My Clay Sun has published a report on the recent Clay County School Board meeting:
Despite impassioned opposition from science experts, teachers and some clergy, Clay County School Board members unanimously resolved Tuesday night that evolution should be presented as a theory, and not fact, in the classroom.
The board passed a resolution, proposed by Superintendent David Owens, asking the Florida Department of Education to reword its newly proposed state standards, which presents evolution as “the fundamental concept underlying all of biology and is supported in multiple forms of scientific evidence.”
The Baker County, Florida, School Board approved a similar resolution a month ago.
The Florida State Board of Education is scheduled to vote Feb. 19th on proposed changes to state science standards.
Creationists will likely continue their campaign that evolution is “just a theory”, and as such should not be presented as fact. Their argument is that unless a theory has been “proved”, it is no more valid than any other theory. They don’t realize – or choose not to acknowledge – that most theories in science have not been “proved”, and it’s not the purpose of science to provide dogmatic proof of anything.
Scientists will likely continue to get worked up and make compelling logical arguments that will go right over the Creationists’ heads. They’ll not accept that appeals to logic don’t work on those who have abandoned logic for faith.
Here are some links if you’d like to read more.
My Clay Sun report on the Clay County School Board resolution
Florida Today article on the upcoming State School Board vote
Florida Citizens for Science coverage of the issue
We need to decide how we’ll proceed …
Lots of people say “there’s no evidence either way so it must be equal probability” about God, but there’s no evidence that there isn’t an element that tastes exactly like chocolate, is green, one millilitre weighs the same as a car and is normally 5000 degrees celsius, so is it equal probability?
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This is showing social evolution, by destroying their own education system they are condemning their children to an inferior future. If creationists are so afraid of evolution their faith must not be very strong. This is simply ridiculous, we have to keep Florida from demeaning evolution like this or other states will begin to follow suit and they may even begin to attack the FSM ‘theory’ of life.
I am ready to contact any board member, freedom from religion group, news group, anyone to bring this situation to the front pages and let the sensible people take action.
-Will
-Atheist Pitbull
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To hell with the counties – go after the heart of the education system the school board itself!!! RAmen.
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it is more powerful weapon to make them look IDiots, than simply reject ID/crea bull***t
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I am afraid that we cannot do much. Our best hope is that people in florida will be concerned about it and work out together against this political crap.
RAmen, my friend, RAmen… this country is going as crazy as the world, as crazy as any God who would create it… I am so glad that I found here some people to understand that. HE (the FSM) necessarily created it by accident, or being drunk.
But no time to despair, let work for the next generation. We certainly need to increase visibility, whitout to get shot. Hard task.
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Evolution is a theory as much as Gravity is a theory. When will they learn?
Anyways, I say we try and get our theory of creation included.
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Such a shame. I agree that logical arguments can unfortunately go no where.
I obviously don’t live in Clay County, and I’m curious: do schools in that area have “World Religions” classes at any level of public education? Some variation of this class exists at the majority of Canadian high schools – is this the case in the States?
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I am from Florida Citizens for Science. It is apparent that you folks had quite an effect on Polk County a while ago. With that in mind, I would recommend that you go ahead and take the same approach with the other counties and the state BoE.
Scroll down a bit on the FCS blog and you’ll see a post that lists darn near every single person and county that has come out as anti-evolution. Reference and contact information is all there for your use.
Thanks,
Brandon
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Looks like I’m going to have to re-mail my letter and start advocating others to follow suit
This is a horrible, spit-in-the-face at science.
I and embarrassed to live in Florida.
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The more people know they’re created by the FSM the better!
Because uhm… you know. It’s good.
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Evolution IS ‘just a theory’.
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But so is Creationism.
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Praise be to our Lord the Flying Spaghetti Monster! We have another chance to ensure that impressionable children are taught the truth about the origin of man. Maybe “evolution” is just a theory, but our explanation is a FACT, and should be taught along side those other “explanations.”
