In response to this post, where I called McCain a douche.
Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation. To the Founding Fathers, this would have gone witout saying – and it is quite clearly the case from the language they used throughout documents of the period, including the Declaration of Independance.
It was also true, however, that by this time in history the hold of Christianity had been greatly weakened, especially amongst those that followed the ideas of the philosophes. The American intellectuals of the day were keen to find the hand of the Christian God in nature, and considered the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same. Thus they considered the nature of God to be knowable by observation and personal reflection, and were so thoroughly disgusted by the European wars in the pursuit of one or another version of the Christian God’s word that they incorporated into the US Constitution an amendment making lawful the free expression of a person’s faith, whatsoever it may be.
McCain is not a “douche” for expressing a simple fact. Likewise, I suspect those who are so adamant about pressing home the freedoms of expression and religious choice as outlined in the first amendment would not be so nearly as enthusiastic in defending the freedoms expressed in the second – consider that just a hunch. Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
-DrCruel
Mwaaaa… grammar! So rare on non-Pastafarian posts!
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The only reason that Douche bag is winning is because he is Christian, and white. He is useing religion to gain a foothold in the election, and that is the lowest way to gain power out there. I’m Canadian so I shouldn’t realy care who wins, but if another “Bush” gets into office, it will very literaly be the end of the world as we know it.
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The Founding Fathers would have been big enough men to admit the err of their ways. Surely they would, today, accept the incontrovertible evidence of His Noodliness’ existence and convert to Pastafarianism. I suggest you do the same, then you might be as boring.
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What if we called him a prig? Would that be alright? How ’bout pandering shithead?
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No DrCruel, my motivation, as I said in reply to Senator McDouche, was the United States Constitution. Specifically, the First Amendment, which protects your right to spew out whatever drivel you choose to defend said McDouche. And which, BTW, contains–and rightly so–no references to Christianity, Jesus, Moses, the Ten Commandments, the Old Testament, the New Testament, Noah’s Ark, loaves and fishes, salt pillars, killing giants with slings, or Charlton Heston for that matter. It is the product of the collective wisdom of the Founding Fathers, and remains one of the singular documents in the history of Western Civilization. It is the basis for the U.S.’ way of life, and it has worked remarkably well since its inception…unless, of course the Founding Fathers were wrong.
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So how about it, DrCruel? Do YOU think that Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, and all the rest who you owe your freedom and livelihood to…were WRONG???
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“On criteria for choosing a president:
“I think the #1 issue … the people should make a selection on the President of the United States is will the person carry on in the Judeo Christian tradition that has made this nation the greatest experiment in the history of mankind. “”
“McCain is not a “douche” for expressing a simple fact. Likewise, I suspect those who are so adamant about pressing home the freedoms of expression and religious choice as outlined in the first amendment would not be so nearly as enthusiastic in defending the freedoms expressed in the second – consider that just a hunch. Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
-DrCruel ”
This is not a simple fact. It is spin. Speechwriters cloud opinion in tradition and simple fact in order to spin phrases. This opinion sounds scary to me. It says “vote christian” in a big loud voice. This opinion seems to imply favouritism contrary to some of those amendments. I’d want to investigate anyone’s motives for bringing religion into political debate. It’s completely inappropriate.
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I am not sure how I missed the McCain-is-a-douche post. Like henderob and DrCruel, I also think McCain is a douche. Thanks for pointing it out!
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“To the Founding Fathers, this would have gone witout saying – and it is quite clearly the case from the language they used throughout documents of the period, including the Declaration of Independance.”
LOL
It’s clearly the case that they went without saying it! They made one generic mention of the creator in the declaration, and didn’t mention is at all in the constitution.
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OK, ever heard of Thomas Paine, the author of The Rights of Man, and The Age of Reason, who said that his mind was his own church?
How about Thomas Jefferson, who coined the phrase “Wall of Separation” between the church and state?
How about that secular document that refers to the people, not a deity, as the source of authority, and adds that there shall be no religious test for office?
A Christian Nation in mind…is what they must have had in mind when they wrote: “Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”?
Need I go on?
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You fail, Drcruel. McCain is a douche and so are you. Go read the documents you mentioned. Then, if you still think the US was founded as a christian nation, I will be more than happy to let you know that you are also a moron.
