I don’t understand why you all hate God. Why don’t you believe He exists? I read in an earlier message that the Bible is filled with historical errors. Actually, it is very historically accurate. Christianity has been around since the beginning of time – it just didn’t have the name Christianity. The belief in God was the very first religion, until man sinned.
-COG
I don’t understand why you all hate God
Published by Bobby Henderson February 24th, 2008 in Hate Mail (and concerned criticism). 362 Comments
362 Responses to “I don’t understand why you all hate God”
Continuing msgypsy’s comment; if you could ask an ancient Egyptian, an African prior to 0 BC, or BCE (before common era, not “Christ”), what religion would they say they follow? If you think its Christianity, or think it is similar to Christianity in principle, you are truly a fool.
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I’m going to respond to the comments that came after my previous comment chronologically.
To The Flying Spaghetti Monster: You may want to do your best omnipotent Elizabeth Montgomery nose wiggle impression, meatball wiggle, or whatever part you use to smell and conjure some glasses because there is some pretty harsh disdain for the creator as defined by Christianity throughout this thread. I’m not going to pose and say that this disdain isn’t reciprocate, but there is one thing that is for sure and it’s not all ‘67 Haight-Ashbury on the red checkered tablecloth of venganza.
Dilly: Yes, we’re fully aware as to the motives of behind the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but now that the point has been made, it seems like the intention behind the continuation of what was once a social commentary delivered through symbolism has now become an icon of provocation and since one of the key targets Anti-Christian advocates is it’s roll in past conflict, there are now shades of hypocrisy which have made their way to the surface.
Runner: Christians, Religious Scholars, and Theologians like myself have always known that Jesus was born around the time of late spring and early summer, because shepherds wouldn’t be moving their herd during winter. The reason Christians chose to celebrate during the winter is because it’s the agricultural downtime. During spring, summer, and some parts of autumn, crop farmers are busy managing their crops, fisherman are out to sea at that time, shepherds are busy moving their herd to prepare for the sheering, livestock farmers are doing the same and people were busy preparing for the winter. So I wouldn’t toot your own horn as if you’ve one up’d Christians because you found out something that we knew 2000 years before you ever knew.
Lastly, you should take your own advice, pal. You’re making some grandiose assumptions about religion when you clearly know very little about that which you are refuting. Without Christianity, there would be no science, modern medicine, or public education.
Grow up, you hirudinea faux pas wikillectual.
Just a Mariner: I seriously doubt you were able to type, “we NEVER make fun of your religion” with a straight face, since this website, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and Pastafarianism is one big Parodist Mockery of Christianity.
Zizzyoo: Dude, grow up. God hasn’t killed anyone. I find it far more absurd when a non-christian tries to argue Christians through biblical literalism, than the Christians belief in biblical literalism. Have you ever considered the concept of personal accountability? Have you ever considered that people kill people and that religion can’t kill anyone because it has no conscience matter. It’s an idea, it’s a set of mortal virtues and advice on healthy and hygienic living, that people sometime use as an excuse to justify their own ulterior interests.
Scott Mcnulty: That is absolutely retarded. People are about control and sometimes people take a genuinely good idea and reshape it to fit their own twisted wants and logic.
For anyone who didn’t receive a response, it means that your point wasn’t worth a response in the first place.
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Many of you here are being very anti-religious, I don’t think that’s what we stand for. All religions should have equal ability to jeer at the others, even though all the others are wrong.
BTW I do believe in God, especially with sauce.
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My dear COG,
I am a good solid member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I do NOT hate your god. I am baffled as to why you have come to the conclusion that I do. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Do you think that anyone who does not share your beliefs must “hate God” ?!? That is silly. Examine your premises. Rethink your paradigms. You will be startled.
Thelonious
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Ooo. Darkcitymedia is obviously The Only Possible Source for accurate information. Yo, mister Christian/Religious Scholar/Theologians, what was that about “judge not”? I refer you to other posts I have made in response to various froth-lipped spewers of undigested dogma. The non-reactionary, considered posts we pastafarians put up on this site are intended to show the erroneous reasoning of outsiders who come here uninvited to insult our intelligence and morals with their ravings. If some among us occasiionally give back in kind, who can blame them? If you don’t like our little religion, then why don’t you just GO AWAY? I don’t like your little religion, but I don’t feel it necessary to waste my time going out of my way to post hate mail on xian websites. However you slice it, there is no evidence to support the idea of “Intelligent Design”, or any of the other amusing stories in the bible. ID, heaven, hell, etc. are conjecture, pure and simple, whether you like it or not. If crowds of people choose to believe it anyway, that’s very nice, but don’t expect anyone who pays attention to reality to sign up. And absolutely don’t expect yelling at us or calling us names to make us change our minds.
ET
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darkcitymedia said, in part:
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“Dilly: Yes, we’re fully aware as to the motives of behind the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but now that the point has been made, it seems like the intention behind the continuation of what was once a social commentary delivered through symbolism has now become an icon of provocation and since one of the key targets Anti-Christian advocates is it’s roll in past conflict, there are now shades of hypocrisy which have made their way to the surface.”
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I don’t know who the “we” you are referring to might be, but I can speak for myself, thank you.
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It sounds like you are suggesting that this site and the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster should just quietly go away, because we have already made our point. One might as well say that Jesus and the disciples have also already made their point and their followers should likewise just go away. Many posters on this site might wholeheartedly agree with you. You go first, we’ll be right behind you.
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You mentioned the roll of Christians in past conflicts, but I don’t know why you should have limited it to past conflicts. It appears that many Christians are actively engaged in conflicts in the present, so I would not want you to think that the concerns of many of us who are not christians should be brushed aside so easily. It might be more convenient for you to disregard the actions of a significant number of your fellow believers, but that would not be intellectually honest.
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As has been repeatedly pointed out, the replies you have been reading are a response to the hate mail received at this site. Unless the hate mail senders are just pulling our legs (a possibility – who could tell one way or the other?), those senders are Christians. Wouldn’t you say that their messages of hate and messages condemning nonbelievers to eternal hell are intended to provoke conflict? Perhaps you view them as helpful, since if we were to “see the light” and be saved it would be a benefit.
