Comments on: Polk County to include Intelligent Design http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm Sat, 17 May 2008 12:25:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: davehead http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-440959 davehead Mon, 12 May 2008 12:28:09 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-440959 I'm not even going to bother argueing, you are talkng out of your arse. Carl sagan (All round awesomeness): "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." What proof is there to back anything that is written in any religious text? Intellegent design is fantasy. You seem like a smart enough person yet lack a grip on reality. I’m not even going to bother argueing, you are talkng out of your arse.

Carl sagan (All round awesomeness): “It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

What proof is there to back anything that is written in any religious text? Intellegent design is fantasy. You seem like a smart enough person yet lack a grip on reality.

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-440047 MrMiami Sun, 11 May 2008 19:27:24 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-440047 @ALL: . Paul Davies (Secular British astrophysicist): "There is, for me, powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming". . Davies, P. 1988. The Cosmic Blueprint: New Discoveries in Nature's Creative Ability To Order the Universe. New York: Simon and Schuster, p.203. . Once again I cannot embrace Evolution. It is a TRAVESTY that so-called educated people embrace the fantasy of evolution as a science when it is not. It is a BASELESS cosmological revelation that uses a pseudo-science whose underpinnings are false premises. . True randomness does not exist as a naturalistic phenomenon. Hence, random genetic drift and random action simply do not occur. In the language of science, mathematics, there can be no formula for random action because it would become ordered and not random. . Naturalisitc infintity does not exist in this universe. Hence this universe is bounded and there are only limited outcomes - probabilistic outcomes. In mathematics, infinity is a surreal number NOT a real number. . Evolutionary processes are not testable nor demonstratable withstanding scientific rigor. Evolutionist obfuscate the evolutionary science in noise that is too complex, too slow, too random to fully understand which is counter to science. . There is no empirical strength to evolution. It is mired in hoax after hoax after hoax. . I CANNOT BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE SO GULLIBLE TO BELIEVE IN THIS EVOLUTION NONSENSE AND THAT WE ARE TEACHING THIS CRAP TO OUR YOUTH. HAVE WE NO SHAME? I SUPPOSE NOT. Our children, our future, need to be taught the freedom of thought and HOW to learn. Telling our children some specific and not training them for independent thought is indoctrination not education! @ALL:
.
Paul Davies (Secular British astrophysicist): “There is, for me, powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all….It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe….The impression of design is overwhelming”.
.
Davies, P. 1988. The Cosmic Blueprint: New Discoveries in Nature’s Creative Ability To Order the Universe. New York: Simon and Schuster, p.203.
.
Once again I cannot embrace Evolution. It is a TRAVESTY that so-called educated people embrace the fantasy of evolution as a science when it is not. It is a BASELESS cosmological revelation that uses a pseudo-science whose underpinnings are false premises.
.
True randomness does not exist as a naturalistic phenomenon. Hence, random genetic drift and random action simply do not occur. In the language of science, mathematics, there can be no formula for random action because it would become ordered and not random.
.
Naturalisitc infintity does not exist in this universe. Hence this universe is bounded and there are only limited outcomes - probabilistic outcomes. In mathematics, infinity is a surreal number NOT a real number.
.
Evolutionary processes are not testable nor demonstratable withstanding scientific rigor. Evolutionist obfuscate the evolutionary science in noise that is too complex, too slow, too random to fully understand which is counter to science.
.
There is no empirical strength to evolution. It is mired in hoax after hoax after hoax.
.
I CANNOT BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE SO GULLIBLE TO BELIEVE IN THIS EVOLUTION NONSENSE AND THAT WE ARE TEACHING THIS CRAP TO OUR YOUTH. HAVE WE NO SHAME? I SUPPOSE NOT.

Our children, our future, need to be taught the freedom of thought and HOW to learn. Telling our children some specific and not training them for independent thought is indoctrination not education!

]]> By: Cannibal http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-435133 Cannibal Wed, 07 May 2008 18:41:56 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-435133 You comment says the same about yourself. MrMiami, there is 5,400 species of mammals, 9,703 species of birds, 8,225 kinds of reptiles, over a million described species of insects, and about 350,000 species of land plants. Keep in mind that according to the definition, a species consists of a group of organisms thet can interbreed wth each other, but not with other species. You can't cross an ostrich with a pelican and get a heron. Besides that, if interbreeding between different species could produce new species, then why aren't we getting new kinds of animals every day? Why aren't there no dragons, unicorns, or merimaids? Now, the big question, how did Noah cart that menagerie around for 40 days even if he had the largest most technologically sophisticated ark humanity has eve seen? Sorry, all your beloney sounds just like the angel theory of airplane flight. You obviously have a severely retarded understanding of science, especially biology. You comment says the same about yourself.

MrMiami, there is 5,400 species of mammals, 9,703 species of birds, 8,225 kinds of reptiles, over a million described species of insects, and about 350,000 species of land plants.

Keep in mind that according to the definition, a species consists of a group of organisms thet can interbreed wth each other, but not with other species. You can’t cross an ostrich with a pelican and get a heron. Besides that, if interbreeding between different species could produce new species, then why aren’t we getting new kinds of animals every day? Why aren’t there no dragons, unicorns, or merimaids?

Now, the big question, how did Noah cart that menagerie around for 40 days even if he had the largest most technologically sophisticated ark humanity has eve seen?

Sorry, all your beloney sounds just like the angel theory of airplane flight. You obviously have a severely retarded understanding of science, especially biology.