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Alert: Louisiana Coalition for Science is calling for urgent help nationwide.
From Pharyngula
“Urgent: Call Louisiana, their science is getting away!”
Barbara Forrest:
“We in the LA Coalition for Science have reached the point at which the only possible measure we have left is to raise an outcry from around the country that Gov. Jindal has to hear. What is happening in Louisiana has national implications, much to the delight of the Discovery Institute, which is blogging the daylights out of the Louisiana situation.”
Open Letter to Gov. Bobby Jindal: Veto SB 733
Press Release (pdf) — LA Coalition for Science, June 16, 2008
The LA Coalition for Science invites all concerned citizens to join us in asking Gov. Jindal to veto SB 733.
E-mail: http://www.gov.la.gov/index.cfm?md=form&tmp=email_governor
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DrCruel,
Whatever your opinion may be about the foundations of this country, it was not established as a christian nation. The lack of the word “God” in the Constitution is evidence of this. It was because of Deists like Jefferson that we have a completely secular document which governs us, and although you may wish to “look at the language” of the Constitution, your argument is without merit. I don’t see how anything in the Preamble of the Constitution corresponds to anything Christian, though you’re welcome to point out where I’m wrong.
I also doubt that you even know the language of the 2nd amendment. “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” While I’m not going to debate this issue, and I personally believe in the right of an individual to own a firearm, this statement is not cut-and-dry. It states that the right to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed, for a militia… it does not EXPLICITLY give everyone the right to keep and bare any arms for any reason. While you may make that argument, it’s not in the text
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PS. McCain’s a Douche.
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The second amendment stipulates that in the context of a well regulated militia, the congress shall not abridge the right to keep and bear arms. Somehow all the gun nuts forget about the fact that the amendment was about allowing citizens who were members of state militias to keep and bear arms.
Any of those militias, which were the equivalent of armies raised by the individual states in existence today? Of course not. To then argue that the amendment conveys the right for any citizen to bear any arm with no regulation (note that even militias were to be “well regulated” within the language of the original amendment) is to just flat out misread the amendment. Moreover, supreme court case law supports the interpretation I have just outlined.
BTW, you are educated enough to know about the French Philosophes, so you should be educated enough to know that many of the founding fathers, among them Jefferson, Madison, and John Adams just flat out did not believe in the Xtain god, and those individuals were the most influential in the authorship of the constitution. So when you presume that we are a Xtain nation and all the rest of us nonbelievers are just “guests” in our own country who should step lightly to avoid offending Xtains, the real Americans, you once again distort our Intellectual History to support your own lame, self-serving piggish end.
And I for one, as an atheist, will not accept second class citizenship within my own country when it has been guaranteed to me by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison for over 225 years.
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Btw, most of the founding fathers were Deists, not Xtains, and they believed they would learn more about the nature of their creator by studying creation, that’s quite a difference from saying they “were keen to find the hand of the Christian God in nature.” Your shift has not gone unnoticed!
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[citation needed]
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What kind of argument is the language of that time? The Declaration itself mentions “merciless Indian Savages” and I don’t find that particularly exemplary of the current ideal nature of this nation. The rest of the Declaration speaks in mainly philosophical terms, not Christian terms. Other than “Nature’s God,” there is little to support a Christian nation. Sure, the nation may have been founded _by_ Christians, but the first amendment says “no way.” Try citing something next time.
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And what is your intention of the comparison of the first and second amendments? I find it unrelated to the argument that the nation is a Christian nation, unless you are suggesting that people should pursue the full execution, or perhaps the partial execution, of all the amendments equally. Do you mean that since people don’t fully support the second amendment, they shouldn’t fully support the first amendment, and therefore the nation should be considered Christian? Explain next time.
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The Declaration and other documents of the time are flawed and shouldn’t be followed to the word, be that word Christian in nature or not. The amendments are proof of this; they should be seen as corrections, not merely additions or changes. Note this next time.
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I’m not a big supporter of calling people douches, but calling McCain a douche isn’t exclusively political. He’s practically a proven jackass, “tried and true” as the Founding Fathers might say, and that’s why he has been called a douche. Note this next time.