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Some religious leaders, like Pat Robertson for example, actively urge violence against those they dislike. Others have made it clear that killing in the name of Jesus is condoned, even encouraged. (Pat Robertson’s suggestion that Hugo Chavez should be assassinated, pastors sanctioning the murder of workers at abortion clinics or Mullahs support of suicide bombers comes immediately to mind.) It is all too frequently Christians and Muslims who use their holy scripture to justify such deeds.
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Your point that, “shades of hypocrisy… have made their way to the surface” is one upon which we do agree, however. As a non-christian, I do find it disturbing when I am told that I will go to hell because I do not hold the appropriate (approved) beliefs. I do not appreciate the efforts of Christians to insert their non-science views into science classes in public schools.
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I would venture to say that most Pastafarians do not care what you believe as long as you do not try to convert us. I find the Eight I’d Really Rather You Didn’ts to be much clearer guides to moral living than most of what I have read in the Old and New Testaments. The FSM does not care if we believe in him or not. That attitude should guide us in our relations with Christians, too. There is no need for us to attack them. It is un-Pastafarian, in my view. Enough said.
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RAmen
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this is for all those who still (?!) think the bible was written by god, through man’s hands. are you listening, henderbob?
i don’t, he doesn’t and it’s not.
now, i know my saying this is insufficient, so i’ll send you to someone who is extremely credible. his name is bart erhman – look him up. he is a biblical scholar – i mean, the dude learned hebrew and greek just so he could better understand the surviving manuscripts from the the 2nd C onwards. he wrote a book a while back called “Misquoting Jesus”. he was (and i stress the word “was”) an evangelical christian. as a result of his extensive studies, he concluded that the bible was a wholly man-made creation. no divine influence there, my friend. he’s now agnostic. sadly, he appears not to have been touched by his noodly appendage. yet…
christianity certainly has not been around since the beginning of time, since even we weren’t there when the FSM fell out of bed after his bender at the beer volcano on day 4 and subsequently created the big bang. christianity was invented based on the judaic myths of the early centuries BCE, which in turn were based on the pagan (ie polytheistic) mythology floating around at the time. turns out that was invented too, in the many centuries before we figured out to record stuff. islam came late to the party and got all upset and went in a totally different direction. what are you goin’ to do?
regardless, it’s all a way of explaining the world and then for the strong to impose their will on everyone else. and this is where FSMism differs so dramatically. we’re totally cool with all that other stuff. all we ask is that you allow your mind (and your stomach) to expand enough to allow the FSM in. you won’t regret it. and if you do, hey, we guarantee your god will take you back. plus, there’s absolutely no evidence that anyone’s god is real. again, this is where FSMism really excels – we’ve got evidence. plates full of it. for those of you who have read the FSM gospel, you know what i’m talking about: gravity and why little people are so special; pirates and global warming (now known as climate change).this is just to name just two pieces of evidence in favour of the existence of the FSM. if you haven’t read it, find it and do so. better yet, start a FSM study group in your community. there are more of us out there than you think.
may you be touched by noodly appendage soon and often,
yours in pasta,
virginia
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I can’t understand why the original poster hates the flying spaghetti monster.
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oops retraction. my response was for COG. sorry, folks. big lunch obscured my vision.
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i do not hate god i just simply do not belive in him……..what there is in the bible is not historicaly accurate and if it is…………. we are all going to hell….did you know that “rebelion is an act of witchcraft”psalms. thus we are all witches going to hell =P. “”god is all knowing”" ……..EXPLAIN FREE WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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oh and what about dinosaurs? where are they in the bible?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!
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i think others have said this already but christianity is about 2000 years old…”smart”beings have been around for more than 10000 years before that…………….what relegion were they…and truthefully i know that alge from millions and billions of years ago were relegious and belived in the flying spaghetti monster therefor the flying speghetti monster was the first religion
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@darkcitymedia: I seriously love you right now…I’m so happy to see an intelligent Christian responding to some of the complete crap that people spew out over and over again on this site. I have tried to respond but I’m not as articulate as you are. Thanks for your contributions! I really hope some of these people come back and respond.
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You say belief in god was the first religion. Well I’d hate to break it to you but the first records about gods weren’t about the christian god (maybe because chritianity has only been around for 2000 years) or the Hebrew God (maybe because the Hebrews didn’t become Monotheistic until the left Egypt about 1000 B.C., before that they all worshiped many different Gods, they created a one all powerful god because they couldn’t agree on which ones, yes ones is plural, to decide on). The first written religion was sumerian thousands of years before anything else. So the correct statement is “belief is many gods was the first religion”.
PS. I made a reference to Exodus, yes, I’m saying it probably happened. Also realized that the Trojan war probably happened too. Before you start argueing with me thinking “he made reference to the bible therefore he must believe it, but why did he then attack it” I’m sure it confuses your tiny creationist brain to think maybe Exodus was exaggerated just a little. I’m just referring to the parts where they argued about which religion to choose, moses went up to the mountains and got the ten commandments. That is the accurate part. I’m not saying that there was really a burning bush or god really gave him the ten commandments, didn’t he go into the mountains for like 40 days, thats enough time to make his own stone tablets. Some of the Bible is accurate, some of it is exaggerated, some parts of it are 3000 years old
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To ET
I can help but laugh whenever a pseudo-intellectual sycophant always reverts tries to hide behind a Bible with statements such as “Judge not” or “Cast the first stone” whenever they aren’t able to provide an intellectual rebuttal an observation that doesn’t fit with the own placebo sense of self importance.
First of all, it isn’t your webpage, It’s a website for both, “pastfarians” and those who are interested in discussing the concepts and philosophy which orbit the central theme of this site. (i.e. Pastafarianism.) & clearly it is being discussed.
Secondly, “who can blame them” is beside the point. When you attack one person, meerly from the past actions of past individuals is “bigotry.” While Trying to argue the exclusivity of a domain for the public is call, “segregation.”
