In response to this post, where I called McCain a douche.
Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation. To the Founding Fathers, this would have gone witout saying – and it is quite clearly the case from the language they used throughout documents of the period, including the Declaration of Independance.
It was also true, however, that by this time in history the hold of Christianity had been greatly weakened, especially amongst those that followed the ideas of the philosophes. The American intellectuals of the day were keen to find the hand of the Christian God in nature, and considered the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same. Thus they considered the nature of God to be knowable by observation and personal reflection, and were so thoroughly disgusted by the European wars in the pursuit of one or another version of the Christian God’s word that they incorporated into the US Constitution an amendment making lawful the free expression of a person’s faith, whatsoever it may be.
McCain is not a “douche” for expressing a simple fact. Likewise, I suspect those who are so adamant about pressing home the freedoms of expression and religious choice as outlined in the first amendment would not be so nearly as enthusiastic in defending the freedoms expressed in the second – consider that just a hunch. Indeed, might I speculate that calling McCain a “douche” might have political rather than philosophical or ethical motivations.
-DrCruel
If you haven’t really noticed nobody on this site actually believes in a Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster. That is probably as ridiculous as believing that a supreme being raped Mary and then lent his son to the world who then performed miracles. Also if this son was so pure then why did he turn water into wine at a wedding? The Bible says that you shouldn’t get drunk but yet Jesus provided more wine for the party. I don’t know for sure but I think that drinking more wine gets you drunker.
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DrCruel,
Read Richard Dawkins novel ‘The God Delusion’, he covers this argument thoroughly.
Oh and your a lying, douche pretending to have some form of intellect while hiding amongst the meek, sheep of the world rather than being yourself, unique or interesting on any level.
With love Dominic
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First, I would like to point out that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were DEISTS, along with Ben Franklin and other founding fathers. You should look up what that means. Second, I would like to point out that they FOUGHT FOR the separation of church and state vehemently. They believed that religion had no place in our laws. AND IT DOESN’T!!! I don’t care what imaginary man you believe is listening when you talk to yourself at night, but keep it to yourself, and out of our laws. I believe that I have the right in this nation to go through life without having your stupid ass christian idea of marriage imposed on me. I believe that I should not have to say “Under God” because I don’t believe it. I believe that I should not have to look at your dumb ten commandments when I go to a government building. I believe that my kids should not have to learn your christian bullshit in public schools when they don’t offer things about my religion (or lack thereof). So keep your shit to yourself and don’t think that I have to follow your rules, because I would rather shoot you than have your dumb religious views imposed on me or ANY other American. I will fight with everything I have against religion in our government. I hope you don’t like it. But religion in government takes away freedom.
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*cough*
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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The Mighty Meatball said
‘If you haven’t really noticed nobody on this site actually believes in a Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster’
Very true. I always imagined Him as kind of small……
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I once read a study done about how different (American) affiliations interpret things. They used the first amendment for one.
Democrats (in this study) interpreted the freedom of religion to mean things like not having a street preacher bothering you while you were on a picnic in the park.
Republicans (again, their definition, their study) interpreted freedom of religion as the right to go out on the street corner and scream to the heavens your love of Gosh.
…I think it’s interesting and insightful. I really should look up that study.
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McCain isn’t a douche. He’s a turd sandwich.
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to begin with, even as an Australian i know that America was NOT founded as a christian nation. the founding fathers of your country were unashamed promoters of secular government, and quite possibly agnostics or atheists themselves. however that is not the point. they believed in the separation of church and state, and the right to believe as you wish. that is the basis of every democratic state, and, particularly relevant in this case, America. Dr Cruel, you are mistaken.
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The Fore fathers of the U.S were Christians as well as racists, and the kind of folk who would tar and feather people who were loyal to Britain….just something to think about
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Is anyone else terrified by McCain’s pick for VP; Sarah Palin? Not only does she want creationism taught in schools, but she apparently taught it herself, as well as wanting to require a ban on ALL abortions, even those caused by rape and incest. This looks bad to me, pastafaces.
Ramen.
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Sara Palin is the WORST VP pick so far. She makes Danny Quayle look like a GENIUS!!! Wonder how she spells potato……..
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Oh, the short sightedness of Republican America! It’s very satisfying to be part of FSM, just for the sheer laughs of reading hate mail. Considering pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same? I think you’ve touched upon the origins of FSM there, you poor victim of right sided HDD. Someone send DrCruel a haiku! He needs it.
Pastafari!
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Apperantly, you’ve never read the Treaty Of Triopoly. This country was NOT founded in your god’s name.