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-435049 MrMiami Wed, 07 May 2008 17:27:00 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-435049 @Davehead . You are asking questions about Christianity, hence I am presenting those views to you. And you continue to ask questions. I'll continue to respond with the Christian view point. . You asked, "Did Noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world?" The Christian understanding is that all the animals were onboard before the rain began and the Christian believe that the animals came to Noah based on Genesis 7:8-10. . You remarked, "Even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution." In Darwin's own Tree of Life or the phylogenetic tree, breeds are a subset of a species. Therefore, increasing breeds does not cause a change in species. It causes a alot of different breeds within a species. Vertical evolution or transpecie evolution is not supported by breeding. The alleged science purported is "random" genetic drift. Using Leonardo Di Vinci practice of 'demonstrazoni' we have not observed or been able to demonstrate successful processes of 'random genetic drift'. In fact, science is not possible if randomness exist because then the ethics of science demand repeatable demonstrations of the natural phenomenon or process. Anything random cannot be repeated since it will always be something else! . You commented, "I dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it." A Christian would remark that the Beverly Hillbillies had black gold, oil, bubble up from the ground! Second, Old Faithful blows out of the ground. Third, Coors beer is made from natural springs that orginate from underground. The natural condition of the Earth at the time of the Flood was a climate far different than today's less violent Earth. Christian science sees the entire Earth completely enveloped in a thick cloud cover that probably reached higher than thunderheads today. This cloud cover completely disipated. There may have been large underground pools of water similar to todays oil reserves that became released perhaps with volcanic or tectonic forces. All this violent activity could have begun with an impact of a large meteor and the Earth has evidence of deep impacts in the past. Global temperatures also were higher due to the massive cloud layer and polar ice caps did not form until the cloud layer dissipated. This could account for where the water receded to after the 150 days. . You commented, "Hasn't the Bible changed from several times? One of the last times to accomodate the existence of dinosours?" The Bible has always commented directly on Dinosaurs in verses Job 40:15-24 and Psalm 104:25-26. There has been no change. Other references to large monsters include Genesis 6:4, the Nephillum. Some Christian's speculate that Goliath of 1 SAM 17 was a Nephillum. Nephillum were all male creatures who were superhuman in strength and speed. Fallen angels were having sex with human women and creating this hybrid race of Nephillum or the fallen ones. In Greek they were called the Earth born. These beast are thought to return in the end times based on Biblical references. . You queried, "Where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute?" My kitchen. Actually I believe MacDonalds grill time is exactly one minute for a hamburger patty. It may take you longer if they put all the trimmings on. . What you need to do is take a serious look at all the arguments and worldviews to determine what it is you should beleive. Study science and ethics of scientific rigor. I think you'll find that evolution completely falls apart and there is no stength to it. You'll see Christain have a lot of silliness among the their thoughts. You'll see idiocy in the Islamic views. You'll need get down to the most fundamental basics and buildup from there. I have spent a lot of money and time since 2001 studying and writing papers trying to get a grasp on this illusion of life. It is not easy but I am coming to a point where I cannot find resources to satisfy my thirst for understanding. I have come along way I believe and it has cost me. I have been in vile arguments and even called out in church not for heresy, my beliefs or lack of belief but instead because the Pastor was not the Christian he purported himself to be. His prideful arrogance oozed like ectoplasmatic slim. So who am i, a Christian, a atheist, an agnostic, or something else? @Davehead
.
You are asking questions about Christianity, hence I am presenting those views to you. And you continue to ask questions. I’ll continue to respond with the Christian view point.
.
You asked, “Did Noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world?” The Christian understanding is that all the animals were onboard before the rain began and the Christian believe that the animals came to Noah based on Genesis 7:8-10.
.
You remarked, “Even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution.” In Darwin’s own Tree of Life or the phylogenetic tree, breeds are a subset of a species. Therefore, increasing breeds does not cause a change in species. It causes a alot of different breeds within a species. Vertical evolution or transpecie evolution is not supported by breeding. The alleged science purported is “random” genetic drift. Using Leonardo Di Vinci practice of ‘demonstrazoni’ we have not observed or been able to demonstrate successful processes of ‘random genetic drift’. In fact, science is not possible if randomness exist because then the ethics of science demand repeatable demonstrations of the natural phenomenon or process. Anything random cannot be repeated since it will always be something else!
.
You commented, “I dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it.” A Christian would remark that the Beverly Hillbillies had black gold, oil, bubble up from the ground! Second, Old Faithful blows out of the ground. Third, Coors beer is made from natural springs that orginate from underground. The natural condition of the Earth at the time of the Flood was a climate far different than today’s less violent Earth. Christian science sees the entire Earth completely enveloped in a thick cloud cover that probably reached higher than thunderheads today. This cloud cover completely disipated. There may have been large underground pools of water similar to todays oil reserves that became released perhaps with volcanic or tectonic forces. All this violent activity could have begun with an impact of a large meteor and the Earth has evidence of deep impacts in the past. Global temperatures also were higher due to the massive cloud layer and polar ice caps did not form until the cloud layer dissipated. This could account for where the water receded to after the 150 days.
.
You commented, “Hasn’t the Bible changed from several times? One of the last times to accomodate the existence of dinosours?” The Bible has always commented directly on Dinosaurs in verses Job 40:15-24 and Psalm 104:25-26. There has been no change. Other references to large monsters include Genesis 6:4, the Nephillum. Some Christian’s speculate that Goliath of 1 SAM 17 was a Nephillum. Nephillum were all male creatures who were superhuman in strength and speed. Fallen angels were having sex with human women and creating this hybrid race of Nephillum or the fallen ones. In Greek they were called the Earth born. These beast are thought to return in the end times based on Biblical references.
.
You queried, “Where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute?” My kitchen. Actually I believe MacDonalds grill time is exactly one minute for a hamburger patty. It may take you longer if they put all the trimmings on.
.
What you need to do is take a serious look at all the arguments and worldviews to determine what it is you should beleive. Study science and ethics of scientific rigor. I think you’ll find that evolution completely falls apart and there is no stength to it. You’ll see Christain have a lot of silliness among the their thoughts. You’ll see idiocy in the Islamic views. You’ll need get down to the most fundamental basics and buildup from there. I have spent a lot of money and time since 2001 studying and writing papers trying to get a grasp on this illusion of life. It is not easy but I am coming to a point where I cannot find resources to satisfy my thirst for understanding. I have come along way I believe and it has cost me. I have been in vile arguments and even called out in church not for heresy, my beliefs or lack of belief but instead because the Pastor was not the Christian he purported himself to be. His
prideful arrogance oozed like ectoplasmatic slim. So who am i, a Christian, a atheist, an agnostic, or something else?

]]> By: davehead http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-426761 davehead Sun, 04 May 2008 17:11:40 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-426761 since its a first offence lets just pretend you didnt quote the bible. it has no place here. unless it comes from the writings of our profit, bobby. but yeah you didnt really use it as an arguement.. Im pretty sure the boat i have sitting my by back yard has enough room to hold the variety of animals kept at most zoos. did noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world? kangaroos arnt very good swimmers. even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution. just over a longer period of time adaptation comes in aswell. even if the bible says so, i dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it. even if all the ice in the poles was to melt, aswell as glaciers. there wouldnt be enough water to flood the earth. clouds come from moisture from water evaporating from the earths surface so thats not going to make a very big contribution... an alternative would be it magically appeared. i think the link between global warming and the number of pirates is more believable. there might be a variance of 40,000 years on carbon dating, but that is a marginal error that is still greater than the supposed age of the universe. hasnt the bible changed from several times? one of the last times to accomidate the existance of dinosours? even with an error of 40,000 years carbon dating sets them back... say... millions of years ago. as with the 7 day creation... im not going to go there. the Flying Spaghetti Monster could do it in 6. with ease. i think apart from the human conscience, science has the brain worked out pretty well. well enough to perform surgury on it is good for me. might not always be succesful though. the heart is a muscle that pumps blood around our bodies. no more. doesnt have anything to do with corruption. i've met quite a few christians and i can say pretty easily theyre evil people and i have more morals than all of them. where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute? im getting sick of waiting for my food at 2 am when i finish work. your last post seemed a little more christian. we dont need to know about any information from the bible. since its a first offence lets just pretend you didnt quote the bible. it has no place here. unless it comes from the writings of our profit, bobby. but yeah you didnt really use it as an arguement..

Im pretty sure the boat i have sitting my by back yard has enough room to hold the variety of animals kept at most zoos. did noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world? kangaroos arnt very good swimmers. even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution. just over a longer period of time adaptation comes in aswell.

even if the bible says so, i dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it. even if all the ice in the poles was to melt, aswell as glaciers. there wouldnt be enough water to flood the earth. clouds come from moisture from water evaporating from the earths surface so thats not going to make a very big contribution… an alternative would be it magically appeared. i think the link between global warming and the number of pirates is more believable.

there might be a variance of 40,000 years on carbon dating, but that is a marginal error that is still greater than the supposed age of the universe.
hasnt the bible changed from several times? one of the last times to accomidate the existance of dinosours? even with an error of 40,000 years carbon dating sets them back… say… millions of years ago.

as with the 7 day creation… im not going to go there. the Flying Spaghetti Monster could do it in 6. with ease.

i think apart from the human conscience, science has the brain worked out pretty well. well enough to perform surgury on it is good for me. might not always be succesful though. the heart is a muscle that pumps blood around our bodies. no more. doesnt have anything to do with corruption. i’ve met quite a few christians and i can say pretty easily theyre evil people and i have more morals than all of them.

where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute? im getting sick of waiting for my food at 2 am when i finish work. your last post seemed a little more christian. we dont need to know about any information from the bible.

