I’m sorry to come off strong and all but as my school we have believers that follow this. I dont mind in what you believe in for all seriousness BUT the pictures, some are a mockery that you are apperntly trying to put on catholics,jews,lutherians,e.t.c. We dont blast on your religion DONT BLAST ON MINE OR OTHERS! You guys want to be taking serious? well then do it proffessional..
-chris
Connect with other Pastafarians
Propaganda Buttons
Add these buttons to your site:
RSS Feeds
Support the Cause
The Church is funded entirely by your purchases of FSM merchandise. Thank you for your support.
Purchase the Gospel
An elaborate spoof on Intelligent Design, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is neither too elaborate nor too spoofy to succeed in nailing the fallacies of ID. It's even wackier than Jonathan Swift's suggestion that the Irish eat their children as a way to keep them from being a burden, and it may offend just as many people, but Henderson, described elsewhere as a 25-year-old "out-of-work physics major," puts satire to the same serious use that Swift did. Oh, yes, it is very funny. -- Scientific American
@Eric
I’m going to look through it for “I”s and “My” and imagine changes and see what that does. What was the other typo or misspelling? I guess being a teacher would account for the textbook feel maybe. I was thinking that ‘ramble’ doesn’t describe it as well as ’stream of consciousness’.
I hadn’t though of the title as threatening, because I though of it as defensive. I’m merely trying to argue that it is possible for an atheist to be moral not that ‘all non-atheists are not moral’, but as you say even if it does seem threatening, I got to keep it. :-)
Thanks for your comments
@Captain NoBeard Scallywag
I see what you are saying. I have two parts to be argued against. That the atheist has no base for a moral structure and that even if he had a base there would be no good reason to be good. You are right that the first is easily dealt with and maybe I should have done that early on. Still, it is fitting nicely into the next chapter so I think I’m going to leave it there.
And I see your point that we could still be good people because of our intentions even though the results may not be that great. The theist could then argue, that if we are good people and there is a mechanism known to assure that our good intentions turn into good results, then ignoring that mechanism, would be irresponsible, and thus we would not be good people. But of course we have to have reason to believe that that mechanism really works. The theist may however claim that the mechanism is KNOWN” through faith.
From the theist’s point of view we may be well intended enough, and thus good people in the intentional sense, but not good people in the sense of doing things that make a better world. But as you suggest, the theist has a problem with knowing which God and which rules to follow, but they rarely acknowledge that, claiming that “faith” is sufficient justification, a rather peculiar contradiction, and to point out the contradiction is rarely helpful in the argument. Arguing with educated theists is a different enterprise presenting arguments to the average person. I think I’m trying to do a persuasive job with the latter. I think I’ll have chapter 8 up later today, pacific US time.
@Ramen
“Catch what I’m saying?” That you like presenting your arguments in sarcastic mode? I’m like that sometimes. :-)
I have no problems with people bashing atheism, if they bash it with good reasons. My claim is that there are no good reasons to bash atheism and I’m prepared to defend that position. However we may find some good reasons to bash some religions. We will see. It will primarily hang on the reasons, and being rational people we can assess the arguments in the open and let the chips fall where they may.
@Everyone
Moving right along. I finished chapter 8 faster than I thought. It’s up now.
http://homepage.mac.com/billtomlinson/TMA
@Captain NoBeard Scallywag
Another thing I wanted to emphasize is that your argument is a good reason why a theist should believe in an objective morality but doesn’t address why an atheist should. I try to offer an argument for that also.
@ Eric
“I hope to see it finished some day soon.”
I’m on a roll now. I hope to have a first draft done before my girlfriend comes home in 18 days, with you guy’s help of course. :-)
The typo I found earlier was an “are” instead of an “our.”
In the beginning of the 8th chapter it says: “we may which” but I think you intended “we may wish”.
In the sixth paragraph of the 8th chapter, it says: “Thus God would know, for instance, whether not ” and I think it should be “whether or not.”
I really liked this newest chapter because I am in the middle of an ongoing argument with my brother on how religion is “good” because it gives “stupid people” morals. I argue that Religion is a weapon usable by the masses to get their means done that we can seriously do without and that we can find morals without looking to the “ten commandments.” The 8th chapter is starting to culminate all of the previous ideas into one.
I can’t wait for the next chapters. Good luck!
hey jackass go read the pages of hate mail
“I’m sorry to come off strong…”
Actually you come across as week and feeble.
.
“…but as my school…”
Hold on! Are you saying you are your own school? Is that a metaphor for something, like ‘my body is a temple’? Do you encourage underage kids to enter you? What the fuck are you talking about?
.
“…we have believers that follow this.”
What FSM? Well good for them.
.
“I don’t mind in what you believe in for all seriousness…”
Sorry you lost me. Seriousness has nothing to do with us!
.