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DRcruel here you go
this nation was founded on
freedom of beliefs
so dont be stupied
theirs my haiku
and haikus are easy
but sometimes they dont make sense
refrigorator
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Mc Cain is NOT a Douchebag!!!! NEITHER is Sara Pailin!!! How DARE you SLANDER the good name of Douchebags like Gilbert Godfried & David Blane by comparing THOSE 2 TURDS to them!!!!!! Douchebags everywhere deserve an apology for this awful slander!!! ^_^
They ARE a remarkable pair though, normally it takes GENERATIONS of Appalachian inbreeding for a candidate to reach THEIR level of stupidity. Their stance on Iraq, Georgia, Abortion, the Economy, Healthcare, all the worst yet. Once they get into office, a secure border with Mexico & Canada will be ESSENTIAL to keep AMERICANS from ESCAPING!!!!
Not only does Dan Quayle look like Einstein in comparison, even PARIS HILTON looks smart as at least she is intelligent enough to REALIZE that she is a moron & compensates accordingly.
Its not that the Democrats are running someone brilliant in Biden, or Obama, its that given a choice between 2 apes & Mc Cain/Palin Id go with Cornelius & Zira before Mc Cain Palin!!!!! After all Dr Zaius was a better science advisor than the current republican “science” the creationists are shoveling piles of into their platform……
I do however understand their lack of concern on the abortion platform as the Minneapolis delegates were all too busty having “Log Cabin” sessions in the Minneapolis Airport bathroom to discuss womens issues……
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One-Eyed Butt the Pirate is correct. Many of the founding fathers were Deists. Hell, Franklin attended Black Mass more than once, so we might argue that he was a Satanist. In any case, even ignoring this consideration and assuming that the founding fathers were all Christian, we should also point out that they were all white men, many of whom held slaves. To extend the logic of the Christian Right activists, this means that our country should be based on white supremacy, male dominance, and continued slavery. One more thing: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” You cannot give any religion special treatment.
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The nation was founded a time when women still used tampons made of hay.
If you’re going to oppose change in the societal faith systems on the grounds that it wasn’t how it used to be, you should give up your car, modern clothes, iPod, central heating, modern medicine…
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“Whatever one might say about what this nation ought to be, the fact is that the nation was established as a Christian nation.”
Wrong. Most of them were deists. Look it up.
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When Dale Carnegie told Mark Twain his opinion that this nation was Christian, Twain answered “so is hell”.
Dr. Cruel, when you said “the pursuit of science and understanding religious truth as one and the same” you hit on the purpose of this
website; to promote the pursuit and teaching of science even when it
contradicts what some people regard as religious “truth” (what IS that,
anyway?). Scientific truth is founded on observations and experimentations. Religious truth is based on…?? Third hand – at best – fables from thousands of years ago?
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“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Oops, my mistake that’s the Constitution. DrCruel mentioned the Declaration of Independence.
“When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation….”
[DrCruel was right! The declaration does mention God; a God of nature no less. However, that is an attribute assigned to almost every deity in recorded history. Nothing specific here about the Christian God. Moving on to the preamble...]
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator…
[ah, here we go: Creator! Well that's a little non specific, isn't it? I mean the action of Creation (capital C) is one that's assigned, again, to most deities, right? Let's move on, shall we?]
…with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
[There's more to the preamble but there's no further references with any deistic attitudes. Let's examine the document in full now. Hmmmm, lots of complaints against King George...here's the conclusion:]
“We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in general congress, assembled, appealing to the supreme judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states….”
[Hmmm, 'Supreme Judge of the World' well I suppose that COULD be deistic in nature, of course it could also indicate that the Founding Fathers were simply making their grievances against the crown internationally know. That is open for interpretation]
So in the whole of the Declaration of Independence we have three possible instances of non-specific deism and one is ambiguous at best. In fact, the only time the word God is mentioned in the whole document is in the introduction, with no inference to a specific religion. The Federalist papers read much the same way, references to a vague God or Creator with no assignment of a particular religion.
The only thing that is “clear” regarding religion in the documents at the time of the founding of the USA is that the founders saw nothing wrong with deism, and belief in a God is A-OK. However, their non-specificity reveals much about their concerns about religion playing a role in the governance of a nation and the NATURAL RIGHT a person had to choose what belief structure that desired.
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America was founded by Deists.
One sentence was all it took to disprove you. Please learn before you try to argue.
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Most of the founding fathers were not Christian. Like most of the other great philosophers of their time they were Deists. They were fully aware of the havoc that religion had wreaked on Europe over the centuries. They understood that the cause was the dogmatic beliefs of the church. They mention the god in the Declaration of Independence, but in a Deist way. They did not believe in the trinity, the divinity of Jesus, or the bible as the absolute word of god. Contemporary philosophy was opposed to theocracy and the constitution reflects their beliefs for the clear separation of church and state.
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Love her.
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Love it!!!
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