You don’t know my religion, nor do you know my personal beliefs which surround the religious practice. That is making a narrow minded assumption.
Third, what’s up with the whole, “13. Never assume offense is meant, even if you feel it was. Just like we encourage members not to project hostility, we encourage members not to interpret hostility.”
To try and predict the mood or emotion behind a statement online, without certain indications of intent are absent (i.e. Tone of voice, facial expressions, and hand gestures.) is both childish and imbecilic.
Grow up.
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To Blackbird
First off, clearly “we” meant Christians.
Secondly, this website doesn’t bother me in the slightest, nor does “pastafarianism.” In fact, I support the argument that “intelligent design” shouldn’t be taught in schools, because there is no scientific evidence to justify adding it to public school curriculum. With that being said, people have started using “FSM” & pastafarianism to justify the most trite of acts such as demanding that they have the right to wear an authentic saber whenever they dress up like a pirate, which is absolutely absurd.
Third, with each meaningless use of “FSM” influence and validity is syphoned from the symbol itself, so when the time comes and that symbol is needed to speak out against an infringement of constitutional rights, it has been drained of the validity and meaning that it once had.
Fourth, Don’t assumptions as to who I consider and don’t consider quote, “my fellow believers” & you have absolutely no clue what I have or haven’t said to other Christians or the standards that I hold on them.
In fact, you don’t know what my own religious beliefs entail. There are atleast 12 major demonimations of Christianity, thousands of branch sects, and independent demoninations such as Restorational Christianity or Esoteric Christianity which have their own set of beliefs, interpretation, and doctrines. So you for to make any kind of assumption as to my personal beliefs isn’t a shade of prejudice, it’s cleary prejudice.
fifth, just because you received, quote “hate mail” doesn’t justify you in perpetuating more hate, nor does it justify self-victimization, especially when there are real victims who’ve been part of real violence & oppression, because it trivializes those who are truly suffering. If you have a computer, then you’re in a modern society and your life is great, so act like an adult by ignoring petty name calling, stop turning it into trite and meaningless campaigns, then stand up and open your eyes to the rest of the world.
I’ve been actively fighting for both the civil rights in the US and overseas in 3rd world countries and I will die for any man, woman, Christian, Muslim, Paganist, Atheists, Pastafarian if my death will mean that they will continue to own the inherent rights of liberty… so when I see someone trivializing such rights, I’m going to call them out no matter, their race, creed, or social catagorization.
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You’re quite welcome Rachel.
I have absolutely no problem with the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Pastafarianism, but what I do have a problem with is the perpetuation of hate that justified solely on the belief of a few zealot extremists.
I’ve shed blood, sweat, and tears to defend the inalienable rights of humans in the US and overseas. I’ve sat down with humans in the midst of famine, boys and girls who lost a limb from an explosive, and political prisoners who were subjected to the testing of biological weapons which burnt them so bad that the scar tissue healed over their eye socket and were thus blind even though they had a fully functional optic system, so it bothers me to see that people who consider themselves to be peace loving intellectuals act in such a childish manner and trivialize the inherent rights that they’ve been provided when they were born into modern society.
What gets me the most is when people lash out of Christians by saying “You’re all troglodytes for believing in a primitive religion” and the only reason that don’t believe in a God or intellectual designer, solely on the explanation that is given my the bible. If someone doesn’t consider the concept past the explanation given in the scriptures, then your own thoughts never left the same primitive stage as Fundamentalist Christians.
There are some intelligent people that take an active part in this community and I’ve taken part in some of the most meaningful theological discussions I’ve taken part in my life, but then there are those who are broadcasting the same hate as the fundamental extremists and the only difference is that they are doing it from another side of the spectrum.
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Yeah actually there are no records of the Jewish people existing in Egypt. Also, we don’t hate god, we just hate your religion and your god, because under him assholes like you impose their religion on other people. You obviously couldn’t think of anything better to say could you. FUCK YOU
-J.T.S.
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And on religion, religion started with rituals formed by an early form of man Homo Erectus (yes i know the name is funny), there are Neanderthals gravesites as well. Also many cultures such as those in Japan (Shinto), China (ancestor worship), Many in Africa to numerous to list, the Sumerians, Egyptians, the Roman and Greek gods as well as the Judaism all came before you religion, there are many more I just am lazy and have no life. FUCK YOU
J.T.S.
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@Rachel,
Love me instead of darkcitymedia. You’ll be so ecstatically happily satisfied that you’ll wonder why you ever saw in anything attractive in darkcitymedia.
How could you read Blackbirds’ reply to Darkcitymedia and congratulate darkcitymedia? Your response shows an utter disdain for facts and reason.
I think that those who on first approach to this site disagree with the organizations goals and have any honesty and an intellect measurably higher than an idiot would at least be wobbling in their previous stance after some reading here.
Yet you go deeper into the dangerous zone of fraud by encouraging perpetuation of these false claims.
When you start to embrace facts and reason you can visit me and get naked. You’ll get the response you’re really looking for.
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We do not hate god!!! We believe very strongly in him! You are the disbeliever! It is ridiculous to claim that an invisible man who is living in the sky and watches everything everyone does simultaneously created the universe. We already know that the biblical god is simply a cheap imitation of our exalted flying spaghetti monster. Blessed be his noodliness created the universe and watches over us. Shame on you for hating the one and true creator!
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Uh, God was NOT the first religion. You are wrong. Very wrong. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is cool.
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Hahaaaaa,
Finally someone’s standing up TO the Christians.
I love you guys.
They don’t seem to understand that their beliefs have less scientific evidence than that of the FSM.
Honestly, what kind of argument is “Christianity has always existed, therefor it is correct”
How the fuck are you 100% sure it has always existed?
For the longest period of time in documented history religions were mainly made up of polythiestic and more abstract religions, such as the greek, viking, native american and even early romans.
Christianity is not any more viable a choice of religion than any other.
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Just as before, I’ll respond to posts in chronological order.
