you can be dismissed out of hand. If only the majority of people were interested in logic and rational thought more than mindless propaganda.
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Show me where it says “Jesus Christ” in our constitution….
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Treaty of Tripoli, article 11:
“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion – as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen…”
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Thomas Jefferson- 3rd president, Drafted Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution, influential on 1st Amendment: “I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
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James Madison- 4th president, influential in the Constitutional Convention, Proposed the 1st Amendment : “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” [April 1, 1774]
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Benjamin Franklin- signer of Declaration of Independence, signer of Constitution: “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
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The founding fathers unanimously approved a treaty in 1797, one of the articles of which said explicitly “As the Government of United States is not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian religion”
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While I disagree with your some of your interpretations. The fact that you provided a calm and intelligent response is a welcome change compared to the standard factless and rude bits that this site recieves every day.
I still think McCain is a douch. The fact that he blantly and strongly repeats what he says almost certainly has political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
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America was established as a Christian nation, it says it right there in the Establishment Clause and the 1st amendment.
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It is clear from the lack of misspelled words and mutilated grammar that DrCruel is unusual – almost unique – among xian users of the internet. Consequently his assertions may seem plausible to the average reader. A few minutes of research, however, can do amazing things to someone’s credibility. Here are a few quotes from some of the “founding fathers” that refute DrCruel’s claims (and McCain’s as well):
George Washington:
“I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country.”
– George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the “Magna-Charta” here refers to the proposed United States Constitution.
“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition … In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
– George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 497.
“Unlike Thomas Jefferson–and Thomas Paine, for that matter–Washington never even got around to recording his belief that Christ was a great ethical teacher. His reticence on the subject was truly remarkable. Washington frequently alluded to Providence in his private correspondence. But the name of Christ, in any correspondence whatsoever, does not appear anywhere in his many letters to friends and associates throughout his life.”
–Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 74-75.
Thomas Jefferson:
“Thomas Jefferson proposed this language [for the new Virginia constitution]: ‘All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution.’ In other words, freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion.”
–Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 38.
“I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor. ”
–Thomas Jefferson, notes for a speech, c. 1776. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 498.
James Madison:
“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
–James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822; published in The Complete Madison: His Basic Writings, ed. by Saul K. Padover, New York: Harper & Bros., 1953.
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect.”
–James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774, as quoted by Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 37.
John Adams:
“We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions … shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power … we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”
–John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, as quoted by Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, p. 1.
“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses…. ”
–John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” [1787-1788]; from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 258.
**Notice also his implicit acknowledgement of the States as separate sovereign entities in the above quotation.**
Benjamin Franklin:
“Benjamin Franklin drank deep of the Protestant ethic and then, discomforted by church constraints, became a freethinker. All his life he kept Sundays free for reading, but would visit any church to hear a great speaker, no doubt recognizing a talent he himself did not possess. With typical honesty and humor he wrote out his creed in 1790, the year he died: ‘I believe in one God, Creator of the universe…. That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children…. As to Jesus … I have … some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.’”
–Alice J. Hall, “Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin,” National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.
Thomas Paine:
“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”
–Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794-1795. From Paul Blanshard, ed., Classics of Free Thought, Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1977, pp. 134-135.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.”
Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794-1795. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 494.
Some other facts about religion in American government-
“E PLURIBUS UNUM … is the Latin motto on the face of the Great Seal of the United States; …. This phrase means one out of the many. It refers to the creation of one nation, the United States, out of 13 colonies. It is equally appropriate to today’s federal system. Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson, members of the first committee for the selection of the seal, suggested the motto in 1776. It can be traced back to Horace’s Epistles [65-8 BCE]. Since 1873, the law requires that this motto appear on one side of every United States coin that is minted.”
–Donald H. Mugridge,World Book Encyclopedia, Volume 6 (E), Chicago: Field Enterprises Educational Corporation, 1976, p.2. “E Pluribus Unum” has appeared on most U. S. coins, beginning in the late 1790s. The motto “In God We Trust” did not appear on any U. S. coin until 1864, when “Its presence on the new coin was due largely to the increased religious sentiment during the Civil War Crisis,” according to R. S. Yeoman, A Guide Book of United States Coins, 38th ed., Racine, Wisc.: Western Publishing Co., p. 89. The religious motto did not appear regularly on U. S. paper money until the 1950s.
“Many of the states, in the period between the Revolution and the adoption of the U. S. Constitution, in order to obviate any suggestion of a religious establishment, prohibited all clergymen from sitting in the legislation.”
–Gordon S, Wood, The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787, New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1972 [orig. publ. 1969], pp. 158-159 [footnote]. Wood cites the state constitutions of Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, New York, South Carolina, and New Hampshire.
“In the eighteenth century the American principle of separation of Church and State was indeed an audacious experiment. Never before had a national state been prepared to dispense with an official religion as a prop to its authority and never before had a church been set adrift without the support of the state. Throughout most of American history the doctrine has provided freedom for religious development while keeping politics free of religion. And that, apparently, had been the intention of the Founding Fathers.”
–Carl N. Degler, Out of Our Past: The Forces That Shaped Modern America [Revised ed.], New York: Harper & Row, 1970, p. 96.
“The group which, along with Calvinist Congregationalists, made the greatest contribution to American cultural and political development was one that in 1787 could be called religious only by a most generous definition of the term. Variously called deists, humanists, and rationalists, they accepted the existence of God so long as He kept His hands out of human affairs. Strongly anti-clerical, they were at best indifferent to organized religion. One indication of their influence on the course of American development is the fact that none of the first seven Presidents was at the time of his election a member of any church, and, perhaps even more important, that the two basic documents of American freedom, the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights, breathe the spirit of deistic humanism.”
