The Ledger reports that the majority of Polk County, Florida, School Board members support teaching Intelligent Design in addition to evolution in public schools.
It’s unclear if they’re prepared to change the definition of science. Some people are concerned that a supernatural theory will not mesh with the study of the natural world.
Board member Kay Fields said last week she wants intelligent design, which is promoted by some Christian groups, taught in science classes in addition to evolution.
“If it ever comes to the board for a vote, I will vote against the teaching of evolution as part of the science curriculum,” Lofton said. “If (evolution) is taught, I would want to balance it with the fact that we may live in a universe created by a supreme being as well.”
The board’s majority opinion is at odds with many in Florida’s scientific community who strongly support the new, more rigorous science standards, and say intelligent design lacks scientific credibility.
Perhaps Florida’s scientific community has not realized the type of genius arguments they’re up against:
“My tendency would be to have both sides shared with students since neither side can be proven,” [School Board Member] Tim Harris said.
“I don’t have a conflict with intelligent design versus evolution,” [School Board Member] Sellers said. “The two go together.”
“It crosses the line with people who are Christians,” [School Board Member] Lofton said. “Evolution is offensive to a lot of people.”
Pastafarians are concerned that the Polk County School Board is endorsing Intelligent Design, but ignoring our theory, even though it is widely endorsed by the scientific community.
I will wager that the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster can produce more academic endorsements for our theory than Intelligent Design proponents can for theirs.
My guess is that the Polk County School Board is just unaware of Pastafarianism. As a public service, I propose that we contact them, and let them know that there are other supernatural theories just as valid as Intelligent Design, primarily ours.
Contact info:
Those in favor of Intelligent Design:
Kay Fields (District 5)
Kay.Fields@polk-fl.net
863-802-5483
Tim Harris (District 7)
Tim.Harris@polk-fl.net
863-808-0005
Margaret Lofton (District 6, Chairman)
Margaret.Lofton@polk-fl.net
863-294-9076
Hazel Sellers (District 3)
Hazel.Sellers@polk-fl.net
863-533-7714
Lori Cunningham (District 2, Vice-Chairman) – undecided
Lori.Cunningham@polk-fl.net
863-512-1656
Those not in favor of Intelligent Design:
Frank O’Reilly (District 1)
Frank.Oreilly@polk-fl.net
863-647-1390
Brenda Reddout (District 4)
Brenda.Reddout@polk-fl.net
863-324-0127
You can use this link to email all 7 School board members.
Please be respectful – remember we are not criticizing their beliefs, merely pointing out that there is another, just as legitimate, theory that should be included into the curriculum. Please leave a comment and tell us about your conversations with the School Board. Thank you!
The Ledger article can be found here.
*update* 12/11/07 – Their local newspaper published a story about our campaign here.
Pinellas County Board of Education,
I applaud your efforts to keep both Intelligent Design (ID) and Evolution in school curriculum. Since ID is not simply a Christian ideal, I can’t wait to be holding signs on your behalf!!!! I must admit that I am not a Christian, but I adamantly fight on behalf of ID being taught in our schools systems! Below is a list of all ID “theories” that should be taught along with your Christian ID theory. Thanks for helping us all live in a better, more ethical and moral world! The Christians have a proven track record of over 2000 years of being nothing but PERFECTLY (Christ like) moral and ethical.
Please refer to the list below so we can start buying books on each ID subject! I will happily be the first to donate on behalf of my religion!
Asatru
Baha’i Faith
Caodaism
Christianity
Damanhur Community
Religious Druidism
Druze (Druse, Muwahhid, Mowahhidoon, Mo’wa’he’doon, Taw’heed Faith)
Eckankar
The Elia’n Gonzalez Religious Movement
Gnosticism
Gypsies
Hinduism
FSM
Goddess Worship (for history)
Ifa
Islam
Judaism
Jainism
Jehovah Wittnesses
Krishna’s
Lukumi
Macumba
Theistic Satanism
Scientology (on earth)
Sikhism
Shinto
The Creativity Movement (formerly the World Church of the Creator)
Unitarian
Vodun
Wiccan
Yizidi
Zorastrianism
I know that Jane Dellucci says that “students should be given the opportunity to view ALL theories on how man evolved”… but we have to start somewhere… right?
I could only put these very few different religions due to the fact that I have limited time, but I think you get the picture of how important it is to get our ID views out to the public. Hopefully you can get private funds donated for the cause since the government will not appropriate funds on this behalf. Perhaps you are all independently wealthy and can support this cause with your own bank accounts? I view you all as modern day pioneers of ID.
Since Polk County, FL has 160 School sites including 65 Elementary Schools, 19 Middle Schools, and 16 High Schools I believe that time is NOT on our side. Since the Polk County school district has over 95,000 students it is imperative that we start the fund raising mission soon! Let me do some math to shorten our time and just get straight to the fundraising.
Here are our variables:
95,000 Students = x
32 (minimum number of ID theory’s proposed) = y
$100.00 (least amount of money for a modern religious textbook) = z
Equation is: (x * y * z = $)
Rough estimate = $304,000,000.00 (Three Hundred and Four Million Dollars).
I’m sure they (Religious Institutions) will give us a discount since it is for a good cause. At least we can try… right!?
Again… this is only the first year’s editions; we can update our books every year because of simple dogmatic changes in our different religions.
Since our current budget is $798,400,000.00 and 82% of that goes to teaching, transporting, and counseling students, 15% of that comes from operating and maintenance, and the remaining 3% goes to central and fiscal services… means we need to do some tremendous fundraising, or cut some fat off the corners.
Since the state funds 63% of the general fund (for now, hopefully they will continue after ID is introduced) comes from the state, we will have to make provisions for more local money because of the possibility of losing state funding. We MUST ACT NOW! This is absolutely the best thing to do!
Since your school system is made up of 53% white, 23% black and 22% Hispanic, we will need to hire Theologist’s that speak multiple languages. This will surely decrease our budget significantly so we will need to make preparations for this also. Since education is the absolute most important thing (ensure rigorous, relevant learning experiences that result in high achievement for our students = current Polk County mission statement) then we must understand that money is no object and act as such.
Below are my three proposed options:
1.) Trim some fat off the current budget by dropping health care, pensions, and instituting all reserve monies into next year’s budget. Also, since our cause is so noble, I’m sure that teachers will gladly take an 80% pay cut in order to have an opportunity to be part of such a movement. This should save us a great deal of money for more books next year!
2.) I say we proportion our entire fiscal budget for next year into hiring new multilingual Theologist’s and buying these new books. We can then let our faith bring the money in for the remainder of the budget. Surely with all of these different faiths being taught the God’s will reward us!
3.) Continue to teach the theory of evolution based on overwhelming observable scientific evidence and forego ID teachings in its entirety.
Personally, I would do option 3.
Just in case… I am contacting the Dover, Pennsylvania School board to help assist you in case this goes to trial. I assure you, they have plenty of experience in this realm. I’m not sure if the members that were on trial are sill on the board, or even in civilized public, but I’m sure they can point us in the correct direction.
Let me know what I can do to help! I remain your humble servant.
I copied my religious Prophet (Bobby Henderson). I can’t speak for my Prophet… but he can probably assist you in your goals, I would trust him entirely and sign him up as a consultant. What could be better than an actual Prophet in the ID realm?
Ramen,
Shawn Pate
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@Iain & MonkeyBoy:
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Science only deals with complexity and order. Science makes no ascertains about origin. However, science can be used to reconcile origin ideas. Hence, ‘The Origin of a Species’ is not science but attempts to use science to reconcile ideas about origin just as Intelligent Design (ID) does the same. It just so happens that ID reconciles with the Bible instead of a human’s ethereal idea of origin. Unfortunately, in order to make science fit an idea about origin, human’s tend to adjust the science instead of letting the science report in truth. A problem in many cosmological views.
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Evolution uses a different science than Intelligent Design uses on numerous points. Some of these points center on the notion of randomness, the definition of life, and fundamental scientific rigors.
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The Evolutionist Genesis profoundly claims that at some point in the past the right mix of inanimate and inert materials somehow came into contact. They speculate by currents moving the components around, by tectonic forces bringing them together, or by the collapse of a super nebula during a violent age somewhere in the universe. Simultaneously, natural forces formed static charges of sufficient strength to ‘spark’ the inert materials into a primordial protoplasmic globule. Overtime this globule morphed through natural selection and random drift forming higher orders of life. This life could have traveled at some point by spatial pan spermia and deposited on the planet Earth. This is to remark that biological life is a phenomenon that is becoming more organized over time and is spread over the universe through the pan spermia mechanism. There is nothing unique about biological life other than to remark it is a galactic weed.
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Ultimately, the Church of Evolution remarks there is no Deity that is active or in control of the universe. The universe and its natural order have no purpose other than to aimless re-organize overtime to some other order. Evolutionists oddly claim that order occurs in contrast to its dependency on the notion of random action. If, by chance, an Evolutionist claims they believe in a Deity, it is one that is disinterested in creation and has no interest in the natural other than to have created it and moved on. Like a creationist, the Evolutionist proselytizes the belief with religious fervor by fighting for and defending his God of NULL.
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Intelligent Design comparatively claims the universe is ordered and randomness does not exist as a natural phenomenon. ID remarks that creation is the outcome of an interested and involved deity. ID views biological life as a combination of a biological embodiment and a spiritual presence – a soul. ID tells us that life was placed on Earth not by pan spermia but by a Deity that desires to walk amongst humans at some point in the future. Like an Evolutionist, the creationist proselytizes the belief with religious fervor by fighting for and defending his God who has given humans a choice. He is a deity who does not force himself upon humans but desires that humans open their eyes and come to him by choice. He is a Deity who confirms his presence in his design sort of like an artist signs his works.
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In the end, you could worship NULL, God of nothing, or you could worship the Judeo/Christian God, God of it all. In general, evolutionists remind me of ‘Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom’. The mesmerized miners below the palace wildly swing arms and chant as a victim’s heart is stolen then burst into flames.
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Response to MrMiami
You’re telling me that Intelligent Design uses science; a science that is proven by its own book? Wow… that would be easy to do. Let me write a book and then prove to you what I wrote was actually written.
I applaud your attempt to sound civilized but… Christians hold these “Temple of Doom” ceremonies every day… all across the world. So don’t act all “Righteous” and act like what you are doing is better than what anybody else is doing. If you were born in the middle east you would be Muslim and you would chant the same story about FSM. The truth is… people like you WANT and NEED to be controlled by other people. So go ahead and remain the slave of one person’s political agenda.