ET: First off, it’s sad to see someone hide behind the “Judge not” and “Cast the first stone” excuse, anytime a theist makes an observation that you’re unable to refute through intellectual reasoning, especially when you have no understanding of my doctrine, creed, or scriptural interpretation.
Second, stop trying to victimize yourself and others, because you’ve read a few hollow epithets. Everyone encounters some form of prejudice at one time or another in their life, but that doesn’t give you justification to perpetuate hatred and bigotry you are currently, “spewing.” You don’t have the slightest clue as to what true oppression entails and to act as if reading the messages of a few online flamers is oppression, trivialized those who are truly suffering through famine, apartheid, violent hatred, and slavery. If you own a computer and have access to an internet connection, then you have never experienced true oppression.
Third, you don’t own this website, nor do you dictate that criterion of access and exclusivity of this site. This site is open to the public to discuss “Pastafarianism” and the issues which orbit around the crux doctrine.
Fourth, I don’t advocate “intelligent design” and the fact that you’ve based your own bigoted hatred to the biblical literalism of Fundamental Christians is proof positive that your consideration of the topic itself hasn’t left the same primitive consideration of Fundamentalist, the only difference is your conclusion as to whether you will or won’t accept such doctrine.
You have absolutely no clue was to my beliefs and interpretation of the Christian gospel, nor did I give any indication as to my personal creed, and since there are 12 major Christian denominations with over 3000 brach sects of those major twelve, each of which have their own seperate interpretation and doctrines that are taught, there is no way you could make an accurate guess as to what my beliefs I maintain and this is especially true since I don’t publically state my personal beliefs unless it is relevant to the topic out of respect to those who don’t not choose to practice my religious beliefs and when I do state my personal beliefs I make it clear that I am in no way trying to convert anyone, but never fear, I’ll post the link to my current thread in the message board forum where I have been discussing my beliefs and creed I adovocate.
I’m an esoteric/restorationist Christian, we teach biblical symbolism over the narrow minded literalism of the Fundamentalists, we teach that there is no single religion which is more righteous than another, we invest in science, adovocate molecular/cellular evolution, we teach that not everyone is meant to be a Christian or practice any theist rituals because it would work against them utilizing their own talents and abilities, we see scientists and doctors are modern prophets who perform modern miracles, and that God doesn’t appear to everyone in a singular form because the scriptures teach that God has many names, so what is a spirit or deity to us, could appear an advancement in science, medicine, flying spaghetti monster, so on and so forth.
Lastly, Not once in my post did I refer to any person that participates in this site a derogatory name or utilized a derogatory remark and for you to think that you could somehow determine my mood or emotion behind my post when there are no indicators such as tone of voice, facial expression, or gesturings allow you to make a proper determination, now acts in the concretion of my own determination.
In your post you’ve made gross and inaccurate assumptions about me and others from past incidents with past individuals who have absolutely no affiliation with me or anyone I know, you’ve used derogatory remarks towards me that weren’t at all justified, and you’ve adovcated segregation of free speech… so basically you’ve been pushing the same message as the KKK, Nazis, Neo-Nazis, and other prejudice organizations and institutions.
Does that mean that you yourself is a bigot, propbably not, since your baseless accusations were more rash than prejudice, but I suggest that you take the time to understand the individual before you start making judgements on their personal beliefs without the slightest bit of evidence available.
Black Bard: Clearly “we” means Christians, even the most narrow minded Christians are well aware that Jesus would not have been born in winter if we go off the information alone.
Secondly, I have absolutely no problem with FSM and as a matter of fact, I fully support the original intention behind it’s creation. What I do have a problem with is people who have began to use it for trite and arbitrary issues such as not being able to wear a saber in public whenever they dress up like a pirate. Everytime “FSM” is used in such a way, it syphons the influential meaning that “FSM” stands for. So when it is needed for a real infringement of constitutional rights, it’s meaning has been spent on the semantics of meaningless issues.
Third, you don’t know who I consider fellow worshippers, nor do you know what I have said to Fundamentalist Christians in the past or the issues I’ve stood for, but I’m willing to bet that I’ve put my life on the line many more times than you or ET ever have, because I fight for the inherent liberties that all humans are owed upon birth and religion has absolutely nothing to do with my work as a 3rd generation civil rights advocate, past the fact that many megalomanical men and women have used it as an excuse to expedite the reasoning of military or violent actions and even then, it’s the individual who is responsible, not religion.
Lastly, stop victimizing yourself because some redneck thought you were going to hell because you don’t share his or hers belief. Everyone has come across the epithetic actions of prejudice, but you’ve been through nothing that justifies you perpetuating the hate.
If you want to see real oppression, then I suggest you go to Liberia, any of the Southern African countries, or Iraq while Saddam Hussein was still in power. Saddam and his son had hidden cameras placed in the female dorms so they could pick out women who they would had abduct so they could rape them before killing them, during the baath parties 25 year reign, they raped well over 2000 women, or go take a look at the political prisoners who were subjected to having biological weapons tested on them, there were women and men who’s face were burned so badly that the scar tissue has healed over their eye sockets and even though they had a fully functional optic system, they were still blind. Who needs to see weapons of mass destruction when you’ve seen the result and eye witeness accounts. This is just a fraction of the atrocities that were caused by Saddam and acting as an infantry translator I heard these stories first hand, witnessed the after effects, burst into an underground cellar minutes after a prisoner had been beheaded.
Everything I published in my last comment was directly addressing the content of those posts, while you and ET have both made gross assumptions without the slightest hint of evidence. So I suggest that you grow up, then learn to differentiate individuals from their religion and take the time to get to know them first, because while you’ve been crying and pouting about bias and hatred, I’ve been given my blood, sweat, and tears to put an end to it. So take the example of your own words and dont judge people from the vague catagorization of “Christian or Christianity” because there are a large number of Christians who don’t advocate the actions of Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell, Fred Phelps, or that washed up actor from growing pains who runs infront of every camera he sees while sielding his atheist slaying banana.
http://www.venganza.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9705&start=0
Follow the link and maybe you’ll see just how gross and inaccurates your assumptions truly were….