–Leo Pfeffer, God, Caesar and the Constitution: The Court as Referee of Church-State Confrontation, Boston: Beacon Press, 1975, pp. 7-8.
“The delegates to the Constitutional Convention [in 1787] took … only two modest steps with respect to religion, both of these being designed to avert problems, not raise them. First, the delegates agreed that “no religious test” should ever be required of federal officeholders, and, second, that one could “affirm” rather than “swear” in taking the oath of office–a clear concession to the tender consciences of Quakers. Other than that, however, the Constitution was totally silent on the subject of religion: no national church, of course, but no national affirmations of faith, either, not even those of the most generalized sort.”
–Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 43.
“If we glance back at our early history, the reasons for placing religious freedom in the First Amendment may become clearer. The quest for that freedom was one of the motives for emigration to America, but not just for those who wanted to be free to practice their own faith. A surprising majority of colonial Americans were not part of any religious community. Even in New England, research shows, not more than one person in seven was a church member. It was one in fifteen in the middle colonies and fewer still in the South, according to the historian Richard Hofstadter.”
–Milton Meltzer, The Bill of Rights: How We Got It and What It Means, New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1990, p. 71.
There are innumerable other examples; these were gathered up with minimal effort on my part. It seems obvious to me that DrCruel has not done even the most cursory research to justify his claims, but rather is simply repeating the unfounded claim of fundamentalist xians across America, that the Constitution was written in church. The evidence is explicit that the founding fathers did NOT “find the hand of the Christian God in nature”. Those who saw the hand of a deity clearly indicate that their concept was devoid of any connection to any organized religion. McCain was most emphatically not expressing a “simple fact”; he was pandering to a particular segment of society, one that perceives itself as morally superior to the rest of the world. Until that segment of society begins to practice what it preaches (love of all humanity, tolerance of difference, help the needy, etc., etc.) instead of scurrying from war to war in support of corporate profits, they will have my complete and utter scorn. And McCain and his ilk will not have any respect from me regarding their political positions or aspirations.
RAmen
ET
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Let us not call someone a douche, for a douche cleanses the loveliest of physical instruments of flesh which many of us, male and female, love to sup. (I realize it’s seldom necessary, as external cleansing is usually sufficient, but it’s so much fun to at least imagine, n’est pas?) Let us rather simply call someone a “hulking bag of shit.” Arrr
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Founders? You mean these guys:
John Adams- 2nd president, Proposed and signed the Treaty of Tripoli (see below)
“Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years.”
letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins in In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.”
letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
————-
Thomas Jefferson- 3rd president, Drafted Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution, influential on 1st Amendment
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” [Notes on Virginia]
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes” [Letter to von Humboldt, 1813].
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” [Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823]
“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own” [Letter to H. Spafford, 1814].
“…an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ…the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’” [Jefferson's Biography]
——
James Madison- 4th president, influential in the Constitutional Convention, Proposed the 1st Amendment
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” [April 1, 1774]
————-
Benjamin Franklin- signer of Declaration of Independence, signer of Constitution
“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
[Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758]
“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.” [Franklin's Autobiography]
—–
Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.
——————————————————————————–
Treaty of Tripoli
Annals of Congress, 5th Congress
Article 1. There is a firm and perpetual peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guarantied by the most potent Dey and Regency of Algiers.
…….
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
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- Proxy – Hey guys! Guys! This guy on the net says we can´t call McCain a douche..
- Da Straw – Aaaww… Why can´t I not call McCain douche anymore…
- Mr – Who could be so vicious and write such a thing … Definitely not one who understood the meaning behind freedom of expression
- Proxy – Donno it´s just a ACTNIP (Angry Christian and a totally non important person)
-Mr- Damn you Proxy, I just thought it was important.
- Da Straw – Then can we still call McCain a douche?
- Mr – Sure thing Strawy.
- Da Straw – Yeeaaaaaayay!! McCain’s a Douche!! McCain’s a Douche!! McCain’s a Douche!! McCain’s a Douche!! It makes me so happy to be able to say it again!!
- Mr – Small minds, small pleasures, as they say. . . . .
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“The American intellectuals of the day” were keen to eliminate any religious power in the government. As I stated in a comment to the regarded subject, J. Adams, B. Franklin, T. Jefferson, and J. Madison were deists of their time. An on-again, off-again Christian, G. Washington consistently encouraged separation of church and State in his lifetime. T. Paine, a historically noted inciter of the Revolution with his book, Common Sense, was also an active deist. The first amendment gives you the right to state your own opinion, not your own truth–religious freedom is blatantly specified in the Bill of Rights, therefore, your argument holds no logic.
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It scares the rest of the world shitless that a country with the military power of the USA manages to run so consistently against the established tide of increasing education and intelligence leading to lower reliance on religion and other superstition.
Guys this was all trending the right way until post-Vietnam, the neo conservatives decided that they had to build a harder society to withstand Communism and that investing in fundamental Christianity was the easiest way to do it. How they did that is well documented (at least outside US).
The Commies are gone, so why the problem with getting this brainwashing out of your system? Believing in a creator that pre-existed time or matter is the biggest piece of nonsense that anyone could fall for. After that, believeing that a “war on terror” will do anything other than massively increase terror is easy.