Pulling hearts out??? You might want to do some research on blood sacrifice and religion. Also, don’t you eat the body and drink the blood of Jesus? What’s the difference? And no… it’s not a symbol of the body and blood… Christians actually BELIEVE it IS the body and blood of Christ.
I’ve been an Atheist for a long time and still have not attended an Atheist ceremony. I think you have us confused with other religions such as your own. Do some research and get back to me on that. Just because it’s not Christianity (you do have your own f’d up rituals) doesn’t mean it’s not an ID based religion.
My issue with most Christians (all that I have met) is that they accept what someone else has told them and require no proof at all (faith you call it). Not only this… but Christians fail to do any research on the origin of life, culture, or politics of the time of Jesus. Christians just go to church and listen to the same sermon that was repeated 6 weeks ago. Trust me when I say this… the clergy does not want to change the Status Quo. If you actually LEARNED something… you might find out that religion is a tool used to control people when government fails.
I have done more research regarding Christianity than ALL Christians that I have met. I can hold a more rational conversation with Christians because of WHAT I KNOW… not what I don’t know. Nearly 100% of the time I talk to Christians that have “Their own view” on Christianity (Moderates or Liberals). They do not share the same ideals of the Christian Religion. The problem is… nobody will admit this when they are in their “Fellowship” groups… because it’s easier to lie and be forgiven than it is to tell the truth and be persecuted. Sound familiar?
How many Christians do you know that don’t believe in evolution. I have met maybe 1 or 2 and they don’t want to talk about it. All the others just say “yeah… I’m a Christian but I believe in evolution”… which is not a Christian at all. It’s someone who has taken a moral and ethical philosophy and massaged it into a religion. It makes me sick that these same people go to church for the sport of it.
So nice try; the irony of the entire thing is that you called “faith”… science. The only science in faith is examining the psychological need for Christians to feel:
1.) part of a group
2.) attached to invisible, non tangible, non provable entities
3.) exactly opposite of what the bible teaches (Peaceful, non-violent, tolerable)
I could honestly go on for a long time here… it’s just too interesting to not study.
So please don’t confuse what science and religion are. Religion and science are not even in the same realm. Your argument is no different from me telling you that the book “Where the Wild Things are” actually happened. Hey… I got a book to prove it… and you can’t disprove it. I can say that I have “Faith” that it actually happened…. and you can’t disprove me. Get it?
Science takes observable evidence, does experiments, creates a rule, tries to break that rule, asks other scientist to break the rule, and then it becomes fact. Facts build a hypothesis, several hypothesis’s become a theory. Thus… the theory of evolution.
Religious theory is DIFFERENT. Let me repeat myself, DIFFERENT from scientific theory. Religious theory just means “idea”.
Your best option is to use Science… to prove that your god is real. Except… you really don’t want to work that hard… do you? That seems to be the Christian mantra.
Truth is… it’s easier to be a Christian than an Atheist due to the fact that we are still educating ourselves… Christians have already given up.
Do us all a favor… and prove us Pastafarians wrong. I dare you… or do you not want to work that hard??? It’s just eternity… right?
Shawn Pate
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Mr. Miami:::
Those who support evolution only do so because it is the main scientific theory out there that explains the world, IT IS NOT A RELIGION!!!
As a part of science, if someone disproves evolution by some means, then science would drop it and go with whatever the new one is. So, if a creationist could prove that evolution can’t happen without bible quotes or evidence that cannot be counted by anyone, I would not think of evolution as the way life occurs right now.
Unfortunatly, and I’m sure you agree, the only evidence out there that creationists bring up are bible quotes. And any evidence they get against it was an error that existed in Charles Darwin’s “The Origin of Species”, not realizing that they’re criticizing data that is 150 YEARS OLD instead of dealing with the more recent observations and theories.
Oh, and epistomology. That is just the study of knowledge based on what we believe and what is true (or something like that). I don’t see how you confuse what seems to be psychology with the origins of life, so I’ll get rid of your confusion. Science is only about trying to get as close to the truth as we can (which is why I could give up evolution if you can dissprove it) realizing that we will never be 100% right. epistomology, from what I see, takes beliefs into account: it says that knowledge comes from things that you believe that ARE TRUE! but, I ask, how do you determine what is probably true? With science, and what does science require? evidence, oberservation and experimentation. and what does the evidence observations and experimentation say about the orgin of life? That evolution, as far as scientific evidence goes, is our best guess so far until someone disproves it beyond a REASONABLE doubt.
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@Caveat Lector:
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EVOLUTION IS A RELIGION! It is a shame that you are so polarized in your thoughts that you cannot see that. First, whenever origin is discussed it has nothing to science. Science deals with complexity and order. Hence, the ‘Origin of a Species’ is a cosmological revelation that attempts to use science in order to validate that BELIEF. This is the exact same thing that Intelligent Design, ID, proponents do. ID attempts to reconcile science with the revelation of the Bible.
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Part of the problem is that the science Evolution uses and the science ID uses are not entirely the same science. The underpinnings of the sciences is fundamentally different in the treatment of randomness vs order, the definition of life, and other scientific rigors. In short, the ‘good’ ideas are influencing the science rather than the science influencing the ‘good’ ideas.
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For example, evolution defines life as a set of chemical processes and a collection of material particles that randomly assembled, animated, and evolved to form creatures and plants. ID defines life as a biological embodiment that is host to a spirit or soul of a animal or human. The soul is the essence of each animal or individual. Plants are not considered as ‘life’ under ID although they possess the same biological qualities. Plants do not possess a spirit or soul.
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The evangelical evolutionist are akin to street corner Bible thumpers. These evolutionary nuts shout down anyone and everyone with thier radicalized belief. They prosyletize by insisting on it being in schools that are today more like a Madrassah than the freest expansion of the human mind. They are literal adherents to ashes-to-ashes and dust-to-dust. Imagine that, the evangelical evolutionist believe that you have more in common with a dust speck than a future with an eternal God.
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There is no science to evolution. There is only a ‘good’ idea and a psuedo-science to make it appear right.
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Once again, I return to ‘Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom’. Evolution converts are like the mesmerized miners below the palace wildly swing arms and chant as a victim’s heart is stolen then burst into flames before thier God, NULL. Halee Kaaa Haleee Kaaa!
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@Caveat Lector:
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Creationist only cite Bible verses. ID is not creationism. ID proponents have an alternative explanation in which science is reconciled with the Bible regarding creation.
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Quantum physics indicates that the phyisical Universe deconstructs to a quantized or discrete state. This state is digital in nature and is described by information theory leading to quantum computing theories. These theories indicate that the universe is an outcome of a irreversible computational algorythm and everything physical is computationally executed. Hence, the big bang equates to the throwing of a arcing switch and the program begins to execute. Furthermore, quantum physics indicates that the entire physical universe ceases to exist and becomes waveforms (string theory) when those discrete chunks of matter are cut in half the last time.
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ID proponents reconcile this scientific finding with what the Bible says. In Genesis 1:3 God spoke the universe into existence or communicated information. This is an indication of an information orientation. Hebrews 11:3 says the universe is made of that we cannot touch. Information is intangible. The Bible is a message, God is the word, and the word is the light. We know that information can be encoded into light waves. God may have very well coded or made the universe in 7 days. The codes execution has been longer. There is for more to this than just one or two versus but I think get the gist.
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This is also consistent with the notion that DNA is a pattern makers template. Information is no only stored in the DNA but also acts on the DNA and includes timing, sequencing, and duration of firing genes. DNA has been frequently described like a computer program. The pattern maker could be operating the template within the constructs of the code. Could there be truth to a Bible Code?
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@Shawn Pate
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An atheist has a God despite thier vocal opposition to the notion. Atheist have defensive points to justify their belief and write books like Richard Dawkins does. The God of an atheist is a NULL whether you like it and believe it or not. You have a God and you willingfully defend it.
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I have studied Islam and Christianity both. They are doctrinally diametrically opposites on every point they make. Evolution actually dove tails nicely into Islam since they believe that Christians and Jewish comes from monkeys and chickens. Actually, I think that verse is more of an insult than a factual statement. Nonetheless, you’ll find Muslims are attracted to Evolution more so than Christians.
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Understandings in the Judeo/Christian doctrine are stratified. There is a lay, theological, and scholarly interpretation. Each intrepretation stratification has liberal and conservative variants. The lay interpretation is almost always incorrect. The Scholarly interpretations are focused on the academics of science, history, psychology, culture, etc… in relation to the scriptures. The Theological interpretations take the scholarly understandings and apply them to the practical application of living life and answering the philosophical questions such as who am I, why am I here, and what happens after I die?
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Your diatribe about faith is often reflected by many people. I also see the frustration people have with the protestant churchs today. The protestant churchs almost solely focus on newcomers and rarely develop the faith in maturing Christians. Hence, many are left to thier own devices which can be dangerous since there is a very deliberate method of learning the doctrine.
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Compounding the problem is the fact that people of any faith are at different stations of maturity in the faith. Some go on and mature into an accurate understanding and application of the faith. Others stagnant and never move forward. Protestant Christian doctrine remarks that every Christian is a leader in the faith and is responsible for correctly learning the faith once a member. Unfortunately, many Christians view the faith incorrectly through a worldly lense rather than from a supernatural lense or they develop their understanding using lay interpretations that are incorrect based on scriptural doctrine. Coincidentally, less than 2% of doctrinal Christianity is in dispute amongst the theologians, scholars, and even the fragmented Christian religions. The disputed doctrine has no bearing on the message or the critical principles in the theology.
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Muslims are somewhat different than the Christians. There is one major rift in Islam between Sunni and Shia’s and both are stratified but in different ways than Christians. They tend to be stratified by thier practice rather than understanding. There are non-practicing Jihadist, Moderate Jihadist, and Fundamental Jihadist. The Moderates are generally broken into Spiritual Jihadist, Supporting Jihadist, and Contributing Jihadist. Fundamental Jihadist are the ones that take it to the most overt actions. Interestingly, while the rift is principally over who can be an Imam, they both appeal to the same Islamic philosophers such as Mawdudi.
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In the end, all humans appeal to a kind of God in one form or another regardless of their acknowledgement of that God. The challenge that all humans are confronted with is properly determining which is the true God. It is a life journey and has implications beyond life. It is more important to learn how to learn and methods to learning than it is to be told something. Einstein once remarked that knowledge and discovery are not possible unless one can first imagine. Einstein came to understand the theory of relativity by imagining that he was a photon of light. Can you imagine yourself outside the universe looking back? Can you imagine yourself looking through the eyes of another? Can you image stream and conduct combinatory play in the mind’s eye?