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-425373 MrMiami Sun, 04 May 2008 05:12:20 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-425373 @Cannibal: . Your insults are duly noted as a testament to you character. . BTW there are three theories on why airplanes fly; circulation, mass flow rate, and pressure-vaccuum theories. They are only theories and no really knows why planes fly but none of those theories include angels. . If your angel theory of flight did exist then I am confident that a feather would be stuck up your anal orifice putting you into flight. @Cannibal:
.
Your insults are duly noted as a testament to you character.
.
BTW there are three theories on why airplanes fly; circulation, mass flow rate, and pressure-vaccuum theories. They are only theories and no really knows why planes fly but none of those theories include angels.
.
If your angel theory of flight did exist then I am confident that a feather would be stuck up your anal orifice putting you into flight.

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-423591 MrMiami Sat, 03 May 2008 11:50:53 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-423591 @all: . I got to get better at this. Some quick corrections on review: . 1. At least two breeds needed to be on the ark in order to cause interbreeding. . 2. 7 day creation clarification. If humans can get a burger in one minute and eye glasses in an hour why can't a God create a universe in 7 days? Don't forget he is outside of his creation at the instant of creation. His spirit enter the Earth in the beginning but he, himself, did enter the time domain until he walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam. It he is outside space-time then time really has no relevance. When looking at the Fish bowl from outside the world inside seems pretty small. @all:
.
I got to get better at this. Some quick corrections on review:
.
1. At least two breeds needed to be on the ark in order to cause interbreeding.
.
2. 7 day creation clarification. If humans can get a burger in one minute and eye glasses in an hour why can’t a God create a universe in 7 days? Don’t forget he is outside of his creation at the instant of creation. His spirit enter the Earth in the beginning but he, himself, did enter the time domain until he walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam. It he is outside space-time then time really has no relevance. When looking at the Fish bowl from outside the world inside seems pretty small.

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-423544 MrMiami Sat, 03 May 2008 11:29:55 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-423544 The trouble with Christianity or any religion is its believers are at various stages of maturity in understanding the faith. As an outcome they make incorrect comments based on incomplete understandings. Common misunderstandings in Christianity include MATT 7:1; Judge Not yet ye be Judged. Some Christians actually believe they cannot judge based on this verse. The true understanding is the complete context of Matt 7 is man cannot condemn because that is God's exclusive right. However, each man must make himself right in order to judge between right and wrong conduct. Other common misunderstandings include 'turning the other cheek' and capital punishment. To answer some of your questions, I'll present a Christian view: . Noah's ark. Two of every animal on one boat? The Bible states that only land animals were taken on board. Fish were not. Christians also believe that only one breed of each species was brought on the ark. Over time there no transpecies mutations only interbredding that lead to the large variation in horses, cattle, dogs, birds, etc... The physical dimensions of the ark are in the Bible and it is large enough to carry feed and more animals than found in most zoos. . Is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the Earth? Christians, for one, believe that the climate was different during the days of Noah. They believe a thick cloud cover enveloped the Earth in the early times. There was some climatic, solar, or planetary event that caused the cloud cover to disipate in the form of rain and contributed to the flooding. The collateral effect was also to shorten the human life span due to the aging effects of solar radiation. The Bible also remarks that the Earth itself opened up and water welled up out of the ground too. . And the 7 days for creation? The Christian doctrine is that the Universe's creation was in 7 days. Christian believers possess a wide variation on this theme. Fundamentalist typically remark that a day is 24 hrs and it took tooks days. Afterall, we are talking about a God. More relaxed thoughts consider a host of things. Science has clearly proven that the largest object is 10 to the plus 40th meters and the smallest is 10 to the minus 33 meters. These are limitations of boundaries on the physical universe. It is perfectly ordered and indeterminant. Hence, naturally there is no such thing as infinity in addition to there is no randomness either. The process of creation could have been 'programatic' development or evolutionary development. Some Intelligent Design proponents suggests that God wrote the 'computer code' in 6 days and executed it then rested. As the code ran it assembled the natural and God 'tweaked' the code from time-to-time. This view is consistent with many scientific findings. . Some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that. The Christian view is one that dinosaurs and humans coexisted at one point. The Bible makes reference to two instances of large beast. It also makes references to giant humanoid life forms called the Nephylum. In part the Nephylum is why the great flood happened. Carbon dating has enormous errors in it of plus or minus 40,000 years too. Also science has proven that light is slowing down and physicists believe that light was far more quicker in the early universe. So if one is basing the age of the universe on the speed of light being constant then enormous errors could occur in computing the age of the universe causing one to think it is older than it is. . Why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? The Bible account of creation indicates that the Earth was created BEFORE the rest of the universe because the Earth and the universe was design for human occupation. The Bible indiciates that Humans cannot see the largest or the smallest things, that the universe is made of nothing, and that Christ himself personally holds it together. Science has shown that in terms of orders of magnitude the Earth is located smack dabb in the center. Humans are at 10 to the zero meters and the Earth is at about 10 to the plus four meters. I spoke of the smallest and the largest already. Christians also believe that God exists outside space-time eventhough he is an active participant in space-time. Thus, if one is outside the fish bowl from that perspective it is not that grand of a place. . Regarding the human conscience, science has struggled with what it defines as the mind-brain problem for eons. The closest science can come to this issue is the order and complexity of the brain. On a good day the closest a soft science, Psychology, can get to understanding the mind is so negligable that it is not worth mentioning. The mind is largely not understood. However, the best theory on the brain mechanics I can discern is the Holographic brain. Biblically, a human embodiment is composed of several spiritual elements; an image, a soul, and a metaphorical or analoguos heart. Christians believe that the mind and the heart are linked based on scriptures as usual. The Bible indicates that the Heart is so corrupted that once a human allows the Holy Spirit to enter the body the heart is cast out and a new one is given. The battle is for the human soul and in the end the Anti-christ goes to the extent of placing his image in humans embodiments who already have corrupted hearts linked to thier minds. God basically goes nuts over this and essentially raises hell. The trouble with Christianity or any religion is its believers are at various stages of maturity in understanding the faith. As an outcome they make incorrect comments based on incomplete understandings. Common misunderstandings in Christianity include MATT 7:1; Judge Not yet ye be Judged. Some Christians actually believe they cannot judge based on this verse. The true understanding is the complete context of Matt 7 is man cannot condemn because that is God’s exclusive right. However, each man must make himself right in order to judge between right and wrong conduct. Other common misunderstandings include ‘turning the other cheek’ and capital punishment. To answer some of your questions, I’ll present a Christian view:
.
Noah’s ark. Two of every animal on one boat? The Bible states that only land animals were taken on board. Fish were not. Christians also believe that only one breed of each species was brought on the ark. Over time there no transpecies mutations only interbredding that lead to the large variation in horses, cattle, dogs, birds, etc… The physical dimensions of the ark are in the Bible and it is large enough to carry feed and more animals than found in most zoos.
.
Is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the Earth? Christians, for one, believe that the climate was different during the days of Noah. They believe a thick cloud cover enveloped the Earth in the early times. There was some climatic, solar, or planetary event that caused the cloud cover to disipate in the form of rain and contributed to the flooding. The collateral effect was also to shorten the human life span due to the aging effects of solar radiation. The Bible also remarks that the Earth itself opened up and water welled up out of the ground too.
.
And the 7 days for creation? The Christian doctrine is that the Universe’s creation was in 7 days. Christian believers possess a wide variation on this theme. Fundamentalist typically remark that a day is 24 hrs and it took tooks days. Afterall, we are talking about a God. More relaxed thoughts consider a host of things. Science has clearly proven that the largest object is 10 to the plus 40th meters and the smallest is 10 to the minus 33 meters. These are limitations of boundaries on the physical universe. It is perfectly ordered and indeterminant. Hence, naturally there is no such thing as infinity in addition to there is no randomness either. The process of creation could have been ‘programatic’ development or evolutionary development. Some Intelligent Design proponents suggests that God wrote the ‘computer code’ in 6 days and executed it then rested. As the code ran it assembled the natural and God ‘tweaked’ the code from time-to-time. This view is consistent with many scientific findings.
.
Some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that. The Christian view is one that dinosaurs and humans coexisted at one point. The Bible makes reference to two instances of large beast. It also makes references to giant humanoid life forms called the Nephylum. In part the Nephylum is why the great flood happened. Carbon dating has enormous errors in it of plus or minus 40,000 years too. Also science has proven that light is slowing down and physicists believe that light was far more quicker in the early universe. So if one is basing the age of the universe on the speed of light being constant then enormous errors could occur in computing the age of the universe causing one to think it is older than it is.
.
Why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? The Bible account of creation indicates that the Earth was created BEFORE the rest of the universe because the Earth and the universe was design for human occupation. The Bible indiciates that Humans cannot see the largest or the smallest things, that the universe is made of nothing, and that Christ himself personally holds it together. Science has shown that in terms of orders of magnitude the Earth is located smack dabb in the center. Humans are at 10 to the zero meters and the Earth is at about 10 to the plus four meters. I spoke of the smallest and the largest already. Christians also believe that God exists outside space-time eventhough he is an active participant in space-time. Thus, if one is outside the fish bowl from that perspective it is not that grand of a place.
.
Regarding the human conscience, science has struggled with what it defines as the mind-brain problem for eons. The closest science can come to this issue is the order and complexity of the brain. On a good day the closest a soft science, Psychology, can get to understanding the mind is so negligable that it is not worth mentioning. The mind is largely not understood. However, the best theory on the brain mechanics I can discern is the Holographic brain. Biblically, a human embodiment is composed of several spiritual elements; an image, a soul, and a metaphorical or analoguos heart. Christians believe that the mind and the heart are linked based on scriptures as usual. The Bible indicates that the Heart is so corrupted that once a human allows the Holy Spirit to enter the body the heart is cast out and a new one is given. The battle is for the human soul and in the end the Anti-christ goes to the extent of placing his image in humans embodiments who already have corrupted hearts linked to thier minds. God basically goes nuts over this and essentially raises hell.