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hate mail summing up:
wow. what venom out there. this is the first time i’ve visited the “hate mail” section. sorry, but i don’t think i’ll go back; it’s too disheartening. i had no idea of the level of hatred and intolerance out there for “alternative” theories to the widely accepted, but never proven, creationist theories. makes me wonder what you all are afraid of.
reading thru a smattering of these letters, i found this interesting bit from sty, a scientist who believes in a god but is against teaching ID as science. “stick to fighting the good fight to keep science in schools and make sure it is not replaced with absurd ID, i say this believing a God created the universe and let evolution run its course.” please forgive my ignorance, but isn’t the last part ID in a nutshell? i mean, the proponents of ID prefer an interventionist god ‘cause it makes them feel significant, but the basis remains that a god pretty much put everything together. that’s all we’re saying too, except that it wasn’t “a” god, it was the FSM. if ID is credible as science, so is FSMism. both should be taught alongside evolution and we’ll see who’s left standing. read bobby’s open letter to the kansas school board. he’s very clear about his intentions.
given the fact that creationism is being passed off as science (ie, ID) in kansas and pinellas county FLA(?), even after having been completely discredited in dover PA a few years ago, all i can ask is this: what is wrong with you people? i realize that americans are extremely religious, but your founding fathers, 2 or 3 of whom were atheist, specifically wanted a barrier between the state (eg science education) and religion (eg not science, but philosophy) to prevent such things from occurring. this recent push to present non-scientific theories as science is very disturbing. it’s the scopes monkey trial all over again. surely your society has advanced in the last 90 yrs…?
looking up “scientific method”, you will see that it requires evidence. in science, you fit the theory to the facts, not the other way around. if the theory doesn’t fit, you toss it out and come up with something else that does. there is no home for circular logic in science; that remains the purview of religion. the only “leap of faith” in science is, perhaps, in formulating a theory; but then you still have go out and prove it. this is a fundamentally different approach from every religion i’ve ever studied, FSMism being the obvious exception because it offers evidence.
for believers, you’re given a bunch of premises, rules, some historical facts thrown in and boom, ya got yerself a religion. then you go out and convince a bunch of people by making up some cool stories, and boom, ya got yerself a bigger religion than the next guy who’s doing the same thing. watch tom cruise’s video on the home page, if you don’t believe me. L ron hubbard wrote extremely bad science fiction before he invented scientology. (i’m very definitely an “SP”.)
i have no problem with teaching religion in schools, but only under certain conditions: all religions must be represented accurately as only one of many lifestyle philosophies out there (one religon is not more “true” than any other); it must be done in comparison with other religions or life philosophies such as buddhism; and it must be taught in an academic context. the courses should be based on the history of each religion’s evolution; no dogma allowed – unlike our new friend, 16yofc, who is so fond of quoting biblical excerpts. geez, even the uneducated dudes who wrote exodus acknowledged the existence of other gods; they just wanted you to worship the one they invented rather than the competition’s deity.
so, take heart out there and keep the discussion civil.
may his noodliness touch your life,
yours in pasta,
v
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everything is the same dont you get it? god or no god, spaghetti or no spaghetti. Man created science and man created god. Science and Religion are both right and both wrong…. ZOMG paradoxical statement…
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If God is supposedly a forgiving person, Why did he send people to Hell? And we can’t hate something that doesn’t exist.
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Rachel,
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I have followed many of your postings and appreciate your contributions to this site. I believe that you are too much in awe of darkcitymedia because of his “articulate” messages. Unfortunately, big words cannot hide misinformation as well as darkcitymedia would like. You were hoping that someone would come back and respond to him. I thought my one post would have been enough for me, but evidently not, so here goes.
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darkcitymedia said, in part: “Have you ever considered the concept of personal accountability? Have you ever considered that people kill people and that religion can’t kill anyone because it has no conscience matter. It’s an idea, it’s a set of mortal virtues and advice on healthy and hygienic living, that people sometime use as an excuse to justify their own ulterior interests.”
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Several posters have said that the Christian religion has been responsible for a lot of bloodshed, pain and death. darkcitymedia would like to dismiss that assertion, as in his quote above. I wish he/she were right, but he/she is not. Religion is much more than just “an idea.” Religion is a practice, a way seeing the world, the place of people and things in it and the relationship of one to the other. The “set of mortal [moral?] virtues” is a code of conduct for adherents.
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The practice of many Christians has been, and often still is, to regard any deviation from their view of the world and “set of mortal virtues” as being displeasing to God, subjecting deviants to eternal damnation if they do not change their ways. I consider this to be evil, in itself.
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Additionally, to suggest that ideas cannot kill is sadly deluded. A couple of examples should suffice. Nazism is an idea and set of values. People who held those views and values, acting upon them, were responsible for terrible suffering and death. Slavery is sanctioned in the Christian Bible. The idea that one person could own another and control everything that person does has caused unimaginable suffering. Ideas do have consequences.
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Rachel, you mentioned “some of the complete crap that people spew out over and over again on this site,” and I couldn’t agree with you more. Unfortunately, it seems to be coming from many directions. Civil discourse should be the ideal, here. An exchange of ideas would be nice, but rational arguments have little effect on those with closed minds. Belief is not knowledge. The point of faith is to believe WITHOUT knowing – without “proof”. That being the case, believers should not be too sure of themselves in their righteous condemnation of others.
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RAmen
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V,
Just to clarify, the viewpoint summed up by STY is actually Deist and is definitely not ID. Many people who believe in evolution also believe in god, they simply believe that he/she/it created the matter and energy that went into the big bang and let everything run its course from there. ID claims that evolution does not happen, and that every species was intentionally designed to serve some purpose. Despite was ID proponents claim, evolution makes no claims about how life originated, it only describes how species change and diversify (or not) over time, therefore, it is quite possible (and common) to believe in god and evolution at the same time. Basically, most folks out there go with scientific answers for the questions that science is capable of answering, and have to take a leap of faith somewhere when it comes to the rest (including me, as an atheist – it’s impossible to prove scientifically that there is no god, I just don’t believe that there is one). I think STY was simply trying to point out that the study of evolution does not, nor was it ever attempting to, disprove the existence of god, nor will teaching it turn children into atheists (a common, if ill-founded, fear that the ID proponents constantly prey upon). Does that help?