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MrMiami:
Although I tried to have a reasonable conversation with you, it appears that whoever taught you religion attended the “David Koresh” school of “how to get others to drink the cool aid”. I applaud his manipulation tactics!!!! I’m sure you have given him a great deal of money by now. After all… God does need your money.
I do like how you conveniently overlooked my post. Is it that you forgot already? Or does your faith lead you to believe that it does not actually exist?
Let’s do a simple experiment to show you the difference between a Religious person’s faith, and a scientists “belief” as you call it.
Let’s take 2 people, say… you… and I.
Now let’s start a bonfire in the middle of a field and stand next to it.
I, as a scientist, deduce that IF I were to jump into the bonfire and lay down… I would burn to death. This is not a belief… this is what would happen based on laws and hypothesis that science has concluded.
So let’s take your… faith… and have you do the same thing. Do you believe that you would not burn? What does your faith have to do with what is tangible in our realm of reality? Is this the same reason Christians die every year after being bit from the rattlesnake that god was supposed to protect them from while dancing with at church?
So why don’t you jump in the fire? Is it your god that taught you not to lie in a bonfire… or is it science? (insert Jeopardy music here).
So here is a TANGIBLE difference between science, belief, proof, and faith.
You don’t have the BELIEF that your FAITH will protect you because of what SCIENCE has PROVEN.
Is this a little more clear for you? If not… try out this experiment and see what happens. I will personally bow down and kiss your feet, then declare my love for the Christian god if it does not go the way science has PROVEN to happen. If you are protected by your Christian god then I will become a born again Christian.
I know what your thinking… there is a difference between faith and crazy… I’m telling you that you are walking a very thin line. This is the reason for FSM in the first place. It is derived to illustrate the shortcomings of religions based on “beliefs” with no evidence.
Christians and ID people such as yourself are always pointing their finger at science and asking us to PROVE things. Well I am going to go outside of my typical scientist role and ask you to do something… PROVE your god exists.
And please don’t use the sub-seventy IQ control tactic of asking me how to explain how a tree exists without god… for I can explain that. Please… don’t mention irreducible complexity to me… this is also an ID purveyors great misfortune… it simply makes you all look like you have done exactly NO research. Please don’t misuse scientist’s quote to defend your issues… it’s been played out.
Your move…
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MrMiama.
Interestingly enough, evolution has a significant amount of scientific proof. ID doesn’t. And you do know that evolution isnt at all random? Its differencial survival (I think that is the right term, someone with some sense, ie. not MrMiama, correct me if I’m wrong.) It takes thousands of changes for an entire species to evolve, it isn’t just an instant thing. Why am i even going to the trouble of thinking of a way to explain this to you? You seem pretty stuck in your beliefs. You may want to take a lesson from an Agnostic. When someone proves that your theory isn’t true, as many have with ID, then you give your theory up and move on to the proven one.
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How a God who created the universe NOT be part of the science that he created?
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Well okay, i just typed a wonnderfully eloquent few paragraphs here and didn’t fill out my email, so it disappeared, now i’ll restart from scratch but it won’t be as good. God Damn it.
Mr. Miami said “evolutions [sic] intended message is that there is no God”. I would like to point out that this is a presumtuous statement to say the least. First and foremost Evolution is not your roommate Matt, the Atheist. As such it can not be personified in such a way as to INTEND any messages. Evolution is a field of study, it will never intentionally say “there is no God” nor will it ever intentionally say “I had sex on your bed, don’t use your pillow” or “Sorry, i spilled beer on you keyboard”
The very first proponents of intelligent design were Geneticists and evoluntionary scientists seeking an explanation for why DNA and life in general are so complex. Seeking explanations for why we, as intelligent beings, have such a difficult time reproducing life in a laboratory, not to mention why it hasn’t randomly been produced on the planet on a regular basis.
The very concept of intelligent design as a valid scientific plausibility hinges on the idea that evolution as a result of genetic variation and adaptation is in fact proven. If you do not accept evolution as fact, ID has no valid talking points, and therefor, no scientific justification.
This is what strikes me as frustrating; the people who often are proponents of Intelligent Design are also often attempting to kill Evolutionary education, yet, Inelligent Design is BASED on the science of evolution. The very foundation of ID is evolution. If you’ll forgive my poor analogy, these people are trying to build a house on sand.
That said I would like to again point out that Evolution does not make any claims that there being no God. Many proponents of evolution make that claim, but evolution itself is simpky a field of scientific study, and as such it explores and attempts to understand the natural universe which FSM created. Science does not exclude the existence of a creator, even while many scientists may.
Suck It.
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@Shawn Pate
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Your move? LOL. I have an interesting piece on how to have an intellectual conversation. Perhaps you should review it. I am not sure what you mean by I overlooked your post? You’ll need to explain what you feel I overlooked.
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Is your Bon Fire symbolic of the lake of fire or the test of faith in the Bible? Those occur outside the natural
realm. Worldly science does not apply during the condemnation of man or the judgement of one’s strength of faith.
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In the natural realm, the science that the Judeo/Christian God created applies. Of course, fire burns and destroys. In fact, the Judeo/Christian God says that he will destroy all of creation in the end by fire. I would not want to be Left Behind. During the endtimes scenario there is direct intervention by God in this world and people are said to withstand the effects of natural fire.
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Biblical meaning of faith and your meaning of faith are not the same. The Biblical meaning of faith is ‘to place trust
in’. The modern meaning of faith and your meaning of faith is to believe in something without cause. They are very
different. Christian’s view all of creation as a result of a participating God. His ‘fingerprints’ are all over
creation. Learning about the Judeo/Christian God is like preening. He enjoys being discovered and wrestling with
humans. One way to discover his existence is to reconcile creation with his message from beyond this universe.
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There are really only three points of trust. 1. God is who he says he is. 2. The Bible is his infallible message. 3.
Jesus Christ is who he said he is. All else falls into place using history, science, philosophy, archeology, etc… to reconcile what is alleged in the Bible.
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The problem is that you confound science with cosmology, theology, and philosophy. Science only deals with complexity
and order. Origin has nothing to do with science. ‘The origin of a Species’ is not science but attempts to use a
version of science to justify origin concerns it propagates. Science should never be different based of some idea. It
should be rock solid. But the ’science of evolution’ is not rock solid and makes some fundamental assumptions that are
not correct. For example there are assumptions that are not true,
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1. Randomness is a naturalistic phenomenon
2. Evolutionary life is solely biological and does not need to account for spirit
3. Naturalistic information does not need to be addressed
4. Durable & repeatable evolutionary phenomenon can be observed only once
5. Spirited Biological life can be sparked into existence from inert materials
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Evolution is frequently buried in obfuscation; It is so slow no one can see it; It so complicated that it is difficult
to understand; There is no cause and effect predictability its just random; etc…
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Wow this sounds like science – not!
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MrMiami,
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I would like to address your first post before the second.
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YOU SAID: How a God who created the universe NOT be part of the science that he created?
—- EXACTLY! Your god offers no explanations for scientific theory but you insert your god into the equation based on information accessed from science. Don’t confuse vague remarks of the prophets to conclude to a result after science has discovered it. You call this creation theory… but you have no theory without proof. You call your proof faith; there is no theory of faith.
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Second Post***********************
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Your move… simply means that you are accusing Science of not being able to prove things… but we can. It’s your inability to review these truths… yes, I said truths. The bonfire was not a symbol of any biblical tale; just as I would have not referenced George Luca’s “Star Wars” as an example of the difference between sciences in faith.
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You need to remember something MrMiami, it is not WE who have to prove anything to you. We have the proof, we have the timelines, we have the history, we have the culture, and we have the FACTS. In the end, it is YOU who came here to preach to us. But I have not seen anything worth thinking about. You have a book that contains no truths that can be verified in any way. The difference between science and religion is that science builds up facts to create a hypothesis to reach a conclusion. Your religious organizations find a conclusion, and then look for the “evidence” to back it up.
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Let’s address your supposed scientific errors and let me explain them to you.
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1. Randomness is a naturalistic phenomenon
—- Science talks about mutations, this is TRUE! Just because science can not tell you where, when, and why a species mutates, does not mean it does not happen. We assume this will happen because it will. Just like you assume that if you jump in fire that you will be burned.
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2. Evolutionary life is solely biological and does not need to account for spirit
—- Science has found nothing to believe that there is a “spirit”. Please give us some type of scientific proof, and I assure you… the scientific community will arrange for the change. But since you can not give proof, please assume that science will not account for this. The same way your religious organizations do not change the bible to reflect evolution. The main difference is that when science finds proof it will change the views of almost everybody in the community. The bible is infallible and if an error is found then the fundamental idea of truth is evolved into something more ambiguous. The community say “I’m sorry… we made a “TRANLATION” mistake… what it really means is… (insert religious board to make something completely unclear… thus irrefutable). “…that depends on what the meaning of is… is”. – Clinton
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3. Naturalistic information does not need to be addressed
—- Anything that does not have truths (proof) behind it to enforce a law… will not be addressed. This is science. Take it or leave it, science (one again) is based on provable laws. Religion bases itself on the assumption that people will believe anything they are told. —- harsh… but very true.
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4. Durable & repeatable evolutionary phenomenon can be observed only once
—- How can something repeatable occur only once? You may want to reword this.
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5. Spirited Biological life can be sparked into existence from inert materials
—-Once again, give me proof of a spirit and we can talk.
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Darwin is not the PROOF of evolution. Darwin simply started the scientific movement. The 150 years of scientific labor is what makes up the “theory of evolution”. Darwin died a very long time ago.
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One thing you are saying is that Science is too big for you to wrap your head around, therefore you find it hard to understand and even more difficult to find truths that dispute ID. Science says that mutation is random but it is a fact that it exists and happens. I’m sure you believe in lightning… science can tell you where lighting will happen, but not when. This does not mean that the Meteorology was created by god and therefore too hard to understand. It’s simply random. Maybe this would help you understand.
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You have still failed to give me any proof on the existence of any ID proposed god. This is the only question I am really interested in getting answered. All the other stuff is just an attempt to help you answer your questions. I love to discuss religion. Your interesting because it seems your IQ is somewhere above 120. I don’t understand how anybody who is intelligent cannot see the obvious flaws in religion regarding dogma and how religion has been used throughout history as a tool for political control.
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Asking you to prove the existance of god is a loaded question. Please explain to me then why YOU believe that there is a god somewhere that created the universe. After that, please explain the following:
1.) Why does god need to be praised?
2.) Does Jesus Christ need to be your personal savior in order to get into heaven?
3.) Why does god need man to carry out killing others in his name.