]]> By: Cannibal http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-422641 Cannibal Sat, 03 May 2008 01:15:15 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-422641 MrMiami, we are glad you are no longer an areospace engineer. Unfortunatley in this culture we no longer believe ariplanes fly becuse angels are carrying them on their wings. Of course, everything is debatable, but we have yet to find a single angel feather stuck in the jet engine. MrMiami, we are glad you are no longer an areospace engineer. Unfortunatley in this culture we no longer believe ariplanes fly becuse angels are carrying them on their wings. Of course, everything is debatable, but we have yet to find a single angel feather stuck in the jet engine.

]]> By: davehead http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-421715 davehead Fri, 02 May 2008 16:04:30 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-421715 i would have alot to write about it i had the patience to write so much and know where to begin.. i dont know how you do it. I do believe that existance is random and has no place for things such as fate, kama and all those sorts of superstition. I dont think i need to explain my view on miracles. Although evolution seems a bit far fetched i think is the best answer i have heard of so far. Im sure most of us understand that its entirely possible that can be scrapped and a new theory can take its place. one event i cant seem to embrace is the big bang. in my view for there to be a big bang there needs to be something there in the first place. maybe we are living in a universe that has always existed and doesnt have a starting point. the large explosion at the so called begining may have been just a large star big enough that we cannot comprehend. the reason i am so repulsed by the bible is that there is some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that... although i dont remember alot of it i had read parts of the bible during primary school in riligious instructions and alot of it just seemed like fairy tails. for example.. noahs ark. 2 of every animal on one boat? is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the earth? and the 7 days of creation... this might sound like a petty arguement but with the size of the unirverse, the amount of stars that are out there and all the other possible planets, why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? i dont think i remember the rest of the universe even being included. being 2 in the morning right now im a little tired and dont have concentration to word things properly but im sure you get my point. i believe science tries to give us answers and doesnt mind being proven wrong. science may not be able to explain the human concience but it may in time. just as we were able to discover what each section of the brain was responsible for. got distracted and now ive forgotten what i was on about.. i would have alot to write about it i had the patience to write so much and know where to begin.. i dont know how you do it. I do believe that existance is random and has no place for things such as fate, kama and all those sorts of superstition. I dont think i need to explain my view on miracles. Although evolution seems a bit far fetched i think is the best answer i have heard of so far. Im sure most of us understand that its entirely possible that can be scrapped and a new theory can take its place.

one event i cant seem to embrace is the big bang. in my view for there to be a big bang there needs to be something there in the first place. maybe we are living in a universe that has always existed and doesnt have a starting point. the large explosion at the so called begining may have been just a large star big enough that we cannot comprehend.

the reason i am so repulsed by the bible is that there is some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that… although i dont remember alot of it i had read parts of the bible during primary school in riligious instructions and alot of it just seemed like fairy tails. for example.. noahs ark. 2 of every animal on one boat? is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the earth? and the 7 days of creation… this might sound like a petty arguement but with the size of the unirverse, the amount of stars that are out there and all the other possible planets, why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? i dont think i remember the rest of the universe even being included. being 2 in the morning right now im a little tired and dont have concentration to word things properly but im sure you get my point. i believe science tries to give us answers and doesnt mind being proven wrong.

science may not be able to explain the human concience but it may in time. just as we were able to discover what each section of the brain was responsible for. got distracted and now ive forgotten what i was on about..

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-420375 MrMiami Fri, 02 May 2008 04:16:05 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-420375 @all: . I type these responses late at night often and sometimes confound my sentences. I need to clarify a statement. . Under the Islam comparison: 2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish . Should read: 2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims; namely the Christians and the Jewish. @all:
.
I type these responses late at night often and sometimes confound my sentences. I need to clarify a statement.
.
Under the Islam comparison:
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish
.
Should read:
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims; namely the Christians and the Jewish.