Best wishes and RAmen, Sarah
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@darkcitymedia,
I want to congratulate you on the noble work that you have done reducing the chances of a terrorist attack here. I know that many on this site believe that we are increasing our chances of “retaliation” in the U.S. by fighting over there. However, I believe that if their hands are full over there they have less opportunity over here, and world domination IS their objective – Sharia law doesn’t work for me. Also the Iranians cannot be allowed to have nuclear weapons. I support WHATEVER measures are necessary to prevent that – even sand to glass tactics.
However, when you say“If you own a computer and have access to an internet connection, then you have never experienced true oppression.” Well, I think that you’re smart enough that I can just say that you should give that a little more thought.
Your God philosophy will take elaboration on another post. Coming soon. – Fizzmick Pa Chee
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we don’t hate god. We DO love the noodley one. this is merely a difference of opinion. I find it hilarious that you sit there on your computer and have nothing better to do than to trash a religion in its own church. this sickens me. You make all Christians look like sad, insensitive people. :(
-RAmen
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Dear V,
Placing “God created life through” in front of the theory of evolution, doesn’t turn the theory of evolution into “Intelligent Design” and as a matter of fact, most Christians who practice their creed outside of the narrow intellectual borders of Fundamentalism, think Intelligent Designer is nothing more than a bunch of half assed pseudo nonsense that was conjured by some jerk off like Jerry Farwell in a two hour day dreaming session as means to dictate the Fundamentalist congregation from actually reading a book on biogenetics.
Now, you all clearly bought into the misconception that the central focus of Christianity is God, Sin, Heaven & Hell. So as a Christian, allow me to clarify to you that is a crock of shit. Christianity focuses on friends, family, and community. If you ever want to understand the beliefs of real Christians, then stop buying into the biblical literalism that is advocated by the Fundamentalists, then look at our doctrine through the use of biblical symbolism.
The parables, songs, poems, and metaphors that are utilized to deliver a pre-established set of moral doctrines, advice on healthy living, hygienic living, and uplifting message in our times of sorrow. The only reason it is packaged in parables, songs, poems, and metaphors is to make these doctrines easier to remember during a time when public education wasn’t available, while the ritual practices are a mean of honoring our ancestors and on occasion they are used to honor not a Christian God, Muslim God, Pagan God, but a Universal God and to be frank, it isn’t a requirement for a Christian to buy into the unquestioned belief that there is a God.
As a matter of fact, if I discovered that God doesn’t exist on Saturday, I would still be in Church on Sunday because I find the practice itself to be a comfort when I am struck by the grief that will linger with me for the rest of my life, due to past events I’d rather keep private and the practice itself gives me peace from the regrets that haunt my past. Also, it puts me in a position where I encounter others in the midst of present suffering and having suffered, I can help them through their time of need & when I say help, that doesn’t mean push a bunch of bible versus and religious doctrine, because I only speak on my personal beliefs when asked… when I say help, I am I listen to them, because 99% of the time, people in the midst of sorrow just need someone to listen to them and allow them to become the center of focus for one moment.
I don’t blame any of you for the resentment you have for the actions of Christian Fundamentalists that you’ve encountered in your past and as a matter of fact, I resent them much more than any of you will ever know, because everyday I am forced to differentiate myself beliefs from their propaganda. With that being said, it would be decent of you if you would take the time to get to know the individual before you cast judgment solely of the most general of catagories that their religious beliefs fall under.
The only Christians you should hate, are the Fundamentalist Christians, because they’re all a bunch of assholes. Just remember that a great number of Christians who don’t see the creed established by Pastafarianism as some blasphemous stab at religious belief and as a matter of fact, I am in complete agreement with the central focus of this substitute philosophy.
One of the most meaningful symbols of modern society as been built through the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in fact I can’t think of any other modern symbol which represents the inherent liberties we all are owed, but be careful how you choose to use it, because as I said before, it’s influence and meaning is syphoned with each trivial use and the greatest example of the end result from trivial campaigns is the current state of Christianity.
Oh, yeah. Newly found FSM Worshipper, Hell is an invention of Roman Catholicism that was added into the scriptures centuries after the first bible was published and this was done to enforced a perceived consequence of questioning both Church and State.
If there is a God, then from what the original scriptures state, God really doesn’t give a shit about what you do as long as it doesn’t hurt another person and you strive to make this planet a better place than what it was when you entered this planet.
Also, the concept of Sin as most know it, is a bunch of bullshit as well.
If you would like to know why, then send me a private message through the pm on the message board. I go by the same handle as I use in this comment thread.
Peace.
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darkcitymedia said, in part:
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My answers appear in parenthesis (like this)
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“To Blackbird
(Did you mean me, BlackBard?)
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“Secondly, this website doesn’t bother me in the slightest, nor does “pastafarianism.” In fact, I support the argument that “intelligent design” shouldn’t be taught in schools, because there is no scientific evidence to justify adding it to public school curriculum. With that being said, people have started using “FSM” & pastafarianism to justify the most trite of acts such as demanding that they have the right to wear an authentic saber whenever they dress up like a pirate, which is absolutely absurd.”
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(Yes, I understand that Sikhs sometimes get a hard time when they wear their ceremonial daggers to school. And some young Muslim women are in trouble in French schools if they want to wear a head scarf. Religious intolerance is a drag.)
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“Third, with each meaningless use of “FSM” influence and validity is syphoned from the symbol itself, so when the time comes and that symbol is needed to speak out against an infringement of constitutional rights, it has been drained of the validity and meaning that it once had.”
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(I guess you could say the same for anything an idiot does in the name of his or her beliefs, e.g. hate mail postings on web sites.)