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Excellent critic, and I have to agree on something. The fashion in which you describe the founding fathers is correct if talking about the average character, even amongst them! Good, I said it. However there were many great controversies, amongst them. Whilst there were no atheists and pastaferians among them, there were agnostics. Some of whom held much influence. It was the religious divide amongst these men that inspired the first, and second amendment. However, as their philosophical feelings about democracy were of the utmost importance to them, they were willing to work together to create a democratic country. It is thus very upsetting seeing people describe this country as a Christian nation, if the US were founded today by the men that founded it back then, it would be a country of religious freedom and choice, not a Christian nation.
In regards to Mac and Obama, they are both politicians, flipping and flopping for the show of a lifetime…. If this country would not be at risk during this political conflict I might well enjoy it, however since it is, my advice is this: “Go Independent!” I am no longer willing to vote along party lines for religious, or tax reasons. Either way I will always pay more then I want to. Americans need more choices, and we need them now!
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2 words: Jefferson Bible
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thank you, believer, neal, obsolete, led3234 and anyone else who pointed that out. apparently there are some people around that have opened their eyes and are not completely blind to the world because their bible tells them to be…
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It beggars belief that so many Americans believe that their own country was founded as a Christian nation. It is distubingly ignorant of their own history.
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“Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.”
Of course it has political motivations. HE’S TRYING TO BECOME THE PRESIDENT.
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Greetings from Britain, the land of your founding fathers’ oppressors.
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The way I understand it, the founding fathers all got on the Mayflower because they were being dictated to by a bunch of religious fundamentalists that they could not in all good conscience agree with. When they got to America, they set up a country where religious fundamentalists were not allowed to dictate the way things were run if that was contrary to the will of the people. Isn’t that what all that constitution stuff is about (I wouldn’t know: we haven’t got one)?
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Anyhow, a few points:
1. You don’t assume anything goes without saying in a legal document, you douche.
2. Does ‘the hold of christianity had been greatly weakened’ mean that you could no longer burn people for blasphemy and witchcraft on the basis of circumstantial hearsay evidence? Good!
3. It is indeed easy to find the hand of the christian god in nature – apparently it is nailed to a bit of tree.
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Hi, I’m an education. Have we met? I assume you read your Christian history books to come to this conclusion, but it’s just not the case. I love how the fact that Jefferson mentions a “Creator” in the Declaration leads Christians to believe he was a Christian. Actually, he was Deist, as were most of the founding fathers. Hate to tell ya bud, but there are alot of religions with a creator. Not just Christianity. I realize that confirmation bias is tough to overcome until you receive an education, so I will let it slide.
The problem is that most Christians take confirmation bias to a new level, arrogance. It is incredibly arrogant to think that any mention of god or a creator must be the Christian version, and not the Deist version. Pretty pathetic actually, since you will never have an understanding of history.
I think the Romans had it right, but we are going to need a lot of lions.
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Gotta tell ya.. I love this belief structure.
even more I love the “hate mail” section.
The “pasta haters” that write in here are empirical proof that the education system
in this country is in the toilet and that blind religiously belief to incorrect information is
rampant in this country.
Ya’ll pastafarians rock on, get sauced up and enjoy! There is a new day dawning and
we shall overcome!
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There is quite a difference between establishing a nation as a Christian Nation and simply having founding fathers who believed in a God. They were all deists or belonged to a deist religion. For example, Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian, meaning freedom of religion for everyone, not pounding Christianity into everyone who comes to the U.S.
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This is a response, not to the message at the top of this comment page, but to all the comments I read through. Holy shit!
I paid what I believed to be a decent amount of attention to the circumstances surrounding the creation of this country, and knew it was created with secular ideas. What I didn’t realize was that there were enough incidents of proof to drown an elephant in.
I feel like I’m sadly and sorely unaware of history, from looking through all that stuff. When I see just how ignorant of history I am after going all through high-school, and having a college education, I start to see that the education system is already quite heavily corrupted.
I also start to wonder if, knowing what they’re eating, a cannibal would be afraid of brain food in the country.
I’ve stated my disagreement with several areas of this country on several occasions already, but hearing about how ignorant people are makes me feel like I’m 2 steps closer to understanding why the worst serial killers don’t seem to have a concience.
Very good comments. I felt like a moron by comparison. My knowledge is obviously broken, and I think it’s as good a time as any to fix it.
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@ Lothoril: exactly! Brilliant comment.
@ anonymous: it is so rare to get such a humble comment, and all the more refreshing for that. And you’re right – this is the most educational thread I’ve ever seen here; so much more satisfying than the ‘you goddam cocksucking motherfucking atheist fag’ threads.
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Et, The Extra Terrestrial and Vermicelli,
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You are true heros to the cause of enlightenment. It is such a shame that so few of those “true believers” will ever see what you have contributed.
.
Right now, I do not have any hope that many Americans will understand the significance of the depth of thought that the founders brought to bear in our beginning. When every political candidate must make a public profession of belief in the christian god in order to have even the slightest chance at election and public education is created more to provide workers for corporations, than to educate free-thinking citizens, there is little to suggest we will see much improvement any time soon.
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Keep the grog coming and please pass the parmesan.
.
RAmen
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a recommendation to anonymous,
as you have stated, our education system is corrupt. they teach you what they want you to know. for example, almost all american history books say that we won the war of 1812. the only thing important that happened in that war is that we pissed britain off, they came over here and burned the white house while our leaders hid in the bushes, and then they sailed away. then while they were sailing away we decided it would make us sound good if we screamed “Yeah! You’d better run!” as they left. but not in our textbooks. in our textbooks we beat the british badly and sent them home crying for mama.
you would probably be better of forgetting everything you know about american history. relearn it from scratch through your own research and you will see the difference!