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Let’s show support for the inclusion of alternate “theories” of the origin of man and the proliferation of species all over the world. What a glorious day!!
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RAman
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Seriously, nothing scientific is ‘proved’ as science deals not with truth, and science is not a hierarchy. When somebody says that a theory is ‘just a theory’ because it ‘hasn’t been proved’ they are showing their ignorance of science as a theory isn’t a second rate speculation; it is a well studied, peer reviewed, and consistent explanation of something observed.
Example: Person A claims there is a dragon in his garage. Person B asks for verification. Person A claims that the dragon is invisible and cannot be felt. As the dragon has no means by which to observe it, it is not verifiable or falsifiable, meaning that it is not science’s realm to deal with.
In the same path, creationism cannot be placed under the class of science, as it is not science, not even pseudo science; it is nothing but speculation based not upon observation but faith. Faith is not wrong, but it is not scientific, and to believe it is is not only disrespecting science but disrespecting the basis of that faith itself is, in most cases, not up for scrutiny.
Sorry if I’m taking things a bit seriously, but I personally get really peeved when I hear of individuals bashing on rational, scientific reasoning ignorant of the meaning of the terms they use. The only word for such things is quite honestly bullshit.
If they cannot see what it is the science is, then they must agree to teach the ways of our Noodly Master, lest they feel his saucy wrath (i think they have a creme for that now).
May your pasta never cool,
RAmen
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It should remain as a theory. Evolutionary Theory is a theory because it can’t be proven. Theories cannot be proven. Hypothesis’ can be proven, but not theories. Once there is a hypothesis, we will see, but for now, there isn’t. On the flip side, all religious doctrines are false by nature (except FSMism of course). Evolutionary Theory should not be considered “fact” (until there is a written hypothesis with parameters) and religion should be kept in church.
“If religion is scientific enough to be taught in science class, then that must mean that science is spiritual enough to be taught in church.” – 2 Gryphon
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It is my understanding that evolution IS theory.
Perhaps my definitions are wrong, but a theory comes from a hypothesis (which ID has never been able to “evolve” from, pun intended) and the hypothesis is put to test, quantified, and recreated – all based on facts (water freezes at 32 F, humans develop from the combination of both parents genetic material, 2 + 2 = 4, etc).
Hence I do not see what the big deal if the school board wants to state that it is a theory. Or am I missing part of the story here?
Instead we should make sure that they begin to explain to kids (and adults) exactly what a scientific theory is. Every frustrating argument I have had with a creationist breaks down when they use the term “theory” to describe intuition and/or any loosely put together idea…
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Religion is a hoax
But Evolution still is just a theory, at least from a scientific point of view.
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A victory for Pastafarianism!!! Now we can spread The Good Word (and The Good Food) to little children.
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BY THE WAY!!!!! Florida will be 100% more Pastafarian in the next two weekends. It’s GASPARILLA!!!!! There will be a dramatic rise in Pirate activity. The children’s parade was yesterday — AND it’s already colder!!!! Coincidence? I think not. Next weekend is the big one with all the GROG and drunken wenches. FSM be praised.
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Gaar. I guess the mounds of evidence supporting truth and rationality can’t get past centuries of indoctrination. And really, the change in wording isn’t that bad. Honestly, taking the word “theory” out of it may help avoid confusion. Perhaps we should lobby the Church to teach the (non-scientific) “theory” of creation.
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On another website (arstechnica.com) I read another quote from one of these county board meetings that gives such a clear insight as to the level of scientific insight we’re up against:
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“evolution is presented as one of several theories as to how the universe was formed.”
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When the YECs can’t distinguish between the origins of different life forms and the origins of the universe anymore, isn’t it time to rethink the place of the democratic process in determining science curricula?
One of the ancient Greeks once summed it up slightly arrogantly but very correctly:
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“Democracy is a pain if you know better.”
