191 Responses to “Polk County to include Intelligent Design”

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1. 181 davehead Apr 30th, 2008 at 12:03 am

   not trying to argue or be a dick now… youve studied way to much to arguments over the internet, so im guessing you have other reasons for studying this topic? if you have one what is your religion? or what are your beleifs? seems youve argued against points people have made with material you have read but havnt givin your own point of view. so… what are your beliefs on how the universe was created?

   i have to say sorry, after reading back i realised you havnt been throwing bible quotes as alot of people do.

2. 182 MrMiami May 1st, 2008 at 8:00 pm

   @Davehead:
   .
   It is true I have studied these topics and more. I prefer to keep my faith closely held at this time.
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   My views of the universe’s creation process are emerging as I learn more. My original career was in Aerospace Engineering which has influenced my understanding tremendously. Knowing what I know after nearly 400 quarter hours of education of which I have extensive mathematics training and physics coursework there are several things I cannot embrace. They are:
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   1. There is no such thing as true randomness. It amazes me how many people believe the natural ‘order’ is to be ‘random’. Those two conditions are mutually exclusive of each other! They cannot coexist except in the minds of humans.
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   2. I cannot embrace the classic sense of a miracle which centers on a ‘god’ acting out of his sovereignty to do something that appears unnatural or magic - random. In time, even Biblical miracles are revealed to humans and a science or order to the event becomes understood. In the Biblical view, miracles are never the point either. They are attention getters to make a point.
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   3. I cannot embrace the most of the ’science’ of evolution. A vast majority of the material is simply is not science. Both Darwin, Dawkins, and Sagan are plagued by the same problem. They allow their cosmological views to influence their sense of science. In fact, Sagan was known to go on TV and make shocking remarks about humanity with bogus science. Sci-fi writer, Michael Crichton, wrote an interesting commentary called ‘Aliens Cause Global Warming’ which highlights some of the problems.
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   The creation process may be something far different than evolution and even the creationist view of a potter at work. The natural process of creation may center on quantum discovery and string theory concepts. The process ‘ingredients’ may be light and information.
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   What I am about to describe sounds like the ‘Holodeck’ in ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ but was understood long before the TV show fantasized about this technology. The natural process could be this notion of ‘compactness’ in which light waves come together to form a particle. Hence, the particle-wave theory of light. Information is then added that causes the particle to form in specific ways as it becomes more complex during a natural assembly process through the orders of magnitude (sub-atomic, atomic, mesophysical, molecular, physical, etc..). Additional information is then forward staged or buffered in a register of sorts in the form of DNA to facilitate the creation of life. Intelligent molecular machines (made of protiens and amino acids) known as nano-probes go to the DNA gather instructions then endow biological life. Hence, human natural existence may only be the execution of this process as through a quantum computer is executing some algorythm.
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   While this explains the natural it does not explain the presence of a conscience or the human spirit. Also science cannot explain where the information comes from in the DNA? So the points on origin are not of science but a cosmological, theological, and philosophical discussion.
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   In short, high school science gets it very wrong when they call evolution a science!
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   Humans have three basic questions they need to answer during their lives and they are not science questions:
   1. Where do I come from?
   2. Why do I exist?
   3. What happens when I die?
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   Evolution attempts to answer with a false sense of science.
   1. Where do I come from? Chemical and biological processes.
   2. Why do I exist? It happened out of random chance
   3. What happens when I die? decompose to inert matter
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   The Bible attempts to answer with a revelation.
   1. Where do I come from? You were known before the foundations of time and placed into an embodiment by a patient and loving God.
   2. Why do I exist? The purpose of humans is to worship a God who desires to be among humans.
   3. What happens when I die? The body and spirit are separated for the purpose of judgement. Those who are saints are retunred to a new embodiment made perfect and prepared for entry into New Jerusalem. Those who rejected God are condemned. You don’t him then he does not want you.
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   For reflective purposes I’ll compare this to Islam:
   1. Where do I come from? No explanation other than created by Allah. The Koran creation account speaks of the Earth on the back of a gallactic turtle.
   2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish.
   3. What happens when I die? Allah decides who gets into Mulsim Utopia. The only assured way is to be a martyr or esentially commit suicide. Coincidentally, in Christianity suicide is a unforegivable sin - it is an assured way to get in to hell or the Hotel California (a song about living a material life then dying and going to hell).
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   BTW Sura 112 in the Koran is direct denial of John 3:16 in the Bible. It cracks me up to listen to people argue that Islam and Christianity are nearly the same since they came from Abraham. There are no closest points of approach. The two are diametrically opposite on EVERY single point they make. Abraham’s mention is only token in Islam and his mother Ter was a moon worshipper and the source for the Crescent a top the mosque. Abraham for no real explanation rejected all the Gods being worshipped and worshipped only one God - the Judeo\Christian God.
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   Anyhow, the point being in all this is that science deals with complexity and order. If that alone is taught then I don’t see a problem. Evolution is clearly a cosmological revelation and has no place in the public schools.