4.) Why does god need man to enforce rules?
5.) Why does god need man?
6.) Why did an omnipotent god change the rules?
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I have many, many more questions… but these will do the job just fine for now.
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I’m not a sharp person by nature… I’m pretty open-minded and love an educated discussion. There does, however, need to be some sort of truth to the story. Please don’t talk in circles like the others… give me a reason to think. Please take into account that I have logical discussion with ID purveyors on a daily basis and I am just sick of people that use faith as a reason to believe. I don’t care if others use faith to believe themselves… but if you want to make me see the light… I need proof.
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I really don’t understand why they are allowed to make this decision at all. Someone needs to define what the first amendment means when it says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. Doesn’t this mean that we aren’t allowed to have anything to do with religion in a public (i.e. government owned) facility? In fact, why does someone open each day of congress with a prayer? Isn’t that right on the line? I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe but when our children are subjected to those beliefs someone needs to step in and have a word with them. State mandated religious teachings is what many of our founding fathers, and their ancestors, were trying to get away from when moving to America. Why are we trying to bring those things back? Furthermore, can anyone produce any scientific evidence that supports intelligent design? I’ve seen a lot of Bible verses that support it but when was the last time the Bible was held up as a scientific standard?
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@Shawn Pate:
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In your post, you made reference to several disciplines and approaches; science, theology, and religion. Science deals with complexity and order and establishes test for certainty. Theology is the rational and systematic study of a deity and on the nature of human reality. Religion is the practice of a theological doctrine.
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Obviously, you have assumed an ‘us against them’ posture. In short, you have chosen sides. Perhaps you should think about the side you have chosen. Being on the losing side is not a good idea. I have seen this before, either you are for us or against us; Romans 8:31.
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I find your remark ‘We do not have anything to ‘prove’ curious. You have all this ‘proof’ to ‘prove’ something. So in truth you do have something to prove and it sure sounds like you are preaching to me. Your worldview is one that you emerged from inert materials that underwent a Frankenstein animation processes eons ago. You are nothing more than a bunch of biological and natural processes that become worn out and return to dust from whence you came.
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Randomness does not exist. That is the point behind Chaos Science. This science, that you obviously lack skill in, states that the vast majority of the universe is ordered and indeterminate. James Gleick wrote about
this in his Book, ‘Chaos, Making a New Science’. The entire Evolution argument is built on the notion that the naturalistic phenomenon of ‘random’ action acts through natural selection, genetic drift, and mutation and adaptation resulting in transpecies speciation. When the science of chaos states it is impossible for randomness to exist. It is almost laughable at your lack of technical skill and understanding. You obviously put faith in Evolution and its contrived evidence.
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Accounting for the spirit is not difficult. Look at your spirited response. It is just an empirical observation I made. Where did your anger, despise, and aggressiveness come from? There seems to be a science to psychology. How effective is the science of psychology at explaining your conduct and resolving your life issues? There are attempts under Evolution made to explain consciousness with the quantum brain. Your conscience is nothing more than the collapse of an unstable protein tubule that forms a stream of consciousness. That does not explain much about you and your morale conduct. You must agree that morale conduct exists as you possess a sense of right and wrong. Please explain this to me. What is the science of this? There are books on the science of Good and Evil.
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Naturalistic information does exists. For one it is found in your DNA. Your DNA has information stored in it and has information acting on it. Where did this come from? Evolution states that DNA is a blueprint for life and there is information found in a blueprint. Information science indicates that a bit has heat content and that information and thermodynamics are one and the same. Once again you have demonstrated a lack of scientific understanding. I am getting the sense that you really do not know what you are talking about.
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Science rigor states that naturalistic principles withstand the test of time and consistently operate anywhere in the universe. However, only one evolutionary thread line is running building the current tree of life which is not in line with evolution. If all life came from a primordial globule then why is the microbe kingdom apart from the plant and animal kingdoms in the tree of life. It seems to me that the microbe branch should be above the rest of the tree. Why are there not other thread lines running randomly? Additionally, why have soup kitchen efforts to spark the building blocks of life always produced the proteins and amino acids in an environment hostile to carbon based life? I don’t see the ‘proof’ that carbon based life sparked into existence. Please provide this scientific proof or is this another point of faith in your evolutionary cosmological model?
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I just watched a several specials on Darwin. Everyone of the specials focused on Darwin’s rejection of faith and daring alternative to faith. There was nothing in the realm of science (complexity and order) discussed? Instead he took walks and listened to his wife. That makes everyone married a genius. This sent the signal to me that Darwin was not looking at science but for a cosmological alternative. He even called his revelation “The Origin of a Species”.
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I’ll address your God questions after you address your lack of scientific understanding. I need to see your proof of evolution first. Also please explain the innumerable hoaxes perpetrated to manufacture evidence in support of Evolution.
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After you have addressed these points I’ll address the doctrinal issues of the Judeo/Christian faith.
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@ mnky9800n
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Q1: Someone needs to define what the first amendment means when it says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.
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A1: The US forefathers studied morale and ethical systems when designing the United States Government. They agreed among themselves that the system most friendliest to governance was the Judeo/Christian Bible.
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“The Christian Religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind” Thomas Jefferson March 23, 1801.
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“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissolvable bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity”, John Quincy Adams
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The US Bill Of Rights was ratified by Congress in 1791 but not without a hot debate by the forefathers. George Mason, an Episcopalian, strongly influenced by the Bill of Rights amendments. They built the US Bill of Rights directly from the 10 commandments. The first four commandments are God’s rights that include his right to his people and self-definition. Therefore, governments cannot interfere with God’s rights as they are sub-servant to God. Thomas Jefferson Declared, ” …To secure these rights, governments are instituted among men.”
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Furthermore, there are two Supreme court rulings that are in contradiction. The 1892 ruling “The United States vs The Trinity Church” in which there is an opinion written that the United States is a Christian Nation and these are a religious people. The justice provided a 400 year history of veritable evidence for his opinion. The later ruling of “Everson v. Board of Education” in 1947 which is separation of Church and State was based on a single letter between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist. You’ll need to decide which has the greater credibility.
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In short, the Forefathers original intent was not to force God upon men as God does not force himself upon men. So who are men to try? They were convinced that the Christian religion was the ideal framework for governance.
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Q2: Can anyone produce any scientific evidence that supports intelligent design? I’ve seen a lot of Bible verses that support it but when was the last time the Bible was held up as a scientific standard?
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A2: The Bible is not a science but science can be used to validate and authenticate the Bible. This takes not only an understanding of the Bible but also an understanding of Science. It can be a quite lengthy study. Unfortunately, there is not a stable model for Intelligent Design as both Secular and Christian influences are at work on it. I’ll demonstrate in another post how the process is conducted.
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@ mnky9800n
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In the Judeo/Christian doctrine the view is that God created the universe and the science within the universe. The doctrine further expresses that God is active participant in the universe. It is a self-truth he professes and is only understood by believers. In fact, all Gods profess self-truths and these self-truths are only important to those in the community of faith.
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There is a way for someone outside the community of faith to use science to reconcile what any God says and attempt to validate truth in what that God remarks. That is to conduct a scientific experiment or investigation into the order behind a complex object that is discovered. Once the scientific investigation is concluded and the order is understood then take what is now known and reconcile with a God’s remarks that are in his scriptural text and as doctrinally understood. If there is a match or congruence that has contextual relevance then you have made another discovery.
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For example, Quantum Physics has discovered particles can be smashed in a particle accelerator to a point that matter becomes quantized or discrete. This occurs in the Planckian Realm. At that next instance when these discrete chucks of matter are to be smashed one last time they instead disappear entirely. In fact, matter ceases to exist. What remains are waveforms, light waves. Particle physics then models the light waves and calls them strings which vibrate harmonically. Hence, string theory emerges which can be dimensionalized up to four dimensions; X, Y, Z and time coordinates. It is thought that these strings (light waves) come together in a process, yet to be explored, called ‘compactness’ to form a particle again. Hence, we arrive at the wave-particle theory of light. This activity in the Planckian is not random but instead probabilistic outcomes. In the end, discovery in quantum physics tells human beings that the fundamental state of the physical universe is based on light that comes together to form matter even though we do not have a complete understanding of the processes involved.
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Then one of these Christian scholars comes along and understands this discovery in Quantum Physics and rubs his brow. He then opens up the Bible and reads in Genesis 1:3, “God said, ‘let there be light and there was light.’” God began building the universe in the form of light. In this scholar’s mind there is a corroboration between scientific discovery and something that was mysteriously written nearly 4000 years ago before particle accelerators were on the planet. This scholar then thinks that is interesting but needs something more. So he turns to Herbrews 11:3 where is reads that the universe was made at God’s command and of things not visible. He then realizes that not all light is in the visible spectrum and that these particles that form from light are only 10 to the minus 35th meter in size. Wow, in this scholar’s mind that is a second corroboration made by science of something written long before this scientific discovery was possible.
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This is a basic example of how scientific discovery corroborates what was written in the Bible. I only skimmed the surface lightly. The same kind of validation and authentication occurs using other sciences such as Archeology, crytpology, and information sciences. The studies become very in depth relating science and mathematics to the Bible. Over time evidence and corroboration begin to mount and it statistically becomes an impossibility that the the Bible is not what it says it is. One truly needs an in depth understanding of mathematics and science to really dig into these topics I have breezed through. One has to be willing to study the Bible too. A high school, vocational school, community college, or Sunday school education does not buy one much insight.
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It takes personal effort and willingness to learn. Leonardo Da Vinci was a master at this using his Da Vincian principles such as a willingness to embrace the impossible or to throw everything up in smoke in order to look at things from a different perspective. Einstein would use image streaming and combinatory play in his minds eye. If you are to learn anything real you’ll need to act like one of the greats.
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Just considering that both ideas of creation of the world go back in time, one a lot more so then the other, they both are out-side the realm of science and that they both require faith of some type to believe. However, science can help point us in one direction or another by observable and testable happenings.
The fact that organisms that fall significantly short of how they naturally are supposed to be due to mutations or other imparments means they will soon die off seems to support that you have to have an amazingly excellent design to beginn with, other wise the organism dies out before it can pass on much if anything, according to the natural selection theory. This would seem to point more towards a Creator who got it right the first time and anything that strays to far from the original recipe fails at continueing it’s legacy. Organisms, according to the highly revered natuaral selection theory, don’t have the forgiveness of nature to get enough of a chance to fail and try again, fail and try again. If an organism fails in the bid for survival of it’s kind, it goes extinct and that’s that.