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I hope this isnt someone who also calls themselves a pastafarian…
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Ye be so right, Dr. Cruel, that be why they put “God” in every American document, rather then referring to `im in obscure ways, like “Creator”.
Truth be, Dr. Cruel, that the Foundin’ Fathers be Pastafarians, which is why they talk that way.
“We hold these truths to be self-evvident. That arr Pirates be created equal, and are endowed by their Creator (whom we now know to be The Noodly One) with certain inalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of booty.”
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Actually, some research will show that a large portion of the nations founding fathers were deist. While the term god was indeed used, god merely means a deity. Any object of worship whether that be Christian or otherwise, monotheistic or spiritualistic. I would like to know where you managed to get the idea that this was founded as a Christian nation, especially being that the nation was partially created for the purpose of religious freedom. The US was never intended as a Christian safe-haven-it was a place where people who wished to live their lives in the best way, as they saw it, could do so without interference from the law.
Nobody has the right to tell somebody they may not do something or live their life in a manner simply because their religion forbids it. Don’t condemn other religions and lifestyles simply because you fail to understand them. Much of McCain’s political base revolves around religion-not logic.
Our country was founded by deists-people who believe that while god may or may not exist, in whatever form you wish to call it-this is the world of man. Deists believe that the greatest gift to man was not religion, but instead reason.
The only thing that separates you from the sewer rats is your brain. Stop blindly following and start thinking.
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One MAJOR, GAPING hole in your argument.
They were Deists, NOT Christians.
So, America was not founded as a Christian nation.
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He’s a douche…
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I would direct you all to watch ZEITGEIST. After that you would never dream of voting McCain.
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Not one place in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution is it stated that the USA should be a Christian country, not one place, the founding fathers knew better than to contradict the laws that they established. As for the mentions of God in those and other such documents, I would like to believe that more than the mantras of faith and dogma surrounding Christianity, the founding fathers were concerned with the positive moral guidelines that the Bible mentions. Also, because they were most likely Christian, they used what they were familiar with, (you probably wouldn’t use Middle Eastern philosophy in an ethics discussion if you didn’t know anything regarding Middle Eastern philosophy, would you?) but once again they did not ever say “Jesus saves” or “O Holy art thou Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”, such as could directly denote any direct reference to Christianity. Additionally, being as the Bible would have been the most commonly read book in the (admittedly) predominantly Christian populous of the early years of the Union, using such rhetoric would more greatly appeal to the people (the original goal of democracy, in case anyone forgot), also adding an additional unifying factor to the turbulent times of the fledgling nation. But I digress, the reason that McCain’s statements are “douche”-ish is because those statements show an unbelievable stubbornness and ignorance to the thing that makes this country great, diversity. To simply assume that because you believe that your religion is right and all others should adhere to those beliefs is inexcusable, considering the fact that all races, nations, creeds, and (especially) beliefs, are supposed to be accepted (or at least tolerated) and valued as equal. Also, McCain’s stated that the next president should continue the tradition of Judeo-Christian moral foundation and yet 1.between affairs, deception, and corruption, these supposed “Judeo-Christian morals” do not seem to hold particular sway in the White House and 2. the fundamental morals that McCain was referring to are not necessarily only in Judeo-Christian, but also Muslim, Buddhist, Pastafarian, or any number of other religions, the only difference is the narrow mindedness and blind stubbornness of Christians towards other religions. Therefore, it is not the facts that make McCain come across as “douche”-ish, but the pure ignorant bluntness of the statements that those facts are being used to justify.
Ramen
One more thing, the second amendment rocks, in fact, bearing arms and maintaining a well established militia could be considered a form of free expression, making it an extension of the first amendment in some ways.
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Your founding fathers were by and large deists, as many have said here. Look ‘deist’ up in Wiki. If there’s one thing all deists agree on, it is that god does not interfere in his creation. So leave him out of politics, as was originally intended.
Have you ever wondered why Benjamin Franklin didn’t get fried when he flew his kite in a thunderstorm? Did god protect him? No, It was the FSM who dangled his noodly appendage and grounded the charge.
