Okay, so I know you’re probably not even going to read this, but I had to express myself.
First, a bit of my religious background. I was raised a Baptist, slowly came to realize that I didn’t believe a word the Bible says, and became Wiccan for two years. Then I had a “long dark night of the soul,” more commonly known as existential crisis, during the course of which I became agnostic. However, my closest friends are two devoted Catholics, an atheist, and another Wiccan. I do not make fun of or demean their beliefs, and they do not make fun of or demean me. None of us attempt to convert anyone, although we are willing to share information if asked for it. I am not sure what I think about the Kansas School Board issue, as it concerns the definition of science as well as faith, but I do know that even if I do not agree with some of my friends, I would never tell them they are being illogical.
Recently at my college, a spoken word artist performed. He was also agnostic, and one poem he wrote in particular spoke to me. He compared God to Diet Coke, saying that Diet Coke helps him get through the hard times in the same way that God helps others. So why take that away from people? The majority of Christians aren’t hurting anyone, are they? If their beliefs help them get through their lives without the despair I feel everyday due to my doubts, why ridicule them for it?
If you have actually read all this, thank you for your time. A reply, if you have time to write one, would be appreciated, but you do not have permission to repost my words anywhere.
Sincerely,
Z.E.
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An elaborate spoof on Intelligent Design, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is neither too elaborate nor too spoofy to succeed in nailing the fallacies of ID. It's even wackier than Jonathan Swift's suggestion that the Irish eat their children as a way to keep them from being a burden, and it may offend just as many people, but Henderson, described elsewhere as a 25-year-old "out-of-work physics major," puts satire to the same serious use that Swift did. Oh, yes, it is very funny. -- Scientific American
I can’t see why Z.E. would write us? Is he/she mocking our religion? We haven’t said anything bad about anyone. We just want to live with our beliefs in peace. RAmen.
Ps. “…but you do not have permission to repost my words anywhere.” That’s a bit naive, considering the huge hate-mail section.
That’s messed up. He/She was respectful and asked not to be published and you did anyway. If it was some wackjob saying “fuck you heathens” every 12 words that would be one thing, but this was a more articulate criticism, come on Henderson.
In response, FSMism is a direct result of the Kansas School Board thing. It IS NOT an issue of Science and Faith as you say. The IDers tried to make Faith an issue of Science alone. Inserting Faith into the Science classroom is not acceptable, Science has standards, and everything must be testable, observable, and requires evidence.
The reason FSM promotes ridicule is because it is a powerful tool. Atheism has stood silent far too long as Christianity has taken a strangle hold on America, the Kansas thing made us realize just how far it has gone and it’s time to fight back. That is all.
God has been shoved in my face for so long that I can do nothing but knock it, he, she, them. (depending on your particular delusion) You may not attempt to convert, but the OVERWHELMING majority of fundies in this world are doing just that, in our public schools, our streets and now our places of government. The more you sit back and say “its not that bad” the worse it will get. WAKE UP YOU LITTLE LAMB. sorry for the rant.
RAMEN
Diet Coke really is a good comparison for being an agnostic. Much like god, the coke poisons people. Drinking Diet, like sitting on the fence of religion, still poisons you, but has a different name and a different taste.
yep we aren’t going to read it… :P
So are you saying that God and Diet Coke are equal, or that we should make fun of Diet Coke? I think that you don’t get what Pastafarianism is all about. Its about the truth. We are not trying to “hurt” people, but instead tell them that there is another way. Follow the FSM.
They are not hurting peoeple? Have you ever heard of the Crusades, The spanish inquisition, the salem witch trials?
The fact of the matter is that we live in a society where church and state are supposed to be divided, but at the same time xtian lunatics intent on saving the unwilling creep more and more into our secular society.
And the fact of the matter is we are done with all their hypocritical ways. They preach forever about their morals, and the great things they have done, but at the same time they violate their own damn commandments. Supposed holy men molesting little boys! and then because faith is waining the church goes out and protects these monsters because they are short handed.
If i want bad life advice from a hypocrite i would rather take it from some harmless spaghetti than a Hypocritical monster!
