In response to this post, where I called McCain a douche.
Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation. To the Founding Fathers, this would have gone witout saying – and it is quite clearly the case from the language they used throughout documents of the period, including the Declaration of Independance.
It was also true, however, that by this time in history the hold of Christianity had been greatly weakened, especially amongst those that followed the ideas of the philosophes. The American intellectuals of the day were keen to find the hand of the Christian God in nature, and considered the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same. Thus they considered the nature of God to be knowable by observation and personal reflection, and were so thoroughly disgusted by the European wars in the pursuit of one or another version of the Christian God’s word that they incorporated into the US Constitution an amendment making lawful the free expression of a person’s faith, whatsoever it may be.
McCain is not a “douche” for expressing a simple fact. Likewise, I suspect those who are so adamant about pressing home the freedoms of expression and religious choice as outlined in the first amendment would not be so nearly as enthusiastic in defending the freedoms expressed in the second – consider that just a hunch. Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
-DrCruel
There is quite a difference between establishing a nation as a Christian Nation and simply having founding fathers who believed in a God. They were all deists or belonged to a deist religion. For example, Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian, meaning freedom of religion for everyone, not pounding Christianity into everyone who comes to the U.S.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
This is a response, not to the message at the top of this comment page, but to all the comments I read through. Holy shit!
I paid what I believed to be a decent amount of attention to the circumstances surrounding the creation of this country, and knew it was created with secular ideas. What I didn’t realize was that there were enough incidents of proof to drown an elephant in.
I feel like I’m sadly and sorely unaware of history, from looking through all that stuff. When I see just how ignorant of history I am after going all through high-school, and having a college education, I start to see that the education system is already quite heavily corrupted.
I also start to wonder if, knowing what they’re eating, a cannibal would be afraid of brain food in the country.
I’ve stated my disagreement with several areas of this country on several occasions already, but hearing about how ignorant people are makes me feel like I’m 2 steps closer to understanding why the worst serial killers don’t seem to have a concience.
Very good comments. I felt like a moron by comparison. My knowledge is obviously broken, and I think it’s as good a time as any to fix it.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
@ Lothoril: exactly! Brilliant comment.
@ anonymous: it is so rare to get such a humble comment, and all the more refreshing for that. And you’re right – this is the most educational thread I’ve ever seen here; so much more satisfying than the ‘you goddam cocksucking motherfucking atheist fag’ threads.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Et, The Extra Terrestrial and Vermicelli,
.
You are true heros to the cause of enlightenment. It is such a shame that so few of those “true believers” will ever see what you have contributed.
.
Right now, I do not have any hope that many Americans will understand the significance of the depth of thought that the founders brought to bear in our beginning. When every political candidate must make a public profession of belief in the christian god in order to have even the slightest chance at election and public education is created more to provide workers for corporations, than to educate free-thinking citizens, there is little to suggest we will see much improvement any time soon.
.
Keep the grog coming and please pass the parmesan.
.
RAmen
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
a recommendation to anonymous,
as you have stated, our education system is corrupt. they teach you what they want you to know. for example, almost all american history books say that we won the war of 1812. the only thing important that happened in that war is that we pissed britain off, they came over here and burned the white house while our leaders hid in the bushes, and then they sailed away. then while they were sailing away we decided it would make us sound good if we screamed “Yeah! You’d better run!” as they left. but not in our textbooks. in our textbooks we beat the british badly and sent them home crying for mama.
you would probably be better of forgetting everything you know about american history. relearn it from scratch through your own research and you will see the difference!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Hi there from north of the 49th parallel. Our country was founded upon similar lines although some years later. Our easternmost province was originally a British penal colony. (jail not penis) Although a lot of people from England and France came over for the resources a lot of others came to escape religious persecution. Now, our population growth depends on a fair bit of immigration. This means that all these people coming from other countries are bringing their own religions with them. This fact seems to escape some of our politicians who also tend to say some of the same things as El Doucho.