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Does anyone use the word “thus” in sentences anymore? It seems so old fashioned and gives me the sneaking suspicion this guy cut and paste someone else’s opinion. He also did a bad job of it. Also, a Christian called Dr.Cruel? That’s comedic.
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Ron Paul for Prez!
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Thomas Jefferson Quotes:
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Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
* Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law (1764). Published in The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes, Federal Edition, Paul Leicester Ford, ed., New York: G. P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904, Vol. 1, p. 459.
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I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
* Letter to Elbridge Gerry (1799)
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History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
* Letter to Alexander von Humboldt (Dec. 6, 1813)
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While it is true that a few of the founding fathers wished for references to Jesus Christ, the majority, Jefferson included, had successfully fought the battle against it. Most assuredly they saw the logical conclusion of that legislation which was that they would be creating a type of government which they, themselves, fought to be free from.
[T]he Pennsylvania legislature, who, on a proposition to make the belief in God a necessary qualification for office, rejected it by a great majority, although assuredly there was not a single atheist in their body. And you remember to have heard, that when the act for religious freedom was before the Virginia Assembly, a motion to insert the name of Jesus Christ before the phrase, “the author of our holy religion,” which stood in the bill, was rejected, although that was the creed of a great majority of them.
* Letter to Albert Gallatin (June 16, 1817). Published in The Works of Thomas Jefferson in Twelve Volumes, Federal Edition, Paul Leicester Ford, ed., New York: G. P. Putnam’s Sons, 1904, Vol. 12, p. 73.
Just because most were christians, doesn’t mean that they wished for christianity to become the defacto religion. In fact, most of the founding fathers understood what a religion infused government could become and created that seperation to assure that it would never be.
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Ever seen this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli
Look up Article 11.
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Dr. Cruel -
Not sure which history book you’re reading, but to lump all the Founding Fathers (I bet you can’t name three of them) into one religious brand name is so naive. You say (as does McSame) that they were “Christian,” but that term, even back in the 18th century, is extremely broad in its scope. If anything, many of them could qualify as Transcendentalists, some were Anglican, etc. etc. Surprisingly, there’s even a few closet agnostics among them. To think that you can drop in on the Church of the FSM and make sweeping claims about the religious ideologies of the Founding Fathers without considering the company you’re in, and how well-read on the subject of the religiosity of the Founding Fathers many of us are, is again, very naive. Next time, before you enter a den of wolves, make sure you know what a wolf is.
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Epic Fail…….
If you make claims with little basis in reality and even offer nonexistent evidence you can be dismissed out of hand. If only the majority of people were interested in logic and rational thought more than mindless propaganda.
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Show me where it says “Jesus Christ” in our constitution….
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Treaty of Tripoli, article 11:
“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion – as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen…”
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Thomas Jefferson- 3rd president, Drafted Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution, influential on 1st Amendment: “I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
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James Madison- 4th president, influential in the Constitutional Convention, Proposed the 1st Amendment : “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” [April 1, 1774]
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Benjamin Franklin- signer of Declaration of Independence, signer of Constitution: “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
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The founding fathers unanimously approved a treaty in 1797, one of the articles of which said explicitly “As the Government of United States is not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian religion”
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While I disagree with your some of your interpretations. The fact that you provided a calm and intelligent response is a welcome change compared to the standard factless and rude bits that this site recieves every day.
I still think McCain is a douch. The fact that he blantly and strongly repeats what he says almost certainly has political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
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America was established as a Christian nation, it says it right there in the Establishment Clause and the 1st amendment.
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It is clear from the lack of misspelled words and mutilated grammar that DrCruel is unusual – almost unique – among xian users of the internet. Consequently his assertions may seem plausible to the average reader. A few minutes of research, however, can do amazing things to someone’s credibility. Here are a few quotes from some of the “founding fathers” that refute DrCruel’s claims (and McCain’s as well):
George Washington:
“I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country.”
– George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the “Magna-Charta” here refers to the proposed United States Constitution.
“We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition … In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”
– George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793, in Anson Phelps Stokes, Church and State in the United States, Vol 1. p. 497.