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Offtopic: Darwin is currently spinning in his crypt. So is each intelligent being that ever died. So why not harness that rotational energy? Hook em up to a generator? Or, better yet, pass a “teach evolution as a fact” bill and every stupid or gullible being will start spinning. Apparently, there’s more of those, therefore, there was more of those, so hooking up those crypts would create a lot of energy! And help fight against global warming!
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how do i contact the school board????
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Give us the links and let’s start writing now. Why wait? It’s much harder to put the cat in the bag than to keep it from getting out. While I can certainly see the upside of teaching Flying Spaghetti Monsterism in public screwals – it would really get people to think about religion – science class is not the place.
My fingers are at the ready, – Fizz.
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I live in the county and, as a student, it’s pretty sickening to see stuff like this being done. And people wonder why Florida’s public schools suck.
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I don’t have any problem with them teach evolution as a theory. After all, that’s what it is, just like the theory of gravity or Quantum theory.
What they’re really trying to do is say “hey, you aren’t saying all of your science is absolutely correct in absolutely every situation, thus it’s just a /’theory’/ that we can just ignore. LALALALALA, CAN’T HEAR YOU!”
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Is it just me or are the comments not working right?
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Now that we have decided to lobby for equal time, is there a central e-mail we are sending our e-mails to?
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There was an editorial in the Miami Herald on Jan 10 in which another Florida Superintendent is quoted saying resolutions against evolution have been passed in 12 districts.
http://www.miamiherald.com/418/story/373532.html
“Oscar Howard Jr., superintendent of Taylor County’s School District, and Danny Lundy, vice chairman of the School Board, spoke in accents from that other Florida. ”We’re opposed to teaching evolution as a fact,” Howard said, adding that his School Board and 11 others have passed resolutions against the imposition of evolution in the school curriculum.”
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You can tell that the people who support ID are poorly educated. An educated person knows there is a difference between ’scientific theory” and an every day theory. Hell they taught us that in my high school and that was 20 years ago.
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@Stevo
I don’t know about other schools in the county, but as of 2000, Orange Park High offered classes on the Old Testament and New Testament as electives, but no other classes on world religion. It is possible that the topic was discussed in the (also elective) humanities/anthropology courses they offered at the time.
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.
“In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists “theory” and “fact” do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behaviour are Newton’s theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity.
“In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common incorrect statement “It’s not a fact, it’s only a theory.” True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.”
You are confusing the common usage definition of the word theory with the scientific definition. The two are not synonymous.
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There seems to be a little confusion among our Pastafarian brothers and sisters so let me lay down the facts as it were. The Scientific Method starts with facts which are observable events, objects, or what have you. Now facts are a dime a dozen: the sun rises in the east, I had cornflakes for breakfast, school buses are yellow. On their own facts don’t mean much but thanks to natural human curiosity we want to know how things work, function etc. etc. so we come up with a hypothesis to explain these phenomenon which requires research, observation of more facts and experimentation. Once we think our hypothesis is pretty solid we present it to the scientific community which puts it under immense scrutiny and does its own research, observation of even more facts and experimentation to see if the hypothesis is up to snuff. Now when a general consensus is reached among the scientific community that hypothesis may become a theory but if any new damning evidence comes out against it we’ll have to alter the theory or start over from scratch. Now the million dollar question is What is evolution? Well it’s both fact and theory. Evolution is fact in that organisms have been observed to change through successive generations plus speciation events have been observed in laboratories numerous times. That is fact aspect the theory is the how or why ergo Darwin. Now gravity is also fact and theory, one can show the fact behind it every second of every day just by let’s say dropping your bowl of cornflakes Voilà! it falls to the ground. The theory is why it falls now interestingly enough we don’t have really any hell of an idea how, several physicists though have hypothesized things like bending of space. But the fact is the theory of evolution is on the order of many magnitudes more well understood, tested etc. than gravity now how’s that for some food for thought. Anyway that’s my .02 cents
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abe chutmarani sale sab………..mailko delete kia hain kya…..sale randio ke aulad. oooooo…ooo..ooo.oo.o
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After wading through all the verbal carpet bombing taking place over on the aforementioned miami herald article, I see no end in sight.
