The Ledger reports that the majority of Polk County, Florida, School Board members support teaching Intelligent Design in addition to evolution in public schools.
It’s unclear if they’re prepared to change the definition of science. Some people are concerned that a supernatural theory will not mesh with the study of the natural world.
Board member Kay Fields said last week she wants intelligent design, which is promoted by some Christian groups, taught in science classes in addition to evolution.
“If it ever comes to the board for a vote, I will vote against the teaching of evolution as part of the science curriculum,” Lofton said. “If (evolution) is taught, I would want to balance it with the fact that we may live in a universe created by a supreme being as well.”
The board’s majority opinion is at odds with many in Florida’s scientific community who strongly support the new, more rigorous science standards, and say intelligent design lacks scientific credibility.
Perhaps Florida’s scientific community has not realized the type of genius arguments they’re up against:
“My tendency would be to have both sides shared with students since neither side can be proven,” [School Board Member] Tim Harris said.
“I don’t have a conflict with intelligent design versus evolution,” [School Board Member] Sellers said. “The two go together.”
“It crosses the line with people who are Christians,” [School Board Member] Lofton said. “Evolution is offensive to a lot of people.”
Pastafarians are concerned that the Polk County School Board is endorsing Intelligent Design, but ignoring our theory, even though it is widely endorsed by the scientific community.
I will wager that the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster can produce more academic endorsements for our theory than Intelligent Design proponents can for theirs.
My guess is that the Polk County School Board is just unaware of Pastafarianism. As a public service, I propose that we contact them, and let them know that there are other supernatural theories just as valid as Intelligent Design, primarily ours.
Contact info:
Those in favor of Intelligent Design:
Kay Fields (District 5)
Kay.Fields@polk-fl.net
863-802-5483
Tim Harris (District 7)
Tim.Harris@polk-fl.net
863-808-0005
Margaret Lofton (District 6, Chairman)
Margaret.Lofton@polk-fl.net
863-294-9076
Hazel Sellers (District 3)
Hazel.Sellers@polk-fl.net
863-533-7714
Lori Cunningham (District 2, Vice-Chairman) – undecided
Lori.Cunningham@polk-fl.net
863-512-1656
Those not in favor of Intelligent Design:
Frank O’Reilly (District 1)
Frank.Oreilly@polk-fl.net
863-647-1390
Brenda Reddout (District 4)
Brenda.Reddout@polk-fl.net
863-324-0127
You can use this link to email all 7 School board members.
Please be respectful – remember we are not criticizing their beliefs, merely pointing out that there is another, just as legitimate, theory that should be included into the curriculum. Please leave a comment and tell us about your conversations with the School Board. Thank you!
The Ledger article can be found here.
*update* 12/11/07 – Their local newspaper published a story about our campaign here.
Makes me I feel like I’m on a merry-go-round that just won’t stop. Will be having nightmares soon!
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“I will wager that the Church of FSM can produce more academic endorsements for our theory than Intelligent Design proponents can for theirs.”
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I for one wouldn’t accept that bet bobby (:))
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Why is that there are things that can’t be taught because they might be “offensive” to “some people”? I’m sorry, but this is absolutely ridiculous. The First Amendment in the US has evolved to not only keep the state out of the church(es), but to keep the church(es) out of the state as well. This is just beyond belief…and I’m sorry Ms. Sellers, but evolution and ID do not go together. If you would like to see ID taught in schools, then perhaps you and the rest of the Polk County School Board should consider instituting a religion/philosphy class for students. But keep ID out of the science classroom!! (I have strong feelings on this, as I had a science teacher in high school, who, though a very nice woman, felt it was necessary to take it upon herself to teach us why evolution is wrong.)
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I’m not too worried about this one. If they decided to mandate ID in curricula the Dover verdict would serve as a fresh and very strong precedent. However, it is a bit depressing that, despite the Dover verdict, christians won’t learn. What will it take for these lunatics to wise up?
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Awesome, now the zealots show up near where I leave. I think I’m going to have to bring them some pamplets (dressed in pirate regalia of course) about the FSM the next time I decide to head towards Orlando/St. Cloud.
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@DPG–I do agree the Dover case is some pretty strong ammo against teaching ID in the science classroom. And this is a possible change in the *state* law, not just the school district itself. Like the article said, if they don’t like this possible change in more rigorous science curriculum, they’ll have to fight it in court. Still, it’s aggravating that there are still so many people who feel the desire to mix science and religion.
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“Evolution is offensive to a lot of people.”
Then let’s stop teaching the Holocaust in history. It’s uncomfortable and offensive to some people. While we’re at it, let’s stop teaching in general. We might expose people accidentally to topics they find offensive. Let’s drop education and learning and go back to hunting and gathering.
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I still see no one has confonted these board members yet, just mabye, if we all tell them about the FSM, they might just split the class into 3 sections. ID, FSM and logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.
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Intelligent designer are merely the evolved version of the primitive creationism(es).
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“I would want to balance it with the fact that we may live in a universe created by a supreme being as well.”
Sounds like she’s open to FSMism being taught right alongside the other two isms.
~oïo~ FSM
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I feel that this board is offensive towards me. Now what?
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hunting is offensive to vegetarians. lets just gather stuff, packrats FTW
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Do we have the phone numbers for Mr. O’Reilly and Ms. Reddout? They might be interested in arguing our point that FSMism and the views on creation of religions other than Christianity be taught.
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I’m putting this in somewhat childish terms, but there is evidence all around us that we can see and touch (and smell and taste, if we’re so inlcined) that supports the scientific theory of evolution. Fossils, fruit flies, bugs in amber, peas, etc, etc, etc. We can all see this evidence if we look. Evolution is a fact.
Why is it that so many humans would choose to believe in a god or gods that can never be seen and are never heard, to the exclusion of scientific evidence supporting other ideas? Answer: because a lot of people are lazy, ignorant, irrational, and/or insane. There is no reliably recorded instance in which a deity has publicly proclaimed its presence in a booming voice, are has gone strolling down a street for everyone to see. Perhaps “the lord works in mysterious ways”, but I don’t. If god doesn’t have the decency to present itself to me objectively in all its anthropomorphic glory, then I have no reason to believe it exists. This also applies to unicorns, rational fundamentalists, and 40 foot dildos.
And by the way, there is a strong distinction between theories regarding the origin of life and evolution. Evolution is a fact (have I mentioned that?)
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While we introduce ID, why not bring in other less-than-scientific theories. We could spend tax-payers’ dollars on having our kids learn Astrology as required curiculum. Or Ether theory. Or whatever. After all, those have just as much “science” behind them as ID.
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Here’s an interesting tid bit published in WIKIPEDIA under the intelligent design entry.
Political appointees at NASA have prohibited their scientists from publicly discussing the any data which is explained by the age of the universe because it would contradict the biblical version of the universe’s age.
Further, government climatologists are forbidden from discussing their data regarding global warming because it may reference data tens or hundred’s of thousands of years old.
Don;t you feel relieved we have an evangelical christian in the white house.
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I can only imagine this is going to end up like Roe V. Wade where it will ultimately end up in the hands of APPOINTED Supreme court judges. The question is whether or not the appointer is smart enough to to nominate those who recognize the danger of blending religion and state affairs. FSM help us all!!
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I just sent them an email, voicing my opinions. I sure do hope that they read it!
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Obviously very few people in Polk County watch “NOVA”, otherwise they wouldn’t be blindly setting themselves up for complete, total public embarrassment and humiliation. They are taking up the mantle from the Kansas School Board of Laughing Stock Of America. Ironic, isn’t it, how those supposedly in charge of education have such panache for learning nothing…
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This school board should be congratulated for taking up the ID banner, and championing the right of their students to be exposed to competing viewpoints. Vive le Difference! How else can this commitment to fearless educational values be implemented?
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1. All classroom instruction should be bi-lingual, so that students can be equally exposed to both English and Spanish, free to make up their own minds as which they believe is most correct for completing assignments and use in their adult lives.
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2. Science teachers will “teach the controversy” between Alchemy and Chemistry, giving equal time to both in Chemistry units. Chemistry is merely the secular offshoot of Alchemy, which enjoyed a long and respected tenure in European history. Many notable and pious men were alchemists, which is good enough for me. In order to Leave No Florida Child Behind, students will be exposed to the periodic table of elements, but advised that it is by no means complete, and therefore, of dubious value. They will also be required to transform lead into gold for their final exam, and provided with 17th century translations of medieval occult texts as transmutation “bibles”.
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3. Music students will no longer be constrained to learn “music theory”. Since Western classical music is offensive to some, each student will have the option to construct an independent study which best conforms to his or her existing taste. Southern US composers such as Toby Keith and Trick Daddy will be given equal consideration with French elitists such as Claude Debussy or Joseph-Maurice Ravel.
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4. Math students will no longer be limited to “theories” they may find offensive, such as “Algebra” (developed by Muslims!), “Game Theory” (why are they playing games in school?), “Homology Theory” (keep our kids safe from these perverts!), “Proof Theory” (can they prove it or is it just a theory? Liberals are so stupid!).
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You know intelligent design is just the beginning. Everyone needs to realize that all scientific theories are “only theories”. Don’t we also need a theory of intelligent electromagnetism and intelligent gravity?
For EM isn’t it just as likely that AC current coming out of a generator is a result of FSM’s wrapping the armature of the dynamo shaft in his noodly appendage and imparting spin to it the same way you or I would impart spin to a yoyo.
Also since electromagnetism is only as theory, perhaps one of the Xtain fundamentalist proponents of “Intelligent Electromagnetism” will have no problem french kissing a 220v socket. Waddya think?
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I just wanna know. When are we gonna appoint Dr Zaius as Presidential science advisor?
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Intelligent design is pseudoscientific way to say “God did it”. Its like calling water Dihydrogen monoxide.
Well, I propose we change from ” The flying Spaghetti monster did it” From noddly design. Or Pasta method. Or something like that. Let them know they have competition. Oh, and one more thing. These guys actually call Inteligent design a scientific theory? WTF! You can’t read science in the bible!
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What really gets me is that, without the the science developed in the past few decades, most of the modern day luxeries that allow teaching of modern standards wouldn’t exist. And yet they still decide against teaching a proven scientific theory. Eh?
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You can have my academic endorsement. I am a physics graduate student/teaching assistant, so I can endorse both as a scientist and as an educator. Unintelligent design makes much more sense than ID, so I don’t see how they could refuse to teach UD if they agree to teach ID.
Any advice on how to write the letter to the board? I’m woefully terrible at writing, and would probably make the situation worse if I wrote it on my own.
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Of all the things in here that me balisstic about the Fundies, I think the Vitter thing is the worse. Imagie, a whore hopping, republican senator from Virginia looking to divert $100k of all of our money in a huge appropriation bill to fund a fundamentalist attempt to undermine American science education, by diluting it with this intelligent design gargage.
Using federal monies to subsidize an attempt by American primitives to force their religion down the throats of all of our children.
What a POS. Nornally, I would be tolerant to the public sexual indiscretions of this person, but maybe we should do whatever we have to to get him and Larry (Wide Stance) Craig out of our nations most deliberative body.
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Do you want to know the really weird thing about this?
My wife is Polish. She grew up in Poznan during the bad ol’ days of communism. And generally speaking, it’s hard to find a more religious country then Poland. Catholicism got it’s people through Communism and was a keystone in Solidarity. The churches are standing room only on sundays.
…Yet, the idea of not teaching science in a science class is astounding to her. She is truly scared of some of the fanatics in this country. We might be moving in the next year or so, and that’s one of the big worries. That we will end up moving to the middle of wingnut land.
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The thing you have to know is is that these ass-flying japes on the school board didn’t run on a campaign of bringing ID into the school curriculum. These people undoubtedly lied about who they were and what they would do once elected. A few years back I ran into a program that detailed how a PAC led or funded by Pat Robertson’s church (empire) counseled on how to get yourself elected to a school board, so you could ram this shit down everyone’s throat.
The key piece of advice was LIE. PORTRAY YOUSELF AS A MODERATE, CONCERNED PARENT WHO WANTED NOTHING MORE THAN TO INSURE GOOD ORDER WAS OBSERVED IN THE CLASSROOM, QUALIFIED TEACHERS AND ADMINISTRATORS WERE IN PLACE, AND GOOD FACILITIES AND TEACHING MATERIALS WERE AVAILABLE TO ALL.
Then, once elected, bring out the fundamentalist artillery. That the reason why after they get elected, show their true colors, they get defeated by landslides in the next election.
Pity our kids have to take bullets in the culture war, fired by these idiots.
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Hello, first off i’d like to say i agree ID shouldn’t be taught in school. But aren’t all of you athiests (soory Pastafarians) being equally arrogant as christians. Saying that the universe wasn’t created by an omnipotent being is equally arrogant as saying it definatly was.
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I remember a few years back, the Southern Poverty Law Center, bankrumpted a chapter of the Klu Klux Klan that incited some of its members to murder a young black man. Apparantly, they sued and won millions in Federal court, seized all that Klan assets and put the SOB’s out of business.
Perhaps some of us should investigate suing some of these ID people on school boards. If it were no longer “penalty free” to tie up public resources to debate the ludicrous proposals of these “Trojan Horse fundamentalist” board members perhaps that would chill their shit but good.
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It’s amazing… i thought this kinda stuff was just a given. sorry.. but i’m aussie, and… we’re talking about state schools?? last time that was really contested here was back in the late 80s i think…
at the moment i’m writing some article to remove Religious Education from the curriculum all together (in the sense that i doesn’t add any points to you’re end result(i dont really know what you call that in the US)) Across the board of state and private schools, letting it be taught in a purely Historical, Literary, Philosophical and theological sense. school is where you should teach kids how to think. and if the parents want to teach their kids what to think. then the onus is on them.
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@Tedd Buckland. The only point being made here is science is about deriving theories based on observing things in the natural world not extrapolating from those observations to posit truths about a realm beyond nature. I can never, ever say for sure these does not exist a realm beyond the one I observe, even if I dont think so. The point is those beliefs are not the province of science. Those teaching evolution but not ID are NOT saying “there is no God, and/or Intelligent Designer” All they are saying is that such speculations (and that is EXACTLY the correct word here) are beyond the ken of science and therefore will not be taught in a science classroom.
What is dangerous about ID is that by insisting it be taught in a science classroom , it equates what is metaphysical (speculative) thought with what is empirically verifiable scientific thought, and presents it as such to young impressionable minds. It is in effect co-opting state sponsored science education for purposes of evangelism.
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@ted buckland : contrary to the christians we pastafarians do not say that the universe was not created by an omnipotent being. What we say is we do not believe that the universe was created by an omnipotent being.
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There is a huge difference : the difference between being arrogant and not being arrogant
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Ramen
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@Ted,
There is a difference. There is solid scientific evidence for Evolution. Intelligent design, on the other hand, has no scientific evidence supporting it. The only “evidence” for ID comes from a religious text. Church and state need to remain as separate as possible.
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If Evolution is offensive to people, tough shit. The truly offensive thing is the ID proponents trying to put church stuff in schools. If they’re offended by science, they should go live in a cave, wait for the end of the world, and leave the educational system alone.
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@ted buckland: a couple small issues: everyone is entitled to a position that involves faith. The arrogance comes when you try to force your faith on others, and, worse, usurp the power of government to do it. It may or may not be a side issue that Pastafarians DO SO believe that the Universe WAS created by an omnipotent being: it just wasn’t Yahweh, it was the FSM.
@neal: both your implicit suggestions sound good to me. We might even be telling the truth by saying we were moderate, concerned parents who wanted good order, qualified teachers, and adequate facilities. And want to be treated by MD’s who have studied biochemistry rather than Bible Biology, LOFLMAO.
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some great/superpowers in history
ancient egypt: varying in strength from 4000bc to the point it was captured by the romans(alexander hardly counts)
persian empire:
history taught us they were very mean against the greek, broke apart after Alexanders conquests
macedonian
empire:
greek states at their cultural peak basicaly, lead by Alexander the great, broke apart after his death
china:
powerful through almost all of history though very small area of influence (perhaps a winning concept?)
roman empire(dictator lead):
lead by a strong leader waging war across the world and a senate that complianed about it (I believe that United states founding fathers had this in mind when they wrote the constitusion)
declined in strength in about 400ac due to a number of reasons, still open for discussion
Charles the great’s empire (early france):
almost the same as alexanders empire only in france and in the 500Ac(after the romans anyway), broke apart of the same reasons
ghengis khans emipre:
again, a great leader capturing a large chunk of land and then dies and everything goes back to normal
English empire:
often said to have gained the greatpower status with the destructon of the spanish armada of 1588, considered to have lost its leading role with the end of ww2 due to the growing might of USA
nazi germany:
gained power in 1933 due to dissent in the german population lost it in 1945 because they failed to fight of most of the world while destroying its own population
soviet union:
gained superpower status in 1945 because of the the destruction of their main enemy. It was lost at 1991 (I think) mainly because the russian president found out that he would have more power if it didn’t exist
USA:
the only superpower most consider these days, gained superpower status with the invetion of the atomic bomb.
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and now to the purpose with this brief history lesson:
what will cause the US to sieze being a superpower? history has shown us that it will inevitably happen(well, with china as an exception)
it is not likely to sieze with the death of a leader, plenty has died already and no change.
then there is the possibility the world gets mad at US and decides to conquer it.
then there is the most likely possibilites that the power will diminish over several years due to slower economical and sientific progress and fade away into the shades of history.
Now, before I appear as terrible anti american I’d like ask this:
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will it diminish faster or slower if the US is turned into a christian Iran? where religion is used as an measure to control large uneducated masses
my personal guess is that if these things decribed in OP happen on a grand scale, the illegal mexican immigrant problem would stop or possibly reverse in the matter of decades, do the future mexican taxpayers a favor: don’t let these things happen
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(I am now appearing as anti Iran but I guess there are not that whole lot Iranians that would read this, none that would take any offence anyway)
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any corrections on the historic data (or any at all) is appreciated, noone is perfect
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Ande
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@neal Dec 1st, 2007 at 2:22 am
“What is dangerous about ID is that by insisting it be taught in a science classroom , it equates what is metaphysical (speculative) thought with what is empirically verifiable scientific thought, and presents it as such to young impressionable minds. It is in effect co-opting state sponsored science education for purposes of evangelism.”
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RAmen neal
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@perna de pau Are you saying you don’t believe the FSM created everything? Blasphemy!
It seems obvious that trying to use *logic* against someone who has *faith* that God did everything AIN’T GONNA WORK. Instead, educate them about His Noodliness. They will be much more open to this line of reason, as it is their own, at which point they may begin to doubt their own beliefs.
Do what’s right and fight to get FSMism taught in public schools, don’t fight to take away ID.
I’m more likely to convince my cat with logic.. his mind is a product of pure natrual observation.
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Just dropped the school board a line.
Lacking Bobby Henderson’s fine analyical mind, and his first hand experience with divine revelation, I copied his letter to the Kansas school board, with a couple of minor changes.
Hope that helps them out.
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@ted buckland
Hello, first off i’d like to say i agree the Easter Bunny shouldn’t be taught in school. But aren’t all of you Chickenists (soory Eggatarians) being equally arrogant as Bunnites. Saying that the Easter Bunny does not exist is equally arrogant as saying it definatly does.
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*cough*cough*BULLSH&T*cough*cough*
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It is truly a strange land that many of you fellow pastafarians live in. How strange it is that in many places it seems to be up to the most unlearned to decide what to teach to others.
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A case of the blind leading the blind and also others that have vision.
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Here is something I wrote to them last night, reading it this morning did make me realise it sounds kinda similar in areas to Bobby’s original, but ah well we’ll just see if they say anything.
“Greetings,
I am writing to you after having read of your determination to bring a variety of viewpoints to your regions students, namely the teaching of intelligent design alongside evolution as part of your science curriculum. While I strongly support the belief that students should be exposed to as many schools of thought as is possible, I am concerned that despite your good intentions you may only teach your students one theory of intelligent design, when in actual fact there are many such theories. I, for example, am a member of a religion that believes that the earth, universe and all else that we see and feel was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM), and that any evidence to the contrary was set in place by Him.
We have, of course, existed since His creation of everything, but until recently we remained a secretive group. It was our prophet Bobby Henderson who first chose to reveal our presence to the world in his well known open letter to the Kansas School Board. Since becoming pubic Flying Spaghetti Monsterism (or Pastafarianism) has received a number of notable endorsements from the scientific community. However, since all science is manipulated by His Noodly Appendage, their opinions should not be overstated. Evolution itself is only an unproven (and unprovable) scientific theory, so should not be overstated and treated as more than such. As this clearly puts evolution on an equal footing to ID, we would encourage you to consider teaching FSM in your science rooms also, as ours is an equally valid theory.
You may also be interested to know that pastafarians such as myself do not believe in the conventionally established theory of gravity as perpetuated by science today, the reason for this being that once again science has managed to produce a series of observations with regard to how gravity works, but has failed to explain the cause of the force itself. We instead believe in “intelligent falling”, by which we mean that gravity as it has been observed is instead the result of FSM pushing us down with His Noodly Appendages. While it’s true that we don’t have any empirical evidence to back this theory, we choose to follow the precedent laid down by ID proponents, that to establish a theory we do not any observable or reasoned evidence, only the capability to poke holes in the established theory.
You should know however that His Noodly Name may only be preached by those wearing His chosen outfit, full pirate regalia. He becomes angry if we don’t. If you decide that you do wish to educate your students about our beliefs we would be more than happy to instruct you on how to go about this.