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Hi there from north of the 49th parallel. Our country was founded upon similar lines although some years later. Our easternmost province was originally a British penal colony. (jail not penis) Although a lot of people from England and France came over for the resources a lot of others came to escape religious persecution. Now, our population growth depends on a fair bit of immigration. This means that all these people coming from other countries are bringing their own religions with them. This fact seems to escape some of our politicians who also tend to say some of the same things as El Doucho.
What’s with these idiots? As our educational system slowly slides into decrepitude the religious fronts advance. Since we’ve had so many immigrants arrive and noticed that many of their children have trouble at school; English isn’t usually their first language; the powers that be have decided to lower the level of difficulty in education. You basically pass just by showing up not learning anything. Universities because of budget constraints now let just about anyone in if they can pay. When the professors fail said students they have been known to try to sue the school. After all, it’s not their fault they’re illiterate. And they did go to church.
Beware of organized religion.
Beware of politicians who would put it in the forefront so as to gain an advantage.
And when it comes to the ignorant masses, be afraid, be very afraid!
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Actually this country was founded SPECIFICALLY excluding gods or religion from influencing the wording of the Constitution in 1787. It was written by a mixture of people from the very religious to avowed atheists and deists who all agreed that religious freedom should be assured AND church should be kept separate from state and politics.
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Paine – the list goes on – ALL atheists or non-believers to different degrees. Read a fucking book instead of letting Fox news feed you your history. Moron.
YOU have freedom to express your religion as do WE. If our belief in beer volcanoes and strippers offends you, then hop on over to Pat Robertsons website and buy a prayer.
And for the record, McCain IS a douche.
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This nation was not founded on christian ideas at all. The person mistakenly called jesus. ( his name
was yeshua, look it up!) would not have condoned killing the people already living here when they complained about thier land being stolen, nor the smallpox blankets, nor forcing them to follow him. This is very un-christ like behavior. You can look up some of the things our “founding fathers” did back then that would be conciderd sinfull nowadays and the christian reich would want them out of office.
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as to the question of the moment : Is the US a christian nation there seems to be ample evidence from that time period ( see above) that the founding fathers thought that it wasn’t. That should settle the issue , however there are things like the motto of “In God we trust” and the reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance that I used to recite to the wall in grade school. These all seem to date to the 20 century when the government was trying to be holier than anyone else to help against the ( perceived) threat of international Communism. some of these relics of past confrontation have taken on a life of their own in simple minds and ergo ( notice that I didn’t say thus lol) we have the allegation that the nation of US was christian from day one. it seems that Drcruel didn’t do his homework very well.
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Why do Christians find this so hard? If the statement “the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation” is true, then the US Constutition would define us as “a Christian Nation”. Does it? No. Do the words “God” or “Christian” appear anywhere in the US Constitution? No. To assert otherwise makes one a liar by definition. If someone repeats a lie often enough, does it becomes the truth? No. Does pandering to this incorrect belief in order to whore votes from Christians make a Presidential candidate a douche? You decide–I tend more toward ‘lying douche’, and if DrCruel wants to paint himself with the same brush, so be it. And you’re damned right it’s political.
…
It doesn’t matter in the slightest what the Founding Fathers believed. They intentionally made the U.S. Constitution a secular document, and America a secular nation. So what if Declaration of Independence (a pre-American document) mentions “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God”? The phrase “Nature’s God” does not equal “Christian”, any more than it equals “Pastafarian”. Were the Founding Fathers Pastafarians? If they were, are we therefore a Pastafarian nation? No. Whoa, wait a minute…. No.
…
It’s easy to argue that the “Laws of Nature” include microfluidic dynamics, quantum chromodynamics, plate tectonics, nanotechnology, biogenetics, and, yes, perhaps even evolution. Do the Founding Fathers beliefs have any bearing on these topics? No. Does it make them Darwinians? No. They were declaring a basic set of rights with which a federation of people, soon to become Americans, could throw off the tyrannical yoke and separate (in effect, declare war) against Great Britain. That doesn’t make them Christians or Darwinists, and it doesn’t make us “a Christian nation”. Get over it, or start shooting Redcoats again.
…
As for anything else: The Flying Spaghetti Monster said it, I believe it, and that settles it! RAmen.
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@anonymous. The beginning of all wisdom is recognizing one’s ignorance.
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If McCain becomes president, I am leaving this country. Founded on Christianity MY ASS!!! What the hell did we come to the Americas for to begin with?!
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Well, well, well. Here we are at the “the U.S. is a christian nation” argument once again. Let’s all re-read the treaty of Tripoli shall we? The line “the U.S. is not in any way founded on the christian faith” is pretty clear. The founding fathers DID NOT put “in god we trust” on the money either. That phrase, and the phrase “under god” in the pledge of alligence, were added during the era of rampant McCarthyism in the 1950’s and 1960’s…they have NOTHING to do with the founding fathers. Besides, Jefferson was an atheist and many of the others were deists. For the record, deism is the belief that there is a creator who simply stepped aside after the creation…no prophesies, no hymns, no speaking to people, no NOTHIN’. JUST a creation. Deists believe that there is no point in praying because the creator either doesnt care or isnt listening, so PLEASE don’t try to tell me that “deist = christian”.
Scott
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oh and p.s.
Go Vermecelli! Excellent research, excellent points and excelent presentation! You seem to be the type who takes no prisoners and offers no quarter. We need more folks like you.
Scott
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Dr. Cruel wildly extrapolates what the founding fathers MEANT to say as much as the Christians seem to know what parts of the Bible they can ignore. Call me old fashioned, but I think I’ll just stick with what the document in fact says and not argue whether or not the F.F.s were Christians, deists (they mostly were) or agnostics. Oh, and it’s also obvious that Thomas Jefferson was a closet pastafarian.