If the world was divided into people who have faith and never do crimes, and atheists that do nothing but break the law i would try to convert the entire world in a heartbeat. But it’s not that way!
When was the last time you saw an atheist:
Blow up a building?
Hijack a plane?
Start a holy war?
Faith doesn’t make you a good person.
Hmm…not too bad, but Z.E. doesn’t stick to the topic….FSM is about not mixing faith with science. Anything else is a matter of someone’s perception. That’s what I think……
Hey Z.E.
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True, simple mockery rarely is the most elegant way of making a point, but reductio ad absurdum can be.
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I would say that that exactly is what our prophet Bobby - touched by his noodly appendage - has done. Admirably and lightheartedly.
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Believe what you want: whatever floats your boat: If you are certain it makes you happy, go for it.
What us pastafarions can’t abide is fake ’science’ used for purposes of religious endoctrination.
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Can you agree with on that point?
Dear Z. E.:
The point is that the Christians on the Kansas School Board were harming people, by attempting to introduce religiously-based speculation into science classes. If they get equal time, then other equally valid theories, such as FSM, also deserve equal time. Most Christians don’t want to ruin science education; we’re not talking to them.
Ramen
Why believe in God if all the reasons no longer fit?
Z.E. you will be surprised at the number of pastafarians that will read your message and take the time to reply to it.
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If you looked around carefully you must have realised that we do not make fun of other religions for the sake of it. We do however make fun of some “retarted” (spelling mistake intended) followers of said religions after they post here their usual amount of hatred.
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You might perhaps consider the possibility of pointing out to your religious friends some of the illogical constructions of their respective religions without ridiculing them or trying to convert them (friends should help each other).
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For me religion can act as mental crutches (same analogy as your coke and god). Some people need them to be able to move but it is a lot better if one does not. I would rather prefer to try helping people to “walk without crutches” than pretend that these do not exist out of fear of upseting them.
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Ramen
I have read your letter, and you seem an intelligent person. Yet you have misunderstood. We do not try to ridicule their beleifs, but merely do not want others to be bothered with them. I have nothing against people praying in a church/synagoge/mosque/underground cave full of demons. But if they bother others with it, I have only a single answer to them: S.T.F.U. If you want to beleive, no problem. If you want others to beleive, drop dead please.
1: Gold
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2: Is forcing every school child to drink Diet Coke a good idea? What if they are allergic to high fructose corn syrup?
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3: The Kansas school board deal is kind of the main reason for this site (the site, not the religion, we have always been here).
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4: The Kansas thing doesn’t involve the definition of faith, just a simple “hey, this isn’t science, we shouldn’t teach it in science class” would suffice.
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5: Thank you for writing a concerned criticism that isn’t hateful, poorly written, or containing excessively stupid arguments.
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6: Why are you so sure we are demeaning christianity and not the other way around? (P.S. look at the stacks of hate mail/death threats).
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7: “The majority of Christians aren’t hurting anyone, are they?” The majority of mosquitoes aren’t hurting anyone, are they? Does that mean I should just wait to get Malaria/West Nile virus/whatever else they’ll give me? The ones that do hurt, hurt a lot. And I would say the majority of christians are hurting everyone through the elections.
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8
You may not want to talk about it and that is fine, but we do and we do it here because it is (as far as I know) the best place to talk about it. Christians (or any other religion) don’t have to read it but they can if they want.
Z.E.
You touched on the pertinent issue for a second there and then lost it. The entire foundation of FSM concerns what should be taught in public science classrooms. You may consider yourself Baptist or Wiccan or Agnostic or whatever, but if you don’t know what science is, this debate does not concern you. The fact is, Intelligent Design cannot be tested in the rigorous way scientific hypotheses can and it therefore, IS NOT science. Sure an “Intelligent Being” could have created the world just as a Flying Spaghetti Monster DID create the world.
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People who need god, other spirits, or Diet Coke to get through life can do so without us getting in the way…that is, unless they also need school children learning scripture in the place of science, then they have a problem and advocates such as us step up to the plate.