What’s with these idiots? As our educational system slowly slides into decrepitude the religious fronts advance. Since we’ve had so many immigrants arrive and noticed that many of their children have trouble at school; English isn’t usually their first language; the powers that be have decided to lower the level of difficulty in education. You basically pass just by showing up not learning anything. Universities because of budget constraints now let just about anyone in if they can pay. When the professors fail said students they have been known to try to sue the school. After all, it’s not their fault they’re illiterate. And they did go to church.
Beware of organized religion.
Beware of politicians who would put it in the forefront so as to gain an advantage.
And when it comes to the ignorant masses, be afraid, be very afraid!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Actually this country was founded SPECIFICALLY excluding gods or religion from influencing the wording of the Constitution in 1787. It was written by a mixture of people from the very religious to avowed atheists and deists who all agreed that religious freedom should be assured AND church should be kept separate from state and politics.
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Paine – the list goes on – ALL atheists or non-believers to different degrees. Read a fucking book instead of letting Fox news feed you your history. Moron.
YOU have freedom to express your religion as do WE. If our belief in beer volcanoes and strippers offends you, then hop on over to Pat Robertsons website and buy a prayer.
And for the record, McCain IS a douche.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
This nation was not founded on christian ideas at all. The person mistakenly called jesus. ( his name
was yeshua, look it up!) would not have condoned killing the people already living here when they complained about thier land being stolen, nor the smallpox blankets, nor forcing them to follow him. This is very un-christ like behavior. You can look up some of the things our “founding fathers” did back then that would be conciderd sinfull nowadays and the christian reich would want them out of office.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
as to the question of the moment : Is the US a christian nation there seems to be ample evidence from that time period ( see above) that the founding fathers thought that it wasn’t. That should settle the issue , however there are things like the motto of “In God we trust” and the reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance that I used to recite to the wall in grade school. These all seem to date to the 20 century when the government was trying to be holier than anyone else to help against the ( perceived) threat of international Communism. some of these relics of past confrontation have taken on a life of their own in simple minds and ergo ( notice that I didn’t say thus lol) we have the allegation that the nation of US was christian from day one. it seems that Drcruel didn’t do his homework very well.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Why do Christians find this so hard? If the statement “the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation” is true, then the US Constutition would define us as “a Christian Nation”. Does it? No. Do the words “God” or “Christian” appear anywhere in the US Constitution? No. To assert otherwise makes one a liar by definition. If someone repeats a lie often enough, does it becomes the truth? No. Does pandering to this incorrect belief in order to whore votes from Christians make a Presidential candidate a douche? You decide–I tend more toward ‘lying douche’, and if DrCruel wants to paint himself with the same brush, so be it. And you’re damned right it’s political.
…
It doesn’t matter in the slightest what the Founding Fathers believed. They intentionally made the U.S. Constitution a secular document, and America a secular nation. So what if Declaration of Independence (a pre-American document) mentions “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God”? The phrase “Nature’s God” does not equal “Christian”, any more than it equals “Pastafarian”. Were the Founding Fathers Pastafarians? If they were, are we therefore a Pastafarian nation? No. Whoa, wait a minute…. No.
…
It’s easy to argue that the “Laws of Nature” include microfluidic dynamics, quantum chromodynamics, plate tectonics, nanotechnology, biogenetics, and, yes, perhaps even evolution. Do the Founding Fathers beliefs have any bearing on these topics? No. Does it make them Darwinians? No. They were declaring a basic set of rights with which a federation of people, soon to become Americans, could throw off the tyrannical yoke and separate (in effect, declare war) against Great Britain. That doesn’t make them Christians or Darwinists, and it doesn’t make us “a Christian nation”. Get over it, or start shooting Redcoats again.