While there is much more I would like to say to you about our beliefs and their rightful place in your, nay, the worlds classrooms, I feel it is time to round off, and I can’t think of a better way to do so than with a quote from our prophet himself, extracted from his letter to the Kansas School Board.
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.” – Bobby Henderson
Kind regards,
*. ******, concerned Pastafarian.”
Hope I represented us right, apologies if I missed anything important.
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I wouldn’t be so quick to give Frank O’Reilly a Darwin…
“You’re talking about separation of church and state,” O’Reilly said. “I believe in intelligent design personally, but the court has ruled against it. We cannot break the law if it is set down before us.”
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I’m a danish pastafarian (RAmen!), and this hardly ever occour i Denmark (if it actually ever has), but is it a big problem in the states? And don’t the government has anything to say, or is each school independent, and can teach whatever they want?
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I have mailed the good folk at Polk from the UK, figers crossed that good sense will prevail
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RAmen, fellows.
I can’t understand how those people can claim (as they usually do) to be patriots. Because what they are doing is precisely the kind of thing that makes us in Europe think Americans are completely stupid
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“I would want to balance it with the fact that we may live in a universe created by a supreme being as well.”
I don’t remember evolution being taught as an explanation for the creation of the universe. Why do these people feel that God is being attacked by the theory of evolution? At no point do I remember my teachers telling me that there is no God because there is evolution. There is nothing that prevents these people from agreeing with it and saying “maybe God created evolution.”
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Ted Buckland, (posting Dec 1st at 12:57am) asserts that it is just as arrogant for an atheist to say the universe wasn’t created by an omnipotent being as for someone else to say it definitely was.
I’d debate the “just as” bit, especially in a science classroom, which is the point of this forum. I am with Rene Descartes; that nothing outside of basic mathematical proofs and the existence of one’s own self can be proven with any absolute certainty. But is it ‘just as’ arrogant of me to state the moon isn’t made of green cheese as to state that it is?
That said, if the Fundies are willing to qualify their god as a theory every time they preach to me then I’d be happy to qualify accepted scientific proofs as theories when I mention them.
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Actually, let me one-up my own comment.
Which is more ‘arrogant:’ to say
1) “I believe [whatever] to be true based on objective observance and standing my belief up to reasonable scrutiny and critical, empirical experimentation” or to say
2) “I believe [whatever] to be true because God told me so and if God tells you differently, either through divine revelation or through physical evidence, then God is lying to you.”
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When will people realize that evolution has stood up to a century of rigorous scientific testing by many and has been consistently proven true, while intelligent design is based upon the beliefs of the individual, can be either true or false, and therefore should not be cast in equal light?
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At least they’re a good looking bunch. It is sad that they deny their Maker and all His Carby-glory. It is only when they pass on to the next world that they will realize the error of their ways. For in death, we are all made equally stupid.
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“Evolution is offensive to a lot of people.”
So is religion to a lot of intelligent people!
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Since when did the definition of science become a democratic process? So, 7 people get to vote on what IS and what IS NOT Science? Unbelievable.
Intelligent Design/Creationism is based on supernatural beliefs and is not empirically testable or compatible with natural law, which is necessary for it to be called a scientific theory or science.
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Once more, without the paragraph tags (FSMdammit!):
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@Ted Buckland
Go get your dictionary. Do it now. If you don’t have one, then go to dictionary.com & type in the word evolution. Do you see any part in the meanings that mention anything about creation of the universe or even origins of life?
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Just in case you’ve had any trouble, I’ll give you some help:
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Evolution (ěv’ə-lōō’shən, ē’və-) n.
Biology
1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
2. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
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There. Does that make sense to you now? Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of the universe, or even the origins of life. Darwin made that blatantly clear when he named his book The Origin of Species.
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I find it incredibly arrogant of you to enter an argument without first understanding the details of the argument.
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St John the Blasphemist
Saint of Etymologies
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As an intelligent human being, and a person who has cogitated on the subject, I find it inconceivable that Intelligent Design (ID) isn’t also taught in our school’s science curriculum. (you will notice that I can spell – the sure sign of education and “right thinking” or, perhaps, a spell-checker)
Others may disagree with me, but I suspect that they are simply too afraid to face the fact that there is a greater authority and power in this universe. Perhaps it is their attempt to compensate for how truly minute the the average (non-Christian) human is in the grand design of the universe. Perhaps not. Perhaps they are simply obstinate.
Either way, I pity you if you feel the need for such self-aggrandizement. I know my place in the Universe, it is kneeling at the feet of the Creator, giving thanks, and begging for forgiveness. For it is only through forgiveness that I can be rid of these spiders that keep coming out of my skin. And the beaver gnawing at my foot. And only HE can save me from being the next victim of the lemur who is fornicating with a Honda Civic over there in the corner! Save me Jeebus! Save me!! Save meeeeeeee…
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I’m writing from Europe, where almost every scientist believes in evolution, but where many of them also belive in god. Here some first thoughts about what your message, darwinian-macroevolution-denying physician
I feel you completely misunderstood something. In theory, science could come to the conclusion of god’s existence and prove it (supposing there is one), and that would be accepted.
What is not accepted in science is explaining something with god: you can’t explain something by something else that is not proven.
And anyway, in most cases, what was thought unexplainable trough science (and was hence ascribed to god) became explainable some time later.
To come to evolution, you may find the evidence is not sufficient. But at least, there is some, and it is growing every day. For ID, there is none at all! And it doesn’t shows there is a designer, it is only built on the asumption some things cannot be explained by darwinism, although they can, so their proof doesn’t work.
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@ The Dembskist right above me (unless somebody beats me to a response)
“something scientific that is unexplainable by any scientific means”
I hope another Pastafarian knows how to respond to this, because I am at a loss. Wow, just, wow.
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My main point here is just to say that just because somebody keeps telling you that you are wrong doesn’t mean that they are out to get you, it might just mean that you are wrong.
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We should just tell these people that don’t want evolution taught in school that we could mix the theory of ID and evolution together into one class. At the beginning of the course the teacher would just explain how Adam and Eve got to gettin’ it on and then they had kids and their kids had to have incest to procreate and their kids and so on and so until all this inbreeding ended up with the caveman who is a mongoloid retarded inbred version of Adam and Eve. Then go on to real science from there. LOL, might as well since people like these on the board obviously haven’t evolved past the worshipping fire stage. And D.A.M.E.D Physician you’re a coward.
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I have emailed them with a proposal:
Dear Polk County School Board Members and whom it may concern,
I am an American who is concerned about the youth of today. My major is psychology, and I currently study at College of the Canyons in Valencia, California. I have noticed that Polk County is inclined to teaching Intelligent Design in science classes. I think this is a great idea, but it would be very biased if only the Christian Intelligent Design “theory” is taught in science classes; because of this, I am concerned. What about other religions? It would only be fair to teach their “theories” as well. Now, I politely ask that other theories such as Hindu Intelligent Design “theory”, Muslim Intelligent Design “theory”, various Pagan design “theories”, and Pastafarian Intelligent Design “theory”. Teaching the Intelligent Design “theories” of every religion would thwart possible lawsuits for unequal representation and save the school district much money in the long run. One could argue that teaching all of these would cost much money and time as well; this is very true. What I propose to you, is that Intelligent Design “theory” have a presence in society, as it is a great part of American culture, but not be taught in government-funded institutions, such as public schools. This is not true for private institutions, such as Christian schools and other private schools, however. A safer alternative would be to teach the history of Intelligent Design “theory” in a social studies or sociology class, as it is both present in history and society.
Any replies would be very welcome.
A concerned American,
Kendrick ********
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Know what, I was eating potato chips the other day, and I realized that the markings on one of the chips was the image of The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Clearly, HE has given us a sign, he is real, how can anyone say he does not exist if he engraves his image into a potato chip. Fall down and worship him. It’s a miracle. Pastalulah! Ramen!
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I was led to think that science class is about teaching our current understanding of the nature. We are supposed to learn our repeatable observations and retell it using mathematics.
I do not think anyone was teaching quantum mechanics in an 18th century science class because they believed in a wave-particle duality. It was not until the roots were well-established that this topic made it to classrooms.
If in the future it is scientifically proven that a god exists and it is accepted by the scientific community, it would be just logical for the theory of god to be taught.
It should not be expected, however, that some unproven hearsay argument to be taught as a part of science classes. Where is the evidence? Where is the proof? How did it happen? Does it contradict any of the theorems (or laws) that define our understanding of the nature? To be exact, intelligent design terribly fails this test.
Based on that, requesting Snow White and Seven Dwarfs to be taught in the science class would be just as logical.
Xenon
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Better late than never. Here is my letter:
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“Hang in there! Fight the good fight!
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We at the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (CoFSM) support those of you wishing to include Intelligent Design in science curriculum. It is only through efforts like this that we will finally be able to teach the truth in schools. Since I am certain you would never presume that one religious view would be more valid for the ID model than another, I look forward to the day when all creation stories are taught equally in classrooms: Evolution, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, CoFSM, Buddhism, Norse, Greek, Roman … well, you get the idea. For too long we have catered to the agendas of godless scientists. No more I say!
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For too long we have let them run roughshod over us with their insistence on “evidence” and “peer review”. These are nothing more than the tools they use to keep out the truth. Sure, ID doesn’t have a single bit of scientific evidence to back it, but that’s the whole point! If we let these scientists continue to have their way, they will just go right on insisting that scientific theories be “testable”. Well, they can wrap their “scientific method” in a box and ship it to China! Faith is the future of science. Evidence? We don’t need no stinking evidence!
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Today evolution, tomorrow gravity and that whole heliocentric nonsense.
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Stay strong. You are not alone.”
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-OEJ
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It is stuff like what the Polk County school board is doing that leads me to believe Xtainity is dying.
Think about it, between the explanation of the modern cosmologists about the universe being 14.5 billion years old, they explanations from the evolutionary biologist about how homo sapiens was just the last of many intelligent hominid species and he emerged a scant 100,000 years ago. They explanations of the historical scholars that no evidence exists that the jews were ever captive in Egypt, and the freak shows of the child molesting Catholic church clergy, the cruising for gays hookers and/or gsy hookers of the fundamentalist, religion is looking like it explains little and improves our behaviors not at all.
This stuff is the dying gasp of the non-rationalists, already in Europe church attendance is at an all time low, and what is happenin there will spread here. It just smells like a superstition. It feels like a con job perpetated by the “great and powerful OZ” and more and more people are wising up. A site like this would have been impossible 20 years ago, and not jusst because the internet infrastructure was not in place. Not enough people would have had their thinking in a place that would allow them to openly laugh at the preposterous claims of the religionists. We’re there now, and this snowball will only get bigger as it continues to roll downhill.
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Hazel Sellers: “Polk County teaches the state standards for all our subjects and I believe will continue to do so.”
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How fucking vague is that? Old robotron here replies to me with just that sentence. That could mean a lot of things, like, “Intelligent Design is already the state standard, and we will teach that.” or “I don’t think Intelligent Design will be taught in science class, but it would be nice.” Keep in mind, this is one of the people who supported it. Politicians sure know how to say something without meaning anything, don’t they?
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@Kendrick–you’re right; it’s a political answer. But I have no doubt that she believes ID should be part of the state standards, but is just covering her ass.
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Here’s a thought (unworkable perhaps but fun to consider):
What if all the parents who don’t like ID (hopefully the majority) insisted on taking their kids out of the science class and home-schooling them in this particular subject, just like the nutjobs do. Only this time, the science teachers would go with them. The negative publcity for the school would, or should, be a huge embarrassment and earn the board much Kansas-like laughing stock points.
Then, of course, his Noodly Appendage would step in to touch all and save the day. Boy, would I have paid attention if science class had been about pirates, beer and strippers!
RAmen
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I still don’t understand how this hasn’t become a national debate. I mean, it is very simple; what sounds the most plausible:
1. Life as we know it changes to adapt itself to the all encompasing enviromental factors it is exposed to.
2. Life as we know it was made in all its current forms by an un-identifiable, all encompasing supreme force.
3. A flying bowl of Spaghetti created all of existence after a night of keg stands on the beer volcano and partying with Chef Boyardee (who died to save our dinner.)
Simple choice for me.
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@Boarg – I think it would be possible if the parents asked for the funding for their children to be refunded, as the school gets its funding based on the number of pupils, and then hired the science teachers as private tutors. As less of the funding would be spent on admin costs (one of the parents can arrange that) they could pay for guest speakers from versus fields to talk to the children.
The school would eventually collapse and then they could build a new one.
Every ones a winner apart from the god boxes who lose out entirely!
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Greetings all. I am a newbie to the site but had to express my concern to Polk county. I just emailed them this:
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I am writing today to both congratulate and express concern over the recent decision to include Intelligent Design in the science curriculum of Polk County. I agree that children should be exposed to all sides of a scientific debate, but it is my fear you may leave out a theory that is equally as valid as traditional Intelligent Design. I am of course referring to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I’m sure you all know that the theory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster has much greater support in the scientific community than traditional Intelligent Design. You would therefor be doing a grave disservice to the students of Polk County, and science in general, if you were to leave this ever so important theory out of your curriculum.
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If you wish to include an alternative to evolution in your classrooms, you must include all alternatives. It is unfair to the students if they are preferentially taught only one, they deserve to know all the theories out there and make their own conclusions at the end.
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I trust you will make the right decision concerning what is best for the children, and not yourselves. May His Noddley appendage touch you all.
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The more I immerse myself in this the more I am convinced we are in a period much like the “Great Awakening” which happened in 1740 pre-collonial America. During that period, believers lashed back at those who pursued their secular purposes and tried to build a life independent of the prevailing religious authority. For a time it was effective, church membership in Massachusetts rose and everyone became fearful of God;s punishments. The period witnessed one of the most appalling documents every committed to paper in the history of Amnerican literature–”"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”. But after a time the movement lost steam. The trend toward secularization continued and that is why America was given a constitution as its ruling document instead of a church covenant.
In short we becam a republic instead of a theocracy because the zealots lost out in the marketplace of ideas.
This stuff will die as well, everytime religious wackos raise the issue, it becomes a freak show, church attendance is declining annually. It’s at single digit levels in western Europe and at 20 percent and dropping in the USA. In short the overall trend favors secularism, and the religious wackos know it.
It explains why they are so shrill. People tend to become shrill when they are in the process of being marginalized.
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Ramen Neal….Ramen. I think I’ll send the entire Polk School Board a link to the Judgement Day Nova program on PBS’s website? Maybe that would keep them from pursuing this at all, knowing that they are doomed to fail AND not be re-elected when it is all over.
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Knowing several of the residents of Polk County personally, I am not surprised that they embrace the school board’s bias. Intelligence and independent thinking are not the ways of the people, so teaching ID will fit in well there.
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I just sent out an email to all the board members, and all who have not should do the same. Just remember: we are not disagreeing with there beliefs, we are just pointing out that other, more tasty theorys also need to be included.
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Everyone should E-Mail them if you have not already. ALL theorys need to be included, and ours is as valid as any.
Ramen
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Polk county is seriously one county next door to me. People in Florida are retarded.
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I don’t even have to email them… I could WALK my happy behind over there in full Pirate regalia and demand that Pastafarianism be taught as well… (Sounds like a pretty good idea, actually…)
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Here is the text of the e-mail I sent to Polk Co. school board (bored?).
Dear Y’all,
It is wonderful that you have figured out how to sneak creation beliefs into Polk County schools. Intelligent design, indeed.
Hopefully, the students will learn why humans have an arm that does not work quite as well as the other, why Roger Clemens, for example, can’t pitch equally well with either arm? Humans were obviously on the short end of funding during the design process. Compared to other animals, such as dogs, humans cannot hear as well, and by comparison our sense of smell is rather numb. Humans are among the slowest and weakest creatures on Earth.. How can humans have dominion over all the animals when quite a lot of them can catch, overpower, and eat even the fastest and strongest human? Perhaps the students will also learn why most birds have better vision than any human.
If we are the product of a design process, it is more likely that the designer was an idiot, or else it was a government project..
Otherwise, keep up the good work.
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Lots of good comments here, and snarky one’s. I now think I’ll write to them, and their local newspaper, saying things more along the lines of — having carefully read the article and having spoken to religious people I know about the subject, that I fully understand the preceived need to insert fundamentalist-inspired doctrine, poorly disguised as science, into science classes. On matters of how the physical world actually works Christianity has been in retreat for over 500 years and is at a point now where it is clear that every single statement the Bible makes about how the world works, from the sun revolving around the Earth to how babies are made, are wrong. All religions get a good measure of their legitimacy from their ability to explain natural phenomenon, …. and so on, ending with some of the best comments made here, and a link to this discussion.
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God bless you all! I was playing basketball and drinking some brews with FSM just the other day and he agrees with all of you. I, on the other hand, do not. How can you deny the TRUTH? It is written, in the good book that God created the world in 7 days, about 3.5 million days ago. Everything that is written in a book is the God’s truth, no prophet would be dishonest about something as serious as a book written by godly men (the holy spirit took over these primitive men – read your bible to support this). The bible is the word of God, not man, so you can trust it with your life (or go to hell – its your choice).
My brother, Mohammad, also agrees with me. Buhhda still doesn’t care either way but we are working on him.
Not all of us lesser gods were around 3.5 million days ago, we had a nice fishing trip and dad created the Earth. We were all pissed off cause it was going to be a joint-venture. I remember that day and regret having to get the universe’s biggest bass (it was a space bass that weighed 3442 gibbots – a heavenly unit of measurement). OH, i am still pissed about that cause I had some good names to hand out. I came back early cause I remembered that I left the iron on and didn’t want to burn down my hut (when your a deity you have to make sure your robe has no wrinkles or people won’t belief you). I found dad on that 7th day enjoying his creation and we got into a big fight. That is when we decided to kill me on this new planet in order to please this newly created man. What an jerk my dad can be if you question him.
So I urge you to disband your belief that evolution is real, it is not! I was there and saw it all. Now you can try to prove me wrong but remember that you will go to hell if you do (i am a god -haaha). So just delete all these files and cancel your domain names because its not working, nor ever work.
Go with God, not man
amen (not ramen you blasphemers)
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Sent just now to the Polk Co School Board…
Hello,
It’s interesting to me that a majority of you support teaching Intelligent Design (ID) in addition to evolution. As school board representatives your collective opinion is important enough to make headlines and presumably to set policy, but I doubt that many self-respecting science teachers would even half-heartedly teach ID. I certainly wouldn’t. Standards or no standards, a teacher never has more autonomy than when his/her door is closed and his/her students are paying attention. My tone of voice and eye-rolling could easily discredit the ID theory in the eyes of my students even if I agreed to teach it.
It may provide you some comfort, however, that I often remind my students of how evolution is driven by the “G-enerator O-f D-iversity” (subtle, right?). I challenge students to consider that nature, like matter, probably couldn’t have been set in motion without having been acted upon by some force. But, I’d never suggest that God, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster was any more of a plausible “generator of diversity” than the next. No matter what I believe spiritually, the first amendment clearly convinces me. The consideration of anything that is not based upon natural evidence and conjecture as a reasonable theory of origin has no place in any public school in the USA.
If you and/or your parent constituents disagree then there’s probably a market in your area for a lucrative private school. May the “generator of diversity” bring favorable traits to your progeny and their progeny and their progeny’s progeny.
NEA Member and Middle School Science Teacher,
buffal0b1ll
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How is that possible that every School Board for every county in the US can decide what will be teach in the classroom?. Not even in Colombia where I live this is possible. Academic curriculum’s should not be a local decision but a national or at least state policy this would prevent the need to fight this kind of initiatives.
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Has anyone e-mailed them to point out the legal implications if they were to introduce ID i.e. the fact that a court has already ruled that it violates statutes regarding the separation of Church and State?
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@Carlos – Unfortunately ever US state and school district can adjust the curriculum to a degree. There is a certain minimum to teach, but there is much flexibility. I believe that there is a federal minimum as well.
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@bullal0b1ll – They can teach ID, but they should then teach all of the creation stories/myths including the FSM.
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They can teach ID if they want BUT NOT IN SCIENCE. Aside from the fact that it promotes specially Christianity in schools (you really don’t think they are going to promote Hinduism, Buddism, Pastafarianism in ID do you?) ID is not a theory. For a hypothesis to be considered a theory it has to be able to be proven or disproven. Since neither is possible in this circumstance then I believe that ID should be relegated to a class where it belongs either philosophy or religious studies. Evolution is taught in science classes because it is a theory and has evidence to support it. As a theory evolution can also be disproven which in many cases. Such as just in the past few years determining that many dinosaurs in fact had feathers and the same bone structure as birds caused the scientific community to re-evaluate the claim that dinosaurs shared their traits with reptiles like being exothermic (which entails hypotheses like heart structure and activity level). Recently we have realized that birds and dinosaurs were more closely related then previously thought teaching us to re-evaluate the evolution of birds.
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in pork Conty floriduh we beleves in veri hi standurds of educatshun. its soo obvius that this
planut and us humens too was desined by the lord thy GOD and not thet monki Derwin. inteligunt design shud be teached in evry scool so the kids willl be protectd from impur thinkin. In pork conty if ya can shoot, gut a hawg, chew, spit and race a car you gots all the learnn ya kneed. leeve the evolushun to the egghed commies, who probabbly wrk fer the terrists enyhow. en anothir thing marrian yer sister shud not be aginst the law, cuz ar famly iz proof ther iz nuthin wrng wit that ether, besids my cuzzins is all way to ugly ifin ya now what i meen.