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So, Z.E., you don’t know where you stand on the whole Kansas School Board thing….can you tell us where you stand on evolution? If you have done any reading, you’ll know the concrete evidence that has come to light through laboratory, paleontological and archaeological research and you’ll know that to deny the antiquity of the earth and the random nature of life is to deny all scientific progress.
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P.E.T.
Hey Z.E.
Can’t knock god if you don’t believe in his/her existence; I believe it’s a knock on the people who create god in their mind because they need it, IMO.
I’m new to this site and I caught it in my search for company as an atheist. I was raised Catholic; school and all. I doubted when I was in 6th grade and was looking at different religions.
They all have common threads; the most common of which is that there’s a better place for you to go when you die. I believe it’s six feet under, so I try to make the most of my life while I’m here.
We’re all entitled to believe what we do. If you don’t like the parody of FSM then just don’t go there.
Have a good day!
Z.E.
I would guess you aren’t terribly well acquainted with the premise behind FSM. The argument being made is that if ID or Creationism is reasonable fodder for a science class, then all creation theories, including FSM should be taught along side it. All we Pastafarians are asking for is equal time to other creation theories. I’m not much of a soda drinker, but if I were, Pastafarianism would be my Jolt.
Apologies for the length of this but:
The only people we in any way ridicule, Z.E., are those who begin by coming onto this website and respond violently to the information they read on it. Then we will point out the illogicality of their position. It is not their overall religious faith that we wish to challenge, but close-mindedness wherever we find it.
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If someone’s belief system is that there can only be one true way, everyone else is wrong and needs to change their minds, and that thinking or questioning is dangerous and forbidden then it becomes much more than a personal belief that does no harm to them. Instead, it causes harm to society as a whole by diminishing the capacity for ideas and technologies to evolve over time.
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Nobody on here has any issue with the majority of Christians, or members of the multitude of other religions around the world, holding beliefs that they find comforting to them personally. As long as they do not attempt to impose through threats those beliefs either on us or on younger members of society who may not have learned to think critically and consider different sides of an argument. This is why we object collectively to the teaching of Intelligent Design as science, and why many of us will object personally to the dogmatic teaching of religion.
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Any society where the majority of people are brought up in a fundamentalist, evangelical tradition will slowly deteriorate over a couple of generations into a society lacking the skills that will be vital for survival in the 21st, or 22nd, century. If the majority of a population cannot think creatively, for themselves, then there can be no way forwards.
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Whilst I may personally believe that all religions were formulated for one of 2 purposes (either an extended form of Just So stories attempting to explain how the world around functions, or a way of controlling people by telling them that the bogeyman will get them if they don’t behave), I do not spend my time telling people with a personal religious belief every single reason why that belief is illogical. When someone wishes to use their belief to impose a way of not only behaving but also thinking onto other people then I will speak out. In person, I may avoid the subject of religion, because you will never change the mind of any strongly dogmatic individual. Online, however, their words are maintained in perpetuity (or until the server breaks), and if they promote fallacies which are not refuted, other people may perceive their comments as truth. If individuals on here are aware of clear inaccuracies, whether in the ’scientific’ arguments provided by ID-ists, or in biblical scholarship and contradictions identified by a number of the regular prolific posters on here, then it is a duty to point this out. If we achieve nothing else, we can at least ensure that anyone who visits this site in search of information, or looking to ridicule rather than convert us, is able to read counter-arguments from Pastafarians alongside the standard creationist points. Then we’re getting somewhere close to a society where people learn how to weigh up evidence for themselves.
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I understand that you didn’t want to have your message posted, and opened up to what you see as ridicule, but in nearly every case people on here respond in the manner used in the orginal post. You didn’t ridicule or insult the FSM or his follwers, or condemn us to hell whilst at the same time offering to pray for us. I hope you will be pleasantly surprised at the debate that is bound to follow on here (and may already have started, but I probably won’t see anyone else’s comments until tomorrow). Ridicule is only used where it appears nothing else will get through.
“Okay, so I know you’re probably not even going to read this, but I had to express myself.”
Of course we will read this. We read just about everything we are sent.