.
RAmen
.
PS – Thank you, Dr. Cruel for posting in a well-written form. It appears your PhD may be in English and not in American History.
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“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” -John Adams from ‘Treaty of Tripoly, article 11′
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” -Thomas Jefferson from ‘Notes on Virginia’
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” -George Washington from the Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.” -Benjamin Franklin
Sorry I don’t have the source for the last one. But you can look the rest up independently. Just a suggestion…. Actually do research before you go spouting off bullshit you hear out of the mouth of a politician with his hands in oil profits, and preachers in the pulpits on this forum. There are intelligent people here. I don’t know if you ever heard this saying, but you can’t bullshit a bullshitter. I know that shit when I smell it.
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The country was not based on Christian principles, and the only mention of God and religion in the constitution is negative–e.g. giving it no official power. The declaration of independence mentions a “creator” but most of the authors were Deists which is about as far away from a Christian as you can get without actually calling yourself an atheist. Furthermore the declaration of independence isn’t even a legal document. It predates the very existence of the United States.
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Reccomended reading for anyone who is interested in broadening their knowledge base regarding American history: James Lowen’s books “Lies My Teacher Told Me” and “Sundown Towns”, and Howard Zinn’s “A People’s History of the United States”. All three are exhaustively researched, well written, and have extensive bibliographies. Very eye-opening.
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I must ring in here….
About McCain being a douche (with or without the bag)
John McCain is a politician – nuff said.
As to the election and why John is winning. A Scottish friend of mind questioned me about the very thing. He asked;
Ay mate, I see you got one canidate who’s a royal bitch and married to a lawyer. And you’ve got another lawyer married to a bitch.
Now across the isle you got an old fella married to a hot chick that happens to own a brewery.
Why do you go on debating?
Anyway, what were we talking about?
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Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were all atheists or deists (Just to name a few). They wrote the first amendment separating church and state. And many of the philisophes heavily influence the founding fathers, read John Locke, the declaration of independence was practically a copy of his book the social contract, Rousseau and Voltaire were good friends with Benjamin Franklin. I would imagine that the separation of church and state they all agreed upon was just a fluke? No where in the constitution is religion mentioned aside from prohibiting it’s influence in government ex: “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” or “Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion or that prohibit free exercise of religion, or laws that infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to peaceably assemble, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
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Aren’t you Atheists just as guilty of pushing your beliefs on others as Christians are?
But unlike Atheists, Christians also run all kinds of soup kitchens and other types of charitable organizations that try to make the world a better place.
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But McCain IS a douche.
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Mcain is not a douche, despite evidence supporting it. he is on fact, a tampon. case closed:D
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I am a realistic pastafarian.
Let’s face it: the country is majority Christian.
No Christianity, no election win. Period.
How is Obama less pandering to these idiots than McCain?
As a Libertarian, none of these guys appeal to me.
It is sad watching “pastafarians” taking sides this way.
We are supposed to be better than the others.
Why are we acting just like them???
This comes from The Gospel, page 78, verse 2.
“I’d Really Rather You Didn’t”… BE MEAN TO PEOPLE YOU DON’T AGREE WITH.
McCain is not a bad guy.
He may be misguided.
Do you not think Obama has his own misguided policies?
Captain Morgan is telling me, after many shots this night, that they are both a little correct and a lot incorrect.
Arrgh, how to choose.
I went to college and got a low paying job.
But I torqued my college time for max learning.
So I moved up, while my mates wallowed.
Now I am making it (not CEO level), but hope to move up.
The Dem thought process is that if I make more, the government takes more.
I do not like that idea.
Being on the cusp of losing all of my deductions (AMT), I will decline a promotion.
The dumber guy then becomes my boss.
How is that good for America?
Lab_rat
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Interestingly, the fact that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers and Third President of the United States was co-author for the ‘Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom’ in which he argues that the concept of compulsory religion is wrong, shows that already at that time in American history, there was no consensus at all about the role Christianity should play in American law. Because of the role of the Founders in American independance of the British monarchy, which was of Christian nature, and because of the efforts that were undertaken at that time to separate church and state, resulting in the first amendment, it should be investigated whether some of the Founders could have been enlighted by the FSM and were in fact Pastafarians in disguise…
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Uhm, actually there was a consensus, and this led to the first amendment.
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HA! I call the person who wrote the response a douche for trying to sound all philosophical and intelligent about religion and ending up looking like a retard for misspelling Philosophy. You sir or ma’am are a Douche Bag extrodinaire for trying to pose as someone who thinks they know religion.
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I’m currently in italy, and it’s quite interesting to find out that the fight over the seperation of church and state has been going on far longer than the creation of the american government. The Guelphs and the Ghibelines fought over this during the medievil times. Honestly, I dont care if I have a christain for a president. I only want a president that allows me to believe in what I want to believe. If McCaine does force his beliefs on the people then he truly is a douchebag. Seperation of church and state is imperative in a nation that is as diverse as this one.
Now, I have a beer to tend to.
RAmen
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My god’s better than your god because my book’s older than your book. That’s why I’m a Hindu baby. Texts back to 1500 B.C. It must be right — after all what could possibly have been learned since then that’s of any value? ;)
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orgainzed religion will be the downfall of humanity
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@Papa Georgio
“Aren’t you Atheists just as guilty of pushing your beliefs on others as Christians are?
But unlike Atheists, Christians also run all kinds of soup kitchens and other types of charitable organizations that try to make the world a better place.”
.
Umm…….NO.
.
I’ve never had an atheist knock on my door to try to talk me out of religion.