…
As for anything else: The Flying Spaghetti Monster said it, I believe it, and that settles it! RAmen.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
@anonymous. The beginning of all wisdom is recognizing one’s ignorance.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
If McCain becomes president, I am leaving this country. Founded on Christianity MY ASS!!! What the hell did we come to the Americas for to begin with?!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Well, well, well. Here we are at the “the U.S. is a christian nation” argument once again. Let’s all re-read the treaty of Tripoli shall we? The line “the U.S. is not in any way founded on the christian faith” is pretty clear. The founding fathers DID NOT put “in god we trust” on the money either. That phrase, and the phrase “under god” in the pledge of alligence, were added during the era of rampant McCarthyism in the 1950’s and 1960’s…they have NOTHING to do with the founding fathers. Besides, Jefferson was an atheist and many of the others were deists. For the record, deism is the belief that there is a creator who simply stepped aside after the creation…no prophesies, no hymns, no speaking to people, no NOTHIN’. JUST a creation. Deists believe that there is no point in praying because the creator either doesnt care or isnt listening, so PLEASE don’t try to tell me that “deist = christian”.
Scott
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
oh and p.s.
Go Vermecelli! Excellent research, excellent points and excelent presentation! You seem to be the type who takes no prisoners and offers no quarter. We need more folks like you.
Scott
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Dr. Cruel wildly extrapolates what the founding fathers MEANT to say as much as the Christians seem to know what parts of the Bible they can ignore. Call me old fashioned, but I think I’ll just stick with what the document in fact says and not argue whether or not the F.F.s were Christians, deists (they mostly were) or agnostics. Oh, and it’s also obvious that Thomas Jefferson was a closet pastafarian.
.
RAmen
.
PS – Thank you, Dr. Cruel for posting in a well-written form. It appears your PhD may be in English and not in American History.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” -John Adams from ‘Treaty of Tripoly, article 11′
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” -Thomas Jefferson from ‘Notes on Virginia’
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” -George Washington from the Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.” -Benjamin Franklin
Sorry I don’t have the source for the last one. But you can look the rest up independently. Just a suggestion…. Actually do research before you go spouting off bullshit you hear out of the mouth of a politician with his hands in oil profits, and preachers in the pulpits on this forum. There are intelligent people here. I don’t know if you ever heard this saying, but you can’t bullshit a bullshitter. I know that shit when I smell it.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
The country was not based on Christian principles, and the only mention of God and religion in the constitution is negative–e.g. giving it no official power. The declaration of independence mentions a “creator” but most of the authors were Deists which is about as far away from a Christian as you can get without actually calling yourself an atheist. Furthermore the declaration of independence isn’t even a legal document. It predates the very existence of the United States.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Reccomended reading for anyone who is interested in broadening their knowledge base regarding American history: James Lowen’s books “Lies My Teacher Told Me” and “Sundown Towns”, and Howard Zinn’s “A People’s History of the United States”. All three are exhaustively researched, well written, and have extensive bibliographies. Very eye-opening.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I must ring in here….
About McCain being a douche (with or without the bag)
John McCain is a politician – nuff said.
As to the election and why John is winning. A Scottish friend of mind questioned me about the very thing. He asked;
Ay mate, I see you got one canidate who’s a royal bitch and married to a lawyer. And you’ve got another lawyer married to a bitch.
Now across the isle you got an old fella married to a hot chick that happens to own a brewery.
Why do you go on debating?
Anyway, what were we talking about?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were all atheists or deists (Just to name a few). They wrote the first amendment separating church and state. And many of the philisophes heavily influence the founding fathers, read John Locke, the declaration of independence was practically a copy of his book the social contract, Rousseau and Voltaire were good friends with Benjamin Franklin. I would imagine that the separation of church and state they all agreed upon was just a fluke? No where in the constitution is religion mentioned aside from prohibiting it’s influence in government ex: “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” or “Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion or that prohibit free exercise of religion, or laws that infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to peaceably assemble, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Aren’t you Atheists just as guilty of pushing your beliefs on others as Christians are?