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“First, a bit of my religious background. I was raised a Baptist, slowly came to realize that I didn’t believe a word the Bible says, and became Wiccan for two years. Then I had a “long dark night of the soul,” more commonly known as existential crisis, during the course of which I became agnostic.”
A lot of people on this site have gone down this path; we understand that it can be hard to breake away from what has been drilled into your head as “divine truth”, its ok.
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“However, my closest friends are two devoted Catholics, an atheist, and another Wiccan. I do not make fun of or demean their beliefs, and they do not make fun of or demean me.”
That’s good. Most of the religious types who send us hate-mail tell us that we are gay and are going to burn it hell, often they threaten to violate are arse holes with inanimate objects That leads me to think a lot of them are repressed. We also get a few Christians like your friends who aren’t part of the hell fire and brimstone brigade, ID proponents or young earth creationists. These people are treated with respect as long as they are prepared to back up their claims and opinions, those who don’t often fall victim to… well people like me who love poking holes and flaws in their so called ‘flawless’ arguments.
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“I am not sure what I think about the Kansas School Board issue, as it concerns the definition of science as well as faith, but I do know that even if I do not agree with some of my friends, I would never tell them they are being illogical.”
See this is where I’m going to educate you on something. I don’t whish to sound patronising, as you seem like a very nice person, so sorry if I come across as such.
You see the idea of Intelligent Design spits in the face of science! Evolution is a theory supported by evidence and established facts. The more we learn the more we see it being supported by more and more evidence.
ID on the other hand… is houses shit! Grate big steaming piles of it. There is no science behind it. All the ‘experts’ who back it up are shot out of the water. The evidence they put forward is continually disproved, wile they fail in attempts to disprove evolution. They are part of a movement to corrupt and destroy the secular foundations the USA is based on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
This strategy seeks to undermine science! Why? Because science not only fails to prove religion right, it disproves what is written as “truth” in holy texts exposing them as well… untrue.
This isn’t a deliberate attack (although some evangelists would try to convince you otherwise); it’s just that facts contradict what they believe in.
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That’s why ID has no place in a science class, being forced on to students as a viable alternative to evolution when it has no validity at all.
It should stay in the church were people who chose to believe it, and force their children to do the same can listen to it to there harts content.
The ID movement are very sneaky about this, constantly making up lies and spreading them until real scientist get wind of this and try to correct the damage they do. For more information see the Nova article on this site and the link to the programme itself:
http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/18/nova-intelligent-design-on-trial.htm
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“Recently at my college, a spoken word artist performed. He was also agnostic, and one poem he wrote in particular spoke to me. He compared God to Diet Coke, saying that Diet Coke helps him get through the hard times in the same way that God helps others.”
I’d say it’s more like poisoned diet coke. It will get you through the day but in the end it will only do you harm!
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“So why take that away from people?”
We don’t. Those who came here to critics us and have their faith destroyed as a result asked for it. We just want to keep science in the science class and religion is the archaic institutions it belongs in.
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“The majority of Christians aren’t hurting anyone, are they? If their beliefs help them get through their lives without the despair I feel everyday due to my doubts, why ridicule them for it?”
I refer you to the above. If you have doubts then why not read more of this site and the works of others. Better yet compare what sciences say with what religion says. I know which I have more faith in and respect for.
As for them being harmless, I think you need to look at this:
http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/Culture_War/The_American_Taliban.html
these people not only lack respect for others but they promote hate to the impressionable and tell them to doubt what they say as doubting god, and therefore a one way ticket to hell! I would also look at the history books to see the millions of lives lost because of religion.
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“If you have actually read all this, thank you for your time. A reply, if you have time to write one, would be appreciated, but you do not have permission to repost my words anywhere.
Sincerely,
Z.E.”
Well we read your post; I hope the answerers we gave are helpful. It had to be reposted so we could write the responses, so sorry if that upsets you but Bobby clearly believed that your letter deserved more than one opinion (as is the scientific way).
Pluto
PS never paint your self as a victim as you did in the opening of this letter. Remember we are not the ones who dismiss something with out even looking into it.