The willfully ignorant feel safe and secure with their faith, antthing else is bad.
they “know” that they are morally superior to us critical thinkers because they have faith.
The secularists(?) just cant understand why they cling to their faith in the light of overwhelming evidence. They see it as a lack of education.
Maybe they are both right…or wrong. I dont hold enough pretty pieces of stamped paper to even touch this argument. BUT, I will say this: Our children believe what they are told to believe. Tthey have it tempered when they come home, go to church, play video games, etc. But in the end, what they are taught, and the opinions of the peiple they care about are everything.
I say remove evolution completely from high school. They only spend a short week on it anyway, and most kids struggle to even stay awake for it. I see ID having the same effect. Saveit for college, when people who WANT to know can learn the facts.
Let the ignorant stay ignorant, we will always need someone to flip burgers, after all, if thats where you end up, it’s god’s plan right?
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@neo-noodly convert,
The best reason to teach evolution is to destroy many of the lies that religion has put forth, thereby diminishing the negativity of religion and greatly expanding the happiness and accomplishments of humanity. If “only… a short week ” is spent on evolution, then that should be changed to – until everyone understands it, with regular repitition just to make sure.
I’ve seen the preacher and the damage done, Fizzmick
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Science deals with complexity and order only. Whenever origin is discussed the realm of science is no longer a part of the conversation. Origin relates to philosophy, theology, or cosmology. Hence, Darwin’s “Origin of a Species” is not a science but a philosophy or cosmological view.
In fact, Ben Franklin had learned how to harness electricity and invented the lightning rod. Numerous experiments took place testing inanimated tissues, shocking them then observing reflexes. Mary Shelley wrote the horror story “Frankenstein” in 1825 commentng on these experiments. In 1832, Darwin had his evolution enlightenment. It seems to me that Darwin was riding on the wings of fantasy not science.
It is a shame that so many people today believe in a false science and understanding of the natural.
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Two separate points, hopefully fast:
First, I second Fizzmick; do we have good addresses to write (respectfully…) to (…to which to write?), re Florida creationism?
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Second, quite some few Pastafarians seem to have a very firm grasp of some of the nittygritty that gets scrambled in “technical” debates with ID-ers; Wench Nikkiee comes to mind immediately. I watched a “NOVA” program as a dropped-jaw technical ninny the other night: it revolved around a large Turkish family in which many of the children walked on their hands, rather than upright. Before it was done, we were led thru evolutionary genetics, how research on such an issue is done and what kind of theories (….er, hypotheses…) are developed and can be checked. It ended with me – a big, tough pirate – a little teary because of the hope and kindness that materialized in the awful situation. Anyway, pointers to good educational materials from knowledgeable folks out there would help! Wench N. has already noted some….
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There needs to be a bigger campaign to highlight the proper meaning of “theory”.
In science, a theory is a higher level of knowledge than fact. Facts are stuff like “the sky is blue”, “if you drop your computer out of the window it will fall” etc. Facts just are. Theories explain WHY facts happen – why the sky is blue, why the computer falls. They give facts meaning and reason.
Using the proper scientific use of the word “theory”, gravity is “just a theory” as is atomic theory, heliocentricity and many other scientific “facts”.
There hasn’t been enough effort made to get this embedded in the minds of the general public, with the effect that the creationists can shout “just a theory” and get away with it.
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Neo-noodly convert, said in part:
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“Let the ignorant stay ignorant, we will always need someone to flip burgers, after all, if thats where you end up, it’s god’s plan right?”
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I say, “Sometimes the ignorant end up in the White House.”