But unlike Atheists, Christians also run all kinds of soup kitchens and other types of charitable organizations that try to make the world a better place.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
But McCain IS a douche.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Mcain is not a douche, despite evidence supporting it. he is on fact, a tampon. case closed:D
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I am a realistic pastafarian.
Let’s face it: the country is majority Christian.
No Christianity, no election win. Period.
How is Obama less pandering to these idiots than McCain?
As a Libertarian, none of these guys appeal to me.
It is sad watching “pastafarians” taking sides this way.
We are supposed to be better than the others.
Why are we acting just like them???
This comes from The Gospel, page 78, verse 2.
“I’d Really Rather You Didn’t”… BE MEAN TO PEOPLE YOU DON’T AGREE WITH.
McCain is not a bad guy.
He may be misguided.
Do you not think Obama has his own misguided policies?
Captain Morgan is telling me, after many shots this night, that they are both a little correct and a lot incorrect.
Arrgh, how to choose.
I went to college and got a low paying job.
But I torqued my college time for max learning.
So I moved up, while my mates wallowed.
Now I am making it (not CEO level), but hope to move up.
The Dem thought process is that if I make more, the government takes more.
I do not like that idea.
Being on the cusp of losing all of my deductions (AMT), I will decline a promotion.
The dumber guy then becomes my boss.
How is that good for America?
Lab_rat
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Interestingly, the fact that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers and Third President of the United States was co-author for the ‘Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom’ in which he argues that the concept of compulsory religion is wrong, shows that already at that time in American history, there was no consensus at all about the role Christianity should play in American law. Because of the role of the Founders in American independance of the British monarchy, which was of Christian nature, and because of the efforts that were undertaken at that time to separate church and state, resulting in the first amendment, it should be investigated whether some of the Founders could have been enlighted by the FSM and were in fact Pastafarians in disguise…
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Uhm, actually there was a consensus, and this led to the first amendment.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
HA! I call the person who wrote the response a douche for trying to sound all philosophical and intelligent about religion and ending up looking like a retard for misspelling Philosophy. You sir or ma’am are a Douche Bag extrodinaire for trying to pose as someone who thinks they know religion.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I’m currently in italy, and it’s quite interesting to find out that the fight over the seperation of church and state has been going on far longer than the creation of the american government. The Guelphs and the Ghibelines fought over this during the medievil times. Honestly, I dont care if I have a christain for a president. I only want a president that allows me to believe in what I want to believe. If McCaine does force his beliefs on the people then he truly is a douchebag. Seperation of church and state is imperative in a nation that is as diverse as this one.
Now, I have a beer to tend to.
RAmen
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
My god’s better than your god because my book’s older than your book. That’s why I’m a Hindu baby. Texts back to 1500 B.C. It must be right — after all what could possibly have been learned since then that’s of any value? ;)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
orgainzed religion will be the downfall of humanity
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
@Papa Georgio
“Aren’t you Atheists just as guilty of pushing your beliefs on others as Christians are?
But unlike Atheists, Christians also run all kinds of soup kitchens and other types of charitable organizations that try to make the world a better place.”
.
Umm…….NO.
.
I’ve never had an atheist knock on my door to try to talk me out of religion.
.
Never been handed an atheist tract
.
Never heard of an atheist trying to have “In No God We Trust” printed on the currency.
.
Never seen an atheist televangelist begging for money to de-convert the starving children in Africa.
.
And about the charitable organizations – the atheists I know are MORE socially conscious than most christians. They tend to be MORE focused on taking care of other people, not less, since no god is going to do it for us. They just aren’t as boastful about it.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
“Aren’t you Atheists just as guilty of pushing your beliefs on others as Christians are? But unlike Atheists, Christians also run all kinds of soup kitchens and other types of charitable organizations that try to make the world a better place.”