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Jimmy-bob — You really ARE from Polk County aren’t you???? We’re neighbors! You should dress up in pirate regalia and distribute propaganda at school board meetings with me.
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Ok guys, here it is… I am sending it via smail-mail with a pamhlet enclosed… (and emailing it to the members individually as well)… In case anyone is interested, the next board meeting is Monday.
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December 5, 2007
Polk County School Board
1915 S. Floral Ave.
P.O. Box 391
Bartow, FL 33831
Attn: Kay Fields, Tim Harris, Margaret Lofton, Hazel Sellers, Lori Cunningham, Frank O’Reilly, and Brenda Reddout
Dearest Polk County School Board,
My commendations to you on your decision to include Intelligent Design into your science curriculum! I cannot tell you how pleased it makes me to know that you are doing everything in your power to maintain Florida’s proud position as 29th in education out of our fifty states. As a graduate of Florida’s fine educational system, I have learned not only to speak in complete sentences, but also to read them as well – and it only took me eleven years!
I know many people will criticize you for allowing Intelligent Design to be taught in a science class, claiming it is simply mythology; I disagree. First of all, there are many families who cannot afford to send their children to a private Christian school, where they would most certainly be taught Intelligent Design in place of evolution. By teaching ID in your public schools, you would be providing a service to underprivileged Christian families, as well as to underprivileged non-Christian families who have not yet heard the Good Word.
In addition to the possibility of providing a good moral service to society, I wholeheartedly support the idea of offering controversial viewpoints as every day public school curriculum. For example, in elementary schools across the nation, children learn about the traditions of Thanksgiving. A very common lesson plan is making “A Thanksgiving Day Quilt,” upon which children write about or draw pictures of the things for which they are most thankful. Throughout this project, the children are taught about how the Pilgrims gave gifts of blankets to the Indians for Thanksgiving. The children are not, however, instructed to infect their quilts with chicken pox and give them to other children whose toys they wish to steal. The actual motive for quilt-giving is conveniently left out. This is merely one example of countless fibs and euphemisms delivered to our children on a daily basis. Is this wrong? Of course not! It gives the children motivation to go to (and to stay in) college! Look at all the stuff they haven’t learned yet! (Just wait until they find out George Washington bought his votes with booze!)
Teaching Intelligent Design as science is a fantastic idea; however, as I’m sure you are aware, there are many different theories of ID; to teach just one variation would not benefit students at all. I propose you teach at least two variations of Intelligent Design, which will give your students, about whom you care so much, a deeper and more profound knowledge of the origin of mankind. Please consider the following:
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster teaches us that, in the beginning, His Noodliness created a mountain, trees, and a midget. Sure, no one was around to see it, but it is explained to us (in great detail) in the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, our Holy Book. Pastafarianism also teaches that Pirates are the chosen people, global warming is caused by an ever-shrinking number of Pirates, Fridays are Holy Days, and Heaven contains a Beer Volcano and a Stripper Factory. You may be interested to know that there are over ten million Pastafarians worldwide, and that number is rapidly increasing. It is very possible that you may have Pastafarian families in your school district. It would be a shame to have their children confused by a differing theory of Intelligent Design being taught in their science class. For the sake of the children, please consider teaching our beliefs, as well.
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Please email them… it’s easy, feel free to steal this canned response:
Hello School Board Members,
I recently read that you’re supporting the teaching of “intelligent design” in schools in addition to evolution…
In regards to “intelligent design”, for a hypothesis to be considered a theory it has to be able to be proven or disproven. Neither is possible in the case of “intelligent design”. Evolution is taught in science classes because it is a theory and has evidence to support it. If you’re going to teach “intelligent design” as a science then you should require the teaching of Pastafarianism as well; how about astrology with astronomy?
The idea of teaching “intelligent design” in a classroom setting is so fundamentaly wrong I find it hard to believe this isn’t a joke. Please don’t indoctrinate future generations of American Youth with the nonsensical, faith-based garbage that is “intelligent design”. Keep religion out of the classroom.
Thanks for your time,
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I think we should also encourage the teaching of astrology along side astronomy.
I mean come on, who believes those crazy scientist anyways, Ms Cleo said they don’t know what they be talkin bout.
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Dear Polk County School Board,
I am delighted to learn that you have decided to include the theory of Intelligent Design in your science department. I am writing to ask if you had considered all theories that fall in this category. I hope you will be providing classrooms, faculty, and time to teach the theory of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as well. This is one of the fastest growing religions in the world and must be given a voice in childrens education on the same footing as ID or Evolution. We of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster do not call our theory Intelligent Design and must ask that you change our part of the course description to “Genius Design.” That is the only stipulation I must ask of you. We will of course resort to litigation or formal protest if our religion is not given the same respect and relevance as the aforementioned religion. The Church of the FSM has just as much if not more scientific evidence to back up its theories than ID. I know we cannot compete with evolution on a scientific basis but in this case we don’t have to, do we? I also had some personal wishes concerning classes that must be taught as science classes: The Wizard of Oz(because he also does not want you looking behind the curtain), fairies 101(I have pictures for proof), and Geography of Narnia.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely, Judas Iscariot.
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Discovery’s own manifesto of its aims, the Wedge Strategy Document, clearly outlines inception of ID into science as a strategy to teach religion.
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Wedge strategy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
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“The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to “defeat [scientific] materialism” represented by evolution, “reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions”[2] and to “affirm the reality of God.”[3]
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Its goal is to “renew” American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values.[4]”
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So yes if beliefs are to be taught then all religious beliefs must be represented. I believe it is illegal to discriminate against any one religious faith.
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First off, I would like to thank all of you for taking a step in the right direction. Evolution certainly isn’t the only theory that explains how the plethora of life observed on our planet first originated.
However, I would like to express some concern that you have not taken all of the theories into consideration. I would like to bring your attention to our (pastafarians’) beliefs, that the world was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Now that you have taken a step away from evolution, I’m sure you will be willing to include other, alternative theories in your plans for your science curriculum.
If you would like more information, you can visit http://www.venganza.org. There you will find, among other things, a great many academic endorsements for the Church of the Flying Spaghetti monster.
Good luck,
Eli Barnett
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the “Academic Endorsements” is a hyperlink, apparently it got a bit screwed up in the sent main folder.
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Elected school board members are simply pushing the view that the majority of their god fearing constituents believe. Polls show that a large majority of Americans do not believe in evolution. These are the same people that as students trailed the rest of the world in Math/Science scores, and whose offspring do the same today. A mindset that embraces science for ipods and smart bombs but not for evolution and stem cells will in the end fail. Keep those scientist immigrants coming.
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Just sent an email off to them. I just tweaked the Open Letter. Here it is:
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To the good members of Polk County school board,
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I am writing you to congratulate those who recognize the importance of exposing students to different points of view. It is important that students have the ability to choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. To wit, I believe that Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. However, I am concerned that Intelligent Design excludes other, equally valid theories and students will be unable to make an informed choice. To that end, I propose the Polk County school board also teach the theory of creation as told in Pastafarianism.
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Pastafarianism (or FSMism) is the belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. He all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.
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I write you today to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. If Intelligent Design is not based on faith, but another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.
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We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, though none of us, of course, were around to see it but we have written accounts of it. However, we have lengthy written works explaining the details of His power. We are also one of the world’s fastest growing religions, at over 10 million strong. We tend to be very secretive, as many heretics claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. These misguided souls fail to understand that He uses his powers to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. However, this uninformed scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there manipulating the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail the reasons why He does this. He does not reveal himself to us mere humans, and of course, has the ability to pass though normal matter with ease.
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I am certain you recognize the importance of teaching the students of Polk County this alternate theory. It is imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, to demonstrate the respect demanded by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, our beliefs must be taught His chosen outfit of full pirate regalia. This is extremely important, and though I am unable to describe in detail the reasons for this, as I am afraid this letter is already becoming quite lengthy, and you are no doubt very busy people. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.
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Of particular interest to you may be that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct causal effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. Because followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster believe in the necessity of irrefutable evidence, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years, which demonstrates there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.
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I would like to thank you for your valuable time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I have adequately conveyed the great importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be more than happy to train the teachers of the Polk County school district this alternate theory. I eagerly await your response. Please note: should Polk County decide against teaching Pastafarianism in its classrooms, we will be forced to take legal action, as it would be a case of blatant discrimination. However, I doubt that such a thing will be necessary,as I firmly believe the Polk County school board sees the wisdom in giving the theories of evolution, Intelligent Design, and the Flying Spaghettig Monster equal time in your science classrooms, and with the guidance of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, across the country, and eventually the world. I look forward to the day when one-third time is given for Intelligent Design, one-third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one-third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence. Thank you for your time and may you be touched by his Noodly Appendage.
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I’ve just e-mailed them this (think they will appreciate the irony?):
I’m happy to hear that Intelligent Design is being taught in your school district.
I think it is important that the word of God is put before reasoning or logic.
But I don’t think we should stop here! Biology it’s self should be removed form the curriculum! I once saw one of these so called “experts” on TV claiming that locusts have six legs! SIX LEGS!!!! This spits in the face of biblical teaching which clearly states that locusts only have 4 legs! It gets worse though! I recently caught a locust and was disgusted to see it had 6 legs! In direct defiance of the word of god! These insects have clearly been influenced by the Devil, who is surly trying to support these evolutionist traitors.
We must make sure that form day one that locusts have abandoned the teachings of the One True Lord! I propose that we simple ignore these extra legs and maybe ignore locusts altogether! At lest until they can be made to repent and have only 4 legs!
Then I heard that a bat was a flying mammal! A mammal that fly’s!? The Bible states that they are birds!! Ones again these “scientists” spit in the face of God!
Pepper pot moths and guppies are some other of the Lords creatures that have tuned against Him! They show adaptation to changes in there environment! This is clearly a deliberate attempt by them to help spread the lie of evolution!!!
I congratulate you on your attempts to stop this. I only hope that these offensive ideas are eventually banished from ALL schools.
But these so called “men of science” are continuing to find proof of their ridicules ideas! So I propos that the moral Christians attempt to take control of the government so we can outlaw these people! Then they would ether have to admit to the truth or be forced to repent by any means necessary!
If we could achieve this think how good the world would be with out these science types ruining Gods plans by curing diseases, ending hunger and trying to “improve” the lives of their fellow man!
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@Starbuckaneer–if you do go to Polk County in pirate regalia, bring somebody with you to get pictures! It’s apparent these board members need to see the sauce (as opposed to the light) of FSMism. And you have the convenience of being geographically close to bring these lost souls into the bowl (not fold).
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@Pluto – You give me hope that I’m not a crazyily ranting semi-bored weirdo after all. It could work. Nothing gets at the fundies like someone demanding their money back.
RAmen to you, my fellow pirate.
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Here is my ‘entry’
Dear Polk County School Board members
I am delighted that you are considering ignoring Judge Jones ruling in Kitzmiller v Dover School District on the question of whether teaching Intelligent Design is in violation of the First amendment of our Constitution. As you probably know Judge Jones ruled that :
“The proper application of both the endorsement and Lemon tests to the facts of this case makes it abundantly clear that the Board’s ID Policy violates the Establishment Clause. In making this determination, we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.”
In short, the Judge ruled that Intelligent Design is so bound in religion that it is the same as teaching religion and therefore violates the first amendment.
But I digress, as I said I am delighted that you have taken up the question of teaching alternative theories to the origin of the universe. I believe that the reason the judge was able to rule against the Dover District is because they were only presenting a single alternative theory to evolution. If you do in fact choose to add Intelligent Design to you curriculum, I would respectfully suggest that you include other competing theories as well.
While it would be ideal to teach every single theory of the origin of the universe, we all know that would be impractical. To that end I would suggest that you start with the major theories. Along with Intelligent Design, I would suggest that you also teach as science these theories of the origin of the universe: Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Native American, Zoroastrian and Wiccan. In addition you should probably include at least some traditional African theories. I think you can safely ignore the ‘classic theories’ such as the Greek, Roman and Old Norse as they have so few adherents today that you are not very likely to receive many complaints, but you should check with you legal advisers to be sure.
In closing let me applaud your courage in ignoring Judge Jones ruling and to continue your quest to teach our children ALL competing theories of the origin of the universe.
Respectfully yours
Nicole Syrlik
“There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.” – Douglas Adams
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@Pluto-Excellent, I laughed my ass off on that one!
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Just sent to the board…
I applaud you for your courage and convictions in advocating for a balanced science curriculum in Polk County.
Despite the fact that science embodies logic, reason, evidence, and the peer review process, nothing can trump our faith that there is another, greater explanation for the universe. That’s what my parents taught me, and that’s what their parents taught them, and so on. Could all of my ancestors stretching back thousands of years be wrong?
But, I implore you all not to shortchange your students. While ID has no physical evidence to support the theory, it is not the only alternative to rational thought out there. Please consider incorporating the theory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster into your science curriculum. While I grant you that there is far more logic behind FSM than ID, I can also assure you that, at its core, FSM is really based on faith and therefore passes your rigid test as appropriate material for your children.
I thank you for your consideration. If you would like to learn more about my faith, I would be most happy to enlighten you.
R’ Amen
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@Pluto–yes! Damn the evolutionist locusts to hell! Same goes with bats, the little flying heretics. :lol: That, my friend, was a letter par excellence.
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just sent this (sorry for not biggin up the FSM!):
“If it ever comes to the board for a vote, I will vote against the teaching of evolution as part of the science curriculum,” Lofton said. “If (evolution) is taught, I would want to balance it with the fact that we may live in a universe created by a supreme being as well.”
I totally agree! Should we start with Aboriginal Dreamtime, Aztec Coatlique or perhaps the Zulu creator Unkulunkulu? Which? I’m confused. I do quite like the Norse version where Ymir’s underarm sweat begats various beings. Who’d have thought it? Making beings from body parts! Crazy stuff eh?
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Don’t forget the Haida creation story of Raven finding the first people inside a clam shell. He also brought back the sun when it was stolen at Solstice. So be good to the ravens you see; they created you and gave you the sun.
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I noticed recently how difficult it is to explain to fellow Europeans at what point this creationism vs. evolution thingy is considered a hot item in the US: very few people in Europe are able to believe this is so big, and most conclude with a “Well, those Americans…” type of answer… Maybe the phenomenon will reach Europe one day… the later the better.
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One of the first actions of the actual Spanish government that got the right wing xians on the streets, was a law that diminished the “weight” of religion class in deliberating the final results of students in highschool. Here, in Belgium, even 50 years ago, in most catholic schools you wouldn’t be stopped for having failed the exam for religion , other assignments (maths, latin) being more important, and having more hours per week. The Spanish case is quite different, because right wing xians still can be quite nostalgic for the days of Franco, who had installed a double political-religious dictature.
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I didn’t catch the name of the god, but on the “History of Sex” on the History channel last night it mentioned an ancient Egyptian god that created human kind by “pleasuring” himself. Include that in your list. Googling “creating myths” will lead you to some interesting lists/articles, such as http://www.crystalinks.com/creation.html
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Boy, would I like to be a fly on the wall at Polk County each morning when they look in the inbox! Has anyone received a reply? I haven’t, which leads me to believe that they are giving the matter careful consideration :)
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@Fusillier–someone around here received a reply, but it was the “we’re looking into the matter” type of political ass-covering reply, instead of anything with substance. I do hope that these pro-ID members are taking a hard look at these letters, and realize what a Pandora’s box they are trying to open. I also hope the member who’s sitting on the fence realizes which way the political and legal fortunes lie.
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I finally sent off my 7-page letter to the Polk County School Board. The intro on my email reads:
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“I heard that you are considering including ID in the science curricula in Polk County Schools. I have never spoken out on matters but feel compelled to do so tin this case. Over about a week I put my thoughts and concerns into a letter (attached) that I hope you will read. In brief, it says that will I am in support of people and the religious beliefs that they hold, that religion and evolution are not at odds, the mere idea of teaching is bad on so many levels and will be much worse for religion than for science. Please reconsider and let’s teach science in the science classroom and cultural or traditional beliefs and their derivatives in history, literature, and social studies course, where they would be more appropriate and would be more likely to get a fuller treatment.”
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Thank you all for helpful information and insights.
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I have yet to receive a reply. Considering I put 6 or 7 minutes of my life into writing my e-mail I think I at least deserver a reply to say they have seen it.
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I know one thing, the Republicans are putting forward two religious extremists as their front runners–Huckabee and Romney. My hope is that if either is the nominee, he is utterly crushed in the general election. Both of them are pandering to the religioius right full bore. Romney is telling everyone that religion is a pre-requisite for citizenship, and Huckabee is falsely painting such ardently secularist founding fathers as Jefferson (who coined the phrase “Wall of Separation” to describe how the first amendment was intended to affect they way the American republic was to govern) as born again Xtains. It won’t be long if either of them is elected before they have that fifth supreme court justice (Potter Stewart will be lucky to live out the Bush term, let alone another republican’s term) and then it will be Katie Bar the Door. Almost certainly, public schools will become an instrument for fundamentalist indoctrination with the full blessing of Scalia, Thomas, Alito, et al; censorshiop will be in full force (wanna bet Penthouse and all other magazines are ruled obscene), the new court will almost certainly find a “right to life” in the constitution which will not only overturn Roe v. Wade, but take the choice out of the domain of individual states, and establish a nationwide abortion ban, and you can bet Ten commandment monuments the size of monster trucks will spring up in every public building. What else is up their sleve, who can say–Covenant Marriage in every state, privatizing social services to evengelical groups (so the homeless get a sermon with their cup of soup), you name it. America will become the land of Pig Entitlement.
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Thanks, great site, just found it. I’d heard of FSM of course but didn’t know there was a growing group around it.
I’d been going with more mainstream sites like American United (au.org) or Nat’l Cntr for Science Ed (http://www.natcenscied.org/)
Here’s what I sent:
You do your school district no favor in pushing creationism as science or doubting evolution.
Do you honestly expect these kids to be able to get into college after having gone through a science class based on beliefs (instead of facts)? Even if they do make it past an admissions committee – they would never last in a rigorous academic setting.
Please consider keeping people’s beliefs in their own homes or for a philosophy class where they belong and reserve science classrooms for factual discussions. You are hurting these children’s chance for a good education.
However, if you’re going to insist on including every possible “theory” of how the earth came to be and include the concept of “intelligent design” how do you pick? I’d imagine you would have to include every possible creation myth (at least the ones of American origin).
So let’s see there’s Mormon, Native American (Cherokee, Choctow, Creek, Hopi, Iroquois, Lakota, Navajo, Ojibwa, Seminole), Hawaiian, Alaskan (Tlinglit), Aztec, Raelism, Scientology, the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Wiccan.
That would actually be an interesting class (for a philosophy or religion class), but again, not in the realm of science.
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I cannot help but wondarr, what would tharr convictions be like if they warr required to include Scientology with tharr so-called Intelligent Design, and give it equal press time and opportunity as their silly Christian myth?
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Hi just to let you know I sent the board this:
Good Morning Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am contacting you all as I have heard that there is a proposition to teach Intelligent Design along with Evolution in your Public Schools. I support your endeavor to provide the best education possible for young people by looking at all sources of teaching and studying all theories relevant to modern knowledge.
This is why I must make you aware of Pastafarianism. It is a religion that has a theory of where life originated from that is just as valid as Evolution or Intelligent Design. Many academics have endorsed its teaching please see
http://www.venganza.org/evidence/endorsements1/
I feel you would be doing your students, who may themselves be Pastafarians too afraid to speak up, a great disservice if you ignore our equally valid theory. Please visit http://www.venganza.org/ for more information on our faith. Thank you for your time.
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage
Si
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Im a student in Polk County, and i sent them my opinion along with some key philosophy about the FSM. Ill see if the respond. :)
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As a student of George Jenkins High School, i have always been different. I do not look upon myself as a Christian, but like to think i am accepting of other people and their beliefs. I know millions of emails have probably been sent concerning this discussion, but as a resident pupil of Polk county i hope you will take the time to read this letter. I am a Pastafarian, and i think that if you will teach intelligent design, you should teach the gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as well. I feel as though I have always been a minority having my beliefs, and nothing would make me happier than spreading the word of his holiness, the FSM. Below i have a complete letter originally sent to the members of the Kansas school board explaining the manifesto of our beliefs. Below that is more information concerning this widely popular religion, and may help you understand us better. Thank you for your time and understanding patience.
RAmen,
Erik K. Hendrickson
I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.
Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.
It is for this reason that I’m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I’m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.
Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.
I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.
You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.
In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.
Sincerely Yours,
Bobby Henderson, concerned citizen.
P.S. I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.
We believe it’s important to keep religion out of politics. But when we see public officials abusing their positions, putting their personal religion-based ideas into policy, we fight to get our ideas included as well. It’s only fair.
For some it’s more than satire, more than activism. Just as many Christians don’t take the bible literally, many Pastafarians don’t believe in the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (but understand: many do).
People get something out of religion despite their lack of literal belief; peace, a sense of community, a way to understand the world – whatever. With Pastafarianism, literal belief is even less important; belief is not required for our religion, because we have no irrational Dogma that requires faith.
Whether or not the Flying Spaghetti Monster actually exists is beside the point. It can’t be proved either way, just as Christians can’t prove the existence of their god. And there’s no reason to try. We’re all free to believe what we want.