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-420176 MrMiami Fri, 02 May 2008 02:00:44 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-420176 @Davehead: . It is true I have studied these topics and more. I prefer to keep my faith closely held at this time. . My views of the universe's creation process are emerging as I learn more. My original career was in Aerospace Engineering which has influenced my understanding tremendously. Knowing what I know after nearly 400 quarter hours of education of which I have extensive mathematics training and physics coursework there are several things I cannot embrace. They are: . 1. There is no such thing as true randomness. It amazes me how many people believe the natural 'order' is to be 'random'. Those two conditions are mutually exclusive of each other! They cannot coexist except in the minds of humans. . 2. I cannot embrace the classic sense of a miracle which centers on a 'god' acting out of his sovereignty to do something that appears unnatural or magic - random. In time, even Biblical miracles are revealed to humans and a science or order to the event becomes understood. In the Biblical view, miracles are never the point either. They are attention getters to make a point. . 3. I cannot embrace the most of the 'science' of evolution. A vast majority of the material is simply is not science. Both Darwin, Dawkins, and Sagan are plagued by the same problem. They allow their cosmological views to influence their sense of science. In fact, Sagan was known to go on TV and make shocking remarks about humanity with bogus science. Sci-fi writer, Michael Crichton, wrote an interesting commentary called 'Aliens Cause Global Warming' which highlights some of the problems. . The creation process may be something far different than evolution and even the creationist view of a potter at work. The natural process of creation may center on quantum discovery and string theory concepts. The process 'ingredients' may be light and information. . What I am about to describe sounds like the 'Holodeck' in 'Star Trek: Voyager' but was understood long before the TV show fantasized about this technology. The natural process could be this notion of 'compactness' in which light waves come together to form a particle. Hence, the particle-wave theory of light. Information is then added that causes the particle to form in specific ways as it becomes more complex during a natural assembly process through the orders of magnitude (sub-atomic, atomic, mesophysical, molecular, physical, etc..). Additional information is then forward staged or buffered in a register of sorts in the form of DNA to facilitate the creation of life. Intelligent molecular machines (made of protiens and amino acids) known as nano-probes go to the DNA gather instructions then endow biological life. Hence, human natural existence may only be the execution of this process as through a quantum computer is executing some algorythm. . While this explains the natural it does not explain the presence of a conscience or the human spirit. Also science cannot explain where the information comes from in the DNA? So the points on origin are not of science but a cosmological, theological, and philosophical discussion. . In short, high school science gets it very wrong when they call evolution a science! . Humans have three basic questions they need to answer during their lives and they are not science questions: 1. Where do I come from? 2. Why do I exist? 3. What happens when I die? . Evolution attempts to answer with a false sense of science. 1. Where do I come from? Chemical and biological processes. 2. Why do I exist? It happened out of random chance 3. What happens when I die? decompose to inert matter . The Bible attempts to answer with a revelation. 1. Where do I come from? You were known before the foundations of time and placed into an embodiment by a patient and loving God. 2. Why do I exist? The purpose of humans is to worship a God who desires to be among humans. 3. What happens when I die? The body and spirit are separated for the purpose of judgement. Those who are saints are retunred to a new embodiment made perfect and prepared for entry into New Jerusalem. Those who rejected God are condemned. You don't him then he does not want you. . For reflective purposes I'll compare this to Islam: 1. Where do I come from? No explanation other than created by Allah. The Koran creation account speaks of the Earth on the back of a gallactic turtle. 2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish. 3. What happens when I die? Allah decides who gets into Mulsim Utopia. The only assured way is to be a martyr or esentially commit suicide. Coincidentally, in Christianity suicide is a unforegivable sin - it is an assured way to get in to hell or the Hotel California (a song about living a material life then dying and going to hell). . BTW Sura 112 in the Koran is direct denial of John 3:16 in the Bible. It cracks me up to listen to people argue that Islam and Christianity are nearly the same since they came from Abraham. There are no closest points of approach. The two are diametrically opposite on EVERY single point they make. Abraham's mention is only token in Islam and his mother Ter was a moon worshipper and the source for the Crescent a top the mosque. Abraham for no real explanation rejected all the Gods being worshipped and worshipped only one God - the Judeo\Christian God. . Anyhow, the point being in all this is that science deals with complexity and order. If that alone is taught then I don't see a problem. Evolution is clearly a cosmological revelation and has no place in the public schools. @Davehead:
.
It is true I have studied these topics and more. I prefer to keep my faith closely held at this time.
.
My views of the universe’s creation process are emerging as I learn more. My original career was in Aerospace Engineering which has influenced my understanding tremendously. Knowing what I know after nearly 400 quarter hours of education of which I have extensive mathematics training and physics coursework there are several things I cannot embrace. They are:
.
1. There is no such thing as true randomness. It amazes me how many people believe the natural ‘order’ is to be ‘random’. Those two conditions are mutually exclusive of each other! They cannot coexist except in the minds of humans.
.
2. I cannot embrace the classic sense of a miracle which centers on a ‘god’ acting out of his sovereignty to do something that appears unnatural or magic - random. In time, even Biblical miracles are revealed to humans and a science or order to the event becomes understood. In the Biblical view, miracles are never the point either. They are attention getters to make a point.
.
3. I cannot embrace the most of the ’science’ of evolution. A vast majority of the material is simply is not science. Both Darwin, Dawkins, and Sagan are plagued by the same problem. They allow their cosmological views to influence their sense of science. In fact, Sagan was known to go on TV and make shocking remarks about humanity with bogus science. Sci-fi writer, Michael Crichton, wrote an interesting commentary called ‘Aliens Cause Global Warming’ which highlights some of the problems.
.
The creation process may be something far different than evolution and even the creationist view of a potter at work. The natural process of creation may center on quantum discovery and string theory concepts. The process ‘ingredients’ may be light and information.
.
What I am about to describe sounds like the ‘Holodeck’ in ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ but was understood long before the TV show fantasized about this technology. The natural process could be this notion of ‘compactness’ in which light waves come together to form a particle. Hence, the particle-wave theory of light. Information is then added that causes the particle to form in specific ways as it becomes more complex during a natural assembly process through the orders of magnitude (sub-atomic, atomic, mesophysical, molecular, physical, etc..). Additional information is then forward staged or buffered in a register of sorts in the form of DNA to facilitate the creation of life. Intelligent molecular machines (made of protiens and amino acids) known as nano-probes go to the DNA gather instructions then endow biological life. Hence, human natural existence may only be the execution of this process as through a quantum computer is executing some algorythm.
.
While this explains the natural it does not explain the presence of a conscience or the human spirit. Also science cannot explain where the information comes from in the DNA? So the points on origin are not of science but a cosmological, theological, and philosophical discussion.
.
In short, high school science gets it very wrong when they call evolution a science!
.
Humans have three basic questions they need to answer during their lives and they are not science questions:
1. Where do I come from?
2. Why do I exist?
3. What happens when I die?
.
Evolution attempts to answer with a false sense of science.
1. Where do I come from? Chemical and biological processes.
2. Why do I exist? It happened out of random chance
3. What happens when I die? decompose to inert matter
.
The Bible attempts to answer with a revelation.
1. Where do I come from? You were known before the foundations of time and placed into an embodiment by a patient and loving God.
2. Why do I exist? The purpose of humans is to worship a God who desires to be among humans.
3. What happens when I die? The body and spirit are separated for the purpose of judgement. Those who are saints are retunred to a new embodiment made perfect and prepared for entry into New Jerusalem. Those who rejected God are condemned. You don’t him then he does not want you.
.
For reflective purposes I’ll compare this to Islam:
1. Where do I come from? No explanation other than created by Allah. The Koran creation account speaks of the Earth on the back of a gallactic turtle.
2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish.
3. What happens when I die? Allah decides who gets into Mulsim Utopia. The only assured way is to be a martyr or esentially commit suicide. Coincidentally, in Christianity suicide is a unforegivable sin - it is an assured way to get in to hell or the Hotel California (a song about living a material life then dying and going to hell).
.
BTW Sura 112 in the Koran is direct denial of John 3:16 in the Bible. It cracks me up to listen to people argue that Islam and Christianity are nearly the same since they came from Abraham. There are no closest points of approach. The two are diametrically opposite on EVERY single point they make. Abraham’s mention is only token in Islam and his mother Ter was a moon worshipper and the source for the Crescent a top the mosque. Abraham for no real explanation rejected all the Gods being worshipped and worshipped only one God - the Judeo\Christian God.
.
Anyhow, the point being in all this is that science deals with complexity and order. If that alone is taught then I don’t see a problem. Evolution is clearly a cosmological revelation and has no place in the public schools.