.
Never been handed an atheist tract
.
Never heard of an atheist trying to have “In No God We Trust” printed on the currency.
.
Never seen an atheist televangelist begging for money to de-convert the starving children in Africa.
.
And about the charitable organizations – the atheists I know are MORE socially conscious than most christians. They tend to be MORE focused on taking care of other people, not less, since no god is going to do it for us. They just aren’t as boastful about it.
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“Aren’t you Atheists just as guilty of pushing your beliefs on others as Christians are? But unlike Atheists, Christians also run all kinds of soup kitchens and other types of charitable organizations that try to make the world a better place.”
Really? Really? You want to pull the Christian/Catholic vs Atheist humanitarian issues out. You USE the vale of charity to push your believes onto others. Oh and by the way from all reports Bill Gates is an Atheist. He no longer runs Microsoft and runs the WORLDS largest charity giving away Billions each year developing programs which actually may save whole populations and countries rather then band-aid solutions for PR and pumping religious ideas onto the sick, weak and poor.
Run along now.
Oh and BTW it’s FSM not atheism. Wrong forums
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@Papa Georgio
If you care to pay a slight bit of attention, you might notice that many, if not most, of the people who contribute replies to that hate mail that xians spew out with disconcerting regualrity are agnostic, not atheist. The terms are not interchangeable. And no, these people do not push their beliefs on others like xians. Neither Pastafarians nor agnostics are evangelical. Nor, as far as I am aware, are atheists. We/they don’t seek out xian websites to damn the readers and deride their beliefs. We/they don’t go door to door trying to convince people that if they don’t sign up with us they’ll spend eternity suffering horribly. On the other hand, there are numerous secular organizations that run soup kitchens, homeless shelters, fuel assistance agencies, etc. And you don’t see nearly as many stories about the higher-ups in these secular organizations sexually abusing their youngest members as you see about the xian clergy. Don’t try to tell me that the church has exclusive rights to helping people, that’s a load of crap. I spent nearly fifteen years helping people with home construction, home improvements, fuel assistance, fundraising, etc., and never once had anything to do with any church.
ET
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It’s embarrassing watching and listening to presidential hopefulls that have to ‘brown-nose’ themselves to the churches. The best thing that could happen to America is the election of a logical, sensible, reasonable and rational atheist or pirate. Voters must remember what they see and hear is nothing like candidates talk behind closed doors. I can’t vote, but if I could I would never vote for this prat.
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Hey Chris, Half of my family is Hindu the other half practices Santeria. Im still an Atheist and I would never put them down and tell them that my belief is the right one. Oh, and the FSM will always be cooler than your god.
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i don’t know if i read this correctly,but if i did you must be an 11 year old retard with no knowledge at all about this country.(the sad thing is,i’m not lieing.) for one. the founding fathers were strongly against building a nation off of a religion, and according to most of the historical documents most of the founding fathers of the U.S.A. were atheists.and here is an example. if they were strong beliving christians don’t you think that the first ammedment might be something other than “seperation from state and religion”? hmmmmmm but again, i don’t know if i read it right, and i didn’t read it all yet sooo…
-d man
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I think that FSM is just as valaid as all the other religions. I mean a trinity god who impregnated some random virgin and she therefore gave birth to some mangod who, died, arose and ascended into heaven… Yeah THAT sound plausible (oh and for all you christians, that is called sarcasm… memorise it.) and surely if god made mary pregnant he must have took her virginity… But anyway, please don’t spread hate in the name of richeousness and justice because that not only demeans you and your religion but it also gets your god pissed. If he’s there. If we all live right, help each other and respect each other surely none of the gods would be annoyed, but then religion is just an excuse for war. I’m atheist, a Pasifist and proud. I respect everyone for their beliefs and I aim to hurt no one with mine. If adults can’t learn that yet a 15 year old can I have lost all hope and faith in humanity, and I really hope for your sakes that there is no god because hatrid and intolerance are not what he stands for and they are what you stand for, so you are false prophets and condemned by your own beliefs…
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@EvolvedApe,
For a million dollars in Bull shit… I know a girl who is planning on voting for McCaine only because she wants to vote against Obama. I can Vote and I dont believe either one of the two so I most definitley feel you on the not voting for McCaine vibe. May his noodly appendage be with you.
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i dont think people should take this seriously, it is funny and is a good response of creationism. im catolic too but i dont take every world of the bible seriously. most of it is bullsh*t just like the FSM, but its good to laugh about it.
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Christians always resort to their tempers when it comes to separation of church and state… They wouldnt be so happy if it were some other religion… like Islam or Pastafarianism being the dominant.
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I personally believe that buiding America on christian principles was actually a bad Idea…
…Take for example the witch-hunts where hundreds of thousands of christians were killed because of the superstition of witches and wizards existing and plaguing mankind all because witches were mentioned in the bible…
…I believe that the UK and the USA became the two fair nations they are today by embracing freedom of belief and opinion and the FSM is the perfect example of that even…mocking it slightly!
FSM FTW!!!
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One of the most common characteristics of any organized religion is to offer love, salvation, forgiveness, etc to group members. But if you are outside the group, you are excluded. If you are outside the group and are a witch, well, the eleventh commandment dictates that believers in the Judeo-Xtain god are not “to suffer a witch to live”. If you are a Mohammadin, then Urban II can authorize a crusade against you, and you can be slaughtered on the streets of your home town, if that town happens to be Jewrusalem, and your blood can literally run knee deep in the streets.
In short “Love One Another” does not and was never meant to be inclusive of all human beings, but only those who are included in the circle of believers.