I know some people say adaptations are a sign of evolution, a short-term version of macro-evolution that should just be accepted as fact. Even with adaptaion, there are already the things needed present to make it work. A rabbit developes longer ears and shorter fur in a hot enviroment rather than a shorter earred, longer furred rabbit in a colder enviroment is still a rabbit. I’ve heard that people who don’t get enough to eat will grow longer than usual body hair in a relatively short time in the bodies attemt to stay warm. That’s an amazing thing that doesn’t prove evolution, it proves the amazing capabilities our bodies come pre-made with and that points towards a creative designer who knew what we would need.
Entropy, the breaking down and dis-order of things left to themselves, is a scientific fact that is a big argument against evolution. They rely almost entirely on the belief that if something, which has to somehow be there in the first place, is given enough time to itself and conditions that ware away at it, which is what causes entropy, some how creates and makes things falty somehow work.
Just looking at natural selection, the organisms that best exemplify a model of the thing best suited to live in a certain place are the ones that survive and carry on. They best exemplify the best model for a function in an enviroment. They continue a design, not create new ones!
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@paul mahoney:
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I agree that Evolution and Intelligent Design are both outside the realm of science. The schools need to do several things. First, they need to hire competent teachers and get away from the porn star and leftist guerilla teachers that seem to be the norm today. The leftist guerilla teachers put up political posters in the classroom and somehow use math to teach leftist ideologies. The porn star teachers have the porn star tattoos often located on the ankle, back of the neck, belly, or the small of the back to brand themselves ensuring payment for services. It seems they are getting it on with the students too. Competent teachers, on the otherhand, are educated in their subject matter which is not a teaching degree and are able to present multiple viewpoints without bias. Second, The cirriculum needs to split science apart from philosophy, cosmology, and theology. At a minimum, two course should be taught; science and a philosophy, cosmology, and theology comparative course.
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The comparative course should not be like my Democracy class in high school which turned out to be a course on why one party was always right and the other party was always wrong. That turned out to be one of the most difficult courses for my teachers who ever taught me. Why is planned parent hood only in poor minority neighborhoods if it is so good everyone? Why is the the economy consistently down whenever the balance of power in government is to one side? These were the type questions I was hitting my teachers with and they often sent me out of the class. Great teaching skills? The comparative course should present all sides without a bias. It should include respresentatives from each side teaching and evaluating thier piece of the coursework.
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The inability of the school boards to develop meaningful non-bias education gives rises to why people are home schooling and the voucher system. The immature response of the public schools and the teacher associations is to fight these and lobby for legislation to prevent it. This could give grounds for a wide spread uprising and underground schools that unteach and reteach the young. This has happened before. During the Cold War in Soviet States old Christian women taught in thier homes both religion and general education despite the Soviet Governments efforts to undermine Christianity and reteach the sciences, history, etc… that was inline with their political doctrines. The Soviet government lost that battle.
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I agree that mutation and adaption are known scientific phenomenon. However, that does not mean that they cause transpecies mutations over time. The breeding of dogs has not created a new species but instead created a lot of variation in that species. The evolutionists are so stressed to make thier belief seem valid that they call mutation and adaption horizontal evolution. Vertical evolution refers to transpecies mutation. The Evolutionist then obfuscate the issue by dropping horizontal and just say Evolution confusing the known with the unknown in order to make thier strange point. I would characterize this as an information warfare tactic and psyops on the Evolutionist part. If they had a valid argument this would not be necessary.
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In the end, our schools need to rethink their teaching cirriculum and the materials they are teaching if they desire to preserve truth and knowledge. There needs to be some sort of certainty of knowledge index that is a ‘audit’ of the creditability of knowledge. This is possible but the brainpower in American society is dimming. I think the bulb has become a faint glow. How does one attain better precision than the best precision he has? There is an answer to that as we have done it once.
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I agree the design, not evolution, is a ongoing process.
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based on id theory, who designed the designer?
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Dear Mr Miami…
What makes your Christian God superior to any other God?
Religion is blindsided by its own obsession with stamping is authority on all aspects of life.
Science moves with evidence. If scientific evidence proved your God’s existence, you would then accept all scientific tennets.
And for that matter, I would believe in God as a scientific priniciple.
Until then, the most logical system is that of evolution and adaption of species in the survival of the fittest.
Peace out
Si
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Me, I’m not a Christian, I’m Jewish. And I really, really wish that you idiot gentiles would stop trying to interpret my book. You guys stink at it.
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Hmm… I guess the only part about ID I don’t get is, why would a Creator create a world and encourage life and also create a world that hides all marks of and ID?
I guess using the bible as a guide, with the comparison of Quantum Mechanics and the third verse of the bible is as useful as useful as comparing the death of Henry II with Century 1, Quatrain 35 of Nostradamus. In hindsight you can infer any hidden meaning.
I am just curious as to what ID predicts? The theory of Evolution makes observations, and predictions. ID only observation.
You seem to know your stuff MrMiami, I am hoping that you could help me with these little hurtles.
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As a theologian who specializes in Biblical translation, I can tell you that the scholarly evidence compiled thus far does nothing to provide evidence for the “truth” of claims within the “scripture”, whether it is the Hebrew Scriptures or the “New Testament”. In fact, historical and archeological evidence contradict the claims of authorship made within the Bible, and translational errors persist and are the foundation of major Christian doctrines being propogated today. In the end, there is no “proof” or solid factual basis for faith. Consqeuntly, if one has faith in the creation of the world by a deity, the truth of that creation lies only within the mind and emotions of the believer.
All the same, having a dual degree in biology, I can say that there are plenty of issues with the supposedly proven theory of evolution. To assume that anything in science is actually proven is just bad science! There is nothing in science that can ever be considered to be a finality. The theory of evolution has issues, but at the moment, it’s the best one that we have. That doesn’t mean it’s true any more than any other religion’s creation story is true.
As for “separation of church and state”, to be really nerdy, I will tell you guys that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, who were the originators of the concept, did not actually intend for religion to be excluded from the public arena. Their intent was to ensure that people could publicly practice whatever religion they wanted, and to make sure that the government didn’t exclude Deists, Jews and minority Christian groups from political office.
Due to the modern presence of so many various religions, it is absolutely ridiculous for these people in Florida to think it’s practical to give fair voice to religious views in a public school. If they are going to teach “Intelligent Design”, which is blantantly Christian creationism, then they should give fair voice to the other religious creation stories as well. I’m sure that they aren’t remotely willing to do that. Perhaps Christian parents should take the responsibility for child-rearing seriously, as their Bible suggests they should, and teach them about creation at home.
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My belief in god depends on the definition of “god”. If god is merely something that made us, then I dont have a problem with the existence of a “god”. Something caused the universe to exist. If the world is the product of “chance”, then I can call “chance” my maker, or god. I have a problem with how people picture god and expect god to behave in a certain way, or treating “god” like a being that can feel, see and hear. So if god was defined as an all-powerful, all-good creator, then i dont belive in a god.
I fail to understand this argument. Evolution doesnt disprove (or prove) god. Its just a way life has developed. God could have caused evolution. Its could be his intelligent design that the fittest survive. Saying that god made us is more an answer to the question:”who made us?” than “how did we come aboutt?”
The theory of evolution has holes in it, but its still a pretty good guess at how we came about, compared to just popping into existence at gods will.
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@cina murtad
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In intelligent Design the designer is acknowledged by both Christian’s and secularist. The Secularists such as Physicists Paul Davis acknowledge that the evidence for design is overwhelming and attribute the design to ‘a designer’. The Christians reconcile the evidence of design found in science with the scriptures claiming that the identity of the designer is the Judeo/Christian God. So the Chrsitians just take the understanding a bit farther than the secularist who acknowledge the evidence of design. Granted not all secularists understand the design notion and many think it is simply a ‘christian’ thing.
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@Simon
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I think you made a very Christian point here. You are really arrogant and prideful to think that a God is a possession of a human. If I had a God, he is not mine. I would be his. I think that is the point of a God.
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@Bonzo
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There are a lot of Christians tired of the Jewish not getting the message.
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@Jason
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You asked, “Why would a Creator create a world and encourage life and also create a world that hides all marks of and ID?”
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In the Christian worldview, God does not hide but insteads enjoys the thrill of discovery. Creation is ordered in a way to allow humans to find the ‘easter eggs’. He designed in the character of men and women different kinds of curiosity. Men are designed to ‘wild at heart’ and become adventurous, explorers, scientist, engineers, etc… and women were designed to be adventurous in other ways. God’s fingerprints are said to be all over creation. There are entire works on this topic.
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ID does not predict anything. ID is a school of rational thought that houses numerous theories. In ID, God is often called the watchmaker. Evolution is one theory under an umbrella of theories known as the Blind Watchmaker Theories. The difference between the two is not only is there a God or not but the science is different bwtween the two.
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@Cinna
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I disagree. In fact, review of the Theologians who worked on the Dead Seascrolls would disagree with you too.
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@Googie
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Evolution is counter to the science the Designer put in place. Evolution relies on a couple of axioms that are untrue. First, true randomness does not exist in this universe at all. There is no mathematical formula, the language of science, that can model it. Probability cannot be random because it is a limited set of outcomes with recurring patterns that are characterized by a mathematical formula. Second, there is no evidence of vertical or transpecies mutations. For hundreds of years dogs have been bred all kinds of ways and all we have are dogs, a lot of kinds of dogs. There has been no genetic drift, no random actions, and no adaptation causing dogs to become another species.
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Science deals with complexity and order only. Thoughts of origin are not science. Hence, Darwin’s ‘Origin of a Species’ is not a science but instead an attempt to use science in order to develop a cosmological revelation that you are the result of random action. The counter view to this is that you were designed and created for a purpose. Life in this counter view is defined as an embodiment and a spirit. There is an image that was placed into your embodiment and calls out to your conscience. Life under evolution is defined as a series of biological and chemical processes. Evolution as a cosmological revelation cannot account for your self-awareness and conscience.
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I highly encourage you to seek out understanding of these things in greater detail.
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What really gets me is that they want to teach ID as science. OK, sure, lets put ID in a science class. If it is a serious science class then ID would have to be treated as a hypothesis as there is no proof. Evolution, on the other hand, can be taught as a theory as there is proof. Why don’t they just teach ID in theology, it is a religious, or faith based, hypothesis, it belongs in religious instruction or theology, not science. ID also happens to be a reaction of the Christian Churches to evolution blowing their creation myth out of the water. It is a hypothesis tailored to trying to hold back the tide of evidence. Furthermore, it is treated as a joke everywhere but in the USA.