Pastafarianism is as valid as any other religion or belief-system, more than most, even.
We’re made up largely of tolerant, intelligent people. Pastafarians reject dogma, we therefore have no problems with radical fundamentalism.
We’re the most peaceful religion in the world, our beliefs having caused zero deaths worldwide (to my knowledge). Christianity and Islam have more members, but this will change over time.
We are a group of people who are conscious about how religious belief causes as many problems as it solves. When we say we “believe”, we mean we “think”.
So the Cause is this: We are pursuing a religion that makes the world a better place. It means something different to each of us. We don’t need to analyze it.
We’re raising funds for an ocean-going pirate ship to Spread the Word of Pastafarianim to the world. Every purchase of FSM merchandise contributes to this goal. To date, we’ve raised over $100k. The ship will be open to all Pastafarians. We’ll have a great time.
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After George Bush the fundamental Christians scare the hell out of me. They are idiots. You can not reason with idiots. They are home schooled idiots. I am thinking about writing a letter to the flordia school board but point 1 comes into play, you can not reason with a home schooled idiots. All I can say I pay much more attention to the local school board races these days. It is not only evolution that scares me it is this whole wait to your married sex ed that does get passed in numerous states that caused far more harm to the teenagers than creasionist teaching.
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I immediately sent an email to all the Polk School Board members the day after The Ledger printed their article. Sorry to say, while His Greatness is known to me, His Noodly Appendage abandoned me as I wrote my email so I neglected to send His Blessings. However, I did get a personal reply from Hazil Sellers and whilst ambiguous, it looks like you may need to change the vote image at the top of this page to 50/50 with one still on the fence. Yeah! Polkonians (??) ain’t so stupid as you think they is…!!!
Here’s the reply I got from Hazel Sellers:
From: hazel.sellers@polk-fl.net [mailto:hazel.sellers@polk-fl.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 2:56 PM
To: [me]
Subject: RE: Intelligent Design in Polk County Schools
Dear [lezzard],
I apologize for my not making myself clearer when the Ledger called. Of course I believe in intelligent design but I do not see how it is an either or situation. Science is the investigation, inquiry and experimentation in finding out how and why our world works the way it does. The fact that God created that system is not in conflict with the study to see how it works. The question of Intelligent design does not rival evolution or any other theory. Polk County has always taught the state standards of all subjects and will continue to do so. The question at the end of the day as to who planned how the world works is where intelligent design fits in. It does not hinder our investigative studies of how things came about. I know the Ledger put us on one side or another, although a no vote for me on the standards was not correct. I see no conflict. I hope this clears my stance.
Hazel Sellers
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here is another local Polk County news article that just came out:
http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/12/11/309396.html
the ‘word’ is spreading….
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So…what’s the most recent update on Polk County?
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I have sent a letter through this site to all the school board members in Polk county. Thanx 4 making it e z. -Adapted from St. John the Blasphemer
Dear Polk County School Board,
This is an excellent read regardless of your leanings on the origin of humanity,
Darwin’s discovery of evolution completely rules out the possibility that man came from some dirt that God used to make an image of Himself out of, and that woman came from a rib of this dirt-man.
Compare the amount of interlocking data from every applicable scientific field including geology, physics, and even molecular biology, all having observational experiments done, that test and prove the hypotheses of evolution occurring, with the DISCREDITED FAIRY TALE – A BIG INVISIBLE MONSTER THAT NOBODY HAS EVER SEEN OR HEARD DID IT.
Reverently,
Marc Romain A.K.A. F.S.M.C. P.C.S.I. (Fizz Mick Pa Chee)
Flying Spaghetti Monster Church Promoting Common Sense Ideas
Adapted from St. John of F.S.M.
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I suggest in the bizarre case that this kind of initiative passes on the Polk county or any other place in the world that the people who don´t agree with the idea of teaching religion in the science class to tell their children to get out of the class room when the Inteligent Design Lesson begins, this surely will leave half empty school rooms, meanwhile a sensitive teacher could give scientific talks or perform experiments in the playgrond for the students who leave the classroom…
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CG – that could be interesting. I think it would be more effective if the kids were prepared at home for the ID lectures and had lots of interesting questions to ask the teacher, challenges to the ID theory obviously, asking why is ID science, and so on, but also wanting to know more about FSM, IPU, and other’s creating myths.
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What is this junk about “both” sides? I mean, if we’re going to open the gates to “alternatives” to evolution, why are we arbitrarily saying there are only these “two” sides to it? Even if we try to come at it from a religion standpoint, I think trying to pass off the concept of a creator deity as applying to all religions is dishonest. Not ever religion or creation myth in the world involves a creator deity.
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Here’s my letter that I sent to all of the above people with the little Jesus above his/her head. (Only the first three paragraphs are true.)
As a child I was always interested in history. This interest history led me to pursue a career in education. I currently teach HS social studies.
Throughout learning and teaching about history, I’ve learned that it is next to impossible to separate history and religion. The two are intertwined.
Sometimes in history class, one discussion leads to another, and that topic leads to another and next thing you know, you are talking about something you intended to talk about.
The result of one of the conversations has prompted me to write to you.
I was talking about how Christianity has the 10 Commandments, how I am a big proponent for hanging them in schools, and how most other religions don’t have such rules. Then a student corrected me. “The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster has 8 ‘I Rather You Didn’ts’.”
I laughed this off. She then informed me that she has as much proof as I do; there is as much proof that a flying monster made of spaghetti created everything as there is as much proof that Jesus’ dad created everything.
“It all came out of a book. No one was around to see what was described in Genesis. For all we know, The Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything with his noodly appendages.”
I then asked her what she knew of these 8 “I Rather You Didn’ts.”
“I don’t remember all of them. But the main ideas are;
-Just play nice with each other, don’t go killing or beheading people in my name.
-Don’t do anything that might hurt other people’s feelings
-Don’t spend millions making churches and what-not to worship me. Use that money more effectively; such as feeding the homeless, finding a cure for some disease. “
She then added that, to the best of the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster’s knowledge, no one has ever been killed in the name of his Noodly Deity. “Can you say that about any other religion? Can we say, The Crusades and the Inquisition?”
These simple ideas appealed to me and I told the class I’d “Google” the Flying Spaghetti Monster when I get home.
I read up on this Noodly Deity. I must say that I am convinced that there is as much of a chance that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe as did Jesus’ dad.
If you insist in teaching Jedau-Christian belief of creation, I implore to you please consider teaching the idea of Carbo-Hyrdate-Creationism. I also encourage you to teach the main beliefs of the 8 I Rather You Didn’ts. These simple tenets encourage all men and women to do their best to get along, respect each other, and to try to help each other.
As we say,
Peace and Ramen
(A nice and simple contraction of Amen and Ramen [As in Ramen Noodles.])
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Hi. Here’s what I sent ‘em (I didn’t invoke FSM, sorry, but His devoted acolytes will let His will be known):
To the members of the Polk County Board of Education:
As a Florida citizen I have deep concerns for the integrity of science education when I hear that people in decision-making positions like yourselves want to insert non-science, i.e. Intelligent Design, into science curriculums.
The real problem with evolution in schools is that it has never been taught properly in the first place, just quickly summarized at best, leaving generations of supposedly educated people with no real grasp of its logic or the literal mountains of supporting evidence.
Reality check. Geologists started seriously comparing notes about the structure of the earth around 1800. In a few decades, a consensus existed:
1. The Earth is very old. Millions of years old, almost certainly, and perhaps far older.
2. Life has existed, and is recorded as fossils, over much of the Earth’s history, and has developed in a traceable way–evolved–over that time.
Darwin only showed up after this consensus was established and came up with the how and why of evolution–”natural selection.”
Intelligent Design is kind of like the books I read when I was a teenager, by Erich von Daniken, about Ancient Astronauts who supposedly erected Easter Island heads, built the pyramids etc. The evidence? People couldn’t have figured out how to do it themselves, so the default explanation must be aliens. Von Daniken claimed the Nazca Lines, huge scratched-out pictures of animals and enigmatic line patterns, couldn’t have been drawn without the aid of a flying saucer pilot to direct the work from the air. My conclusion was that (a) von Daniken wasn’t too smart, since at 16, I already knew how to grid up a drawing, and (b) people would rather invoke a deus ex machina than simply accept that a phenomenon is unexplained. I.D. is not science, being neither tested nor testable (you can’t disprove magic).
Please stick with science. Thank you for your attention.
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Messages sent…
Subject: Thank you, and keep up the fight!
Just wanted to let you know that we at The Very Young Earth Society are grateful that your school board is considering teaching intelligent design along side that foul, unfounded ‘evolution’. There’s just as much proof that we were created here!
I mean, just look at The Book of The Subgenius. I want all your kids to be aware that our faith believes that the universe was created by J.R. “BoB” Dobbs some 54 years ago. It’s just plain truth! And why shouldn’t young, malleable minds be completely muddled in religious dogma! I was, and I turned out great. Thanks for helping the cause.
Father Time :ordained minister, Church of the Subgenius
founder : The Very Young Earth Society
http://groups.myspace.com/veryyoungearthsociety
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I just sent this to the 7 school board members and the reporter of the Ledger:
Dear Sirs,
As a School Board I find it imperative to communicate our earnest desire to be included in your “Science” curriculum. If you are now willing to discuss the teaching of Intelligent Design as Science then I see no reason not to include FSM. If you are capable of relaxing the definition of Science to include religious beliefs then we are in (we won’t tell anyone that this is not Science, our little secret).
How dare the scientific community require us to apply science to our beliefs? Well if they want to apply scientific principles then why shouldn’t we apply religious principles to their classes?
I applaud your logic.
For those of you not in favor of ID in the classroom I have a message. Repent your evil ways, ignore your education and reasoning. Follow your Noodly Master before it is too late. RAmen!
I bid you farewell,
Pirate Saul of Tarsus
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I sent this to themlast night ; I await a responce…
If you decide to treat Intelligent Design as a scientific theory; will you in return have Rational Positivism treated as a valid religion. I think not. Your decision to treat religion as science is a mockery of science and scientific principal. Just as treating science as religion mocks religion. You are stewards of the education process. Please note that other school districts, confronted with the Intelligent Design issue have replaced their school boards with members willing to not compromise the integrity of education. Sincerely, Steven Zyla
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My letter to the school board:
Respected Board Members,
Why couldn’t the Creator {who might be a carbon (or carbohydrate) based life form} have designed the universe WITH Evolution?
Teaching ID in a science class is like teaching Grimm’s Fairy Tales in Trigonometry and excluding Evolution from Science is like asking Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein to cease their mumblings about Black Holes, Dark Matter, and Tachyons.
JC
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As a new member of FSM, it fills me with pride to know that something is being done to stop the ridiculousness of Intelligent Design in the public school system. If parents want their children to learn about a theory that cannot be proven, they should pay extra money to send them to private school. Personally I think pastafarianism has just as much credibility as anything else. Who’s to say Bobby Henderson didn’t really have some kind of vision of the truth? Maybe he really is a prophet, who’s actions are being manipulated by a higher power. It makes about as much sense as Jesus. Thank you FSM for giving me hope that humanity still has a chance! Evolution revolution!
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I wrote something similar in my letter, that ID wasn’t science, and the proposal was actually bad for religion. But I also noted that this probably had nothing to do with either science or religion, but a quest for political power by some fascist group that is distorting Christianity to serve its own purposes.
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My email to them:
All,
I want to thank you for proudly supporting the rights of us minority. For too long, people have been teaching evolution as fact. I congratulate you on your decision to include Intelligent Design, which of course will be accompanied by the truth about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, pasta be upon him. As we all know, The Flying Spaghetti Monster (PBUH) is the one true creator of the universe, as scientific evidence clearly shows. For too long he has been relegated to myth instead of being taught as fact along-side this so-called theory of evolution. It is imperative to include both Intelligent Design and The Flying Spaghetti Monster (PBUH) in your classes in Polk County.
To those of you on the CC list of this email, shame on you for trying to keep our Lord out of the minds of children.
Good Work amd RAmen,
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Dear members of the Polk County School Board:
By now you have received several communications from my fellow Pastafarians. We are encouraging you, if you are going to include other forms of Intelligent Design (ID) in the Polk science curriculum, to also include the tenets of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. After all, our beliefs are every bit as valid and well-supported as traditional ID.
You may be having second thoughts about the wisdom of introducing ID into your science classes, given that a similar effort in Dover, PA cost that school district $1 million, and resulted in the ID supporters on that school board being promptly booted out of office in the next election. We Pastafarians are encouraging you to disregard such concerns. As the Polk County School Board, you have more pressing concerns than the financial well being of your school district. As General George Armstrong Custer so famously said: “Don’t worry about what our scouts are saying. Charge!!”
I think General Custer’s wisdom should be an inspiration to you, as you pursue your course of introducing both traditional ID as well as Pastafarianism into Polk County Schools. As our Prophet Bobby Henderson so memorably put it:
I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given
equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world;
One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism,
and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.
May you all be Touched by his Noodly Appendage!
RAmen.
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my message to the folks at polk read as follows:
3 words,
“kansas school board”.
sautations from Canada.
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Dear Board Members,
It has come to my attention that you are considering allowing Intelligent Design to be taught in the Polk County science classrooms and I am writing to protest this discrimination. If ID is taught in science classrooms as a competing theory to evolution, then all competing theories should be taught including ours; the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Our beliefs are fully expressed on our website: http://www.venganza.org/
If Pastafarianism is belittled as a joke the same can be said of Intelligent Design. We are a spiritual group. The word spiritual comes from the Greek root “spiritus” meaning “that which can not be defined” and since our views, as well as the views of the Catholics, the Muslims, and the Wiccans bind us together but cannot be proven through observable science then I would argue that all major religious ideologies that bind people together under a single belief system fall under the same heading. That being said, if the Board decides to advocate one theology which can not be scientifically proven to further an agenda of expanding its own spiritual group, it is guilty of discrimination if our beliefs are not explained as well.
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Note that although some of them (polk County Board) have little “Darwins” above their heads, all should have had little Jesus’. They are all creationists. Some of them don’t support the teaching of ID only because it is now illegal.
What is it about running for school board that attracts the illiterate?
They have stated that they are immediately “trashing” any emails from our little group without reading them – The same attitude toward reading that resulted in their profound ignorance.
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It’s not so much who *runs* for the office, but who gets *elected* to the office. The illiterate know their own.
And there is at least some resistance to ID in the county; one of the people there has “Touched By His Noodly Appendage” and this site’s URL on his office door. (That’s how I heard about this site… very amusing, by the way.)
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Congratulations, Pastafarians
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/22/na-polk-needled-noodled-in-evolution-flap/
http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2007/12/22/polk-county-school-board-backs-off-intelligent-design/
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To The Pinellas County Board of Education:
I applaud you for your courage and conviction in advocating for a balanced science curriculum in Pinellas County.
Despite the fact that science embodies logic, reason, evidence, and the peer review process, nothing can trump our faith that there is another, greater explanation for the universe. That’s what my parents taught me, and that’s what their parents taught them, and so on. Could all of my ancestors stretching back thousands of years be wrong?
But, I implore you all not to shortchange your students. While Intelligent Design (”ID”) has no physical evidence to support it as a scientific theory, it is not the only alternative to rational thought out there. Please consider incorporating the theory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (”FSM”) into your science curriculum as well. While I grant you that there is far more logic behind FSM than ID, I can also assure you that, at its core, FSM is really based on faith and therefore passes your rigid test as appropriate material for your children.
I thank you for your consideration. If you would like to learn more about my faith, I would be most happy to enlighten you.
R’ Amen,
Daren Niklerog
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The pingback on the bottom of this page points to a little more coverage:
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2007/12/29/polk-county-creationists-witness-the-intercession-of-his-noodly-appendage/
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Truly, the Polk County School Board will no longer doubt the existence of the omnipotent FSM! They must admit to themselves that their blatant disregard for more rational theories of cosmic and human origins have riled the great FSM himself to boldly thrust his noodly appendage into the matter. I’ll bet that is the last time they try this little gambit without first considering the consequences. All they need really do before considering such action in the future is think: WWFSMD. It would save them a lot of humiliation.
R’amen
Kona
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okay just to point out, how is there evidence for Inteligent design but none for evolution? the only people it offends are those that dont understand it, evolution is not trying to give us all the answers just the ones about how life as we know it came to be
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We all know that the real crux of the issue isn’t evolution or intelligent design, it’s power.
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I thought Oregon’s Polk County where I live……..
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I find too often that very few have a clear understanding of Intelligent Design and those who claim to know Evolution do not know science at all. In fact, I find that many people make up thier science to justify their weird beliefs like Global Warming. There are three sciences to global warming and no one talks about the accurate science. Likewise, Evolution proponents insist on naturalistic principles like randomness and Frankenstien theories of sparking life into inanimate matter that simply are not true or scientific. Did many of you know that Islamics believe the world is floating on the back of a turtle? According to their science this keeps the world from sinking into the cosmic abyss.
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There is a truth out there believe it or not. In fact, there is a science to discovering the truth. This science is called epistomology and no one studies it today.
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People have weird beliefs that they so arrogantly want to believe that they will distort truth, reality, and even perception in order to make THEIR belief justified. These people are so inept at usingtheir minds that they cannot look back at themselves. They an only look outward.
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In my minds eye, I have travelled to a far away place and looked back at this world from anothers viewpoint. I have looked at things from many other perspectives and have come to realize that it is not what I know or can see but what is revealed to me.
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There are few Christians I meet who can meaningfully discuss Intelligent design. They are trying but lack the ability to make the necessary correlations. The correlations do exist but mst are unable to make them. Likewise, evolutionist are far too emotional and rely on psuedo science to defend their belief. By the way, Evolution is not a science. It is a philosophy or cosmology of sorts. Evolutions intended message is that there is no God. Eventhough, atheist and agnostics believe either in no God or willful ignorance, they ultimately worship a God that is a NULL and this is the God they defend and fight for.
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I doubt most humans will ever come to know the truth as so many attempt to bury it in obfuscation. Unfortunately, too many people will come to know false science and perhaps fall into the allure and charms of a false God.
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MrMiama; your post has annoyed me to such an extent with it’s wrongness that I shall not deign to attempt to correct you. I’m sure that one of the other forumites will be along shortly to clean up this mess.
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MrMiami,
Please explain these revolutionary new ideas that you’re crack-smoking alien masters programmed you with….
BTW,
“Evolution is not a science. It is a philosophy or cosmology of sorts.”
if this is true, does that mean the Laws of thermodynamics are really a form of ESP?
please explain….
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Pinellas County Board of Education,
I applaud your efforts to keep both Intelligent Design (ID) and Evolution in school curriculum. Since ID is not simply a Christian ideal, I can’t wait to be holding signs on your behalf!!!! I must admit that I am not a Christian, but I adamantly fight on behalf of ID being taught in our schools systems! Below is a list of all ID “theories” that should be taught along with your Christian ID theory. Thanks for helping us all live in a better, more ethical and moral world! The Christians have a proven track record of over 2000 years of being nothing but PERFECTLY (Christ like) moral and ethical.
Please refer to the list below so we can start buying books on each ID subject! I will happily be the first to donate on behalf of my religion!
Asatru
Baha’i Faith
Caodaism
Christianity
Damanhur Community
Religious Druidism
Druze (Druse, Muwahhid, Mowahhidoon, Mo’wa’he’doon, Taw’heed Faith)
Eckankar
The Elia’n Gonzalez Religious Movement
Gnosticism
Gypsies
Hinduism
FSM
Goddess Worship (for history)
Ifa
Islam
Judaism
Jainism
Jehovah Wittnesses
Krishna’s
Lukumi
Macumba
Theistic Satanism
Scientology (on earth)
Sikhism
Shinto
The Creativity Movement (formerly the World Church of the Creator)
Unitarian
Vodun
Wiccan
Yizidi
Zorastrianism
I know that Jane Dellucci says that “students should be given the opportunity to view ALL theories on how man evolved”… but we have to start somewhere… right?
I could only put these very few different religions due to the fact that I have limited time, but I think you get the picture of how important it is to get our ID views out to the public. Hopefully you can get private funds donated for the cause since the government will not appropriate funds on this behalf. Perhaps you are all independently wealthy and can support this cause with your own bank accounts? I view you all as modern day pioneers of ID.
Since Polk County, FL has 160 School sites including 65 Elementary Schools, 19 Middle Schools, and 16 High Schools I believe that time is NOT on our side. Since the Polk County school district has over 95,000 students it is imperative that we start the fund raising mission soon! Let me do some math to shorten our time and just get straight to the fundraising.
Here are our variables:
95,000 Students = x
32 (minimum number of ID theory’s proposed) = y
$100.00 (least amount of money for a modern religious textbook) = z
Equation is: (x * y * z = $)
Rough estimate = $304,000,000.00 (Three Hundred and Four Million Dollars).
I’m sure they (Religious Institutions) will give us a discount since it is for a good cause. At least we can try… right!?
Again… this is only the first year’s editions; we can update our books every year because of simple dogmatic changes in our different religions.
Since our current budget is $798,400,000.00 and 82% of that goes to teaching, transporting, and counseling students, 15% of that comes from operating and maintenance, and the remaining 3% goes to central and fiscal services… means we need to do some tremendous fundraising, or cut some fat off the corners.
Since the state funds 63% of the general fund (for now, hopefully they will continue after ID is introduced) comes from the state, we will have to make provisions for more local money because of the possibility of losing state funding. We MUST ACT NOW! This is absolutely the best thing to do!