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Founded as a Christian nation? No. Not at all. Our founding fathers were mostly deists.
Most notably: Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine/
Also of interest is the fact that George Washington never declared his Christianity (or any religious beliefs) publicly. If someone asked him, he would ignore the question and continue moving along. He also promoted a Chaplain who did not believe in Hell despite the protests of the other “Christian” Chaplains.
I’ll leave you with this:
“The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word ‘Jesus Christ,’ so that it should read, ‘a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;’ the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindu, and Infidel of every denomination.”
–The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Volume 1, p.66-p.67
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While the US was founded by Christians, it was founded with the clear intention that religion should be separated from politics. That is why we have, in our constitution, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.
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Uh, the founding fathers most certainly did NOT found this nation as a Christian nation. How many of the founding fathers do you think were actually Christian?
Thomas Jefferson was a great atheist, and the majority of the founding fathers probably were too.
Quoting Jefferson, “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man” proves that. On top of many of the leaders being atheists, the rest were likely to be deists, all of the shared a common idea: secularism.
John Adams and James Madison are other ones who were opposed to religion.
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.” – James Madison
“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if the were no religions in it.” – John Adams
(To Thomas Jefferson in a letter)”I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!” – John Adams
“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.” – Benjamin Franklin
As you can see, it is complete ignorance to think that a secular nation was founded to become a Christian nation. It is a mistake to believe so, and if you continue to believe that silly idea, you are a fool.
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The Founding Fathers were not Christians, the were Deists. This means they believed that the universe may have been created by a divine being, but he had no further involvement in it. Jefferson in particular rejected the virgin birth, the resurrection, and all of the other miracles described in the bible. No personal god. No answered prayers. Hardly the Christian leader that modern evangelicals want him to be. He used the phrase “separation of church and state” in correspondence with friends. He even published an edited version of the bible, the “Jefferson Bible” to reflect his beliefs. Certainly not a bible literalist as the like the modern sort. If you would take the time to research the actual attitudes of the Founders, instead of repeating the dogmatic teachings of others you would see that I am right.
No, McCain is not a douche for expressing a simple fact. He didn’t express a fact, he expressed an opinion. An opinion _contrary_ to the simple facts. He’s a douche for sucking up to the religious right.
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Yeah.. Ben Franklin who boned the queen of France and was one of the most important scientists of his day certainly thought the bible was totally right word for word, and Jefferson who had many kids with his slave, yeah… those guys weren’t fighting the establishment at all.
The whole “freedom of religion, free speech, and separation of church and state” thing being the FIRST thing they decided as a basic human right… clearly means they thought everyone had to be Christian… it’s all so clear to me now (hey I have an idea, try reading the constitution you tool).
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Dear Dr. Clueless:
Declaration of Independance? Philosophes? What exactly are you a doctor of? Just a hunch, not English…
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He’s not a douche! He’s a douche nozzle, the plastic screw-on piece that enables the douche to work.
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For your information, doctor, a lot of the founding fathers were atheist.
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If you haven’t really noticed nobody on this site actually believes in a Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster. That is probably as ridiculous as believing that a supreme being raped Mary and then lent his son to the world who then performed miracles. Also if this son was so pure then why did he turn water into wine at a wedding? The Bible says that you shouldn’t get drunk but yet Jesus provided more wine for the party. I don’t know for sure but I think that drinking more wine gets you drunker.
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DrCruel,
Read Richard Dawkins novel ‘The God Delusion’, he covers this argument thoroughly.
Oh and your a lying, douche pretending to have some form of intellect while hiding amongst the meek, sheep of the world rather than being yourself, unique or interesting on any level.
With love Dominic
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First, I would like to point out that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were DEISTS, along with Ben Franklin and other founding fathers. You should look up what that means. Second, I would like to point out that they FOUGHT FOR the separation of church and state vehemently. They believed that religion had no place in our laws. AND IT DOESN’T!!! I don’t care what imaginary man you believe is listening when you talk to yourself at night, but keep it to yourself, and out of our laws. I believe that I have the right in this nation to go through life without having your stupid ass christian idea of marriage imposed on me. I believe that I should not have to say “Under God” because I don’t believe it. I believe that I should not have to look at your dumb ten commandments when I go to a government building. I believe that my kids should not have to learn your christian bullshit in public schools when they don’t offer things about my religion (or lack thereof). So keep your shit to yourself and don’t think that I have to follow your rules, because I would rather shoot you than have your dumb religious views imposed on me or ANY other American. I will fight with everything I have against religion in our government. I hope you don’t like it. But religion in government takes away freedom.
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*cough*
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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The Mighty Meatball said
‘If you haven’t really noticed nobody on this site actually believes in a Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster’
Very true. I always imagined Him as kind of small……
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I once read a study done about how different (American) affiliations interpret things. They used the first amendment for one.
Democrats (in this study) interpreted the freedom of religion to mean things like not having a street preacher bothering you while you were on a picnic in the park.
Republicans (again, their definition, their study) interpreted freedom of religion as the right to go out on the street corner and scream to the heavens your love of Gosh.
…I think it’s interesting and insightful. I really should look up that study.
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McCain isn’t a douche. He’s a turd sandwich.
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to begin with, even as an Australian i know that America was NOT founded as a christian nation. the founding fathers of your country were unashamed promoters of secular government, and quite possibly agnostics or atheists themselves. however that is not the point. they believed in the separation of church and state, and the right to believe as you wish. that is the basis of every democratic state, and, particularly relevant in this case, America. Dr Cruel, you are mistaken.