The other thing is why do religious people want to convince others of their beliefs. You believe in your god and hypotheses about creation and the like, fine. But why do you have to try and convince me? I’m not running around trying to convince religious people not to believe in god, I assume it is their choice. Why can’t you leave me to my choice. What is your problem?
DS
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@DavidSSS:
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You are exactly right one problem is choice. Another problem is the science.
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IRT choice: You are viewing the situation through your choice lense insisting that your choice is right and want to limit other choices. For what ever reasons you made a choice and the presence of another choice challenges you to rethink your current position. Evolution is masquerading as a science. It is not a science or a theory. It is a cosmological revelation from its inception. Evolution is an alternative to other thoughts, principally Christianity. Evolution has theories and a science that are used to justify it. Evolution is challenged on its cosmological revelation and it is challenged on its science (its sense of order and complexity). You must be willing to reflect on challenges to your beliefs to either confirm them or deny them. If you cannot do that then your understanding has no substance.
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IRT the science: People make up thier science to fit their strange beliefs. It is certainly the case with Global Warming and so far it is the case with evolution. The very underpinnings of evolution are not even remotely true and honest science has shown this too many times. So all the higher level arguments are senseless because the foundation has been washed out. I cringe at these high school teachers who teach crap science and listen to them espouse their strange personal views as some sort of naturalistic axiom. Folks I cannot say this enough science only deal with complexity and order vice randomness.
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What needs to happen is ethics and integrity needs to return to science. Teachers need to teach on the basis of complexity and order. A humanitarian course needs to teach ideologies like Evolution, Christianity, buddism, Islam, etc… In fact, a comparative humanities course would do wonders in solving this problem. But the greatest thing we need to do is restore science to its prestine state untouched by evolution or other doctrines.
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Religious people share their understanding not much different than evolutionist insist on their belief. It seems all humans need a God and part of a life’s adventure is to discover who is that God. Even atheist have a God that is a NULL. They defend a NULL with ferocity despite claiming they have nothing to defend. But attack thier defensive points, mainly evolution, and they go beserk.
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In the end, humans cannot get away from “The God Issue”. It is clearly part of our make up. Some people defend God and other people deny God. This only tells me that there is something to deny and it must be God. So which side of God are you on?
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how can you tell us that becuase we deny god there must be something to deny? your arguements are seriously lacking and i dont want to waste my time when all i will have thrown back is content taken from the bible which just happens to be the only unstable evidence your religion has. forget about this holy spirit for a minute and really think about where the bible has come from, who wrote it and what time of time frame it would have been made up over. think back to playing chinese whispers in school. unfortunatly delusion is wide spread in our species.
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@davehead:
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Stop referring to ‘my religion’ I never once stated anything about ‘my religion’. Just because I have knowledge and can argue from various positions does not reveal who I am. It only reveals that I have an understanding. It is because of my understanding that I have choosen something that is unknown to you.
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I have not thrown back Bible verses. So get off your high horse!
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We live in a polar universe; off or on, black or white, good or evil, male or female, left or right, up or down, hot or cold, God or no God. One cannot deny something if its alternative exists. It an old Greek philosophical argument.
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In the Christian worldview, the Bible was written over 2000 years and is a anthrology of 66 books penned by 44 different scribes. The Christians believe that it was inspired by the Holy spirit (coincidentally, there is an evil spirit too) in order to maintain a consistent message. In otherwords, humans wrote it down who were inspired by the Holy Spirit and God himself authored it. There is no single source of the Bible other than God. It was assembled from principally three different document sets. Two are dated around 1000 AD were used to organize the King James Version of the Bible. The other document set was discovered later, 1947, and was written at the time of Christ by the Qumran. The 1947 document discovery corroborated the earlier document discoveries validating the King James version of the Bible as an accurate account. Coincidentally, the document set written at the time of Christ is the Dead Sea Scrolls and was discovered by a nomadic sheppard searching for his lost sheep the day the U.N. voted to form the nation of Israel, May 14th, 1947.
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Christ is a lamb, church leaders are sheppards, and believers are sheep. Is it odd that a sheppard is searching for his lost sheep and finds the Dead Sea Scrolls at the same time Israel is formed as prophetized? It is a little spooky to me.
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By the way, the in the Christian Worldview God’s fingerprints are all over creation. In order to see this evidence you’ll need to study what the Bible is saying and have a firm graspof science. However, you seem so repulsed by the Bible that you’ll never known what it truly says. I also doubt you’ll ever have a honest understanding of science either. So you’ll probably believe whatever Star Trek fantasizes or so nut like Micheal Schermer who follies with people who will believe just about anything.
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not trying to argue or be a dick now… youve studied way to much to arguments over the internet, so im guessing you have other reasons for studying this topic? if you have one what is your religion? or what are your beleifs? seems youve argued against points people have made with material you have read but havnt givin your own point of view. so… what are your beliefs on how the universe was created?
i have to say sorry, after reading back i realised you havnt been throwing bible quotes as alot of people do.
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@Davehead:
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It is true I have studied these topics and more. I prefer to keep my faith closely held at this time.
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My views of the universe’s creation process are emerging as I learn more. My original career was in Aerospace Engineering which has influenced my understanding tremendously. Knowing what I know after nearly 400 quarter hours of education of which I have extensive mathematics training and physics coursework there are several things I cannot embrace. They are:
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1. There is no such thing as true randomness. It amazes me how many people believe the natural ‘order’ is to be ‘random’. Those two conditions are mutually exclusive of each other! They cannot coexist except in the minds of humans.
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2. I cannot embrace the classic sense of a miracle which centers on a ‘god’ acting out of his sovereignty to do something that appears unnatural or magic – random. In time, even Biblical miracles are revealed to humans and a science or order to the event becomes understood. In the Biblical view, miracles are never the point either. They are attention getters to make a point.
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3. I cannot embrace the most of the ’science’ of evolution. A vast majority of the material is simply is not science. Both Darwin, Dawkins, and Sagan are plagued by the same problem. They allow their cosmological views to influence their sense of science. In fact, Sagan was known to go on TV and make shocking remarks about humanity with bogus science. Sci-fi writer, Michael Crichton, wrote an interesting commentary called ‘Aliens Cause Global Warming’ which highlights some of the problems.
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The creation process may be something far different than evolution and even the creationist view of a potter at work. The natural process of creation may center on quantum discovery and string theory concepts. The process ‘ingredients’ may be light and information.
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What I am about to describe sounds like the ‘Holodeck’ in ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ but was understood long before the TV show fantasized about this technology. The natural process could be this notion of ‘compactness’ in which light waves come together to form a particle. Hence, the particle-wave theory of light. Information is then added that causes the particle to form in specific ways as it becomes more complex during a natural assembly process through the orders of magnitude (sub-atomic, atomic, mesophysical, molecular, physical, etc..). Additional information is then forward staged or buffered in a register of sorts in the form of DNA to facilitate the creation of life. Intelligent molecular machines (made of protiens and amino acids) known as nano-probes go to the DNA gather instructions then endow biological life. Hence, human natural existence may only be the execution of this process as through a quantum computer is executing some algorythm.
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While this explains the natural it does not explain the presence of a conscience or the human spirit. Also science cannot explain where the information comes from in the DNA? So the points on origin are not of science but a cosmological, theological, and philosophical discussion.
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In short, high school science gets it very wrong when they call evolution a science!
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Humans have three basic questions they need to answer during their lives and they are not science questions:
1. Where do I come from?
2. Why do I exist?
3. What happens when I die?
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Evolution attempts to answer with a false sense of science.
1. Where do I come from? Chemical and biological processes.
2. Why do I exist? It happened out of random chance
3. What happens when I die? decompose to inert matter
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The Bible attempts to answer with a revelation.
1. Where do I come from? You were known before the foundations of time and placed into an embodiment by a patient and loving God.
2. Why do I exist? The purpose of humans is to worship a God who desires to be among humans.
3. What happens when I die? The body and spirit are separated for the purpose of judgement. Those who are saints are retunred to a new embodiment made perfect and prepared for entry into New Jerusalem. Those who rejected God are condemned. You don’t him then he does not want you.
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For reflective purposes I’ll compare this to Islam:
1. Where do I come from? No explanation other than created by Allah. The Koran creation account speaks of the Earth on the back of a gallactic turtle.
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish.
3. What happens when I die? Allah decides who gets into Mulsim Utopia. The only assured way is to be a martyr or esentially commit suicide. Coincidentally, in Christianity suicide is a unforegivable sin – it is an assured way to get in to hell or the Hotel California (a song about living a material life then dying and going to hell).
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BTW Sura 112 in the Koran is direct denial of John 3:16 in the Bible. It cracks me up to listen to people argue that Islam and Christianity are nearly the same since they came from Abraham. There are no closest points of approach. The two are diametrically opposite on EVERY single point they make. Abraham’s mention is only token in Islam and his mother Ter was a moon worshipper and the source for the Crescent a top the mosque. Abraham for no real explanation rejected all the Gods being worshipped and worshipped only one God – the Judeo\Christian God.
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Anyhow, the point being in all this is that science deals with complexity and order. If that alone is taught then I don’t see a problem. Evolution is clearly a cosmological revelation and has no place in the public schools.
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@all:
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I type these responses late at night often and sometimes confound my sentences. I need to clarify a statement.
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Under the Islam comparison:
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish
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Should read:
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims; namely the Christians and the Jewish.
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i would have alot to write about it i had the patience to write so much and know where to begin.. i dont know how you do it. I do believe that existance is random and has no place for things such as fate, kama and all those sorts of superstition. I dont think i need to explain my view on miracles. Although evolution seems a bit far fetched i think is the best answer i have heard of so far. Im sure most of us understand that its entirely possible that can be scrapped and a new theory can take its place.
one event i cant seem to embrace is the big bang. in my view for there to be a big bang there needs to be something there in the first place. maybe we are living in a universe that has always existed and doesnt have a starting point. the large explosion at the so called begining may have been just a large star big enough that we cannot comprehend.
the reason i am so repulsed by the bible is that there is some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that… although i dont remember alot of it i had read parts of the bible during primary school in riligious instructions and alot of it just seemed like fairy tails. for example.. noahs ark. 2 of every animal on one boat? is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the earth? and the 7 days of creation… this might sound like a petty arguement but with the size of the unirverse, the amount of stars that are out there and all the other possible planets, why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? i dont think i remember the rest of the universe even being included. being 2 in the morning right now im a little tired and dont have concentration to word things properly but im sure you get my point. i believe science tries to give us answers and doesnt mind being proven wrong.
science may not be able to explain the human concience but it may in time. just as we were able to discover what each section of the brain was responsible for. got distracted and now ive forgotten what i was on about..