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“Fourth, Don’t assumptions as to who I consider and don’t consider quote, “my fellow believers” & you have absolutely no clue what I have or haven’t said to other Christians or the standards that I hold on them. In fact, you don’t know what my own religious beliefs entail. There are atleast 12 major demonimations of Christianity, thousands of branch sects, and independent demoninations such as Restorational Christianity or Esoteric Christianity which have their own set of beliefs, interpretation, and doctrines. So you for to make any kind of assumption as to my personal beliefs isn’t a shade of prejudice, it’s cleary prejudice.”
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(I never used the term “my fellow believers” and never implied any such thing. You must have me confused with someone else.)
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“fifth, just because you received, quote “hate mail” doesn’t justify you in perpetuating more hate, nor does it justify self-victimization, especially when there are real victims who’ve been part of real violence & oppression, because it trivializes those who are truly suffering.”
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(Didn’t I just get done saying that hate in return for insults is un-Pastafarian? Didn’t just urge restraint for all contributors to this dialog? Here are my actual words: “The FSM does not care if we believe in him or not. That attitude should guide us in our relations with Christians, too. There is no need for us to attack them. It is un-Pastafarian, in my view. Enough said.”)
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RAmen
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Whoa! I go away for 8 or 9 months and find the hate mail section infested with total whacko christian trolls.
@darkcitymedia: Take your thorazine! Jeezus!
It looks like the fun has returned.
RAmen!
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“Man created science and man created god. Science and Religion are both right and both wrong” But only science can be revised. “I think therefore I am” -Rene Descartes, according to that quote the only thing that man can be sure of is that he is thinking, and all else must be proved with thinking, logic, reason, experiment, because it is the only thing that people can be absolutely sure of. So the real paradox is what you chose to believe, not what is real or not. Although science is man made, it is based entirely on the natural world and what it has to offer. Religion cannot be proven right or wrong because it deals with the realm of the supernatural. So religion makes attempts to deal with the natural world, and at all turns it has been wrong. So under our perception of reality and fact as humans, religion cannot be fact. Religion only exists in our minds (or at least uneducated minds), science has physical evidence. Gravity is a law that governs planets to our very existence, and it can be proven. But both come from man, yes, it is just whether or not that man is correct or thinks on the basis of what is fact.
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Well i cant answer why ppl hate god.. God created this earth so ppl can talk about how there are a bunch of religons before christianity. Ppl on earth are the ones who made the records. If you read the bible you will see that a lot of stuff on this earth is in that book and humans didnt write the bible..
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Smarter, that observation is as anomalous as a jigsaw puzzle for preschool kids and far more narrow than 95% most Fundamental Christian.
Also, Newly, even by Fundamentalist standards, I man can’t be forgiven if he/she seeks forgiveness and acts as the example from then on out. While others are beyond forgiveness.
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I agaree with your thingy up there.. God created us believe or dont believe thats your problem..
Science was created by humans so how can you say that science is right, when god created humans and humans created science??
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I have found new faith in the FSM, who are you to deny me my beliefs you petty Christian?!
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Um, can I respond to the statement, “Christianity has been here since the beginning of time”? I’m a Roman-Catholic, and although I’m not really into religion, even I know that Christianity was an off-jutty thing of the Jewish religion. Even if the Jewish people had been there since the beginning of time, it would take some time before Jesus would be born, because it was during the Roman Empire. And since Jesus started up Christianity, and he was like, thirty-something when he began preaching, Christianity wasn’t here since the beginning of time. Because, yeah. SO HAH.
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Dude I just read that letter thing about how the Bible is truth and I’m just a tad confused by it. Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t Christianities roots linked completely with Judaism. I mean the early followers of Christ in no way considered themselves a separate religion, but rather an off-shooting sect of their own. Also I was unaware that the begging of time was around 33 A.D.
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We don’t all hate God and Christians. I was just brought up by Christians, that’s all, and I had better sense than to believe in that rubbish.
The Bible is just a book. Get over that.
Just because it is a very old book doesn’t make it a recorder of the facts, you have to believe that. And that “truth” and “fact” are both philosophically and technically not the same thing.
Besides, think it over. Think hard, I know it pains you. All theorem etc have the same possibility in an ideal world. However, in this world, it has become apparent that the chance of your God is the same chance as the FSM, a celestial teapot, Allah, Zeus, the scientological theorem, Yahewh/Jehovah, Krishna, the Golden Calf, or Isis and Osiris.
Your religion is still outdated, remember that. One day, the return of Jesus will be viewed with as much scorn and dismissal as the birth of Venus from the God Cronus’s sliced-off genitalia.
If you think that God’s that great, as well as benevolent etc, read the Old Testament. Pay attention to all the gory, chauvinistic, malevolent, selfish, proud and egotistical, misogynistic, schadenfreudal details. Note them, if you like, and then read the list.
Most Christians nowadays tend to ignore the Old Testament, but in the New, Jesus said to not ignore (etc) the word of God in any way/shape/form, INCLUDING THE OLD TESTAMENT. So where is your loving, benevolent, milksop God now??
Read Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion. Please.
No, I’m not an atheist. I’m not religious, either. It’s called an “agnostic-atheist” that has been to church for years, exposed to all that ridiculous rot, AND read the Bible. Multiple times.
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@Fizzmick Pa Chee: I’m flattered, but you’re definitely not my type.
“How could you read Blackbirds’ reply to Darkcitymedia and congratulate darkcitymedia? Your response shows an utter disdain for facts and reason.” How so? I wasn’t referring to Blackbird’s post as crap, although I definitely disagree with most of it. I don’t think anyone’s arguing that religious people aren’t involved in conflicts…
“I think that those who on first approach to this site disagree with the organizations goals and have any honesty and an intellect measurably higher than an idiot would at least be wobbling in their previous stance after some reading here.” Please stop making assumptions about my opinions. I completely agree with the goal of this site, if it is still to keep ID from being taught in science classrooms. I just don’t like the fact that many people here are using that as an excuse to openly bash Christianity.
“Yet you go deeper into the dangerous zone of fraud by encouraging perpetuation of these false claims.”