“Unlike Thomas Jefferson–and Thomas Paine, for that matter–Washington never even got around to recording his belief that Christ was a great ethical teacher. His reticence on the subject was truly remarkable. Washington frequently alluded to Providence in his private correspondence. But the name of Christ, in any correspondence whatsoever, does not appear anywhere in his many letters to friends and associates throughout his life.”
–Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 74-75.
Thomas Jefferson:
“Thomas Jefferson proposed this language [for the new Virginia constitution]: ‘All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution.’ In other words, freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion.”
–Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 38.
“I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor. ”
–Thomas Jefferson, notes for a speech, c. 1776. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 498.
James Madison:
“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
–James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822; published in The Complete Madison: His Basic Writings, ed. by Saul K. Padover, New York: Harper & Bros., 1953.
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect.”
–James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774, as quoted by Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 37.
John Adams:
“We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions … shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power … we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”
–John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, as quoted by Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, p. 1.
“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses…. ”
–John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” [1787-1788]; from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 258.
**Notice also his implicit acknowledgement of the States as separate sovereign entities in the above quotation.**
Benjamin Franklin:
“Benjamin Franklin drank deep of the Protestant ethic and then, discomforted by church constraints, became a freethinker. All his life he kept Sundays free for reading, but would visit any church to hear a great speaker, no doubt recognizing a talent he himself did not possess. With typical honesty and humor he wrote out his creed in 1790, the year he died: ‘I believe in one God, Creator of the universe…. That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children…. As to Jesus … I have … some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.’”
–Alice J. Hall, “Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin,” National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.
Thomas Paine:
“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”
–Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794-1795. From Paul Blanshard, ed., Classics of Free Thought, Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1977, pp. 134-135.
“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.”
Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794-1795. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 494.
Some other facts about religion in American government-
“E PLURIBUS UNUM … is the Latin motto on the face of the Great Seal of the United States; …. This phrase means one out of the many. It refers to the creation of one nation, the United States, out of 13 colonies. It is equally appropriate to today’s federal system. Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson, members of the first committee for the selection of the seal, suggested the motto in 1776. It can be traced back to Horace’s Epistles [65-8 BCE]. Since 1873, the law requires that this motto appear on one side of every United States coin that is minted.”
–Donald H. Mugridge,World Book Encyclopedia, Volume 6 (E), Chicago: Field Enterprises Educational Corporation, 1976, p.2. “E Pluribus Unum” has appeared on most U. S. coins, beginning in the late 1790s. The motto “In God We Trust” did not appear on any U. S. coin until 1864, when “Its presence on the new coin was due largely to the increased religious sentiment during the Civil War Crisis,” according to R. S. Yeoman, A Guide Book of United States Coins, 38th ed., Racine, Wisc.: Western Publishing Co., p. 89. The religious motto did not appear regularly on U. S. paper money until the 1950s.
“Many of the states, in the period between the Revolution and the adoption of the U. S. Constitution, in order to obviate any suggestion of a religious establishment, prohibited all clergymen from sitting in the legislation.”
–Gordon S, Wood, The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787, New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1972 [orig. publ. 1969], pp. 158-159 [footnote]. Wood cites the state constitutions of Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, New York, South Carolina, and New Hampshire.
“In the eighteenth century the American principle of separation of Church and State was indeed an audacious experiment. Never before had a national state been prepared to dispense with an official religion as a prop to its authority and never before had a church been set adrift without the support of the state. Throughout most of American history the doctrine has provided freedom for religious development while keeping politics free of religion. And that, apparently, had been the intention of the Founding Fathers.”
–Carl N. Degler, Out of Our Past: The Forces That Shaped Modern America [Revised ed.], New York: Harper & Row, 1970, p. 96.
“The group which, along with Calvinist Congregationalists, made the greatest contribution to American cultural and political development was one that in 1787 could be called religious only by a most generous definition of the term. Variously called deists, humanists, and rationalists, they accepted the existence of God so long as He kept His hands out of human affairs. Strongly anti-clerical, they were at best indifferent to organized religion. One indication of their influence on the course of American development is the fact that none of the first seven Presidents was at the time of his election a member of any church, and, perhaps even more important, that the two basic documents of American freedom, the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights, breathe the spirit of deistic humanism.”
–Leo Pfeffer, God, Caesar and the Constitution: The Court as Referee of Church-State Confrontation, Boston: Beacon Press, 1975, pp. 7-8.