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MrMiami, we are glad you are no longer an areospace engineer. Unfortunatley in this culture we no longer believe ariplanes fly becuse angels are carrying them on their wings. Of course, everything is debatable, but we have yet to find a single angel feather stuck in the jet engine.
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The trouble with Christianity or any religion is its believers are at various stages of maturity in understanding the faith. As an outcome they make incorrect comments based on incomplete understandings. Common misunderstandings in Christianity include MATT 7:1; Judge Not yet ye be Judged. Some Christians actually believe they cannot judge based on this verse. The true understanding is the complete context of Matt 7 is man cannot condemn because that is God’s exclusive right. However, each man must make himself right in order to judge between right and wrong conduct. Other common misunderstandings include ‘turning the other cheek’ and capital punishment. To answer some of your questions, I’ll present a Christian view:
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Noah’s ark. Two of every animal on one boat? The Bible states that only land animals were taken on board. Fish were not. Christians also believe that only one breed of each species was brought on the ark. Over time there no transpecies mutations only interbredding that lead to the large variation in horses, cattle, dogs, birds, etc… The physical dimensions of the ark are in the Bible and it is large enough to carry feed and more animals than found in most zoos.
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Is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the Earth? Christians, for one, believe that the climate was different during the days of Noah. They believe a thick cloud cover enveloped the Earth in the early times. There was some climatic, solar, or planetary event that caused the cloud cover to disipate in the form of rain and contributed to the flooding. The collateral effect was also to shorten the human life span due to the aging effects of solar radiation. The Bible also remarks that the Earth itself opened up and water welled up out of the ground too.
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And the 7 days for creation? The Christian doctrine is that the Universe’s creation was in 7 days. Christian believers possess a wide variation on this theme. Fundamentalist typically remark that a day is 24 hrs and it took tooks days. Afterall, we are talking about a God. More relaxed thoughts consider a host of things. Science has clearly proven that the largest object is 10 to the plus 40th meters and the smallest is 10 to the minus 33 meters. These are limitations of boundaries on the physical universe. It is perfectly ordered and indeterminant. Hence, naturally there is no such thing as infinity in addition to there is no randomness either. The process of creation could have been ‘programatic’ development or evolutionary development. Some Intelligent Design proponents suggests that God wrote the ‘computer code’ in 6 days and executed it then rested. As the code ran it assembled the natural and God ‘tweaked’ the code from time-to-time. This view is consistent with many scientific findings.
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Some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that. The Christian view is one that dinosaurs and humans coexisted at one point. The Bible makes reference to two instances of large beast. It also makes references to giant humanoid life forms called the Nephylum. In part the Nephylum is why the great flood happened. Carbon dating has enormous errors in it of plus or minus 40,000 years too. Also science has proven that light is slowing down and physicists believe that light was far more quicker in the early universe. So if one is basing the age of the universe on the speed of light being constant then enormous errors could occur in computing the age of the universe causing one to think it is older than it is.
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Why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? The Bible account of creation indicates that the Earth was created BEFORE the rest of the universe because the Earth and the universe was design for human occupation. The Bible indiciates that Humans cannot see the largest or the smallest things, that the universe is made of nothing, and that Christ himself personally holds it together. Science has shown that in terms of orders of magnitude the Earth is located smack dabb in the center. Humans are at 10 to the zero meters and the Earth is at about 10 to the plus four meters. I spoke of the smallest and the largest already. Christians also believe that God exists outside space-time eventhough he is an active participant in space-time. Thus, if one is outside the fish bowl from that perspective it is not that grand of a place.
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Regarding the human conscience, science has struggled with what it defines as the mind-brain problem for eons. The closest science can come to this issue is the order and complexity of the brain. On a good day the closest a soft science, Psychology, can get to understanding the mind is so negligable that it is not worth mentioning. The mind is largely not understood. However, the best theory on the brain mechanics I can discern is the Holographic brain. Biblically, a human embodiment is composed of several spiritual elements; an image, a soul, and a metaphorical or analoguos heart. Christians believe that the mind and the heart are linked based on scriptures as usual. The Bible indicates that the Heart is so corrupted that once a human allows the Holy Spirit to enter the body the heart is cast out and a new one is given. The battle is for the human soul and in the end the Anti-christ goes to the extent of placing his image in humans embodiments who already have corrupted hearts linked to thier minds. God basically goes nuts over this and essentially raises hell.
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@all:
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I got to get better at this. Some quick corrections on review:
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1. At least two breeds needed to be on the ark in order to cause interbreeding.
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2. 7 day creation clarification. If humans can get a burger in one minute and eye glasses in an hour why can’t a God create a universe in 7 days? Don’t forget he is outside of his creation at the instant of creation. His spirit enter the Earth in the beginning but he, himself, did enter the time domain until he walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam. It he is outside space-time then time really has no relevance. When looking at the Fish bowl from outside the world inside seems pretty small.
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@Cannibal:
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Your insults are duly noted as a testament to you character.
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BTW there are three theories on why airplanes fly; circulation, mass flow rate, and pressure-vaccuum theories. They are only theories and no really knows why planes fly but none of those theories include angels.
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If your angel theory of flight did exist then I am confident that a feather would be stuck up your anal orifice putting you into flight.
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since its a first offence lets just pretend you didnt quote the bible. it has no place here. unless it comes from the writings of our profit, bobby. but yeah you didnt really use it as an arguement..
Im pretty sure the boat i have sitting my by back yard has enough room to hold the variety of animals kept at most zoos. did noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world? kangaroos arnt very good swimmers. even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution. just over a longer period of time adaptation comes in aswell.
even if the bible says so, i dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it. even if all the ice in the poles was to melt, aswell as glaciers. there wouldnt be enough water to flood the earth. clouds come from moisture from water evaporating from the earths surface so thats not going to make a very big contribution… an alternative would be it magically appeared. i think the link between global warming and the number of pirates is more believable.
there might be a variance of 40,000 years on carbon dating, but that is a marginal error that is still greater than the supposed age of the universe.
hasnt the bible changed from several times? one of the last times to accomidate the existance of dinosours? even with an error of 40,000 years carbon dating sets them back… say… millions of years ago.
as with the 7 day creation… im not going to go there. the Flying Spaghetti Monster could do it in 6. with ease.
i think apart from the human conscience, science has the brain worked out pretty well. well enough to perform surgury on it is good for me. might not always be succesful though. the heart is a muscle that pumps blood around our bodies. no more. doesnt have anything to do with corruption. i’ve met quite a few christians and i can say pretty easily theyre evil people and i have more morals than all of them.
where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute? im getting sick of waiting for my food at 2 am when i finish work. your last post seemed a little more christian. we dont need to know about any information from the bible.
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@Davehead
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You are asking questions about Christianity, hence I am presenting those views to you. And you continue to ask questions. I’ll continue to respond with the Christian view point.
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You asked, “Did Noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world?” The Christian understanding is that all the animals were onboard before the rain began and the Christian believe that the animals came to Noah based on Genesis 7:8-10.
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You remarked, “Even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution.” In Darwin’s own Tree of Life or the phylogenetic tree, breeds are a subset of a species. Therefore, increasing breeds does not cause a change in species. It causes a alot of different breeds within a species. Vertical evolution or transpecie evolution is not supported by breeding. The alleged science purported is “random” genetic drift. Using Leonardo Di Vinci practice of ‘demonstrazoni’ we have not observed or been able to demonstrate successful processes of ‘random genetic drift’. In fact, science is not possible if randomness exist because then the ethics of science demand repeatable demonstrations of the natural phenomenon or process. Anything random cannot be repeated since it will always be something else!
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You commented, “I dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it.” A Christian would remark that the Beverly Hillbillies had black gold, oil, bubble up from the ground! Second, Old Faithful blows out of the ground. Third, Coors beer is made from natural springs that orginate from underground. The natural condition of the Earth at the time of the Flood was a climate far different than today’s less violent Earth. Christian science sees the entire Earth completely enveloped in a thick cloud cover that probably reached higher than thunderheads today. This cloud cover completely disipated. There may have been large underground pools of water similar to todays oil reserves that became released perhaps with volcanic or tectonic forces. All this violent activity could have begun with an impact of a large meteor and the Earth has evidence of deep impacts in the past. Global temperatures also were higher due to the massive cloud layer and polar ice caps did not form until the cloud layer dissipated. This could account for where the water receded to after the 150 days.
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You commented, “Hasn’t the Bible changed from several times? One of the last times to accomodate the existence of dinosours?” The Bible has always commented directly on Dinosaurs in verses Job 40:15-24 and Psalm 104:25-26. There has been no change. Other references to large monsters include Genesis 6:4, the Nephillum. Some Christian’s speculate that Goliath of 1 SAM 17 was a Nephillum. Nephillum were all male creatures who were superhuman in strength and speed. Fallen angels were having sex with human women and creating this hybrid race of Nephillum or the fallen ones. In Greek they were called the Earth born. These beast are thought to return in the end times based on Biblical references.
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You queried, “Where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute?” My kitchen. Actually I believe MacDonalds grill time is exactly one minute for a hamburger patty. It may take you longer if they put all the trimmings on.
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What you need to do is take a serious look at all the arguments and worldviews to determine what it is you should beleive. Study science and ethics of scientific rigor. I think you’ll find that evolution completely falls apart and there is no stength to it. You’ll see Christain have a lot of silliness among the their thoughts. You’ll see idiocy in the Islamic views. You’ll need get down to the most fundamental basics and buildup from there. I have spent a lot of money and time since 2001 studying and writing papers trying to get a grasp on this illusion of life. It is not easy but I am coming to a point where I cannot find resources to satisfy my thirst for understanding. I have come along way I believe and it has cost me. I have been in vile arguments and even called out in church not for heresy, my beliefs or lack of belief but instead because the Pastor was not the Christian he purported himself to be. His
prideful arrogance oozed like ectoplasmatic slim. So who am i, a Christian, a atheist, an agnostic, or something else?
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You comment says the same about yourself.
MrMiami, there is 5,400 species of mammals, 9,703 species of birds, 8,225 kinds of reptiles, over a million described species of insects, and about 350,000 species of land plants.
Keep in mind that according to the definition, a species consists of a group of organisms thet can interbreed wth each other, but not with other species. You can’t cross an ostrich with a pelican and get a heron. Besides that, if interbreeding between different species could produce new species, then why aren’t we getting new kinds of animals every day? Why aren’t there no dragons, unicorns, or merimaids?