Really? Really? You want to pull the Christian/Catholic vs Atheist humanitarian issues out. You USE the vale of charity to push your believes onto others. Oh and by the way from all reports Bill Gates is an Atheist. He no longer runs Microsoft and runs the WORLDS largest charity giving away Billions each year developing programs which actually may save whole populations and countries rather then band-aid solutions for PR and pumping religious ideas onto the sick, weak and poor.
Run along now.
Oh and BTW it’s FSM not atheism. Wrong forums
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
@Papa Georgio
If you care to pay a slight bit of attention, you might notice that many, if not most, of the people who contribute replies to that hate mail that xians spew out with disconcerting regualrity are agnostic, not atheist. The terms are not interchangeable. And no, these people do not push their beliefs on others like xians. Neither Pastafarians nor agnostics are evangelical. Nor, as far as I am aware, are atheists. We/they don’t seek out xian websites to damn the readers and deride their beliefs. We/they don’t go door to door trying to convince people that if they don’t sign up with us they’ll spend eternity suffering horribly. On the other hand, there are numerous secular organizations that run soup kitchens, homeless shelters, fuel assistance agencies, etc. And you don’t see nearly as many stories about the higher-ups in these secular organizations sexually abusing their youngest members as you see about the xian clergy. Don’t try to tell me that the church has exclusive rights to helping people, that’s a load of crap. I spent nearly fifteen years helping people with home construction, home improvements, fuel assistance, fundraising, etc., and never once had anything to do with any church.
ET
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
It’s embarrassing watching and listening to presidential hopefulls that have to ‘brown-nose’ themselves to the churches. The best thing that could happen to America is the election of a logical, sensible, reasonable and rational atheist or pirate. Voters must remember what they see and hear is nothing like candidates talk behind closed doors. I can’t vote, but if I could I would never vote for this prat.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Hey Chris, Half of my family is Hindu the other half practices Santeria. Im still an Atheist and I would never put them down and tell them that my belief is the right one. Oh, and the FSM will always be cooler than your god.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
i don’t know if i read this correctly,but if i did you must be an 11 year old retard with no knowledge at all about this country.(the sad thing is,i’m not lieing.) for one. the founding fathers were strongly against building a nation off of a religion, and according to most of the historical documents most of the founding fathers of the U.S.A. were atheists.and here is an example. if they were strong beliving christians don’t you think that the first ammedment might be something other than “seperation from state and religion”? hmmmmmm but again, i don’t know if i read it right, and i didn’t read it all yet sooo…
-d man
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I think that FSM is just as valaid as all the other religions. I mean a trinity god who impregnated some random virgin and she therefore gave birth to some mangod who, died, arose and ascended into heaven… Yeah THAT sound plausible (oh and for all you christians, that is called sarcasm… memorise it.) and surely if god made mary pregnant he must have took her virginity… But anyway, please don’t spread hate in the name of richeousness and justice because that not only demeans you and your religion but it also gets your god pissed. If he’s there. If we all live right, help each other and respect each other surely none of the gods would be annoyed, but then religion is just an excuse for war. I’m atheist, a Pasifist and proud. I respect everyone for their beliefs and I aim to hurt no one with mine. If adults can’t learn that yet a 15 year old can I have lost all hope and faith in humanity, and I really hope for your sakes that there is no god because hatrid and intolerance are not what he stands for and they are what you stand for, so you are false prophets and condemned by your own beliefs…
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
@EvolvedApe,
For a million dollars in Bull shit… I know a girl who is planning on voting for McCaine only because she wants to vote against Obama. I can Vote and I dont believe either one of the two so I most definitley feel you on the not voting for McCaine vibe. May his noodly appendage be with you.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
i dont think people should take this seriously, it is funny and is a good response of creationism. im catolic too but i dont take every world of the bible seriously. most of it is bullsh*t just like the FSM, but its good to laugh about it.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Christians always resort to their tempers when it comes to separation of church and state… They wouldnt be so happy if it were some other religion… like Islam or Pastafarianism being the dominant.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I personally believe that buiding America on christian principles was actually a bad Idea…
…Take for example the witch-hunts where hundreds of thousands of christians were killed because of the superstition of witches and wizards existing and plaguing mankind all because witches were mentioned in the bible…
…I believe that the UK and the USA became the two fair nations they are today by embracing freedom of belief and opinion and the FSM is the perfect example of that even…mocking it slightly!