… BUT the pictures, some are a mockery that you are apparently trying to put on catholics, jews, lutherians, e.t.c.”
We don’t need to mock those religions. They do it themselves, we just point it out.
.
“We don’t blast on your religion…”
Yes you do!
.
“DON’T BLAST ON MINE OR OTHERS!”
Just try and stop me!
.
“You guys want to be taking serious?”
I doubt most of us care.
.
“well then do it proffessional..”
Well we would, but the idea of putting the fear of our god into small children doesn’t appeal to us. Nor does killing non believers. That’s just the crazy sorts we are.
@Eric
Thanks Eric
I really appreciate your help and your encouragement. I hope to have another chapter done today, but we will see. Off to make those changes now. Thanks again
@Eric and Captain NoBeard Scallywag and anyone else interested.
Well, again, I am cooking. Chapter 9 is up and I welcome criticism. I hope you find them as important as I do. I know there is a sense in which these thoughts are not truly profound and that everyone really knows this stuff after thinking about it, but the more I think about it the more obvious it seems.
I’ve seen strong hints of my proposal in everything from advice columns to movies. I just thought it might be nice to make it very explicit.
Be kind and respectful. It’s everywhere.
Anyway,
The Moral Atheist: http://homepage.mac.com/billtomlinson/TMA
Ramen
@billtomlinson Jan 3rd, 2008 at 11:04 pm: “…
The Moral Atheist: http://homepage.mac.com/billtomlinson/TMA
Ramen”
.
Bill, could you PUHLEESE change that background of yours in something more eye-friendly, like flat-out light grey? That relief makes the letters dance and hide, or else it’s my eyes…
@Jean Bart and others.
Jean sent me an email suggesting that my background on the site made the doc hard to read. I responded by putting up another version. http://homepage.mac.com/billtomlinson/TMA2 . In the future I will also include a downloadable MS word version.
Thanks for taking a look.
@Bill
I am fairly new to the site, but have been having a great time here. I agree that the moderation is putting a damper on things.
.
I have just begun reading your book, and so far I am finding it excellent. Since you are looking for editing help, I have a few comments.
.
I agree that the title might be a little off-putting. I think much of your target audience is made up of theists on the brink of discarding theism. Since most theists have it drilled into their head from a young age that “atheism” is a scary and evil thing, your title might stop them from picking up your book in the first place. I would suggest changing to a title that might appeal to that audience. I, alas, don’t know what that title should be, but I am thinking someone here can come up with just the thing. “Chicken Soup for the Questioning Soul” or “Morality for Dummies” would have serious copyright issues, but it would be nice to find something equally catchy.
.
Secondly, I think that “I” and “my” references are entirely appropriate in your introduction, since you are talking about your purpose in writing the book. But then not in the rest of the text.
.
And last, I see an awkward wording at the end of the introduction: “I care about the quality of life for humanity. I believe religion, especially religion based upon an afterlife, is a serious threat to this caring.” I don’t think that the religion of others threatens your “caring”, I think it threatens the “quality of life”. So you may want to reword this.
.
I’ll keep reading more when I get a chance. I love the idea of asking for editing help here. If I ever get around to writing my book, I’ll have to use this same idea.
.
RAmen
@Bill
I see where you think that this stuff might seem “obvious” but it would only come obvious to those who have actually sat down to think about these things. I was not as enlightened into thought like previous chapters but it did bring up good arguments, such as “why do people do good things?” Questions like these can be assessed although there is no one right answer.
I liked your idea of what “good” is. I think if more people thought “I wonder how I would feel if this was done to me?” then there could be a lot nicer people out there. I was introduced to this as a child with the “golden rule.”
Keep up the insightful writing!
@Ubi Dubium
Hey there! Thanks for the help. When Eric told me about my mistake with “are” and “our” I went back and did a search on “are” to find it. I didn’t, but I found so many bad sentences that I fixed. I don’t want to go back now and re read it carefully and edit it, because that will take away some of my energy of getting my ideas down, but I do appreciate others finding problems for me. Thanks for that “quality of life” find. I’ll see what I can do with it.
I have another sentence I was trying to rework but didn’t find any good way to do it. First sentence in chapter 2 “One of the reasons that the theist’s argument that an atheist cannot be moral has appeal is because to be be moral is at least about following rules of behavior……” Too many “that”s
Sorry for all the typos guys and all the awkward sentences, but thanks for the help.
@Eric
I agree that the “golden rule” is a good tool for giving children a sense of morality and why it is important. It does have some technical problems, but probably not for the child. If you like a particular thing like peanuts and wish others would share them with you, does that mean you should share your peanuts with others? Some are allergic. So to clarify the rule would require some thoughts about ‘kinds of behavior’, or otherwise the sexual masochist is going to be treating people badly by treating them the way he would like to be treated. I don’t see how to clean it up, but as you say it is a good starting tool. Surprisingly, it came from the bible.