]]> By: davehead http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-415403 davehead Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:03:11 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-415403 not trying to argue or be a dick now... youve studied way to much to arguments over the internet, so im guessing you have other reasons for studying this topic? if you have one what is your religion? or what are your beleifs? seems youve argued against points people have made with material you have read but havnt givin your own point of view. so... what are your beliefs on how the universe was created? i have to say sorry, after reading back i realised you havnt been throwing bible quotes as alot of people do. not trying to argue or be a dick now… youve studied way to much to arguments over the internet, so im guessing you have other reasons for studying this topic? if you have one what is your religion? or what are your beleifs? seems youve argued against points people have made with material you have read but havnt givin your own point of view. so… what are your beliefs on how the universe was created?

i have to say sorry, after reading back i realised you havnt been throwing bible quotes as alot of people do.

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-413047 MrMiami Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:21:18 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-413047 @davehead: . Stop referring to 'my religion' I never once stated anything about 'my religion'. Just because I have knowledge and can argue from various positions does not reveal who I am. It only reveals that I have an understanding. It is because of my understanding that I have choosen something that is unknown to you. . I have not thrown back Bible verses. So get off your high horse! . We live in a polar universe; off or on, black or white, good or evil, male or female, left or right, up or down, hot or cold, God or no God. One cannot deny something if its alternative exists. It an old Greek philosophical argument. . In the Christian worldview, the Bible was written over 2000 years and is a anthrology of 66 books penned by 44 different scribes. The Christians believe that it was inspired by the Holy spirit (coincidentally, there is an evil spirit too) in order to maintain a consistent message. In otherwords, humans wrote it down who were inspired by the Holy Spirit and God himself authored it. There is no single source of the Bible other than God. It was assembled from principally three different document sets. Two are dated around 1000 AD were used to organize the King James Version of the Bible. The other document set was discovered later, 1947, and was written at the time of Christ by the Qumran. The 1947 document discovery corroborated the earlier document discoveries validating the King James version of the Bible as an accurate account. Coincidentally, the document set written at the time of Christ is the Dead Sea Scrolls and was discovered by a nomadic sheppard searching for his lost sheep the day the U.N. voted to form the nation of Israel, May 14th, 1947. . Christ is a lamb, church leaders are sheppards, and believers are sheep. Is it odd that a sheppard is searching for his lost sheep and finds the Dead Sea Scrolls at the same time Israel is formed as prophetized? It is a little spooky to me. . By the way, the in the Christian Worldview God's fingerprints are all over creation. In order to see this evidence you'll need to study what the Bible is saying and have a firm graspof science. However, you seem so repulsed by the Bible that you'll never known what it truly says. I also doubt you'll ever have a honest understanding of science either. So you'll probably believe whatever Star Trek fantasizes or so nut like Micheal Schermer who follies with people who will believe just about anything. @davehead:
.
Stop referring to ‘my religion’ I never once stated anything about ‘my religion’. Just because I have knowledge and can argue from various positions does not reveal who I am. It only reveals that I have an understanding. It is because of my understanding that I have choosen something that is unknown to you.
.
I have not thrown back Bible verses. So get off your high horse!
.
We live in a polar universe; off or on, black or white, good or evil, male or female, left or right, up or down, hot or cold, God or no God. One cannot deny something if its alternative exists. It an old Greek philosophical argument.
.
In the Christian worldview, the Bible was written over 2000 years and is a anthrology of 66 books penned by 44 different scribes. The Christians believe that it was inspired by the Holy spirit (coincidentally, there is an evil spirit too) in order to maintain a consistent message. In otherwords, humans wrote it down who were inspired by the Holy Spirit and God himself authored it. There is no single source of the Bible other than God. It was assembled from principally three different document sets. Two are dated around 1000 AD were used to organize the King James Version of the Bible. The other document set was discovered later, 1947, and was written at the time of Christ by the Qumran. The 1947 document discovery corroborated the earlier document discoveries validating the King James version of the Bible as an accurate account. Coincidentally, the document set written at the time of Christ is the Dead Sea Scrolls and was discovered by a nomadic sheppard searching for his lost sheep the day the U.N. voted to form the nation of Israel, May 14th, 1947.
.
Christ is a lamb, church leaders are sheppards, and believers are sheep. Is it odd that a sheppard is searching for his lost sheep and finds the Dead Sea Scrolls at the same time Israel is formed as prophetized? It is a little spooky to me.
.
By the way, the in the Christian Worldview God’s fingerprints are all over creation. In order to see this evidence you’ll need to study what the Bible is saying and have a firm graspof science. However, you seem so repulsed by the Bible that you’ll never known what it truly says. I also doubt you’ll ever have a honest understanding of science either. So you’ll probably believe whatever Star Trek fantasizes or so nut like Micheal Schermer who follies with people who will believe just about anything.

]]> By: davehead http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-401446 davehead Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:33:26 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-401446 how can you tell us that becuase we deny god there must be something to deny? your arguements are seriously lacking and i dont want to waste my time when all i will have thrown back is content taken from the bible which just happens to be the only unstable evidence your religion has. forget about this holy spirit for a minute and really think about where the bible has come from, who wrote it and what time of time frame it would have been made up over. think back to playing chinese whispers in school. unfortunatly delusion is wide spread in our species. how can you tell us that becuase we deny god there must be something to deny? your arguements are seriously lacking and i dont want to waste my time when all i will have thrown back is content taken from the bible which just happens to be the only unstable evidence your religion has. forget about this holy spirit for a minute and really think about where the bible has come from, who wrote it and what time of time frame it would have been made up over. think back to playing chinese whispers in school. unfortunatly delusion is wide spread in our species.