Since your school system is made up of 53% white, 23% black and 22% Hispanic, we will need to hire Theologist’s that speak multiple languages. This will surely decrease our budget significantly so we will need to make preparations for this also. Since education is the absolute most important thing (ensure rigorous, relevant learning experiences that result in high achievement for our students = current Polk County mission statement) then we must understand that money is no object and act as such.
Below are my three proposed options:
1.) Trim some fat off the current budget by dropping health care, pensions, and instituting all reserve monies into next year’s budget. Also, since our cause is so noble, I’m sure that teachers will gladly take an 80% pay cut in order to have an opportunity to be part of such a movement. This should save us a great deal of money for more books next year!
2.) I say we proportion our entire fiscal budget for next year into hiring new multilingual Theologist’s and buying these new books. We can then let our faith bring the money in for the remainder of the budget. Surely with all of these different faiths being taught the God’s will reward us!
3.) Continue to teach the theory of evolution based on overwhelming observable scientific evidence and forego ID teachings in its entirety.
Personally, I would do option 3.
Just in case… I am contacting the Dover, Pennsylvania School board to help assist you in case this goes to trial. I assure you, they have plenty of experience in this realm. I’m not sure if the members that were on trial are sill on the board, or even in civilized public, but I’m sure they can point us in the correct direction.
Let me know what I can do to help! I remain your humble servant.
I copied my religious Prophet (Bobby Henderson). I can’t speak for my Prophet… but he can probably assist you in your goals, I would trust him entirely and sign him up as a consultant. What could be better than an actual Prophet in the ID realm?
Ramen,
Shawn Pate
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@Iain & MonkeyBoy:
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Science only deals with complexity and order. Science makes no ascertains about origin. However, science can be used to reconcile origin ideas. Hence, ‘The Origin of a Species’ is not science but attempts to use science to reconcile ideas about origin just as Intelligent Design (ID) does the same. It just so happens that ID reconciles with the Bible instead of a human’s ethereal idea of origin. Unfortunately, in order to make science fit an idea about origin, human’s tend to adjust the science instead of letting the science report in truth. A problem in many cosmological views.
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Evolution uses a different science than Intelligent Design uses on numerous points. Some of these points center on the notion of randomness, the definition of life, and fundamental scientific rigors.
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The Evolutionist Genesis profoundly claims that at some point in the past the right mix of inanimate and inert materials somehow came into contact. They speculate by currents moving the components around, by tectonic forces bringing them together, or by the collapse of a super nebula during a violent age somewhere in the universe. Simultaneously, natural forces formed static charges of sufficient strength to ‘spark’ the inert materials into a primordial protoplasmic globule. Overtime this globule morphed through natural selection and random drift forming higher orders of life. This life could have traveled at some point by spatial pan spermia and deposited on the planet Earth. This is to remark that biological life is a phenomenon that is becoming more organized over time and is spread over the universe through the pan spermia mechanism. There is nothing unique about biological life other than to remark it is a galactic weed.
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Ultimately, the Church of Evolution remarks there is no Deity that is active or in control of the universe. The universe and its natural order have no purpose other than to aimless re-organize overtime to some other order. Evolutionists oddly claim that order occurs in contrast to its dependency on the notion of random action. If, by chance, an Evolutionist claims they believe in a Deity, it is one that is disinterested in creation and has no interest in the natural other than to have created it and moved on. Like a creationist, the Evolutionist proselytizes the belief with religious fervor by fighting for and defending his God of NULL.
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Intelligent Design comparatively claims the universe is ordered and randomness does not exist as a natural phenomenon. ID remarks that creation is the outcome of an interested and involved deity. ID views biological life as a combination of a biological embodiment and a spiritual presence – a soul. ID tells us that life was placed on Earth not by pan spermia but by a Deity that desires to walk amongst humans at some point in the future. Like an Evolutionist, the creationist proselytizes the belief with religious fervor by fighting for and defending his God who has given humans a choice. He is a deity who does not force himself upon humans but desires that humans open their eyes and come to him by choice. He is a Deity who confirms his presence in his design sort of like an artist signs his works.
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In the end, you could worship NULL, God of nothing, or you could worship the Judeo/Christian God, God of it all. In general, evolutionists remind me of ‘Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom’. The mesmerized miners below the palace wildly swing arms and chant as a victim’s heart is stolen then burst into flames.
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Response to MrMiami
You’re telling me that Intelligent Design uses science; a science that is proven by its own book? Wow… that would be easy to do. Let me write a book and then prove to you what I wrote was actually written.
I applaud your attempt to sound civilized but… Christians hold these “Temple of Doom” ceremonies every day… all across the world. So don’t act all “Righteous” and act like what you are doing is better than what anybody else is doing. If you were born in the middle east you would be Muslim and you would chant the same story about FSM. The truth is… people like you WANT and NEED to be controlled by other people. So go ahead and remain the slave of one person’s political agenda.
Pulling hearts out??? You might want to do some research on blood sacrifice and religion. Also, don’t you eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus? What’s the difference? And no… it’s not a symbol of the body and blood… Christians actually BELIEVE it IS the body and blood of Christ.
I’ve been an Atheist for a long time and still have not attended an Atheist ceremony. I think you have us confused with other religions such as your own. Do some research and get back to me on that. Just because it’s not Christianity (you do have your own f’d up rituals) doesn’t mean it’s not an ID based religion.
My issue with most Christians (all that I have met) is that they accept what someone else has told them and require no proof at all (faith you call it). Not only this… but Christians fail to do any research on the origin of life, culture, or politics of the time of Jesus. Christians just go to church and listen to the same sermon that was repeated 6 weeks ago. Trust me when I say this… the clergy does not want to change the Status Quo. If you actually LEARNED something… you might find out that religion is a tool used to control people when government fails.
I have done more research regarding Christianity than ALL Christians that I have met. I can hold a more rational conversation with Christians because of WHAT I KNOW… not what I don’t know. Nearly 100% of the time I talk to Christians that have “Their own view” on Christianity (Moderates or Liberals). They do not share the same ideals of the Christian Religion. The problem is… nobody will admit this when they are in their “Fellowship” groups… because it’s easier to lie and be forgiven than it is to tell the truth and be persecuted. Sound familiar?
How many Christians do you know that don’t believe in evolution. I have met maybe 1 or 2 and they don’t want to talk about it. All the others just say “yeah… I’m a Christian but I believe in evolution”… which is not a Christian at all. It’s someone who has taken a moral and ethical philosophy and massaged it into a religion. It makes me sick that these same people go to church for the sport of it.
So nice try; the irony of the entire thing is that you called “faith”… science. The only science in faith is examining the psychological need for Christians to feel:
1.) part of a group
2.) attached to invisible, non tangible, non provable entities
3.) exactly opposite of what the bible teaches (Peaceful, non-violent, tolerable)
I could honestly go on for a long time here… it’s just too interesting to not study.
So please don’t confuse what science and religion are. Religion and science are not even in the same realm. Your argument is no different from me telling you that the book “Where the Wild Things are” actually happened. Hey… I got a book to prove it… and you can’t disprove it. I can say that I have “Faith” that it actually happened…. and you can’t disprove me. Get it?
Science takes observable evidence, does experiments, creates a rule, tries to break that rule, asks other scientist to break the rule, and then it becomes fact. Facts build a hypothesis, several hypothesis’s become a theory. Thus… the theory of evolution.
Religious theory is DIFFERENT. Let me repeat myself, DIFFERENT from scientific theory. Religious theory just means “idea”.
Your best option is to use Science… to prove that your god is real. Except… you really don’t want to work that hard… do you? That seems to be the Christian mantra.
Truth is… it’s easier to be a Christian than an Atheist due to the fact that we are still educating ourselves… Christians have already given up.
Do us all a favor… and prove us Pastafarians wrong. I dare you… or do you not want to work that hard??? It’s just eternity… right?
Shawn Pate
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Mr. Miami:::
Those who support evolution only do so because it is the main scientific theory out there that explains the world, IT IS NOT A RELIGION!!!
As a part of science, if someone disproves evolution by some means, then science would drop it and go with whatever the new one is. So, if a creationist could prove that evolution can’t happen without bible quotes or evidence that cannot be counted by anyone, I would not think of evolution as the way life occurs right now.
Unfortunatly, and I’m sure you agree, the only evidence out there that creationists bring up are bible quotes. And any evidence they get against it was an error that existed in Charles Darwin’s “The Origin of Species”, not realizing that they’re criticizing data that is 150 YEARS OLD instead of dealing with the more recent observations and theories.
Oh, and epistomology. That is just the study of knowledge based on what we believe and what is true (or something like that). I don’t see how you confuse what seems to be psychology with the origins of life, so I’ll get rid of your confusion. Science is only about trying to get as close to the truth as we can (which is why I could give up evolution if you can dissprove it) realizing that we will never be 100% right. epistomology, from what I see, takes beliefs into account: it says that knowledge comes from things that you believe that ARE TRUE! but, I ask, how do you determine what is probably true? With science, and what does science require? evidence, oberservation and experimentation. and what does the evidence observations and experimentation say about the orgin of life? That evolution, as far as scientific evidence goes, is our best guess so far until someone disproves it beyond a REASONABLE doubt.
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@Caveat Lector:
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EVOLUTION IS A RELIGION! It is a shame that you are so polarized in your thoughts that you cannot see that. First, whenever origin is discussed it has nothing to science. Science deals with complexity and order. Hence, the ‘Origin of a Species’ is a cosmological revelation that attempts to use science in order to validate that BELIEF. This is the exact same thing that Intelligent Design, ID, proponents do. ID attempts to reconcile science with the revelation of the Bible.
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Part of the problem is that the science Evolution uses and the science ID uses are not entirely the same science. The underpinnings of the sciences is fundamentally different in the treatment of randomness vs order, the definition of life, and other scientific rigors. In short, the ‘good’ ideas are influencing the science rather than the science influencing the ‘good’ ideas.
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For example, evolution defines life as a set of chemical processes and a collection of material particles that randomly assembled, animated, and evolved to form creatures and plants. ID defines life as a biological embodiment that is host to a spirit or soul of a animal or human. The soul is the essence of each animal or individual. Plants are not considered as ‘life’ under ID although they possess the same biological qualities. Plants do not possess a spirit or soul.
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The evangelical evolutionist are akin to street corner Bible thumpers. These evolutionary nuts shout down anyone and everyone with thier radicalized belief. They prosyletize by insisting on it being in schools that are today more like a Madrassah than the freest expansion of the human mind. They are literal adherents to ashes-to-ashes and dust-to-dust. Imagine that, the evangelical evolutionist believe that you have more in common with a dust speck than a future with an eternal God.
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There is no science to evolution. There is only a ‘good’ idea and a psuedo-science to make it appear right.
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Once again, I return to ‘Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom’. Evolution converts are like the mesmerized miners below the palace wildly swing arms and chant as a victim’s heart is stolen then burst into flames before thier God, NULL. Halee Kaaa Haleee Kaaa!
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@Caveat Lector:
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Creationist only cite Bible verses. ID is not creationism. ID proponents have an alternative explanation in which science is reconciled with the Bible regarding creation.
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Quantum physics indicates that the phyisical Universe deconstructs to a quantized or discrete state. This state is digital in nature and is described by information theory leading to quantum computing theories. These theories indicate that the universe is an outcome of a irreversible computational algorythm and everything physical is computationally executed. Hence, the big bang equates to the throwing of a arcing switch and the program begins to execute. Furthermore, quantum physics indicates that the entire physical universe ceases to exist and becomes waveforms (string theory) when those discrete chunks of matter are cut in half the last time.
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ID proponents reconcile this scientific finding with what the Bible says. In Genesis 1:3 God spoke the universe into existence or communicated information. This is an indication of an information orientation. Hebrews 11:3 says the universe is made of that we cannot touch. Information is intangible. The Bible is a message, God is the word, and the word is the light. We know that information can be encoded into light waves. God may have very well coded or made the universe in 7 days. The codes execution has been longer. There is for more to this than just one or two versus but I think get the gist.
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This is also consistent with the notion that DNA is a pattern makers template. Information is no only stored in the DNA but also acts on the DNA and includes timing, sequencing, and duration of firing genes. DNA has been frequently described like a computer program. The pattern maker could be operating the template within the constructs of the code. Could there be truth to a Bible Code?
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@Shawn Pate
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An atheist has a God despite thier vocal opposition to the notion. Atheist have defensive points to justify their belief and write books like Richard Dawkins does. The God of an atheist is a NULL whether you like it and believe it or not. You have a God and you willingfully defend it.
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I have studied Islam and Christianity both. They are doctrinally diametrically opposites on every point they make. Evolution actually dove tails nicely into Islam since they believe that Christians and Jewish comes from monkeys and chickens. Actually, I think that verse is more of an insult than a factual statement. Nonetheless, you’ll find Muslims are attracted to Evolution more so than Christians.
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Understandings in the Judeo/Christian doctrine are stratified. There is a lay, theological, and scholarly interpretation. Each intrepretation stratification has liberal and conservative variants. The lay interpretation is almost always incorrect. The Scholarly interpretations are focused on the academics of science, history, psychology, culture, etc… in relation to the scriptures. The Theological interpretations take the scholarly understandings and apply them to the practical application of living life and answering the philosophical questions such as who am I, why am I here, and what happens after I die?
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Your diatribe about faith is often reflected by many people. I also see the frustration people have with the protestant churchs today. The protestant churchs almost solely focus on newcomers and rarely develop the faith in maturing Christians. Hence, many are left to thier own devices which can be dangerous since there is a very deliberate method of learning the doctrine.
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Compounding the problem is the fact that people of any faith are at different stations of maturity in the faith. Some go on and mature into an accurate understanding and application of the faith. Others stagnant and never move forward. Protestant Christian doctrine remarks that every Christian is a leader in the faith and is responsible for correctly learning the faith once a member. Unfortunately, many Christians view the faith incorrectly through a worldly lense rather than from a supernatural lense or they develop their understanding using lay interpretations that are incorrect based on scriptural doctrine. Coincidentally, less than 2% of doctrinal Christianity is in dispute amongst the theologians, scholars, and even the fragmented Christian religions. The disputed doctrine has no bearing on the message or the critical principles in the theology.
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Muslims are somewhat different than the Christians. There is one major rift in Islam between Sunni and Shia’s and both are stratified but in different ways than Christians. They tend to be stratified by thier practice rather than understanding. There are non-practicing Jihadist, Moderate Jihadist, and Fundamental Jihadist. The Moderates are generally broken into Spiritual Jihadist, Supporting Jihadist, and Contributing Jihadist. Fundamental Jihadist are the ones that take it to the most overt actions. Interestingly, while the rift is principally over who can be an Imam, they both appeal to the same Islamic philosophers such as Mawdudi.
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In the end, all humans appeal to a kind of God in one form or another regardless of their acknowledgement of that God. The challenge that all humans are confronted with is properly determining which is the true God. It is a life journey and has implications beyond life. It is more important to learn how to learn and methods to learning than it is to be told something. Einstein once remarked that knowledge and discovery are not possible unless one can first imagine. Einstein came to understand the theory of relativity by imagining that he was a photon of light. Can you imagine yourself outside the universe looking back? Can you imagine yourself looking through the eyes of another? Can you image stream and conduct combinatory play in the mind’s eye?
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MrMiami:
Although I tried to have a reasonable conversation with you, it appears that whoever taught you religion attended the “David Koresh” school of “how to get others to drink the cool aid”. I applaud his manipulation tactics!!!! I’m sure you have given him a great deal of money by now. After all… God does need your money.
I do like how you conveniently overlooked my post. Is it that you forgot already? Or does your faith lead you to believe that it does not actually exist?
Let’s do a simple experiment to show you the difference between a Religious person’s faith, and a scientists “belief” as you call it.
Let’s take 2 people, say… you… and I.
Now let’s start a bonfire in the middle of a field and stand next to it.
I, as a scientist, deduce that IF I were to jump into the bonfire and lay down… I would burn to death. This is not a belief… this is what would happen based on laws and hypothesis that science has concluded.
So let’s take your… faith… and have you do the same thing. Do you believe that you would not burn? What does your faith have to do with what is tangible in our realm of reality? Is this the same reason Christians die every year after being bit from the rattlesnake that god was supposed to protect them from while dancing with at church?
So why don’t you jump in the fire? Is it your god that taught you not to lie in a bonfire… or is it science? (insert Jeopardy music here).
So here is a TANGIBLE difference between science, belief, proof, and faith.
You don’t have the BELIEF that your FAITH will protect you because of what SCIENCE has PROVEN.
Is this a little more clear for you? If not… try out this experiment and see what happens. I will personally bow down and kiss your feet, then declare my love for the Christian god if it does not go the way science has PROVEN to happen. If you are protected by your Christian god then I will become a born again Christian.
I know what your thinking… there is a difference between faith and crazy… I’m telling you that you are walking a very thin line. This is the reason for FSM in the first place. It is derived to illustrate the shortcomings of religions based on “beliefs” with no evidence.
Christians and ID people such as yourself are always pointing their finger at science and asking us to PROVE things. Well I am going to go outside of my typical scientist role and ask you to do something… PROVE your god exists.
And please don’t use the sub-seventy IQ control tactic of asking me how to explain how a tree exists without god… for I can explain that. Please… don’t mention irreducible complexity to me… this is also an ID purveyors great misfortune… it simply makes you all look like you have done exactly NO research. Please don’t misuse scientist’s quote to defend your issues… it’s been played out.
Your move…
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MrMiama.
Interestingly enough, evolution has a significant amount of scientific proof. ID doesn’t. And you do know that evolution isnt at all random? Its differencial survival (I think that is the right term, someone with some sense, ie. not MrMiama, correct me if I’m wrong.) It takes thousands of changes for an entire species to evolve, it isn’t just an instant thing. Why am i even going to the trouble of thinking of a way to explain this to you? You seem pretty stuck in your beliefs. You may want to take a lesson from an Agnostic. When someone proves that your theory isn’t true, as many have with ID, then you give your theory up and move on to the proven one.
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How a God who created the universe NOT be part of the science that he created?
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Well okay, i just typed a wonnderfully eloquent few paragraphs here and didn’t fill out my email, so it disappeared, now i’ll restart from scratch but it won’t be as good. God Damn it.
Mr. Miami said “evolutions [sic] intended message is that there is no God”. I would like to point out that this is a presumtuous statement to say the least. First and foremost Evolution is not your roommate Matt, the Atheist. As such it can not be personified in such a way as to INTEND any messages. Evolution is a field of study, it will never intentionally say “there is no God” nor will it ever intentionally say “I had sex on your bed, don’t use your pillow” or “Sorry, i spilled beer on you keyboard”
The very first proponents of intelligent design were Geneticists and evoluntionary scientists seeking an explanation for why DNA and life in general are so complex. Seeking explanations for why we, as intelligent beings, have such a difficult time reproducing life in a laboratory, not to mention why it hasn’t randomly been produced on the planet on a regular basis.
The very concept of intelligent design as a valid scientific plausibility hinges on the idea that evolution as a result of genetic variation and adaptation is in fact proven. If you do not accept evolution as fact, ID has no valid talking points, and therefor, no scientific justification.
This is what strikes me as frustrating; the people who often are proponents of Intelligent Design are also often attempting to kill Evolutionary education, yet, Inelligent Design is BASED on the science of evolution. The very foundation of ID is evolution. If you’ll forgive my poor analogy, these people are trying to build a house on sand.
That said I would like to again point out that Evolution does not make any claims that there being no God. Many proponents of evolution make that claim, but evolution itself is simpky a field of scientific study, and as such it explores and attempts to understand the natural universe which FSM created. Science does not exclude the existence of a creator, even while many scientists may.
Suck It.
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@Shawn Pate
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Your move? LOL. I have an interesting piece on how to have an intellectual conversation. Perhaps you should review it. I am not sure what you mean by I overlooked your post? You’ll need to explain what you feel I overlooked.
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Is your Bon Fire symbolic of the lake of fire or the test of faith in the Bible? Those occur outside the natural
realm. Worldly science does not apply during the condemnation of man or the judgement of one’s strength of faith.
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In the natural realm, the science that the Judeo/Christian God created applies. Of course, fire burns and destroys. In fact, the Judeo/Christian God says that he will destroy all of creation in the end by fire. I would not want to be Left Behind. During the endtimes scenario there is direct intervention by God in this world and people are said to withstand the effects of natural fire.
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Biblical meaning of faith and your meaning of faith are not the same. The Biblical meaning of faith is ‘to place trust
in’. The modern meaning of faith and your meaning of faith is to believe in something without cause. They are very
different. Christian’s view all of creation as a result of a participating God. His ‘fingerprints’ are all over
creation. Learning about the Judeo/Christian God is like preening. He enjoys being discovered and wrestling with
humans. One way to discover his existence is to reconcile creation with his message from beyond this universe.
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There are really only three points of trust. 1. God is who he says he is. 2. The Bible is his infallible message. 3.
Jesus Christ is who he said he is. All else falls into place using history, science, philosophy, archeology, etc… to reconcile what is alleged in the Bible.