FSM FTW!!!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
One of the most common characteristics of any organized religion is to offer love, salvation, forgiveness, etc to group members. But if you are outside the group, you are excluded. If you are outside the group and are a witch, well, the eleventh commandment dictates that believers in the Judeo-Xtain god are not “to suffer a witch to live”. If you are a Mohammadin, then Urban II can authorize a crusade against you, and you can be slaughtered on the streets of your home town, if that town happens to be Jewrusalem, and your blood can literally run knee deep in the streets.
In short “Love One Another” does not and was never meant to be inclusive of all human beings, but only those who are included in the circle of believers.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Founded as a Christian nation? No. Not at all. Our founding fathers were mostly deists.
Most notably: Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine/
Also of interest is the fact that George Washington never declared his Christianity (or any religious beliefs) publicly. If someone asked him, he would ignore the question and continue moving along. He also promoted a Chaplain who did not believe in Hell despite the protests of the other “Christian” Chaplains.
I’ll leave you with this:
“The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word ‘Jesus Christ,’ so that it should read, ‘a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;’ the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindu, and Infidel of every denomination.”
–The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Volume 1, p.66-p.67
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
While the US was founded by Christians, it was founded with the clear intention that religion should be separated from politics. That is why we have, in our constitution, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Uh, the founding fathers most certainly did NOT found this nation as a Christian nation. How many of the founding fathers do you think were actually Christian?
Thomas Jefferson was a great atheist, and the majority of the founding fathers probably were too.
Quoting Jefferson, “Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man” proves that. On top of many of the leaders being atheists, the rest were likely to be deists, all of the shared a common idea: secularism.
John Adams and James Madison are other ones who were opposed to religion.
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.” – James Madison
“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if the were no religions in it.” – John Adams
(To Thomas Jefferson in a letter)”I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!” – John Adams
“Lighthouses are more useful than churches.” – Benjamin Franklin
As you can see, it is complete ignorance to think that a secular nation was founded to become a Christian nation. It is a mistake to believe so, and if you continue to believe that silly idea, you are a fool.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
The Founding Fathers were not Christians, the were Deists. This means they believed that the universe may have been created by a divine being, but he had no further involvement in it. Jefferson in particular rejected the virgin birth, the resurrection, and all of the other miracles described in the bible. No personal god. No answered prayers. Hardly the Christian leader that modern evangelicals want him to be. He used the phrase “separation of church and state” in correspondence with friends. He even published an edited version of the bible, the “Jefferson Bible” to reflect his beliefs. Certainly not a bible literalist as the like the modern sort. If you would take the time to research the actual attitudes of the Founders, instead of repeating the dogmatic teachings of others you would see that I am right.
No, McCain is not a douche for expressing a simple fact. He didn’t express a fact, he expressed an opinion. An opinion _contrary_ to the simple facts. He’s a douche for sucking up to the religious right.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Yeah.. Ben Franklin who boned the queen of France and was one of the most important scientists of his day certainly thought the bible was totally right word for word, and Jefferson who had many kids with his slave, yeah… those guys weren’t fighting the establishment at all.
The whole “freedom of religion, free speech, and separation of church and state” thing being the FIRST thing they decided as a basic human right… clearly means they thought everyone had to be Christian… it’s all so clear to me now (hey I have an idea, try reading the constitution you tool).
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Dear Dr. Clueless:
Declaration of Independance? Philosophes? What exactly are you a doctor of? Just a hunch, not English…
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
He’s not a douche! He’s a douche nozzle, the plastic screw-on piece that enables the douche to work.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
For your information, doctor, a lot of the founding fathers were atheist.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0