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-393824 MrMiami Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:22:56 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-393824 @DavidSSS: . You are exactly right one problem is choice. Another problem is the science. . IRT choice: You are viewing the situation through your choice lense insisting that your choice is right and want to limit other choices. For what ever reasons you made a choice and the presence of another choice challenges you to rethink your current position. Evolution is masquerading as a science. It is not a science or a theory. It is a cosmological revelation from its inception. Evolution is an alternative to other thoughts, principally Christianity. Evolution has theories and a science that are used to justify it. Evolution is challenged on its cosmological revelation and it is challenged on its science (its sense of order and complexity). You must be willing to reflect on challenges to your beliefs to either confirm them or deny them. If you cannot do that then your understanding has no substance. . IRT the science: People make up thier science to fit their strange beliefs. It is certainly the case with Global Warming and so far it is the case with evolution. The very underpinnings of evolution are not even remotely true and honest science has shown this too many times. So all the higher level arguments are senseless because the foundation has been washed out. I cringe at these high school teachers who teach crap science and listen to them espouse their strange personal views as some sort of naturalistic axiom. Folks I cannot say this enough science only deal with complexity and order vice randomness. . What needs to happen is ethics and integrity needs to return to science. Teachers need to teach on the basis of complexity and order. A humanitarian course needs to teach ideologies like Evolution, Christianity, buddism, Islam, etc... In fact, a comparative humanities course would do wonders in solving this problem. But the greatest thing we need to do is restore science to its prestine state untouched by evolution or other doctrines. . Religious people share their understanding not much different than evolutionist insist on their belief. It seems all humans need a God and part of a life's adventure is to discover who is that God. Even atheist have a God that is a NULL. They defend a NULL with ferocity despite claiming they have nothing to defend. But attack thier defensive points, mainly evolution, and they go beserk. . In the end, humans cannot get away from "The God Issue". It is clearly part of our make up. Some people defend God and other people deny God. This only tells me that there is something to deny and it must be God. So which side of God are you on? @DavidSSS:
.
You are exactly right one problem is choice. Another problem is the science.
.
IRT choice: You are viewing the situation through your choice lense insisting that your choice is right and want to limit other choices. For what ever reasons you made a choice and the presence of another choice challenges you to rethink your current position. Evolution is masquerading as a science. It is not a science or a theory. It is a cosmological revelation from its inception. Evolution is an alternative to other thoughts, principally Christianity. Evolution has theories and a science that are used to justify it. Evolution is challenged on its cosmological revelation and it is challenged on its science (its sense of order and complexity). You must be willing to reflect on challenges to your beliefs to either confirm them or deny them. If you cannot do that then your understanding has no substance.
.
IRT the science: People make up thier science to fit their strange beliefs. It is certainly the case with Global Warming and so far it is the case with evolution. The very underpinnings of evolution are not even remotely true and honest science has shown this too many times. So all the higher level arguments are senseless because the foundation has been washed out. I cringe at these high school teachers who teach crap science and listen to them espouse their strange personal views as some sort of naturalistic axiom. Folks I cannot say this enough science only deal with complexity and order vice randomness.
.
What needs to happen is ethics and integrity needs to return to science. Teachers need to teach on the basis of complexity and order. A humanitarian course needs to teach ideologies like Evolution, Christianity, buddism, Islam, etc… In fact, a comparative humanities course would do wonders in solving this problem. But the greatest thing we need to do is restore science to its prestine state untouched by evolution or other doctrines.
.
Religious people share their understanding not much different than evolutionist insist on their belief. It seems all humans need a God and part of a life’s adventure is to discover who is that God. Even atheist have a God that is a NULL. They defend a NULL with ferocity despite claiming they have nothing to defend. But attack thier defensive points, mainly evolution, and they go beserk.
.
In the end, humans cannot get away from “The God Issue”. It is clearly part of our make up. Some people defend God and other people deny God. This only tells me that there is something to deny and it must be God. So which side of God are you on?

]]> By: DavidSSS http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-392822 DavidSSS Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:38:10 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-392822 What really gets me is that they want to teach ID as science. OK, sure, lets put ID in a science class. If it is a serious science class then ID would have to be treated as a hypothesis as there is no proof. Evolution, on the other hand, can be taught as a theory as there is proof. Why don't they just teach ID in theology, it is a religious, or faith based, hypothesis, it belongs in religious instruction or theology, not science. ID also happens to be a reaction of the Christian Churches to evolution blowing their creation myth out of the water. It is a hypothesis tailored to trying to hold back the tide of evidence. Furthermore, it is treated as a joke everywhere but in the USA. The other thing is why do religious people want to convince others of their beliefs. You believe in your god and hypotheses about creation and the like, fine. But why do you have to try and convince me? I'm not running around trying to convince religious people not to believe in god, I assume it is their choice. Why can't you leave me to my choice. What is your problem? DS What really gets me is that they want to teach ID as science. OK, sure, lets put ID in a science class. If it is a serious science class then ID would have to be treated as a hypothesis as there is no proof. Evolution, on the other hand, can be taught as a theory as there is proof. Why don’t they just teach ID in theology, it is a religious, or faith based, hypothesis, it belongs in religious instruction or theology, not science. ID also happens to be a reaction of the Christian Churches to evolution blowing their creation myth out of the water. It is a hypothesis tailored to trying to hold back the tide of evidence. Furthermore, it is treated as a joke everywhere but in the USA.

The other thing is why do religious people want to convince others of their beliefs. You believe in your god and hypotheses about creation and the like, fine. But why do you have to try and convince me? I’m not running around trying to convince religious people not to believe in god, I assume it is their choice. Why can’t you leave me to my choice. What is your problem?

DS

]]> By: MrMiami http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-388005 MrMiami Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:47:16 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-388005 @cina murtad . In intelligent Design the designer is acknowledged by both Christian's and secularist. The Secularists such as Physicists Paul Davis acknowledge that the evidence for design is overwhelming and attribute the design to 'a designer'. The Christians reconcile the evidence of design found in science with the scriptures claiming that the identity of the designer is the Judeo/Christian God. So the Chrsitians just take the understanding a bit farther than the secularist who acknowledge the evidence of design. Granted not all secularists understand the design notion and many think it is simply a 'christian' thing. . @Simon . I think you made a very Christian point here. You are really arrogant and prideful to think that a God is a possession of a human. If I had a God, he is not mine. I would be his. I think that is the point of a God. . @Bonzo . There are a lot of Christians tired of the Jewish not getting the message. . @Jason . You asked, "Why would a Creator create a world and encourage life and also create a world that hides all marks of and ID?" . In the Christian worldview, God does not hide but insteads enjoys the thrill of discovery. Creation is ordered in a way to allow humans to find the 'easter eggs'. He designed in the character of men and women different kinds of curiosity. Men are designed to 'wild at heart' and become adventurous, explorers, scientist, engineers, etc... and women were designed to be adventurous in other ways. God's fingerprints are said to be all over creation. There are entire works on this topic. . ID does not predict anything. ID is a school of rational thought that houses numerous theories. In ID, God is often called the watchmaker. Evolution is one theory under an umbrella of theories known as the Blind Watchmaker Theories. The difference between the two is not only is there a God or not but the science is different bwtween the two. . @Cinna . I disagree. In fact, review of the Theologians who worked on the Dead Seascrolls would disagree with you too. . @Googie . Evolution is counter to the science the Designer put in place. Evolution relies on a couple of axioms that are untrue. First, true randomness does not exist in this universe at all. There is no mathematical formula, the language of science, that can model it. Probability cannot be random because it is a limited set of outcomes with recurring patterns that are characterized by a mathematical formula. Second, there is no evidence of vertical or transpecies mutations. For hundreds of years dogs have been bred all kinds of ways and all we have are dogs, a lot of kinds of dogs. There has been no genetic drift, no random actions, and no adaptation causing dogs to become another species. . Science deals with complexity and order only. Thoughts of origin are not science. Hence, Darwin's 'Origin of a Species' is not a science but instead an attempt to use science in order to develop a cosmological revelation that you are the result of random action. The counter view to this is that you were designed and created for a purpose. Life in this counter view is defined as an embodiment and a spirit. There is an image that was placed into your embodiment and calls out to your conscience. Life under evolution is defined as a series of biological and chemical processes. Evolution as a cosmological revelation cannot account for your self-awareness and conscience. . I highly encourage you to seek out understanding of these things in greater detail. @cina murtad
.
In intelligent Design the designer is acknowledged by both Christian’s and secularist. The Secularists such as Physicists Paul Davis acknowledge that the evidence for design is overwhelming and attribute the design to ‘a designer’. The Christians reconcile the evidence of design found in science with the scriptures claiming that the identity of the designer is the Judeo/Christian God. So the Chrsitians just take the understanding a bit farther than the secularist who acknowledge the evidence of design. Granted not all secularists understand the design notion and many think it is simply a ‘christian’ thing.
.
@Simon
.
I think you made a very Christian point here. You are really arrogant and prideful to think that a God is a possession of a human. If I had a God, he is not mine. I would be his. I think that is the point of a God.
.
@Bonzo
.
There are a lot of Christians tired of the Jewish not getting the message.
.
@Jason
.
You asked, “Why would a Creator create a world and encourage life and also create a world that hides all marks of and ID?”
.
In the Christian worldview, God does not hide but insteads enjoys the thrill of discovery. Creation is ordered in a way to allow humans to find the ‘easter eggs’. He designed in the character of men and women different kinds of curiosity. Men are designed to ‘wild at heart’ and become adventurous, explorers, scientist, engineers, etc… and women were designed to be adventurous in other ways. God’s fingerprints are said to be all over creation. There are entire works on this topic.
.
ID does not predict anything. ID is a school of rational thought that houses numerous theories. In ID, God is often called the watchmaker. Evolution is one theory under an umbrella of theories known as the Blind Watchmaker Theories. The difference between the two is not only is there a God or not but the science is different bwtween the two.
.
@Cinna
.
I disagree. In fact, review of the Theologians who worked on the Dead Seascrolls would disagree with you too.
.
@Googie
.
Evolution is counter to the science the Designer put in place. Evolution relies on a couple of axioms that are untrue. First, true randomness does not exist in this universe at all. There is no mathematical formula, the language of science, that can model it. Probability cannot be random because it is a limited set of outcomes with recurring patterns that are characterized by a mathematical formula. Second, there is no evidence of vertical or transpecies mutations. For hundreds of years dogs have been bred all kinds of ways and all we have are dogs, a lot of kinds of dogs. There has been no genetic drift, no random actions, and no adaptation causing dogs to become another species.
.
Science deals with complexity and order only. Thoughts of origin are not science. Hence, Darwin’s ‘Origin of a Species’ is not a science but instead an attempt to use science in order to develop a cosmological revelation that you are the result of random action. The counter view to this is that you were designed and created for a purpose. Life in this counter view is defined as an embodiment and a spirit. There is an image that was placed into your embodiment and calls out to your conscience. Life under evolution is defined as a series of biological and chemical processes. Evolution as a cosmological revelation cannot account for your self-awareness and conscience.
.
I highly encourage you to seek out understanding of these things in greater detail.