“The delegates to the Constitutional Convention [in 1787] took … only two modest steps with respect to religion, both of these being designed to avert problems, not raise them. First, the delegates agreed that “no religious test” should ever be required of federal officeholders, and, second, that one could “affirm” rather than “swear” in taking the oath of office–a clear concession to the tender consciences of Quakers. Other than that, however, the Constitution was totally silent on the subject of religion: no national church, of course, but no national affirmations of faith, either, not even those of the most generalized sort.”
–Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 43.
“If we glance back at our early history, the reasons for placing religious freedom in the First Amendment may become clearer. The quest for that freedom was one of the motives for emigration to America, but not just for those who wanted to be free to practice their own faith. A surprising majority of colonial Americans were not part of any religious community. Even in New England, research shows, not more than one person in seven was a church member. It was one in fifteen in the middle colonies and fewer still in the South, according to the historian Richard Hofstadter.”
–Milton Meltzer, The Bill of Rights: How We Got It and What It Means, New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1990, p. 71.
There are innumerable other examples; these were gathered up with minimal effort on my part. It seems obvious to me that DrCruel has not done even the most cursory research to justify his claims, but rather is simply repeating the unfounded claim of fundamentalist xians across America, that the Constitution was written in church. The evidence is explicit that the founding fathers did NOT “find the hand of the Christian God in nature”. Those who saw the hand of a deity clearly indicate that their concept was devoid of any connection to any organized religion. McCain was most emphatically not expressing a “simple fact”; he was pandering to a particular segment of society, one that perceives itself as morally superior to the rest of the world. Until that segment of society begins to practice what it preaches (love of all humanity, tolerance of difference, help the needy, etc., etc.) instead of scurrying from war to war in support of corporate profits, they will have my complete and utter scorn. And McCain and his ilk will not have any respect from me regarding their political positions or aspirations.
RAmen
ET
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Let us not call someone a douche, for a douche cleanses the loveliest of physical instruments of flesh which many of us, male and female, love to sup. (I realize it’s seldom necessary, as external cleansing is usually sufficient, but it’s so much fun to at least imagine, n’est pas?) Let us rather simply call someone a “hulking bag of shit.” Arrr
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Founders? You mean these guys:
John Adams- 2nd president, Proposed and signed the Treaty of Tripoli (see below)
“Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years.”
letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins in In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.”
letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
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Thomas Jefferson- 3rd president, Drafted Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution, influential on 1st Amendment
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” [Notes on Virginia]
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes” [Letter to von Humboldt, 1813].
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” [Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823]
“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own” [Letter to H. Spafford, 1814].
“…an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ…the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’” [Jefferson's Biography]
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James Madison- 4th president, influential in the Constitutional Convention, Proposed the 1st Amendment
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” [April 1, 1774]
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Benjamin Franklin- signer of Declaration of Independence, signer of Constitution
“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
[Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758]
“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.” [Franklin's Autobiography]
—–
Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.
——————————————————————————–
Treaty of Tripoli
Annals of Congress, 5th Congress
Article 1. There is a firm and perpetual peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guarantied by the most potent Dey and Regency of Algiers.
…….
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
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- Proxy – Hey guys! Guys! This guy on the net says we can´t call McCain a douche..
- Da Straw – Aaaww… Why can´t I not call McCain douche anymore…
- Mr – Who could be so vicious and write such a thing … Definitely not one who understood the meaning behind freedom of expression
- Proxy – Donno it´s just a ACTNIP (Angry Christian and a totally non important person)
-Mr- Damn you Proxy, I just thought it was important.
- Da Straw – Then can we still call McCain a douche?
- Mr – Sure thing Strawy.
- Da Straw – Yeeaaaaaayay!! McCain’s a Douche!! McCain’s a Douche!! McCain’s a Douche!! McCain’s a Douche!! It makes me so happy to be able to say it again!!
- Mr – Small minds, small pleasures, as they say. . . . .