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The problem is that you confound science with cosmology, theology, and philosophy. Science only deals with complexity
and order. Origin has nothing to do with science. ‘The origin of a Species’ is not science but attempts to use a
version of science to justify origin concerns it propagates. Science should never be different based of some idea. It
should be rock solid. But the ’science of evolution’ is not rock solid and makes some fundamental assumptions that are
not correct. For example there are assumptions that are not true,
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1. Randomness is a naturalistic phenomenon
2. Evolutionary life is solely biological and does not need to account for spirit
3. Naturalistic information does not need to be addressed
4. Durable & repeatable evolutionary phenomenon can be observed only once
5. Spirited Biological life can be sparked into existence from inert materials
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Evolution is frequently buried in obfuscation; It is so slow no one can see it; It so complicated that it is difficult
to understand; There is no cause and effect predictability its just random; etc…
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Wow this sounds like science – not!
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MrMiami,
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I would like to address your first post before the second.
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YOU SAID: How a God who created the universe NOT be part of the science that he created?
—- EXACTLY! Your god offers no explanations for scientific theory but you insert your god into the equation based on information accessed from science. Don’t confuse vague remarks of the prophets to conclude to a result after science has discovered it. You call this creation theory… but you have no theory without proof. You call your proof faith; there is no theory of faith.
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Second Post***********************
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Your move… simply means that you are accusing Science of not being able to prove things… but we can. It’s your inability to review these truths… yes, I said truths. The bonfire was not a symbol of any biblical tale; just as I would have not referenced George Luca’s “Star Wars” as an example of the difference between sciences in faith.
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You need to remember something MrMiami, it is not WE who have to prove anything to you. We have the proof, we have the timelines, we have the history, we have the culture, and we have the FACTS. In the end, it is YOU who came here to preach to us. But I have not seen anything worth thinking about. You have a book that contains no truths that can be verified in any way. The difference between science and religion is that science builds up facts to create a hypothesis to reach a conclusion. Your religious organizations find a conclusion, and then look for the “evidence” to back it up.
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Let’s address your supposed scientific errors and let me explain them to you.
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1. Randomness is a naturalistic phenomenon
—- Science talks about mutations, this is TRUE! Just because science can not tell you where, when, and why a species mutates, does not mean it does not happen. We assume this will happen because it will. Just like you assume that if you jump in fire that you will be burned.
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2. Evolutionary life is solely biological and does not need to account for spirit
—- Science has found nothing to believe that there is a “spirit”. Please give us some type of scientific proof, and I assure you… the scientific community will arrange for the change. But since you can not give proof, please assume that science will not account for this. The same way your religious organizations do not change the bible to reflect evolution. The main difference is that when science finds proof it will change the views of almost everybody in the community. The bible is infallible and if an error is found then the fundamental idea of truth is evolved into something more ambiguous. The community say “I’m sorry… we made a “TRANLATION” mistake… what it really means is… (insert religious board to make something completely unclear… thus irrefutable). “…that depends on what the meaning of is… is”. – Clinton
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3. Naturalistic information does not need to be addressed
—- Anything that does not have truths (proof) behind it to enforce a law… will not be addressed. This is science. Take it or leave it, science (one again) is based on provable laws. Religion bases itself on the assumption that people will believe anything they are told. —- harsh… but very true.
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4. Durable & repeatable evolutionary phenomenon can be observed only once
—- How can something repeatable occur only once? You may want to reword this.
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5. Spirited Biological life can be sparked into existence from inert materials
—-Once again, give me proof of a spirit and we can talk.
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Darwin is not the PROOF of evolution. Darwin simply started the scientific movement. The 150 years of scientific labor is what makes up the “theory of evolution”. Darwin died a very long time ago.
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One thing you are saying is that Science is too big for you to wrap your head around, therefore you find it hard to understand and even more difficult to find truths that dispute ID. Science says that mutation is random but it is a fact that it exists and happens. I’m sure you believe in lightning… science can tell you where lighting will happen, but not when. This does not mean that the Meteorology was created by god and therefore too hard to understand. It’s simply random. Maybe this would help you understand.
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You have still failed to give me any proof on the existence of any ID proposed god. This is the only question I am really interested in getting answered. All the other stuff is just an attempt to help you answer your questions. I love to discuss religion. Your interesting because it seems your IQ is somewhere above 120. I don’t understand how anybody who is intelligent cannot see the obvious flaws in religion regarding dogma and how religion has been used throughout history as a tool for political control.
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Asking you to prove the existance of god is a loaded question. Please explain to me then why YOU believe that there is a god somewhere that created the universe. After that, please explain the following:
1.) Why does god need to be praised?
2.) Does Jesus Christ need to be your personal savior in order to get into heaven?
3.) Why does god need man to carry out killing others in his name.
4.) Why does god need man to enforce rules?
5.) Why does god need man?
6.) Why did an omnipotent god change the rules?
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I have many, many more questions… but these will do the job just fine for now.
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I’m not a sharp person by nature… I’m pretty open-minded and love an educated discussion. There does, however, need to be some sort of truth to the story. Please don’t talk in circles like the others… give me a reason to think. Please take into account that I have logical discussion with ID purveyors on a daily basis and I am just sick of people that use faith as a reason to believe. I don’t care if others use faith to believe themselves… but if you want to make me see the light… I need proof.
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I really don’t understand why they are allowed to make this decision at all. Someone needs to define what the first amendment means when it says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. Doesn’t this mean that we aren’t allowed to have anything to do with religion in a public (i.e. government owned) facility? In fact, why does someone open each day of congress with a prayer? Isn’t that right on the line? I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe but when our children are subjected to those beliefs someone needs to step in and have a word with them. State mandated religious teachings is what many of our founding fathers, and their ancestors, were trying to get away from when moving to America. Why are we trying to bring those things back? Furthermore, can anyone produce any scientific evidence that supports intelligent design? I’ve seen a lot of Bible verses that support it but when was the last time the Bible was held up as a scientific standard?
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@Shawn Pate:
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In your post, you made reference to several disciplines and approaches; science, theology, and religion. Science deals with complexity and order and establishes test for certainty. Theology is the rational and systematic study of a deity and on the nature of human reality. Religion is the practice of a theological doctrine.
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Obviously, you have assumed an ‘us against them’ posture. In short, you have chosen sides. Perhaps you should think about the side you have chosen. Being on the losing side is not a good idea. I have seen this before, either you are for us or against us; Romans 8:31.
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I find your remark ‘We do not have anything to ‘prove’ curious. You have all this ‘proof’ to ‘prove’ something. So in truth you do have something to prove and it sure sounds like you are preaching to me. Your worldview is one that you emerged from inert materials that underwent a Frankenstein animation processes eons ago. You are nothing more than a bunch of biological and natural processes that become worn out and return to dust from whence you came.
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Randomness does not exist. That is the point behind Chaos Science. This science, that you obviously lack skill in, states that the vast majority of the universe is ordered and indeterminate. James Gleick wrote about
this in his Book, ‘Chaos, Making a New Science’. The entire Evolution argument is built on the notion that the naturalistic phenomenon of ‘random’ action acts through natural selection, genetic drift, and mutation and adaptation resulting in transpecies speciation. When the science of chaos states it is impossible for randomness to exist. It is almost laughable at your lack of technical skill and understanding. You obviously put faith in Evolution and its contrived evidence.
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Accounting for the spirit is not difficult. Look at your spirited response. It is just an empirical observation I made. Where did your anger, despise, and aggressiveness come from? There seems to be a science to psychology. How effective is the science of psychology at explaining your conduct and resolving your life issues? There are attempts under Evolution made to explain consciousness with the quantum brain. Your conscience is nothing more than the collapse of an unstable protein tubule that forms a stream of consciousness. That does not explain much about you and your morale conduct. You must agree that morale conduct exists as you possess a sense of right and wrong. Please explain this to me. What is the science of this? There are books on the science of Good and Evil.
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Naturalistic information does exists. For one it is found in your DNA. Your DNA has information stored in it and has information acting on it. Where did this come from? Evolution states that DNA is a blueprint for life and there is information found in a blueprint. Information science indicates that a bit has heat content and that information and thermodynamics are one and the same. Once again you have demonstrated a lack of scientific understanding. I am getting the sense that you really do not know what you are talking about.
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Science rigor states that naturalistic principles withstand the test of time and consistently operate anywhere in the universe. However, only one evolutionary thread line is running building the current tree of life which is not in line with evolution. If all life came from a primordial globule then why is the microbe kingdom apart from the plant and animal kingdoms in the tree of life. It seems to me that the microbe branch should be above the rest of the tree. Why are there not other thread lines running randomly? Additionally, why have soup kitchen efforts to spark the building blocks of life always produced the proteins and amino acids in an environment hostile to carbon based life? I don’t see the ‘proof’ that carbon based life sparked into existence. Please provide this scientific proof or is this another point of faith in your evolutionary cosmological model?
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I just watched a several specials on Darwin. Everyone of the specials focused on Darwin’s rejection of faith and daring alternative to faith. There was nothing in the realm of science (complexity and order) discussed? Instead he took walks and listened to his wife. That makes everyone married a genius. This sent the signal to me that Darwin was not looking at science but for a cosmological alternative. He even called his revelation “The Origin of a Species”.
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I’ll address your God questions after you address your lack of scientific understanding. I need to see your proof of evolution first. Also please explain the innumerable hoaxes perpetrated to manufacture evidence in support of Evolution.
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After you have addressed these points I’ll address the doctrinal issues of the Judeo/Christian faith.
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@ mnky9800n
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Q1: Someone needs to define what the first amendment means when it says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.
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A1: The US forefathers studied morale and ethical systems when designing the United States Government. They agreed among themselves that the system most friendliest to governance was the Judeo/Christian Bible.
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“The Christian Religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind” Thomas Jefferson March 23, 1801.
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“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissolvable bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity”, John Quincy Adams
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The US Bill Of Rights was ratified by Congress in 1791 but not without a hot debate by the forefathers. George Mason, an Episcopalian, strongly influenced by the Bill of Rights amendments. They built the US Bill of Rights directly from the 10 commandments. The first four commandments are God’s rights that include his right to his people and self-definition. Therefore, governments cannot interfere with God’s rights as they are sub-servant to God. Thomas Jefferson Declared, ” …To secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.”
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Furthermore, there are two Supreme court rulings that are in contradiction. The 1892 ruling “The United States vs The Trinity Church” in which there is an opinion written that the United States is a Christian Nation and these are a religious people. The justice provided a 400 year history of veritable evidence for his opinion. The later ruling of “Everson v. Board of Education” in 1947 which is separation of Church and State was based on a single letter between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist. You’ll need to decide which has the greater credibility.
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In short, the Forefathers original intent was not to force God upon men as God does not force himself upon men. So who are men to try? They were convinced that the Christian religion was the ideal framework for governance.
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Q2: Can anyone produce any scientific evidence that supports intelligent design? I’ve seen a lot of Bible verses that support it but when was the last time the Bible was held up as a scientific standard?
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A2: The Bible is not a science but science can be used to validate and authenticate the Bible. This takes not only an understanding of the Bible but also an understanding of Science. It can be a quite lengthy study. Unfortunately, there is not a stable model for Intelligent Design as both Secular and Christian influences are at work on it. I’ll demonstrate in another post how the process is conducted.
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@ mnky9800n
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In the Judeo/Christian doctrine the view is that God created the universe and the science within the universe. The doctrine further expresses that God is active participant in the universe. It is a self-truth he professes and is only understood by believers. In fact, all Gods profess self-truths and these self-truths are only important to those in the community of faith.
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There is a way for someone outside the community of faith to use science to reconcile what any God says and attempt to validate truth in what that God remarks. That is to conduct a scientific experiment or investigation into the order behind a complex object that is discovered. Once the scientific investigation is concluded and the order is understood then take what is now known and reconcile with a God’s remarks that are in his scriptural text and as doctrinally understood. If there is a match or congruence that has contextual relevance then you have made another discovery.
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For example, Quantum Physics has discovered particles can be smashed in a particle accelerator to a point that matter becomes quantized or discrete. This occurs in the Planckian Realm. At that next instance when these discrete chucks of matter are to be smashed one last time they instead disappear entirely. In fact, matter ceases to exist. What remains are waveforms, light waves. Particle physics then models the light waves and calls them strings which vibrate harmonically. Hence, string theory emerges which can be dimensionalized up to four dimensions; X, Y, Z and time coordinates. It is thought that these strings (light waves) come together in a process, yet to be explored, called ‘compactness’ to form a particle again. Hence, we arrive at the wave-particle theory of light. This activity in the Planckian is not random but instead probabilistic outcomes. In the end, discovery in quantum physics tells human beings that the fundamental state of the physical universe is based on light that comes together to form matter even though we do not have a complete understanding of the processes involved.
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Then one of these Christian scholars comes along and understands this discovery in Quantum Physics and rubs his brow. He then opens up the Bible and reads in Genesis 1:3, “God said, ‘let there be light and there was light.’” God began building the universe in the form of light. In this scholar’s mind there is a corroboration between scientific discovery and something that was mysteriously written nearly 4000 years ago before particle accelerators were on the planet. This scholar then thinks that is interesting but needs something more. So he turns to Herbrews 11:3 where is reads that the universe was made at God’s command and of things not visible. He then realizes that not all light is in the visible spectrum and that these particles that form from light are only 10 to the minus 35th meter in size. Wow, in this scholar’s mind that is a second corroboration made by science of something written long before this scientific discovery was possible.
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This is a basic example of how scientific discovery corroborates what was written in the Bible. I only skimmed the surface lightly. The same kind of validation and authentication occurs using other sciences such as Archeology, crytpology, and information sciences. The studies become very in depth relating science and mathematics to the Bible. Over time evidence and corroboration begin to mount and it statistically becomes an impossibility that the the Bible is not what it says it is. One truly needs an in depth understanding of mathematics and science to really dig into these topics I have breezed through. One has to be willing to study the Bible too. A high school, vocational school, community college, or Sunday school education does not buy one much insight.
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It takes personal effort and willingness to learn. Leonardo Da Vinci was a master at this using his Da Vincian principles such as a willingness to embrace the impossible or to throw everything up in smoke in order to look at things from a different perspective. Einstein would use image streaming and combinatory play in his minds eye. If you are to learn anything real you’ll need to act like one of the greats.
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Just considering that both ideas of creation of the world go back in time, one a lot more so then the other, they both are out-side the realm of science and that they both require faith of some type to believe. However, science can help point us in one direction or another by observable and testable happenings.
The fact that organisms that fall significantly short of how they naturally are supposed to be due to mutations or other imparments means they will soon die off seems to support that you have to have an amazingly excellent design to beginn with, other wise the organism dies out before it can pass on much if anything, according to the natural selection theory. This would seem to point more towards a Creator who got it right the first time and anything that strays to far from the original recipe fails at continueing it’s legacy. Organisms, according to the highly revered natuaral selection theory, don’t have the forgiveness of nature to get enough of a chance to fail and try again, fail and try again. If an organism fails in the bid for survival of it’s kind, it goes extinct and that’s that.
I know some people say adaptations are a sign of evolution, a short-term version of macro-evolution that should just be accepted as fact. Even with adaptaion, there are already the things needed present to make it work. A rabbit developes longer ears and shorter fur in a hot enviroment rather than a shorter earred, longer furred rabbit in a colder enviroment is still a rabbit. I’ve heard that people who don’t get enough to eat will grow longer than usual body hair in a relatively short time in the bodies attemt to stay warm. That’s an amazing thing that doesn’t prove evolution, it proves the amazing capabilities our bodies come pre-made with and that points towards a creative designer who knew what we would need.
Entropy, the breaking down and dis-order of things left to themselves, is a scientific fact that is a big argument against evolution. They rely almost entirely on the belief that if something, which has to somehow be there in the first place, is given enough time to itself and conditions that ware away at it, which is what causes entropy, some how creates and makes things falty somehow work.
Just looking at natural selection, the organisms that best exemplify a model of the thing best suited to live in a certain place are the ones that survive and carry on. They best exemplify the best model for a function in an enviroment. They continue a design, not create new ones!
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@paul mahoney:
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I agree that Evolution and Intelligent Design are both outside the realm of science. The schools need to do several things. First, they need to hire competent teachers and get away from the porn star and leftist guerilla teachers that seem to be the norm today. The leftist guerilla teachers put up political posters in the classroom and somehow use math to teach leftist ideologies. The porn star teachers have the porn star tattoos often located on the ankle, back of the neck, belly, or the small of the back to brand themselves ensuring payment for services. It seems they are getting it on with the students too. Competent teachers, on the otherhand, are educated in their subject matter which is not a teaching degree and are able to present multiple viewpoints without bias. Second, The cirriculum needs to split science apart from philosophy, cosmology, and theology. At a minimum, two course should be taught; science and a philosophy, cosmology, and theology comparative course.
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The comparative course should not be like my Democracy class in high school which turned out to be a course on why one party was always right and the other party was always wrong. That turned out to be one of the most difficult courses for my teachers who ever taught me. Why is planned parent hood only in poor minority neighborhoods if it is so good everyone? Why is the the economy consistently down whenever the balance of power in government is to one side? These were the type questions I was hitting my teachers with and they often sent me out of the class. Great teaching skills? The comparative course should present all sides without a bias. It should include respresentatives from each side teaching and evaluating thier piece of the coursework.
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The inability of the school boards to develop meaningful non-bias education gives rises to why people are home schooling and the voucher system. The immature response of the public schools and the teacher associations is to fight these and lobby for legislation to prevent it. This could give grounds for a wide spread uprising and underground schools that unteach and reteach the young. This has happened before. During the Cold War in Soviet States old Christian women taught in thier homes both religion and general education despite the Soviet Governments efforts to undermine Christianity and reteach the sciences, history, etc… that was inline with their political doctrines. The Soviet government lost that battle.
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I agree that mutation and adaption are known scientific phenomenon. However, that does not mean that they cause transpecies mutations over time. The breeding of dogs has not created a new species but instead created a lot of variation in that species. The evolutionists are so stressed to make thier belief seem valid that they call mutation and adaption horizontal evolution. Vertical evolution refers to transpecies mutation. The Evolutionist then obfuscate the issue by dropping horizontal and just say Evolution confusing the known with the unknown in order to make thier strange point. I would characterize this as an information warfare tactic and psyops on the Evolutionist part. If they had a valid argument this would not be necessary.
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In the end, our schools need to rethink their teaching cirriculum and the materials they are teaching if they desire to preserve truth and knowledge. There needs to be some sort of certainty of knowledge index that is a ‘audit’ of the creditability of knowledge. This is possible but the brainpower in American society is dimming. I think the bulb has become a faint glow. How does one attain better precision than the best precision he has? There is an answer to that as we have done it once.
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I agree the design, not evolution, is a ongoing process.
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based on id theory, who designed the designer?
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Dear Mr Miami…
What makes your Christian God superior to any other God?
Religion is blindsided by its own obsession with stamping is authority on all aspects of life.
Science moves with evidence. If scientific evidence proved your God’s existence, you would then accept all scientific tennets.
And for that matter, I would believe in God as a scientific priniciple.
Until then, the most logical system is that of evolution and adaption of species in the survival of the fittest.
Peace out
Si
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Me, I’m not a Christian, I’m Jewish. And I really, really wish that you idiot gentiles would stop trying to interpret my book. You guys stink at it.
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Hmm… I guess the only part about ID I don’t get is, why would a Creator create a world and encourage life and also create a world that hides all marks of and ID?
I guess using the bible as a guide, with the comparison of Quantum Mechanics and the third verse of the bible is as useful as useful as comparing the death of Henry II with Century 1, Quatrain 35 of Nostradamus. In hindsight you can infer any hidden meaning.
I am just curious as to what ID predicts? The theory of Evolution makes observations, and predictions. ID only observation.
You seem to know your stuff MrMiami, I am hoping that you could help me with these little hurtles.
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As a theologian who specializes in Biblical translation, I can tell you that the scholarly evidence compiled thus far does nothing to provide evidence for the “truth” of claims within the “scripture”, whether it is the Hebrew Scriptures or the “New Testament”. In fact, historical and archeological evidence contradict the claims of authorship made within the Bible, and translational errors persist and are the foundation of major Christian doctrines being propogated today. In the end, there is no “proof” or solid factual basis for faith. Consqeuntly, if one has faith in the creation of the world by a deity, the truth of that creation lies only within the mind and emotions of the believer.
All the same, having a dual degree in biology, I can say that there are plenty of issues with the supposedly proven theory of evolution. To assume that anything in science is actually proven is just bad science! There is nothing in science that can ever be considered to be a finality. The theory of evolution has issues, but at the moment, it’s the best one that we have. That doesn’t mean it’s true any more than any other religion’s creation story is true.
As for “separation of church and state”, to be really nerdy, I will tell you guys that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, who were the originators of the concept, did not actually intend for religion to be excluded from the public arena. Their intent was to ensure that people could publicly practice whatever religion they wanted, and to make sure that the government didn’t exclude Deists, Jews and minority Christian groups from political office.
Due to the modern presence of so many various religions, it is absolutely ridiculous for these people in Florida to think it’s practical to give fair voice to religious views in a public school. If they are going to teach “Intelligent Design”, which is blantantly Christian creationism, then they should give fair voice to the other religious creation stories as well. I’m sure that they aren’t remotely willing to do that. Perhaps Christian parents should take the responsibility for child-rearing seriously, as their Bible suggests they should, and teach them about creation at home.
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My belief in god depends on the definition of “god”. If god is merely something that made us, then I dont have a problem with the existence of a “god”. Something caused the universe to exist. If the world is the product of “chance”, then I can call “chance” my maker, or god. I have a problem with how people picture god and expect god to behave in a certain way, or treating “god” like a being that can feel, see and hear. So if god was defined as an all-powerful, all-good creator, then i dont belive in a god.