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Paul, on Jan 23rd, 2008 at 10:08 am, said in part:
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“There seems to be a little confusion among our Pastafarian brothers and sisters so let me lay down the facts as it were. The Scientific Method starts with facts which are observable events, objects, or what have you. Now facts are a dime a dozen: the sun rises in the east, I had cornflakes for breakfast, school buses are yellow. On their own(,) facts don’t mean much…”
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Actually, facts, themselves, do not MEAN anything. “Facts” or existing “states of affairs” have no meaning. They just are – they exist. Meaning is assigned by people.
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We might find it meaningful that event A always occurs before event B. We might infer that A causes B. That could be our theory about the cause of B. That “theory” would be how the facts of A and B become meaningful. If tests of the theory should fail to support the meaning we attach to it, then the theory will turn out to be meaningless.
Paul, your explanation was so clear and understandable that I hope everyone reads it, especially those who doubt the validity evolution as an explanation for how we got here.
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You said, “Anyway that’s my .02 cents.” I think it was worth much more than 2/100 of a cent.
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Apprentice Frederic -
I missed that NOVA but will watch it online. Kudos to you for your compassion and recognition of the “hope and kindness” that keeps many researchers plugging away at difficult problems.
You wanted suggestions about educational materials from “knowledgeable folks”. All I know is what I learned in my studies, formal and otherwise. I know I came to understand Evolution deeply enough that by my senior year at college I was smitten with its beauty, elegance, complexity, unity, and truth. Graduate work and research reinforced my wonder.
The problem with learning about evolution is that there are too many ways of approaching the subject. Molecular genetics, population genetics, molecular systematics, paleontology, ecology, geology ….. Evolution is the framework that links all of biology together and evidence from every field of biology supports the grand and great theory of Evolution.
I recommend starting at the beginning- Darwin’s Origin of the Species. After that ……I don’t know how much you want to read.
The Double Helix, Watson & Crick
A sci-fi novel: Code of the Lifemaker, James P. Hogan
And fairly arcane: Fundamentals of Molecular Evolution, Li & Graur, but rather readable: Phylogeography; the History and Formation of Species, John C. Avise.
Those last two are only if you’re very curious.
Of course Edward O. Wilson, Dawkins, and Gould are all good and you will learn from their books. To get a real grip on the theory you will have to do some studying.
Which brings me to: NOVA gets its stuff right, but a lot of science reporting gets things wrong. Sometimes it’s a little thing like calling a protozoan a virus, but sometimes its a major concept like evolution. Evolution doesn’t mean our ancestors were monkeys!
Humans are not the most highly evolved life-form that every other life form is trying to evolve into! Forgive my !!! Both of those egregious mistakes were made (in conversation with me) by elementary school teachers. Teachers, not first graders. Two different teachers obviously, one a creationist, another enlightened enough to believe in, but not understand evolution. I put my child in a different school.
Sorry so long, but Apprentice Frederic, your desire to learn has moved me to excess.
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If you ignore the law because of Christian beliefs, you are guilty of religious discrimination against Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and even atheists. This is a federal crime. Start enforcing the law and lock up a few of these morons. Board members do not have the right or the power to force Christian beliefs down the throats of others.
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I have a question about this religion. I have not been able to dis-prove this FSM so I am converted. My question is like any good religion there must be some type of power structure. What does it take to be a pirate? Are there different levels of pirate hood? How are these levels earned if there are levels?
Thanks
Hammer
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interesting.
a theory is something that hasn’t been proven yet, right?
umm, creationism isn’t proven. No religion is set in stone. The Bible was written by men, sinning men, mind you. The word of God needs to be interpreted in order to be written down.