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“The American intellectuals of the day” were keen to eliminate any religious power in the government. As I stated in a comment to the regarded subject, J. Adams, B. Franklin, T. Jefferson, and J. Madison were deists of their time. An on-again, off-again Christian, G. Washington consistently encouraged separation of church and State in his lifetime. T. Paine, a historically noted inciter of the Revolution with his book, Common Sense, was also an active deist. The first amendment gives you the right to state your own opinion, not your own truth–religious freedom is blatantly specified in the Bill of Rights, therefore, your argument holds no logic.
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It scares the rest of the world shitless that a country with the military power of the USA manages to run so consistently against the established tide of increasing education and intelligence leading to lower reliance on religion and other superstition.
Guys this was all trending the right way until post-Vietnam, the neo conservatives decided that they had to build a harder society to withstand Communism and that investing in fundamental Christianity was the easiest way to do it. How they did that is well documented (at least outside US).
The Commies are gone, so why the problem with getting this brainwashing out of your system? Believing in a creator that pre-existed time or matter is the biggest piece of nonsense that anyone could fall for. After that, believeing that a “war on terror” will do anything other than massively increase terror is easy.
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Excellent critic, and I have to agree on something. The fashion in which you describe the founding fathers is correct if talking about the average character, even amongst them! Good, I said it. However there were many great controversies, amongst them. Whilst there were no atheists and pastaferians among them, there were agnostics. Some of whom held much influence. It was the religious divide amongst these men that inspired the first, and second amendment. However, as their philosophical feelings about democracy were of the utmost importance to them, they were willing to work together to create a democratic country. It is thus very upsetting seeing people describe this country as a Christian nation, if the US were founded today by the men that founded it back then, it would be a country of religious freedom and choice, not a Christian nation.
In regards to Mac and Obama, they are both politicians, flipping and flopping for the show of a lifetime…. If this country would not be at risk during this political conflict I might well enjoy it, however since it is, my advice is this: “Go Independent!” I am no longer willing to vote along party lines for religious, or tax reasons. Either way I will always pay more then I want to. Americans need more choices, and we need them now!
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2 words: Jefferson Bible
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thank you, believer, neal, obsolete, led3234 and anyone else who pointed that out. apparently there are some people around that have opened their eyes and are not completely blind to the world because their bible tells them to be…
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It beggars belief that so many Americans believe that their own country was founded as a Christian nation. It is distubingly ignorant of their own history.
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“Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.”
Of course it has political motivations. HE’S TRYING TO BECOME THE PRESIDENT.
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Greetings from Britain, the land of your founding fathers’ oppressors.
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The way I understand it, the founding fathers all got on the Mayflower because they were being dictated to by a bunch of religious fundamentalists that they could not in all good conscience agree with. When they got to America, they set up a country where religious fundamentalists were not allowed to dictate the way things were run if that was contrary to the will of the people. Isn’t that what all that constitution stuff is about (I wouldn’t know: we haven’t got one)?
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Anyhow, a few points:
1. You don’t assume anything goes without saying in a legal document, you douche.
2. Does ‘the hold of christianity had been greatly weakened’ mean that you could no longer burn people for blasphemy and witchcraft on the basis of circumstantial hearsay evidence? Good!
3. It is indeed easy to find the hand of the christian god in nature – apparently it is nailed to a bit of tree.
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Hi, I’m an education. Have we met? I assume you read your Christian history books to come to this conclusion, but it’s just not the case. I love how the fact that Jefferson mentions a “Creator” in the Declaration leads Christians to believe he was a Christian. Actually, he was Deist, as were most of the founding fathers. Hate to tell ya bud, but there are alot of religions with a creator. Not just Christianity. I realize that confirmation bias is tough to overcome until you receive an education, so I will let it slide.
The problem is that most Christians take confirmation bias to a new level, arrogance. It is incredibly arrogant to think that any mention of god or a creator must be the Christian version, and not the Deist version. Pretty pathetic actually, since you will never have an understanding of history.
I think the Romans had it right, but we are going to need a lot of lions.
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Gotta tell ya.. I love this belief structure.
even more I love the “hate mail” section.
The “pasta haters” that write in here are empirical proof that the education system
in this country is in the toilet and that blind religiously belief to incorrect information is
rampant in this country.
Ya’ll pastafarians rock on, get sauced up and enjoy! There is a new day dawning and
we shall overcome!
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