Now, the big question, how did Noah cart that menagerie around for 40 days even if he had the largest most technologically sophisticated ark humanity has eve seen?
Sorry, all your beloney sounds just like the angel theory of airplane flight. You obviously have a severely retarded understanding of science, especially biology.
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@Cannibal:
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Are you arguing just to argue? You are projecting, “I know you are so what am I?” You’ll need to stop the projection techniques. Those are methods that children use to get the lime light off of their poor conduct.
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My points exactly. If interbreeding between different species could produce new species, then why aren’t we getting new kinds of animals every day? Why aren’t there no dragons, unicorns, or merimaids? Evolution’s notion that genetic drift due to cross breeding and random action causes or creates a new species is NOT true.
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You asked, “How did Noah cart that menagerie around for 40 days even if he had the largest most technologically sophisticated ark humanity has ever seen?” First, off it rained for 40 days and the ark was afloat for 150 days. The size of the ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high; Genesis 6:15. If you are going to make remarks at least be accurate. A Christian would remark that there are on a Cruise ship, not much larger than the ark, a crew of 1000 and upto 2500 passengers with plenty of room to spare. Second, those numbers of species need to be verified. Third, you are only viewing things through a worldly lense. We are talking God here and maybe it was like a hippy commune onboard. Everyone was sleeping with everyone else. You know lions and tigers, cats and dogs. It was all about love.
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From a Christian and a science view point, if there is some sort of evolutionary process why has the process been elusive? If a stable process exists then why have we not seen animals in various stages of the evolutionary track from some protoplasmal globule to a human? Evolutionist claim it is a process that executed on one time and only one thread line is executing. Does that sound like a natural process? Science cannot even demonstrate the process through experimentation.
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What is the answer?
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@ALL:
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Paul Davies (Secular British astrophysicist): “There is, for me, powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all….It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe….The impression of design is overwhelming”.
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Davies, P. 1988. The Cosmic Blueprint: New Discoveries in Nature’s Creative Ability To Order the Universe. New York: Simon and Schuster, p.203.
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Once again I cannot embrace Evolution. It is a TRAVESTY that so-called educated people embrace the fantasy of evolution as a science when it is not. It is a BASELESS cosmological revelation that uses a pseudo-science whose underpinnings are false premises.
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True randomness does not exist as a naturalistic phenomenon. Hence, random genetic drift and random action simply do not occur. In the language of science, mathematics, there can be no formula for random action because it would become ordered and not random.
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Naturalisitc infintity does not exist in this universe. Hence this universe is bounded and there are only limited outcomes – probabilistic outcomes. In mathematics, infinity is a surreal number NOT a real number.
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Evolutionary processes are not testable nor demonstratable withstanding scientific rigor. Evolutionist obfuscate the evolutionary science in noise that is too complex, too slow, too random to fully understand which is counter to science.
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There is no empirical strength to evolution. It is mired in hoax after hoax after hoax.
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I CANNOT BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE SO GULLIBLE TO BELIEVE IN THIS EVOLUTION NONSENSE AND THAT WE ARE TEACHING THIS CRAP TO OUR YOUTH. HAVE WE NO SHAME? I SUPPOSE NOT.
Our children, our future, need to be taught the freedom of thought and HOW to learn. Telling our children some specific and not training them for independent thought is indoctrination not education!
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I’m not even going to bother argueing, you are talkng out of your arse.
Carl sagan (All round awesomeness): “It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
What proof is there to back anything that is written in any religious text? Intellegent design is fantasy. You seem like a smart enough person yet lack a grip on reality.
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@Davehead:
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Carl Sagan is known to be the worse physicists of all times. He allows his worldview to influence his science. He jumps the gun. Read the article byMicheal Crichton “Aliens Caused Global Warming” http://www.crichton-official.com/speech-alienscauseglobalwarming.html.
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Intelligent Design is as much a secular thing as it is a religious thing. The Christians take it farther than the secularist when they reconcile it with the Bible. Both acknowledge the evidence of design is overwhelming and compelling.
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I am not talking out of my arse. The problem is that too many people do not look at science through a non-bias lens. They come toit with a belief and try to fit the science to the belief. Evolution is such a belief.
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Lets see…
Firstly, unless you want to challenge the current theory of radioactive decay, I believe there’s enough evidence to suggest that the Earth is several billion years old. Of course, compared to these numbers, an error margin of 40,000 years is hardly significant (of course, you wouldn’t use the carbon-14 methodology in this case. More probably Uranium-238 decay, but I’m not really sure). So given this, I choose to believe that the bible is wrong, at the very least in this aspect of the issue: the Earth was not so recently “created” as it is claimed in ID.
Secondly, unless you think that the fossil remains of ancient hominids were placed by God to confound the unbelievers, those creatures existed. What you could challenge, perhaps, is that they share a connection with the human race.
Well… I study engineering. And as every good engineer knows, when one measures anything, be that the variation of temperatures in an oven or the neutralization curve of an acid, it is impossible, even forgetting about the errors implicit in the measuring, to take the infinite measures necessary to plot a COMPLETE curve that shows the behaviour of a system. So you just make do with some points in your graph, taking into account the errors involved. You look at them really hard and you say “Hm… I think this looks like an exponential/linear equation/quadratic equation”. After this, you use your preferred adjusting or interpolating program and voilá. There you have the equation that solves, with reasonable error, your problem.
And wether you want to believe it or not, that IS science. It’s science at it’s most basic. Down to when I had to measure a table with a ruler fifty times the first day I went to physics laboratory.
And that is what the theory of evolution is about. You look at similarities between fossils and current humans and you plot a possible “course of evolution” throughout prehistory. As you learn more and find more fossils, you discard some lineages, as you would discard a temperature measure that was wrongly taken in the oven. And you improve your theory.
So, to put it simply, ID contradicts several scientific findings, whereas evolution does not. Granted, the theory of evolution might not be complete, but it, also, evolved and still evolves.
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“1. Where do I come from? No explanation other than created by Allah. The Koran creation account speaks of the Earth on the back of a gallactic turtle.
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish.
3. What happens when I die? Allah decides who gets into Mulsim Utopia. The only assured way is to be a martyr or esentially commit suicide. Coincidentally, in Christianity suicide is a unforegivable sin – it is an assured way to get in to hell or the Hotel California (a song about living a material life then dying and going to hell).”
Wow, way to make a comparitive to Islam and not know anything about it. No further explanation? Maybe you should read up more about Abraham, buddy. Reason to exist? It’s called Tawhid, one of the most fundamental concepts in Islam. What happens when I die? They call it paradise, or a state closer to the will of Allah.
I can’t believe you find a few lines that contradict each other and claim that the religions are all that different. At the core, the values that each one holds, is identical. The story of Jesus and the Ressurection is a must believe in Christianty, and that is where they part, but the values held by each or scarily similar. If you came here to defend Christianity, just know that we were never attacking it.
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Religius theories and Evolution theories. Yes BOTH of them is theories, becaus none of it is just more than jsut that, theories. We can’t say that God exist, and we cant say that he is existing. The same is to the evolution theories, we don’t have enough proof that neither of them exist. But the human mind needs something to belive in, and with that in mind, we humans create something to belive in, either if it is Religion or if it is Evolution.
Now, have anyone of you seen Zeitgeist? It takes up quite many interesting paralells between religius faiths, at least in part one. And no, I don’t take this up becaus I want to pick a fight. I do it becaus of davehead, MrMiami and Cannibals “dirt-flings” if I have the right to say so.
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
Watch it, becaus it gives a loot interesting things, the only thing is that the intro is 9 minutes and that it contains some not-so-good laughters in it. Watch part one ( 30 min after the intro ) and if you try to discuss it here, please use proper language and don’t kick on others beliefs.
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When it comes down to religion in school run it as a theology class, history 101 of the worlds religions.
Broadening the view of kids and showing them how like most religions are is never a bad idea…altho bible thumpers(of any religion) will get their noses out of joint over it because they can not be on top….
Pastafarianism modern parody or not is a off shoot of Christianity like a dozen other variants that has odd or strange customs its not better/worse than them.. whats the old saying, whats the diffrance in a “religion” and a “cult”, numbers,popularity,ect,ect…
For the most part one could agree with it but my take is (in a zippyisim non the elss)
“The purpose of religion is to bring humans together to understand them selfs and their faith, when it divides people into petty labels and damns them for being “different” it is nothing more than a cult that lives off fear,greed and ignorance, for its far more easy to hate and fear than love, forgive and move on.”:ZippyDSmlee
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Science answers the “how”, not the “why”. Evolution is a theory to explain how life, from it´s humble beginings, evolved to more and more complex forms and even sentient beings.
It does not answer “why” there are sentient beings, especially not why you and me are here. Nor it explains what our “purpose” is or what we can expect after our death.
If you are looking for answers to these questions, you´ll likely not find them through evidences, facts or observations. You´ll find them within yourself. And each has to find his own answers.
But confusing your personal answers to these questions with the hard reality of facts, evidences and observations is folly. It is simply not enough to show shortcomings and obscurities within scientific theories. A theory doesn´t have to be perfect, it just needs to be *better than any other theory*.
So we can´t disprove the existence of the jewish/christian/islamic god and therefore need to teach creationism in schools?
Than we have to teach the existence of the FSM as well, as no one can disprove It. We also have to teach the theory of “hey we´re all living in a gigantic computer simulation it´s true i swear” because no one can disprove it. Hell, no one can “disprove” that *I* created the universe within the last 5 minutes.
At some point its not about “can we disprove it” but rather about “how far does it get us?” Science has the advantage that people are actually welcome to argue about it. The scientific view of the world and the universe has changed, sometimes dramatically, through the last centuries. Instead of ignoring or repressing new evidence, it is evaluated and integrated.
And lastly, “God did it” doesn´t explain anything.
“God created humanity” is an explanation for our existence as “factories created cars” is for the existence of the automobile. It always begs the question “Well, where did God come from?”. And that question is left just as unanswered as the question “where does the universe come from” is by science.
“Why do I exist?” Because God wants it. “Why does he want my existence?” Uh… because he has got some divine plan we wouldn´t understand. Great. So I exist for some reason I won´t understand anyway, but hey, I´m glad there is a reason after all…
Where do I go when I die?” Apparently to some greast place, kinda makes you wonder why we have to put up with this existence here on earth anyway. And why do so few people ask “Where were I before I died?” I mean, that question is just as important, isn´t it?
If I came from nothing, it´s quite likely I´ll just go back to nothing. If I existed in some form, I apparently have no memories – which are essentially to define “me”. Even if I continue to exist in some form, without my memories, my personality, it won´t be “me”.
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