Like what? The claim that Pastafarians are often as hateful as they perceive Christians to be toward them? Could you be more specific if what I said really bothers you that much?
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We do believe in God…..by God I mean FSM.
RAmen
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I dont hate God. The FSM created all things, which must include God as well as love. I love all things created by his holy noodliness. Your argument that ‘God’ (I assume you mean Christianity?) was the first religion however is LAME BEYOND BELIEF. Just ask a pagan.
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Once again, all replies will be authored in chronological order.
James: What the hell are you talking about?! There is endless amounts of evidence of that Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians. Further more, you should show people the respect of not tying them into your own bigotry.
No one has “imposed” their religion on you, they may have approached you on the matter, but they certainly don’t put a gun to your head while doing so. Further more, genderizing a deity is proof positive inability to conjure a meaningful point.
You shouldn’t be so concerned with what other people can or can’t say, because the extreme bigotry you just express far exceeds the actions of 99% of Christian Fundamentalists. Do you know what the difference is between Klansman and yourself? You spew equal hatred, exhibit identical idiocy, and you do so behind the robe and hood of online anonymity. While the semantics of your beliefs do nothing to place you above any Fundamentalist in and way, shape, or form.
Shelby: Grow up! You’re demanding religious equality that you’ve already been given and in turn you’re employing the same antagonist tactics that you’re condemning Fundamentalists of using.
A real intellectual who is confident in their choices and belief, have no need to for such tactics because they know that their example has far more power and influence than a lifetime and sardonic remarks.
Anthony: 50% of Christians don’t base their scientific beliefs on biblical scripture. There are 12 major Christian Denominations, plus over 3000 branch sects of each denominations and they all maintain their own interpretation of religious scripture, so to categorize all Christians in a single column is as short minded as any part of the Fundamentalist Doctrine. Further more, for you to believe that religions sole focus is the metaphysical, then you’re just as foolish any misguided Christian who doesn’t possess an understanding of the history of theology.
There are just as many Christians who teach biblical symbolism, as Christians who teach biblical literalism and those to base their creed on biblical symbolism have just as much invested into scientific belief as our belief in our theological rituals.
The focus of Christianity is friends, family, and community. While our rituals are used to honor our ancestors and the role that their religious beliefs played in freeing them from the shackles of oppression. So it would do you good to learn to differentiate Christians by doctrine and take the time to get to know the individual, instead of making presumptuous judgments on their character. Until that time, you’re just as much a part of the problem as Christian extremists.
Lastly, I would like to express my gratitude to those who took the time to read this message and I invite anyone who is interested in learning the difference between denominational doctrines, to send me a pm or email me at darkcitymedia@yahoo.com I give my you my word, that all information will be provided through academic methods and at no time will I try convert anyone.
My reasons I make this offer is 1) I want to introduce you to the millions of Christians who loath the Fundamentalists far more than any person who maintains alternative beliefs. 2) To build an unified alliance that’s made up of people of all race, creed, and academic field. 3) Provide you with tactics and information you can utilize during a debate or argument of any kind with Fundamentalist Christians to kick their proverbial legs from under them, while preventing them from having their defense mechanisms triggered in which they shut themselves off from reason, prevent them from the use of their perverted rationale which is instilled by their congregational leaders instilled which states that anyone who contradicts their beliefs is a sad sinner and agent of Lucifer.
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beer volcanoes rule.
i find it insanely funny how so many ‘christians’ have jumped on this bandwagon defending their interpretation of god. no one said ‘your’ god was bad, wrong…yet you have to defend anything anywhere that goes against the mindset some of you have.
it’s really scary.
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darkcitymedia, your message to ‘V’ certainly caught my attention when you said, “to be frank, it isn’t a requirement for a Christian to buy into the unquestioned belief that there is a God.
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A close reading of your statement begs for a clarification. You used the phrase, “unquestioned belief that there is a God.” I recognize that people are always free to question their beliefs, but I always thought that one had to conclude that God does, in fact, exist in order to be a Christian. I understand that religious practice includes much more than “worship” and that the social aspects might be more important to some than others, but are you saying that there are Christians who are also agnostics or atheists?
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I would be interested to know more. I will take you up on your offer of further information. I’ll contact directly by email, as per your offer.
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RAmen
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And that’s why I hate religion. Everyone always feels the need to justify their beliefs… It’s almost as if they know they’re wrong. ahhhhh – thats the good thing about being neutral; you can never be wrong (although you can also never be right).
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@BlackBard (I think I got your name wrong at some point, sorry)
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Oh, how I love big words! *swoon* (As hard as it may be to believe, I was actually able to comprehend the message that I stated I agree with.)
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Beliefs cannot kill people. A “practice, a way seeing the world, the place of people and things in it and the relationship of one to the other” cannot kill people. Not to say that ideas aren’t important, but it takes people to act upon those ideas for them to have effects, positive or negative. Yes, Christians have done terrible things in the name of their religion. This is not the fault of Christianity itself (which is clearly a nonviolent religion), but the fault of human evil. The Crusades, for example – if Christianity and Islam had never existed, those people would probably still have been killing each other for some other reason.
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You said, “The practice of many Christians has been, and often still is, to regard any deviation from their view of the world and “set of mortal virtues” as being displeasing to God, subjecting deviants to eternal damnation if they do not change their ways. I consider this to be evil, in itself.” Although you may not like it, this is what a very large number of people believe that God has told them (through the Bible). To them, that is the truth. Period. It would be wrong for them to treat members of another religion as inferior, naturally, but if they simply believe that others are wrong, what harm does that do to anyone else? You believe that they are wrong. They believe that you are wrong. As long as everyone prevents those beliefs from allowing them to treat another person with disrespect, I don’t see a problem. And it’s not as if some Christian leader woke up one day and said, “I’m right and everybody else is wrong” – many Christians believe that Jesus taught that believing in Him is the only way to heaven. I don’t share this belief but I wouldn’t go so far as to call that “evil”, it’s just a different opinion.
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