Speaking of the bible. I was wondering if there might have been a mistranslation over time. It is said that you should love your neighbor as yourself. This seems way too strong. It’s really not possible to love all your neighbors. Some of them make it difficult by their very nature. Besides it takes away the specialness of love. Maybe what was really meant was “Respect your neighbor as yourself” That would fit well with my proposal. Just a side thought.
Thanks again Eric for looking at my stuff.
@Ubi Dubium
P.S. You’re right. It’s not a threat to the act of caring itself. All of a sudden I don’t really like that whole paragraph. I’ll see what I can do.
Hi everyone, and especially Eric and Ubi Dubium and possibly Captain NoBeard Scallywag and Jean Bart.
Chapter 10 is Up. As usual, I welcome criticism. I believe I can benefit from that, even if I don’t like it. I hope you find it interesting. Let me know, please.
It is now all back on one page with no weird background.
http://homepage.mac.com/billtomlinson/TMA
Hello again, to Eric, Ubi Dubium, Captain NoBeard Scallywag, Jean Bart and all others who are possibly interested.
I just finished chapter 11 and hope you guys and gals have a chance to read some of it.
I’m happy with the way it’s going and looking forward to your comments. I think it’s going to end up about 90 pages. If I use large type, I could make it look like a book. :-)
Maybe I need more pictures, you know like pictures of God, Buddha (takes up a lot of room), Mohammed. That would make it popular, I’m sure.
The Moral Atheist: http://homepage.mac.com/billtomlinson/TMA
@bill tomlinson Jan 7th, 2008 at 1:06 am: “…Maybe I need more pictures, you know like pictures of God, Buddha (takes up a lot of room), Mohammed. That would make it popular, I’m sure.”
.
You’ll never get the Jews nor the Muslim to give you pictures of their god, I’m afraid. But since it sin’t exactly a deities’ catalog you’re writing, that wouldn’t be much of an issue. Hindu Gods are very decorative, and the multple armed take up a lot of space too, especially when they hold something in each hand:
http://www.sanatansociety.org/hindu_gods_and_goddesses.htm
Since they come in various avatars, your book could become quite voluminous!
Roman and Greek gods are space-taking too, but they didn’t make it into our era in colour. Could make the book more classy, of course, since they’re more related to art, whereas the Hindu gods have a tiny bitsy kitschy side (outside India, that is: the Hindus themselves aren’t bothered by that aspect).
Front cover: a classy merge (morph) between a Greek (or Roman) and a Hindu god!
Back cover: an African god. Not to state that Africans are lesser than others, but to frighten the reader who closes the book after reading!
.
Always to be found for typed nonsense, I say
.
RAmen!
I finished reading it last night and I thought that this chapter was very though provoking, for me at least. I started creating scenarios thinking to myself whether truth is relative.
Well you can of course publish a book with the size font that you want but I wouldn’t go over size 18 but I’m not sure.
You can put pictures, that would work to fill up some space. I’m having trouble thinking of more filler-options. Lol. But the book of course does not have to be the size of the bible for any kind of relevance or factuality. Hey, with less pages it might cost less to print. Lol
I wish I could have some constructive criticism but I’m at a loss at this moment. Keep up the good work, Bill!
@Jean Bart
I was really joking about the picture of Mohammed, since that brought about a stir a while back, I thought I could be a little shocking. That cover idea is kind of fun though. We’d have to have a picture of FSM someplace too. :-)
Might be fun to have a book with pictures of all the gods of all religions, all that would allow it, that is. But I bet it’s been done (I say before I go to the internet and check)
@ Eric
Thanks again for the encouragement. I do need it a bit. It keeps me going to see that someone cares. You could think in terms of comments like ’such and such’ was unclear or needs to be expanded. This could be helpful.
I looked back at the earlier chapters this morning and they aren’t as bad as I thought I’d remember them to be. In all honesty, I don’t believe a small book is a bad idea. Most books, in my opinion, are too long. They usually could have said everything that they needed to say in about 2 chapters, but maybe that’s just my taste.
@Everyone interested.
I just finished chapter 12 and it’s up. My posts get buried sometimes here because the moderator seems to do mine first, probably because I live in U.S. time zone. So please check back here every day or two. I will continue to post at least every other day.
cya
The Moral Atheist: http://homepage.mac.com/billtomlinson/TMA
billtomlinson@mac.com
yeah come on you know the religion ‘rules’ - youve got to do it ‘professionally’ like all the other religions. didnt you do the ‘how to express yourself and your religion professionally’ course? how can you expect people to believe your ideas about faith and the afterlife if you dont wear a suit and carry a briefcase?
(PS. im actually christian, and yes everything above is written with extreme sarcasm)
“…BUT the pictures, some are a mockery…”
Uh, those pictures in which geebuz has been replaced with the FSM aren’t snapshots of actual events.