I fail to understand this argument. Evolution doesnt disprove (or prove) god. Its just a way life has developed. God could have caused evolution. Its could be his intelligent design that the fittest survive. Saying that god made us is more an answer to the question:”who made us?” than “how did we come aboutt?”
The theory of evolution has holes in it, but its still a pretty good guess at how we came about, compared to just popping into existence at gods will.
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@cina murtad
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In intelligent Design the designer is acknowledged by both Christian’s and secularist. The Secularists such as Physicists Paul Davis acknowledge that the evidence for design is overwhelming and attribute the design to ‘a designer’. The Christians reconcile the evidence of design found in science with the scriptures claiming that the identity of the designer is the Judeo/Christian God. So the Chrsitians just take the understanding a bit farther than the secularist who acknowledge the evidence of design. Granted not all secularists understand the design notion and many think it is simply a ‘christian’ thing.
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@Simon
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I think you made a very Christian point here. You are really arrogant and prideful to think that a God is a possession of a human. If I had a God, he is not mine. I would be his. I think that is the point of a God.
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@Bonzo
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There are a lot of Christians tired of the Jewish not getting the message.
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@Jason
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You asked, “Why would a Creator create a world and encourage life and also create a world that hides all marks of and ID?”
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In the Christian worldview, God does not hide but insteads enjoys the thrill of discovery. Creation is ordered in a way to allow humans to find the ‘easter eggs’. He designed in the character of men and women different kinds of curiosity. Men are designed to ‘wild at heart’ and become adventurous, explorers, scientist, engineers, etc… and women were designed to be adventurous in other ways. God’s fingerprints are said to be all over creation. There are entire works on this topic.
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ID does not predict anything. ID is a school of rational thought that houses numerous theories. In ID, God is often called the watchmaker. Evolution is one theory under an umbrella of theories known as the Blind Watchmaker Theories. The difference between the two is not only is there a God or not but the science is different bwtween the two.
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@Cinna
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I disagree. In fact, review of the Theologians who worked on the Dead Seascrolls would disagree with you too.
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@Googie
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Evolution is counter to the science the Designer put in place. Evolution relies on a couple of axioms that are untrue. First, true randomness does not exist in this universe at all. There is no mathematical formula, the language of science, that can model it. Probability cannot be random because it is a limited set of outcomes with recurring patterns that are characterized by a mathematical formula. Second, there is no evidence of vertical or transpecies mutations. For hundreds of years dogs have been bred all kinds of ways and all we have are dogs, a lot of kinds of dogs. There has been no genetic drift, no random actions, and no adaptation causing dogs to become another species.
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Science deals with complexity and order only. Thoughts of origin are not science. Hence, Darwin’s ‘Origin of a Species’ is not a science but instead an attempt to use science in order to develop a cosmological revelation that you are the result of random action. The counter view to this is that you were designed and created for a purpose. Life in this counter view is defined as an embodiment and a spirit. There is an image that was placed into your embodiment and calls out to your conscience. Life under evolution is defined as a series of biological and chemical processes. Evolution as a cosmological revelation cannot account for your self-awareness and conscience.
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I highly encourage you to seek out understanding of these things in greater detail.
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What really gets me is that they want to teach ID as science. OK, sure, lets put ID in a science class. If it is a serious science class then ID would have to be treated as a hypothesis as there is no proof. Evolution, on the other hand, can be taught as a theory as there is proof. Why don’t they just teach ID in theology, it is a religious, or faith based, hypothesis, it belongs in religious instruction or theology, not science. ID also happens to be a reaction of the Christian Churches to evolution blowing their creation myth out of the water. It is a hypothesis tailored to trying to hold back the tide of evidence. Furthermore, it is treated as a joke everywhere but in the USA.
The other thing is why do religious people want to convince others of their beliefs. You believe in your god and hypotheses about creation and the like, fine. But why do you have to try and convince me? I’m not running around trying to convince religious people not to believe in god, I assume it is their choice. Why can’t you leave me to my choice. What is your problem?
DS
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@DavidSSS:
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You are exactly right one problem is choice. Another problem is the science.
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IRT choice: You are viewing the situation through your choice lense insisting that your choice is right and want to limit other choices. For what ever reasons you made a choice and the presence of another choice challenges you to rethink your current position. Evolution is masquerading as a science. It is not a science or a theory. It is a cosmological revelation from its inception. Evolution is an alternative to other thoughts, principally Christianity. Evolution has theories and a science that are used to justify it. Evolution is challenged on its cosmological revelation and it is challenged on its science (its sense of order and complexity). You must be willing to reflect on challenges to your beliefs to either confirm them or deny them. If you cannot do that then your understanding has no substance.
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IRT the science: People make up thier science to fit their strange beliefs. It is certainly the case with Global Warming and so far it is the case with evolution. The very underpinnings of evolution are not even remotely true and honest science has shown this too many times. So all the higher level arguments are senseless because the foundation has been washed out. I cringe at these high school teachers who teach crap science and listen to them espouse their strange personal views as some sort of naturalistic axiom. Folks I cannot say this enough science only deal with complexity and order vice randomness.
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What needs to happen is ethics and integrity needs to return to science. Teachers need to teach on the basis of complexity and order. A humanitarian course needs to teach ideologies like Evolution, Christianity, buddism, Islam, etc… In fact, a comparative humanities course would do wonders in solving this problem. But the greatest thing we need to do is restore science to its prestine state untouched by evolution or other doctrines.
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Religious people share their understanding not much different than evolutionist insist on their belief. It seems all humans need a God and part of a life’s adventure is to discover who is that God. Even atheist have a God that is a NULL. They defend a NULL with ferocity despite claiming they have nothing to defend. But attack thier defensive points, mainly evolution, and they go beserk.
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In the end, humans cannot get away from “The God Issue”. It is clearly part of our make up. Some people defend God and other people deny God. This only tells me that there is something to deny and it must be God. So which side of God are you on?
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how can you tell us that becuase we deny god there must be something to deny? your arguements are seriously lacking and i dont want to waste my time when all i will have thrown back is content taken from the bible which just happens to be the only unstable evidence your religion has. forget about this holy spirit for a minute and really think about where the bible has come from, who wrote it and what time of time frame it would have been made up over. think back to playing chinese whispers in school. unfortunatly delusion is wide spread in our species.
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@davehead:
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Stop referring to ‘my religion’ I never once stated anything about ‘my religion’. Just because I have knowledge and can argue from various positions does not reveal who I am. It only reveals that I have an understanding. It is because of my understanding that I have choosen something that is unknown to you.
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I have not thrown back Bible verses. So get off your high horse!
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We live in a polar universe; off or on, black or white, good or evil, male or female, left or right, up or down, hot or cold, God or no God. One cannot deny something if its alternative exists. It an old Greek philosophical argument.
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In the Christian worldview, the Bible was written over 2000 years and is a anthrology of 66 books penned by 44 different scribes. The Christians believe that it was inspired by the Holy spirit (coincidentally, there is an evil spirit too) in order to maintain a consistent message. In otherwords, humans wrote it down who were inspired by the Holy Spirit and God himself authored it. There is no single source of the Bible other than God. It was assembled from principally three different document sets. Two are dated around 1000 AD were used to organize the King James Version of the Bible. The other document set was discovered later, 1947, and was written at the time of Christ by the Qumran. The 1947 document discovery corroborated the earlier document discoveries validating the King James version of the Bible as an accurate account. Coincidentally, the document set written at the time of Christ is the Dead Sea Scrolls and was discovered by a nomadic sheppard searching for his lost sheep the day the U.N. voted to form the nation of Israel, May 14th, 1947.
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Christ is a lamb, church leaders are sheppards, and believers are sheep. Is it odd that a sheppard is searching for his lost sheep and finds the Dead Sea Scrolls at the same time Israel is formed as prophetized? It is a little spooky to me.
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By the way, the in the Christian Worldview God’s fingerprints are all over creation. In order to see this evidence you’ll need to study what the Bible is saying and have a firm graspof science. However, you seem so repulsed by the Bible that you’ll never known what it truly says. I also doubt you’ll ever have a honest understanding of science either. So you’ll probably believe whatever Star Trek fantasizes or so nut like Micheal Schermer who follies with people who will believe just about anything.
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not trying to argue or be a dick now… youve studied way to much to arguments over the internet, so im guessing you have other reasons for studying this topic? if you have one what is your religion? or what are your beleifs? seems youve argued against points people have made with material you have read but havnt givin your own point of view. so… what are your beliefs on how the universe was created?
i have to say sorry, after reading back i realised you havnt been throwing bible quotes as alot of people do.
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@Davehead:
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It is true I have studied these topics and more. I prefer to keep my faith closely held at this time.
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My views of the universe’s creation process are emerging as I learn more. My original career was in Aerospace Engineering which has influenced my understanding tremendously. Knowing what I know after nearly 400 quarter hours of education of which I have extensive mathematics training and physics coursework there are several things I cannot embrace. They are:
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1. There is no such thing as true randomness. It amazes me how many people believe the natural ‘order’ is to be ‘random’. Those two conditions are mutually exclusive of each other! They cannot coexist except in the minds of humans.
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2. I cannot embrace the classic sense of a miracle which centers on a ‘god’ acting out of his sovereignty to do something that appears unnatural or magic – random. In time, even Biblical miracles are revealed to humans and a science or order to the event becomes understood. In the Biblical view, miracles are never the point either. They are attention getters to make a point.
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3. I cannot embrace the most of the ’science’ of evolution. A vast majority of the material is simply is not science. Both Darwin, Dawkins, and Sagan are plagued by the same problem. They allow their cosmological views to influence their sense of science. In fact, Sagan was known to go on TV and make shocking remarks about humanity with bogus science. Sci-fi writer, Michael Crichton, wrote an interesting commentary called ‘Aliens Cause Global Warming’ which highlights some of the problems.
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The creation process may be something far different than evolution and even the creationist view of a potter at work. The natural process of creation may center on quantum discovery and string theory concepts. The process ‘ingredients’ may be light and information.
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What I am about to describe sounds like the ‘Holodeck’ in ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ but was understood long before the TV show fantasized about this technology. The natural process could be this notion of ‘compactness’ in which light waves come together to form a particle. Hence, the particle-wave theory of light. Information is then added that causes the particle to form in specific ways as it becomes more complex during a natural assembly process through the orders of magnitude (sub-atomic, atomic, mesophysical, molecular, physical, etc..). Additional information is then forward staged or buffered in a register of sorts in the form of DNA to facilitate the creation of life. Intelligent molecular machines (made of protiens and amino acids) known as nano-probes go to the DNA gather instructions then endow biological life. Hence, human natural existence may only be the execution of this process as through a quantum computer is executing some algorythm.
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While this explains the natural it does not explain the presence of a conscience or the human spirit. Also science cannot explain where the information comes from in the DNA? So the points on origin are not of science but a cosmological, theological, and philosophical discussion.
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In short, high school science gets it very wrong when they call evolution a science!
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Humans have three basic questions they need to answer during their lives and they are not science questions:
1. Where do I come from?
2. Why do I exist?
3. What happens when I die?
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Evolution attempts to answer with a false sense of science.
1. Where do I come from? Chemical and biological processes.
2. Why do I exist? It happened out of random chance
3. What happens when I die? decompose to inert matter
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The Bible attempts to answer with a revelation.
1. Where do I come from? You were known before the foundations of time and placed into an embodiment by a patient and loving God.
2. Why do I exist? The purpose of humans is to worship a God who desires to be among humans.
3. What happens when I die? The body and spirit are separated for the purpose of judgement. Those who are saints are retunred to a new embodiment made perfect and prepared for entry into New Jerusalem. Those who rejected God are condemned. You don’t him then he does not want you.
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For reflective purposes I’ll compare this to Islam:
1. Where do I come from? No explanation other than created by Allah. The Koran creation account speaks of the Earth on the back of a gallactic turtle.
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish.
3. What happens when I die? Allah decides who gets into Mulsim Utopia. The only assured way is to be a martyr or esentially commit suicide. Coincidentally, in Christianity suicide is a unforegivable sin – it is an assured way to get in to hell or the Hotel California (a song about living a material life then dying and going to hell).
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BTW Sura 112 in the Koran is direct denial of John 3:16 in the Bible. It cracks me up to listen to people argue that Islam and Christianity are nearly the same since they came from Abraham. There are no closest points of approach. The two are diametrically opposite on EVERY single point they make. Abraham’s mention is only token in Islam and his mother Ter was a moon worshipper and the source for the Crescent a top the mosque. Abraham for no real explanation rejected all the Gods being worshipped and worshipped only one God – the Judeo\Christian God.
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Anyhow, the point being in all this is that science deals with complexity and order. If that alone is taught then I don’t see a problem. Evolution is clearly a cosmological revelation and has no place in the public schools.
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@all:
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I type these responses late at night often and sometimes confound my sentences. I need to clarify a statement.
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Under the Islam comparison:
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish
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Should read:
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims; namely the Christians and the Jewish.
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i would have alot to write about it i had the patience to write so much and know where to begin.. i dont know how you do it. I do believe that existance is random and has no place for things such as fate, kama and all those sorts of superstition. I dont think i need to explain my view on miracles. Although evolution seems a bit far fetched i think is the best answer i have heard of so far. Im sure most of us understand that its entirely possible that can be scrapped and a new theory can take its place.
one event i cant seem to embrace is the big bang. in my view for there to be a big bang there needs to be something there in the first place. maybe we are living in a universe that has always existed and doesnt have a starting point. the large explosion at the so called begining may have been just a large star big enough that we cannot comprehend.
the reason i am so repulsed by the bible is that there is some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that… although i dont remember alot of it i had read parts of the bible during primary school in riligious instructions and alot of it just seemed like fairy tails. for example.. noahs ark. 2 of every animal on one boat? is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the earth? and the 7 days of creation… this might sound like a petty arguement but with the size of the unirverse, the amount of stars that are out there and all the other possible planets, why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? i dont think i remember the rest of the universe even being included. being 2 in the morning right now im a little tired and dont have concentration to word things properly but im sure you get my point. i believe science tries to give us answers and doesnt mind being proven wrong.
science may not be able to explain the human concience but it may in time. just as we were able to discover what each section of the brain was responsible for. got distracted and now ive forgotten what i was on about..
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MrMiami, we are glad you are no longer an areospace engineer. Unfortunatley in this culture we no longer believe ariplanes fly becuse angels are carrying them on their wings. Of course, everything is debatable, but we have yet to find a single angel feather stuck in the jet engine.
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The trouble with Christianity or any religion is its believers are at various stages of maturity in understanding the faith. As an outcome they make incorrect comments based on incomplete understandings. Common misunderstandings in Christianity include MATT 7:1; Judge Not yet ye be Judged. Some Christians actually believe they cannot judge based on this verse. The true understanding is the complete context of Matt 7 is man cannot condemn because that is God’s exclusive right. However, each man must make himself right in order to judge between right and wrong conduct. Other common misunderstandings include ‘turning the other cheek’ and capital punishment. To answer some of your questions, I’ll present a Christian view:
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Noah’s ark. Two of every animal on one boat? The Bible states that only land animals were taken on board. Fish were not. Christians also believe that only one breed of each species was brought on the ark. Over time there no transpecies mutations only interbredding that lead to the large variation in horses, cattle, dogs, birds, etc… The physical dimensions of the ark are in the Bible and it is large enough to carry feed and more animals than found in most zoos.
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Is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the Earth? Christians, for one, believe that the climate was different during the days of Noah. They believe a thick cloud cover enveloped the Earth in the early times. There was some climatic, solar, or planetary event that caused the cloud cover to disipate in the form of rain and contributed to the flooding. The collateral effect was also to shorten the human life span due to the aging effects of solar radiation. The Bible also remarks that the Earth itself opened up and water welled up out of the ground too.
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And the 7 days for creation? The Christian doctrine is that the Universe’s creation was in 7 days. Christian believers possess a wide variation on this theme. Fundamentalist typically remark that a day is 24 hrs and it took tooks days. Afterall, we are talking about a God. More relaxed thoughts consider a host of things. Science has clearly proven that the largest object is 10 to the plus 40th meters and the smallest is 10 to the minus 33 meters. These are limitations of boundaries on the physical universe. It is perfectly ordered and indeterminant. Hence, naturally there is no such thing as infinity in addition to there is no randomness either. The process of creation could have been ‘programatic’ development or evolutionary development. Some Intelligent Design proponents suggests that God wrote the ‘computer code’ in 6 days and executed it then rested. As the code ran it assembled the natural and God ‘tweaked’ the code from time-to-time. This view is consistent with many scientific findings.
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Some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that. The Christian view is one that dinosaurs and humans coexisted at one point. The Bible makes reference to two instances of large beast. It also makes references to giant humanoid life forms called the Nephylum. In part the Nephylum is why the great flood happened. Carbon dating has enormous errors in it of plus or minus 40,000 years too. Also science has proven that light is slowing down and physicists believe that light was far more quicker in the early universe. So if one is basing the age of the universe on the speed of light being constant then enormous errors could occur in computing the age of the universe causing one to think it is older than it is.
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Why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? The Bible account of creation indicates that the Earth was created BEFORE the rest of the universe because the Earth and the universe was design for human occupation. The Bible indiciates that Humans cannot see the largest or the smallest things, that the universe is made of nothing, and that Christ himself personally holds it together. Science has shown that in terms of orders of magnitude the Earth is located smack dabb in the center. Humans are at 10 to the zero meters and the Earth is at about 10 to the plus four meters. I spoke of the smallest and the largest already. Christians also believe that God exists outside space-time eventhough he is an active participant in space-time. Thus, if one is outside the fish bowl from that perspective it is not that grand of a place.
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Regarding the human conscience, science has struggled with what it defines as the mind-brain problem for eons. The closest science can come to this issue is the order and complexity of the brain. On a good day the closest a soft science, Psychology, can get to understanding the mind is so negligable that it is not worth mentioning. The mind is largely not understood. However, the best theory on the brain mechanics I can discern is the Holographic brain. Biblically, a human embodiment is composed of several spiritual elements; an image, a soul, and a metaphorical or analoguos heart. Christians believe that the mind and the heart are linked based on scriptures as usual. The Bible indicates that the Heart is so corrupted that once a human allows the Holy Spirit to enter the body the heart is cast out and a new one is given. The battle is for the human soul and in the end the Anti-christ goes to the extent of placing his image in humans embodiments who already have corrupted hearts linked to thier minds. God basically goes nuts over this and essentially raises hell.
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@all:
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I got to get better at this. Some quick corrections on review:
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1. At least two breeds needed to be on the ark in order to cause interbreeding.
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2. 7 day creation clarification. If humans can get a burger in one minute and eye glasses in an hour why can’t a God create a universe in 7 days? Don’t forget he is outside of his creation at the instant of creation. His spirit enter the Earth in the beginning but he, himself, did enter the time domain until he walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam. It he is outside space-time then time really has no relevance. When looking at the Fish bowl from outside the world inside seems pretty small.
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@Cannibal:
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Your insults are duly noted as a testament to you character.
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BTW there are three theories on why airplanes fly; circulation, mass flow rate, and pressure-vaccuum theories. They are only theories and no really knows why planes fly but none of those theories include angels.
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If your angel theory of flight did exist then I am confident that a feather would be stuck up your anal orifice putting you into flight.
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since its a first offence lets just pretend you didnt quote the bible. it has no place here. unless it comes from the writings of our profit, bobby. but yeah you didnt really use it as an arguement..
Im pretty sure the boat i have sitting my by back yard has enough room to hold the variety of animals kept at most zoos. did noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world? kangaroos arnt very good swimmers. even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution. just over a longer period of time adaptation comes in aswell.
even if the bible says so, i dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it. even if all the ice in the poles was to melt, aswell as glaciers. there wouldnt be enough water to flood the earth. clouds come from moisture from water evaporating from the earths surface so thats not going to make a very big contribution… an alternative would be it magically appeared. i think the link between global warming and the number of pirates is more believable.
there might be a variance of 40,000 years on carbon dating, but that is a marginal error that is still greater than the supposed age of the universe.
hasnt the bible changed from several times? one of the last times to accomidate the existance of dinosours? even with an error of 40,000 years carbon dating sets them back… say… millions of years ago.
as with the 7 day creation… im not going to go there. the Flying Spaghetti Monster could do it in 6. with ease.
i think apart from the human conscience, science has the brain worked out pretty well. well enough to perform surgury on it is good for me. might not always be succesful though. the heart is a muscle that pumps blood around our bodies. no more. doesnt have anything to do with corruption. i’ve met quite a few christians and i can say pretty easily theyre evil people and i have more morals than all of them.
where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute? im getting sick of waiting for my food at 2 am when i finish work. your last post seemed a little more christian. we dont need to know about any information from the bible.
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@Davehead
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You are asking questions about Christianity, hence I am presenting those views to you. And you continue to ask questions. I’ll continue to respond with the Christian view point.
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You asked, “Did Noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world?” The Christian understanding is that all the animals were onboard before the rain began and the Christian believe that the animals came to Noah based on Genesis 7:8-10.