I don’t understand why our Gospel is any different…
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MrMiami, please get your facts right. Darwin wrote the “Origin of Species”, not the “Origin of Life.” The problem he was addressing was how, after life began (by whatever cause), life diversified from original simplicity to the observed multitude of different living forms. His solution to this question was evolution by natural selection. He backed up his proposal by tremendous and intricate observations, made by himself but also by others. This factual support was one of the things that made scientist in the 19th century take evolution seriously. In the 175 plus years since then, thousands of scientists have made millions of observations, ALL OF WHICH have served to confirm the fundamental hypothesis. Now, it might not have turned out this way. One pleistocene rabbit fossil would have made (and, in theory, still could make) the whole thing come crashing down. That is what makes evolutionary theory scientific, and why ID (and pastafarianism) is not scientific but rather religious.
I’m not sure what Ben Franklin (an A list scientist in the 18th century) or Mary Shelly have to do with Darwin.
Respectfully,
–Tom C.
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@ All,
I have recently visited the florida citizens for science website and discovered that the situation is getting worse by the day. I am not sure is exactly how big of impact we can make but I think it is important we organize a campaign, perhaps in conjuction with other like-minded organizations, to address this issue before it takes firm hold and spreads through the nation. Thank you!
RAmen to all!!!
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@ Hammer,
I have been visiting this site for a about a year and far as I can tell there are no levels or rank structure. I believe we are all equally important in his noodly embrace. Welcome aboard!
RAmen!!
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@DNAbled,
Many, many thanks! His Very Noodliness has touched me thru you….I’ll be busy for a while!!!!
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TOM, Darwin’s intent was to show the origin of life through speciation. Natural selection is a naturalistic axiom he presented in support of his theory. His theory, when when regressed, naturally takes one to the conclusion of the origin of life. At this point, many believe there was a spark that caused a protoplasmal global to become life much in the same fashion that Mary Shelley wrote about sparking inanimate tissue into the life of Frankenstein. This was the science of the times and the science fiction horror stories that ensued due to Franklins discovery of how to harness electricity.
Belief in speciation, depends on your worldview and how one looks at activities in the metaphysical realm. In general, molecular machines or nano-technology goes to the DNA strand to obtain instructions. These molecular machines then endow biological life. Evolutionist believe that DNA is a blueprint for life for these machines. Over time, the blueprint is adjusted in support of the process of natural selection. The chicken and egg question is a problem in this view. Did life come first or did these molecular machines exist first? Another problem is if the molecular machine becomes irreverisbly damaged it cannot simply repair itself then return to its animated state. The known natural process of enthropy is upheld.
Non-evolutionist believe that DNA is a pattern makers template and not a blueprint. In this view, information is contained not only within the DNA strand but is also applied to DNA. This extra information includes timing, duration, and sequencing of the genes firing and chromosomes attaching. By adjusting the timing, sequence, or duration of a gene firing different species and features will form.
The main point of contention between the two arguments is the origin of all this information. Science cannot explain where information originates. So the problem we humans are confronted with is the limits and truth of science. Is speciation an honest natural process? Or are the species the outcome of a DNA template in which a patternmaker controls the sequencing, firing, and timing of the process?
Another major point of contention is the notion of Randomness. Evolution relies on this as a natural phenomenon since it is the driver of evolutionary change. Non-evolution proponents do not believe randomness exist as a natural phenomenon.
Both Evolution and Non-Evolution arguments are philosophies that use a kind-of-science to explain their view point. If one or the other is taught then both need to be taught. Once again science only deals with complexity and order. Humans need to be honest about their science too.
Clearly, Darwin’s cosmological views crept into his science. In my view, the schools are doing a tremendous disservice to our future generations by not training them with the proper appreciation for both the art and the science of the natural.
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hey where do I email these people about adding these much needed clarifications to things like gravity? if i had the gospel on hand I would quote but isn’t our main issue with people who think like this that they don’t go all the way? I say we do a mass email campaign about theory vs fact. The wikipedia article has a nice talk page for it that people can be directed to, there’s only slim discussion of provability but those who brought up ID/evolution being invalid were blathering lunatics (and unreadable, further proving the point).
so do we have some email addresses?
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