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The Fore fathers of the U.S were Christians as well as racists, and the kind of folk who would tar and feather people who were loyal to Britain….just something to think about
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Is anyone else terrified by McCain’s pick for VP; Sarah Palin? Not only does she want creationism taught in schools, but she apparently taught it herself, as well as wanting to require a ban on ALL abortions, even those caused by rape and incest. This looks bad to me, pastafaces.
Ramen.
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Sara Palin is the WORST VP pick so far. She makes Danny Quayle look like a GENIUS!!! Wonder how she spells potato……..
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Oh, the short sightedness of Republican America! It’s very satisfying to be part of FSM, just for the sheer laughs of reading hate mail. Considering pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same? I think you’ve touched upon the origins of FSM there, you poor victim of right sided HDD. Someone send DrCruel a haiku! He needs it.
Pastafari!
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Apperantly, you’ve never read the Treaty Of Triopoly. This country was NOT founded in your god’s name.
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DRcruel here you go
this nation was founded on
freedom of beliefs
so dont be stupied
theirs my haiku
and haikus are easy
but sometimes they dont make sense
refrigorator
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Mc Cain is NOT a Douchebag!!!! NEITHER is Sara Pailin!!! How DARE you SLANDER the good name of Douchebags like Gilbert Godfried & David Blane by comparing THOSE 2 TURDS to them!!!!!! Douchebags everywhere deserve an apology for this awful slander!!! ^_^
They ARE a remarkable pair though, normally it takes GENERATIONS of Appalachian inbreeding for a candidate to reach THEIR level of stupidity. Their stance on Iraq, Georgia, Abortion, the Economy, Healthcare, all the worst yet. Once they get into office, a secure border with Mexico & Canada will be ESSENTIAL to keep AMERICANS from ESCAPING!!!!
Not only does Dan Quayle look like Einstein in comparison, even PARIS HILTON looks smart as at least she is intelligent enough to REALIZE that she is a moron & compensates accordingly.
Its not that the Democrats are running someone brilliant in Biden, or Obama, its that given a choice between 2 apes & Mc Cain/Palin Id go with Cornelius & Zira before Mc Cain Palin!!!!! After all Dr Zaius was a better science advisor than the current republican “science” the creationists are shoveling piles of into their platform……
I do however understand their lack of concern on the abortion platform as the Minneapolis delegates were all too busty having “Log Cabin” sessions in the Minneapolis Airport bathroom to discuss womens issues……
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One-Eyed Butt the Pirate is correct. Many of the founding fathers were Deists. Hell, Franklin attended Black Mass more than once, so we might argue that he was a Satanist. In any case, even ignoring this consideration and assuming that the founding fathers were all Christian, we should also point out that they were all white men, many of whom held slaves. To extend the logic of the Christian Right activists, this means that our country should be based on white supremacy, male dominance, and continued slavery. One more thing: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” You cannot give any religion special treatment.
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The nation was founded a time when women still used tampons made of hay.
If you’re going to oppose change in the societal faith systems on the grounds that it wasn’t how it used to be, you should give up your car, modern clothes, iPod, central heating, modern medicine…
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“Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation.”
Wrong. Most of them were deists. Look it up.
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When Dale Carnegie told Mark Twain his opinion that this nation was Christian, Twain answered “so is hell”.
Dr. Cruel, when you said “the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same” you hit on the purpose of this
website; to promote the pursuit and teaching of science even when it
contradicts what some people regard as religious “truth” (what IS that,
anyway?). Scientific truth is founded on observations and experimentations. Religious truth is based on…?? Third hand – at best – fables from thousands of years ago?
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“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Oops, my mistake that’s the Constitution. DrCruel mentioned the Declaration of Independence.
“When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation….”
[DrCruel was right! The declaration does mention God; a God of nature no less. However, that is an attribute assigned to almost every deity in recorded history. Nothing specific here about the Christian God. Moving on to the preamble...]
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator…
[ah, here we go: Creator! Well that's a little non specific, isn't it? I mean the action of Creation (capital C) is one that's assigned, again, to most deities, right? Let's move on, shall we?]
…with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
[There's more to the preamble but there's no further references with any deistic attitudes. Let's examine the document in full now. Hmmmm, lots of complaints against King George...here's the conclusion:]
“We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in general congress, assembled, appealing to the supreme judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states….”
[Hmmm, 'Supreme Judge of the World' well I suppose that COULD be deistic in nature, of course it could also indicate that the Founding Fathers were simply making their grievances against the crown internationally know. That is open for interpretation]
So in the whole of the Declaration of Independence we have three possible instances of non-specific deism and one is ambiguous at best. In fact, the only time the word God is mentioned in the whole document is in the introduction, with no inference to a specific religion. The Federalist papers read much the same way, references to a vague God or Creator with no assignment of a particular religion.
The only thing that is “clear” regarding religion in the documents at the time of the founding of the USA is that the founders saw nothing wrong with deism, and belief in a God is A-OK. However, their non-specificity reveals much about their concerns about religion playing a role in the governance of a nation and the NATURAL RIGHT a person had to choose what belief structure that desired.
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America was founded by Deists.
One sentence was all it took to disprove you. Please learn before you try to argue.
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Most of the founding fathers were not Christian. Like most of the other great philosophers of their time they were Deists. They were fully aware of the havoc that religion had wreaked on Europe over the centuries. They understood that the cause was the dogmatic beliefs of the church. They mention the god in the Declaration of Independence, but in a Deist way. They did not believe in the trinity, the divinity of Jesus, or the bible as the absolute word of god. Contemporary philosophy was opposed to theocracy and the constitution reflects their beliefs for the clear separation of church and state.
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Love her.
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Love it!!!
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