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You remarked, “Even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution.” In Darwin’s own Tree of Life or the phylogenetic tree, breeds are a subset of a species. Therefore, increasing breeds does not cause a change in species. It causes a alot of different breeds within a species. Vertical evolution or transpecie evolution is not supported by breeding. The alleged science purported is “random” genetic drift. Using Leonardo Di Vinci practice of ‘demonstrazoni’ we have not observed or been able to demonstrate successful processes of ‘random genetic drift’. In fact, science is not possible if randomness exist because then the ethics of science demand repeatable demonstrations of the natural phenomenon or process. Anything random cannot be repeated since it will always be something else!
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You commented, “I dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it.” A Christian would remark that the Beverly Hillbillies had black gold, oil, bubble up from the ground! Second, Old Faithful blows out of the ground. Third, Coors beer is made from natural springs that orginate from underground. The natural condition of the Earth at the time of the Flood was a climate far different than today’s less violent Earth. Christian science sees the entire Earth completely enveloped in a thick cloud cover that probably reached higher than thunderheads today. This cloud cover completely disipated. There may have been large underground pools of water similar to todays oil reserves that became released perhaps with volcanic or tectonic forces. All this violent activity could have begun with an impact of a large meteor and the Earth has evidence of deep impacts in the past. Global temperatures also were higher due to the massive cloud layer and polar ice caps did not form until the cloud layer dissipated. This could account for where the water receded to after the 150 days.
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You commented, “Hasn’t the Bible changed from several times? One of the last times to accomodate the existence of dinosours?” The Bible has always commented directly on Dinosaurs in verses Job 40:15-24 and Psalm 104:25-26. There has been no change. Other references to large monsters include Genesis 6:4, the Nephillum. Some Christian’s speculate that Goliath of 1 SAM 17 was a Nephillum. Nephillum were all male creatures who were superhuman in strength and speed. Fallen angels were having sex with human women and creating this hybrid race of Nephillum or the fallen ones. In Greek they were called the Earth born. These beast are thought to return in the end times based on Biblical references.
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You queried, “Where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute?” My kitchen. Actually I believe MacDonalds grill time is exactly one minute for a hamburger patty. It may take you longer if they put all the trimmings on.
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What you need to do is take a serious look at all the arguments and worldviews to determine what it is you should beleive. Study science and ethics of scientific rigor. I think you’ll find that evolution completely falls apart and there is no stength to it. You’ll see Christain have a lot of silliness among the their thoughts. You’ll see idiocy in the Islamic views. You’ll need get down to the most fundamental basics and buildup from there. I have spent a lot of money and time since 2001 studying and writing papers trying to get a grasp on this illusion of life. It is not easy but I am coming to a point where I cannot find resources to satisfy my thirst for understanding. I have come along way I believe and it has cost me. I have been in vile arguments and even called out in church not for heresy, my beliefs or lack of belief but instead because the Pastor was not the Christian he purported himself to be. His
prideful arrogance oozed like ectoplasmatic slim. So who am i, a Christian, a atheist, an agnostic, or something else?
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You comment says the same about yourself.
MrMiami, there is 5,400 species of mammals, 9,703 species of birds, 8,225 kinds of reptiles, over a million described species of insects, and about 350,000 species of land plants.
Keep in mind that according to the definition, a species consists of a group of organisms thet can interbreed wth each other, but not with other species. You can’t cross an ostrich with a pelican and get a heron. Besides that, if interbreeding between different species could produce new species, then why aren’t we getting new kinds of animals every day? Why aren’t there no dragons, unicorns, or merimaids?
Now, the big question, how did Noah cart that menagerie around for 40 days even if he had the largest most technologically sophisticated ark humanity has eve seen?
Sorry, all your beloney sounds just like the angel theory of airplane flight. You obviously have a severely retarded understanding of science, especially biology.
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@Cannibal:
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Are you arguing just to argue? You are projecting, “I know you are so what am I?” You’ll need to stop the projection techniques. Those are methods that children use to get the lime light off of their poor conduct.
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My points exactly. If interbreeding between different species could produce new species, then why aren’t we getting new kinds of animals every day? Why aren’t there no dragons, unicorns, or merimaids? Evolution’s notion that genetic drift due to cross breeding and random action causes or creates a new species is NOT true.
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You asked, “How did Noah cart that menagerie around for 40 days even if he had the largest most technologically sophisticated ark humanity has ever seen?” First, off it rained for 40 days and the ark was afloat for 150 days. The size of the ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high; Genesis 6:15. If you are going to make remarks at least be accurate. A Christian would remark that there are on a Cruise ship, not much larger than the ark, a crew of 1000 and upto 2500 passengers with plenty of room to spare. Second, those numbers of species need to be verified. Third, you are only viewing things through a worldly lense. We are talking God here and maybe it was like a hippy commune onboard. Everyone was sleeping with everyone else. You know lions and tigers, cats and dogs. It was all about love.
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From a Christian and a science view point, if there is some sort of evolutionary process why has the process been elusive? If a stable process exists then why have we not seen animals in various stages of the evolutionary track from some protoplasmal globule to a human? Evolutionist claim it is a process that executed on one time and only one thread line is executing. Does that sound like a natural process? Science cannot even demonstrate the process through experimentation.
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What is the answer?
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@ALL:
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Paul Davies (Secular British astrophysicist): “There is, for me, powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all….It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe….The impression of design is overwhelming”.
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Davies, P. 1988. The Cosmic Blueprint: New Discoveries in Nature’s Creative Ability To Order the Universe. New York: Simon and Schuster, p.203.
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Once again I cannot embrace Evolution. It is a TRAVESTY that so-called educated people embrace the fantasy of evolution as a science when it is not. It is a BASELESS cosmological revelation that uses a pseudo-science whose underpinnings are false premises.
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True randomness does not exist as a naturalistic phenomenon. Hence, random genetic drift and random action simply do not occur. In the language of science, mathematics, there can be no formula for random action because it would become ordered and not random.
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Naturalisitc infintity does not exist in this universe. Hence this universe is bounded and there are only limited outcomes – probabilistic outcomes. In mathematics, infinity is a surreal number NOT a real number.
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Evolutionary processes are not testable nor demonstratable withstanding scientific rigor. Evolutionist obfuscate the evolutionary science in noise that is too complex, too slow, too random to fully understand which is counter to science.
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There is no empirical strength to evolution. It is mired in hoax after hoax after hoax.
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I CANNOT BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE SO GULLIBLE TO BELIEVE IN THIS EVOLUTION NONSENSE AND THAT WE ARE TEACHING THIS CRAP TO OUR YOUTH. HAVE WE NO SHAME? I SUPPOSE NOT.
Our children, our future, need to be taught the freedom of thought and HOW to learn. Telling our children some specific and not training them for independent thought is indoctrination not education!
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I’m not even going to bother argueing, you are talkng out of your arse.
Carl sagan (All round awesomeness): “It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
What proof is there to back anything that is written in any religious text? Intellegent design is fantasy. You seem like a smart enough person yet lack a grip on reality.
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@Davehead:
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Carl Sagan is known to be the worse physicists of all times. He allows his worldview to influence his science. He jumps the gun. Read the article byMicheal Crichton “Aliens Caused Global Warming” http://www.crichton-official.com/speech-alienscauseglobalwarming.html.
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Intelligent Design is as much a secular thing as it is a religious thing. The Christians take it farther than the secularist when they reconcile it with the Bible. Both acknowledge the evidence of design is overwhelming and compelling.
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I am not talking out of my arse. The problem is that too many people do not look at science through a non-bias lens. They come toit with a belief and try to fit the science to the belief. Evolution is such a belief.
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Lets see…
Firstly, unless you want to challenge the current theory of radioactive decay, I believe there’s enough evidence to suggest that the Earth is several billion years old. Of course, compared to these numbers, an error margin of 40,000 years is hardly significant (of course, you wouldn’t use the carbon-14 methodology in this case. More probably Uranium-238 decay, but I’m not really sure). So given this, I choose to believe that the bible is wrong, at the very least in this aspect of the issue: the Earth was not so recently “created” as it is claimed in ID.
Secondly, unless you think that the fossil remains of ancient hominids were placed by God to confound the unbelievers, those creatures existed. What you could challenge, perhaps, is that they share a connection with the human race.
Well… I study engineering. And as every good engineer knows, when one measures anything, be that the variation of temperatures in an oven or the neutralization curve of an acid, it is impossible, even forgetting about the errors implicit in the measuring, to take the infinite measures necessary to plot a COMPLETE curve that shows the behaviour of a system. So you just make do with some points in your graph, taking into account the errors involved. You look at them really hard and you say “Hm… I think this looks like an exponential/linear equation/quadratic equation”. After this, you use your preferred adjusting or interpolating program and voilá. There you have the equation that solves, with reasonable error, your problem.
And wether you want to believe it or not, that IS science. It’s science at it’s most basic. Down to when I had to measure a table with a ruler fifty times the first day I went to physics laboratory.
And that is what the theory of evolution is about. You look at similarities between fossils and current humans and you plot a possible “course of evolution” throughout prehistory. As you learn more and find more fossils, you discard some lineages, as you would discard a temperature measure that was wrongly taken in the oven. And you improve your theory.
So, to put it simply, ID contradicts several scientific findings, whereas evolution does not. Granted, the theory of evolution might not be complete, but it, also, evolved and still evolves.
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“1. Where do I come from? No explanation other than created by Allah. The Koran creation account speaks of the Earth on the back of a gallactic turtle.
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish.
3. What happens when I die? Allah decides who gets into Mulsim Utopia. The only assured way is to be a martyr or esentially commit suicide. Coincidentally, in Christianity suicide is a unforegivable sin – it is an assured way to get in to hell or the Hotel California (a song about living a material life then dying and going to hell).”
Wow, way to make a comparitive to Islam and not know anything about it. No further explanation? Maybe you should read up more about Abraham, buddy. Reason to exist? It’s called Tawhid, one of the most fundamental concepts in Islam. What happens when I die? They call it paradise, or a state closer to the will of Allah.
I can’t believe you find a few lines that contradict each other and claim that the religions are all that different. At the core, the values that each one holds, is identical. The story of Jesus and the Ressurection is a must believe in Christianty, and that is where they part, but the values held by each or scarily similar. If you came here to defend Christianity, just know that we were never attacking it.
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Religius theories and Evolution theories. Yes BOTH of them is theories, becaus none of it is just more than jsut that, theories. We can’t say that God exist, and we cant say that he is existing. The same is to the evolution theories, we don’t have enough proof that neither of them exist. But the human mind needs something to belive in, and with that in mind, we humans create something to belive in, either if it is Religion or if it is Evolution.
Now, have anyone of you seen Zeitgeist? It takes up quite many interesting paralells between religius faiths, at least in part one. And no, I don’t take this up becaus I want to pick a fight. I do it becaus of davehead, MrMiami and Cannibals “dirt-flings” if I have the right to say so.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
Watch it, becaus it gives a loot interesting things, the only thing is that the intro is 9 minutes and that it contains some not-so-good laughters in it. Watch part one ( 30 min after the intro ) and if you try to discuss it here, please use proper language and don’t kick on others beliefs.
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When it comes down to religion in school run it as a theology class, history 101 of the worlds religions.
Broadening the view of kids and showing them how like most religions are is never a bad idea…altho bible thumpers(of any religion) will get their noses out of joint over it because they can not be on top….
Pastafarianism modern parody or not is a off shoot of Christianity like a dozen other variants that has odd or strange customs its not better/worse than them.. whats the old saying, whats the diffrance in a “religion” and a “cult”, numbers,popularity,ect,ect…
For the most part one could agree with it but my take is (in a zippyisim non the elss)
“The purpose of religion is to bring humans together to understand them selfs and their faith, when it divides people into petty labels and damns them for being “different” it is nothing more than a cult that lives off fear,greed and ignorance, for its far more easy to hate and fear than love, forgive and move on.”:ZippyDSmlee
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Science answers the “how”, not the “why”. Evolution is a theory to explain how life, from it´s humble beginings, evolved to more and more complex forms and even sentient beings.
It does not answer “why” there are sentient beings, especially not why you and me are here. Nor it explains what our “purpose” is or what we can expect after our death.
If you are looking for answers to these questions, you´ll likely not find them through evidences, facts or observations. You´ll find them within yourself. And each has to find his own answers.
But confusing your personal answers to these questions with the hard reality of facts, evidences and observations is folly. It is simply not enough to show shortcomings and obscurities within scientific theories. A theory doesn´t have to be perfect, it just needs to be *better than any other theory*.
So we can´t disprove the existence of the jewish/christian/islamic god and therefore need to teach creationism in schools?
Than we have to teach the existence of the FSM as well, as no one can disprove It. We also have to teach the theory of “hey we´re all living in a gigantic computer simulation it´s true i swear” because no one can disprove it. Hell, no one can “disprove” that *I* created the universe within the last 5 minutes.
At some point its not about “can we disprove it” but rather about “how far does it get us?” Science has the advantage that people are actually welcome to argue about it. The scientific view of the world and the universe has changed, sometimes dramatically, through the last centuries. Instead of ignoring or repressing new evidence, it is evaluated and integrated.
And lastly, “God did it” doesn´t explain anything.
“God created humanity” is an explanation for our existence as “factories created cars” is for the existence of the automobile. It always begs the question “Well, where did God come from?”. And that question is left just as unanswered as the question “where does the universe come from” is by science.
“Why do I exist?” Because God wants it. “Why does he want my existence?” Uh… because he has got some divine plan we wouldn´t understand. Great. So I exist for some reason I won´t understand anyway, but hey, I´m glad there is a reason after all…
Where do I go when I die?” Apparently to some greast place, kinda makes you wonder why we have to put up with this existence here on earth anyway. And why do so few people ask “Where were I before I died?” I mean, that question is just as important, isn´t it?
If I came from nothing, it´s quite likely I´ll just go back to nothing. If I existed in some form, I apparently have no memories – which are essentially to define “me”. Even if I continue to exist in some form, without my memories, my personality, it won´t be “me”.
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@davehead comment of May 2th 2008:
davehead said:
“one event i cant seem to embrace is the big bang. in my view for there to be a big bang there needs to be something there in the first place. maybe we are living in a universe that has always existed and doesnt have a starting point. the large explosion at the so called begining may have been just a large star big enough that we cannot comprehend.”
There is a theory under development, quite radical but of simple mathematics. Depending on your formation (I haven’t quite read here a lot, so I don’t know if you’re a physist or a vet or what) it may be readable from the several articles being published. Search Scientific Commons for Montemayor-Aldrete et al. There are right now at least 4 articles for the Crystalline Vacuum Space Model.
Now the following is far more Star Trek than what MrMiami said… but being a psychologist I’ll do my best to simplify. The model proposes a universe with crystaline properties in which matter is just a defect and Big Bangs work to release gravitational tension of the structure. So there is no single Big Bang, there is no need for something at the beginning of time, and there is not a single universe at a time.
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MrMiami.
I am a Hindu by birth, not a Christian, but i see where you are coming from. I would understand my plight to be the same as yours. Whether we be Hindu, Christian, Atheist or Pastafarian, we did not assume that we “know”, either by strength of faith or that of science. While it is true that neither science nor religion can explain certain things and answer some questions like the existence of consciousness, the human spirit, faith itself etc., it cannot be assumed for sure that any one of them is correct. the answer might even be a common path between the two. For example, one of the statements that you had in your original article, struck me as true…
“I don’t have a conflict with intelligent design versus evolution,” [School Board Member] Sellers said. “The two go together.”
Why can’t this be true? Why couldn’t evolution be the process of design of a higher intelligence? And that higher intelligence does not necessarily have to wear a long white gown and have a flowing white beard and speak with a bass-heavy tone from the heavens with an echoed voice.. What if “God” (or Allah, Krishna, FSM, what-you-have) was actually a set of basic principles of Physics on which the universe ran? Does that possibility make our fellow Pastafarians queasy?
I have been lurking around this website for some time now and I was very impressed by some of the brilliant articles around here. But I believed that Pastafarianism was a religion that supported the search for truth and not one which blindly refuted all other possible explanations of the existence of the universe. There does not need to be just two theories of God vs. No God. There can be other possibilities.
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@The Novice
You are right, outright refusing to consider the concept of a God, of creationism, intelligent design or some form of “guided” evolution because one doesn´t *want* to believe in a god is as unscientific as outright refusing to consider the theory of evolution because one doesn´t accept any thing that contradicts the holy book of one´s religion.
Science is not about how things *should* be or what would be the most “pleasant” reality.
It is simply about looking at the world, observating, constructing theories to explain it and testing them. And the best way to prove, or rather, support a theory is by earnestly trying to disprove it and failing.
Technically, it might be the case that a higher being simply made up the “laws” and “rules” of our universe. ( Personally, I always consider terms like “laws of nature” somehow misleading. They aren´t laws. They simply describe the way things have – as far as we can tell – always happened. But if the universe at some point *doesn´t* behave according to our “laws” we can´t really sue the universe for not adhering to them ).
But even then, the scientific approach is not to assume the existence of a god. But rather looking at the evidence and produce theories to it´s explanation that are as complicated as necessary and as simple as possible.
Science can´t touch the possibility of a higher being designing the universe by giving it certain rules. Science is caught *within* these rules. We can´t really tell *why* gravity exist, we can only describe it. Does it exist because it was necessary for our universe to become what it is now, our is our universe the way we see it now because gravity exists?
In the end, we, as humans, are an inseparable part of the universe. We can´t look at it from the “outside” just as the man in Plato´s cave can not see the “real” objects, only their shadows.
But neither can religions. They just claim they can. If a god interacted with this world, it would be verifiable somehow. That means it could be proven by scientific means. But if this god is content to act not directly but through the “law”s and “rules” of nature he created… than there is no sense in “bothering” with speculations about his existence. All we needed to learn about him – and all we *could* really learn – we could learn by observating the workings of His naturla laws. Just what science is doing.
Did a god design the concept of evolution as a tool to bring forth life and sentient beings?
It doesn´t matter *a single bit* as far as describing how evolution works is concerned.
Just as Newton´s Theory of Gravity is correct in describing how gravity works *regardless of what ( or whose ) origin gravity is*, so Darwin´s Theory of Evolution is the, so far, best way to describe how it came that earth is inhabited by so many and so different forms of life.
A god is simply *unnecessary* for the concept of evolution, as long as it works in line with the laws of nature. Claiming there “had” to be one involved is little more than human arrogance, which cannot deal with the thought that humanity is neither the center nor the purpose of the universe.
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@Keldorn
My personal theory (currently at a nascent stage of analysis) deals with the possibility that the “laws” and “rules” that the world run on ARE God/higher intelligence. I am not talking about mundane laws of gravity or action/reaction which change at different levels of matter. We might be yet to find a universal law, which adjusts, bends in exact proportion, but never breaks. one possibility is the Divine Proportion/Golden Ratio. Science has yet to come up with an explanation for the same. But again, i do not say that when it does, that it disproves the existence of a higher intelligence. The question is, why did 1:1.618 have to be true everywhere? what if the ratio had been 1:2? could science have explained it too? If it could, then science is at a loss to explain why 1:1.618 exists and not 1:2 as the “default” universal ratio. That brings in the higher intelligence argument.
Everybody, please keep in mind that I am not defending a God in the classic sense. I do not believe that a big old man is running the universe or that something is true because it is written in a book considered to be holy (take “Atlas Shrugged” for example…).
My theory is that we might be a very small part of a very large framework of events.
I get disturbed when I see people turn into atheists just because of famines, floods and other unfortunate events happening to undeserving people. That is not a logical reason to disbelieve in the existence of god. No, i am not going to give you crap like “HE gives you problems to make you strong”. My point is, who said that there was a deal that “you pray, i keep you happy” or “be good, get good”? then the relation isn’t religious or spiritual, its business.
And as to not believing in what you don’t see, you know they have these miraculous invisible angels in the heavens which perform magical acts. They were called Infrared rays, UV rays, X-rays, Oxygen, Sperms, Black Holes. What are you talking about when you are “not able to see”? you mean “if i cannot see it with naked eye, microscope, telescope and an infrared/UV light detector, it doesn’t exist.”? I believe that you need to open our mind more.
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@The Novice
Again, science is limited to operate within our universe. It can describe the what and how, but not the why.
Probabilites or improbabilities themselves do not postulate the existence of a guiding force.
Smash a plate on the ground and look at the pieces. The chance for them to lie in that *exact* shape and order is infinitesimally small. If you we´re trying to achive that specific pattern by chance you wouldn´t be able to, even when smashing plates on the floor for your entire life.
And yet there it is.
The chance for our universe to be just the way it is, of course, far, far smaller yet. But *Every* single possible universe capable of bringing forth sentient life would have it´s inhabitants wonder, at some point: “Wow, if the characteristics of our universe were even a tiny bit different… we wouldn´t be here!”
A guided universe is not a necessity for our existence or to explain the way the universe is now.
In fact, instead of giving an answer it only makes things even *more* complicated. Because we now wouldn´t need an explanation for a universe, but for a being capable of *creating* a universe.
Such a being or force would be even more difficult to explain, and even more unlikely than our universe itself.
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I think everyone needs to let go of the thought that there is a reason we are here, to stop asking ‘why’. We are here by accident, and if things went slightly differnet billions of years ago we wouldnt be here at all.
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@ davehead (206)
Can you prove the second sentence of your statement… or is it a result of your system of belief… hence unproven and not scientific. Your assertion is lacking in my opinion.
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So you think being here at the moment hasnt come down to chance at all? I’m guessing your not athiest, and talking about being scientificaly unproven you musnt be part of a religion. Are you confused?
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Matisse painted the nude when a sculpture he was working on shattered.
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I usually don
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Great post, thanks for the info
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