]]> By: gooie http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-371363 gooie Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:29:41 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-371363 My belief in god depends on the definition of "god". If god is merely something that made us, then I dont have a problem with the existence of a "god". Something caused the universe to exist. If the world is the product of "chance", then I can call "chance" my maker, or god. I have a problem with how people picture god and expect god to behave in a certain way, or treating "god" like a being that can feel, see and hear. So if god was defined as an all-powerful, all-good creator, then i dont belive in a god. I fail to understand this argument. Evolution doesnt disprove (or prove) god. Its just a way life has developed. God could have caused evolution. Its could be his intelligent design that the fittest survive. Saying that god made us is more an answer to the question:"who made us?" than "how did we come aboutt?" The theory of evolution has holes in it, but its still a pretty good guess at how we came about, compared to just popping into existence at gods will. My belief in god depends on the definition of “god”. If god is merely something that made us, then I dont have a problem with the existence of a “god”. Something caused the universe to exist. If the world is the product of “chance”, then I can call “chance” my maker, or god. I have a problem with how people picture god and expect god to behave in a certain way, or treating “god” like a being that can feel, see and hear. So if god was defined as an all-powerful, all-good creator, then i dont belive in a god.

I fail to understand this argument. Evolution doesnt disprove (or prove) god. Its just a way life has developed. God could have caused evolution. Its could be his intelligent design that the fittest survive. Saying that god made us is more an answer to the question:”who made us?” than “how did we come aboutt?”

The theory of evolution has holes in it, but its still a pretty good guess at how we came about, compared to just popping into existence at gods will.

]]> By: Cinna http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-341369 Cinna Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:45:28 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/11/30/polk-county.htm#comment-341369 As a theologian who specializes in Biblical translation, I can tell you that the scholarly evidence compiled thus far does nothing to provide evidence for the "truth" of claims within the "scripture", whether it is the Hebrew Scriptures or the "New Testament". In fact, historical and archeological evidence contradict the claims of authorship made within the Bible, and translational errors persist and are the foundation of major Christian doctrines being propogated today. In the end, there is no "proof" or solid factual basis for faith. Consqeuntly, if one has faith in the creation of the world by a deity, the truth of that creation lies only within the mind and emotions of the believer. All the same, having a dual degree in biology, I can say that there are plenty of issues with the supposedly proven theory of evolution. To assume that anything in science is actually proven is just bad science! There is nothing in science that can ever be considered to be a finality. The theory of evolution has issues, but at the moment, it's the best one that we have. That doesn't mean it's true any more than any other religion's creation story is true. As for "separation of church and state", to be really nerdy, I will tell you guys that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, who were the originators of the concept, did not actually intend for religion to be excluded from the public arena. Their intent was to ensure that people could publicly practice whatever religion they wanted, and to make sure that the government didn't exclude Deists, Jews and minority Christian groups from political office. Due to the modern presence of so many various religions, it is absolutely ridiculous for these people in Florida to think it's practical to give fair voice to religious views in a public school. If they are going to teach "Intelligent Design", which is blantantly Christian creationism, then they should give fair voice to the other religious creation stories as well. I'm sure that they aren't remotely willing to do that. Perhaps Christian parents should take the responsibility for child-rearing seriously, as their Bible suggests they should, and teach them about creation at home. As a theologian who specializes in Biblical translation, I can tell you that the scholarly evidence compiled thus far does nothing to provide evidence for the “truth” of claims within the “scripture”, whether it is the Hebrew Scriptures or the “New Testament”. In fact, historical and archeological evidence contradict the claims of authorship made within the Bible, and translational errors persist and are the foundation of major Christian doctrines being propogated today. In the end, there is no “proof” or solid factual basis for faith. Consqeuntly, if one has faith in the creation of the world by a deity, the truth of that creation lies only within the mind and emotions of the believer.

All the same, having a dual degree in biology, I can say that there are plenty of issues with the supposedly proven theory of evolution. To assume that anything in science is actually proven is just bad science! There is nothing in science that can ever be considered to be a finality. The theory of evolution has issues, but at the moment, it’s the best one that we have. That doesn’t mean it’s true any more than any other religion’s creation story is true.

As for “separation of church and state”, to be really nerdy, I will tell you guys that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, who were the originators of the concept, did not actually intend for religion to be excluded from the public arena. Their intent was to ensure that people could publicly practice whatever religion they wanted, and to make sure that the government didn’t exclude Deists, Jews and minority Christian groups from political office.

Due to the modern presence of so many various religions, it is absolutely ridiculous for these people in Florida to think it’s practical to give fair voice to religious views in a public school. If they are going to teach “Intelligent Design”, which is blantantly Christian creationism, then they should give fair voice to the other religious creation stories as well. I’m sure that they aren’t remotely willing to do that. Perhaps Christian parents should take the responsibility for child-rearing seriously, as their Bible suggests they should, and teach them about creation at home.

]]>