3. 183 MrMiami May 1st, 2008 at 10:16 pm

   @all:
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   I type these responses late at night often and sometimes confound my sentences. I need to clarify a statement.
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   Under the Islam comparison:
   2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims, Christians and Jewish
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   Should read:
   2. Why do I exist? No real explanation other than to escape those who oppress the Muslims; namely the Christians and the Jewish.

4. 184 davehead May 2nd, 2008 at 10:04 am

   i would have alot to write about it i had the patience to write so much and know where to begin.. i dont know how you do it. I do believe that existance is random and has no place for things such as fate, kama and all those sorts of superstition. I dont think i need to explain my view on miracles. Although evolution seems a bit far fetched i think is the best answer i have heard of so far. Im sure most of us understand that its entirely possible that can be scrapped and a new theory can take its place.

   one event i cant seem to embrace is the big bang. in my view for there to be a big bang there needs to be something there in the first place. maybe we are living in a universe that has always existed and doesnt have a starting point. the large explosion at the so called begining may have been just a large star big enough that we cannot comprehend.

   the reason i am so repulsed by the bible is that there is some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that… although i dont remember alot of it i had read parts of the bible during primary school in riligious instructions and alot of it just seemed like fairy tails. for example.. noahs ark. 2 of every animal on one boat? is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the earth? and the 7 days of creation… this might sound like a petty arguement but with the size of the unirverse, the amount of stars that are out there and all the other possible planets, why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? i dont think i remember the rest of the universe even being included. being 2 in the morning right now im a little tired and dont have concentration to word things properly but im sure you get my point. i believe science tries to give us answers and doesnt mind being proven wrong.

   science may not be able to explain the human concience but it may in time. just as we were able to discover what each section of the brain was responsible for. got distracted and now ive forgotten what i was on about..

5. 185 Cannibal May 2nd, 2008 at 7:15 pm

   MrMiami, we are glad you are no longer an areospace engineer. Unfortunatley in this culture we no longer believe ariplanes fly becuse angels are carrying them on their wings. Of course, everything is debatable, but we have yet to find a single angel feather stuck in the jet engine.

6. 186 MrMiami May 3rd, 2008 at 5:29 am

   The trouble with Christianity or any religion is its believers are at various stages of maturity in understanding the faith. As an outcome they make incorrect comments based on incomplete understandings. Common misunderstandings in Christianity include MATT 7:1; Judge Not yet ye be Judged. Some Christians actually believe they cannot judge based on this verse. The true understanding is the complete context of Matt 7 is man cannot condemn because that is God’s exclusive right. However, each man must make himself right in order to judge between right and wrong conduct. Other common misunderstandings include ‘turning the other cheek’ and capital punishment. To answer some of your questions, I’ll present a Christian view:
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   Noah’s ark. Two of every animal on one boat? The Bible states that only land animals were taken on board. Fish were not. Christians also believe that only one breed of each species was brought on the ark. Over time there no transpecies mutations only interbredding that lead to the large variation in horses, cattle, dogs, birds, etc… The physical dimensions of the ark are in the Bible and it is large enough to carry feed and more animals than found in most zoos.
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   Is there actually enough water on our planet to flood the Earth? Christians, for one, believe that the climate was different during the days of Noah. They believe a thick cloud cover enveloped the Earth in the early times. There was some climatic, solar, or planetary event that caused the cloud cover to disipate in the form of rain and contributed to the flooding. The collateral effect was also to shorten the human life span due to the aging effects of solar radiation. The Bible also remarks that the Earth itself opened up and water welled up out of the ground too.
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   And the 7 days for creation? The Christian doctrine is that the Universe’s creation was in 7 days. Christian believers possess a wide variation on this theme. Fundamentalist typically remark that a day is 24 hrs and it took tooks days. Afterall, we are talking about a God. More relaxed thoughts consider a host of things. Science has clearly proven that the largest object is 10 to the plus 40th meters and the smallest is 10 to the minus 33 meters. These are limitations of boundaries on the physical universe. It is perfectly ordered and indeterminant. Hence, naturally there is no such thing as infinity in addition to there is no randomness either. The process of creation could have been ‘programatic’ development or evolutionary development. Some Intelligent Design proponents suggests that God wrote the ‘computer code’ in 6 days and executed it then rested. As the code ran it assembled the natural and God ‘tweaked’ the code from time-to-time. This view is consistent with many scientific findings.
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   Some pretty hard evidence that the universe is more than 15,000 years old. ei dinosours, light from distant stars and galaxies that have been travelling longer than that. The Christian view is one that dinosaurs and humans coexisted at one point. The Bible makes reference to two instances of large beast. It also makes references to giant humanoid life forms called the Nephylum. In part the Nephylum is why the great flood happened. Carbon dating has enormous errors in it of plus or minus 40,000 years too. Also science has proven that light is slowing down and physicists believe that light was far more quicker in the early universe. So if one is basing the age of the universe on the speed of light being constant then enormous errors could occur in computing the age of the universe causing one to think it is older than it is.
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   Why did it take so long to create the earth compared to the rest of the universe? The Bible account of creation indicates that the Earth was created BEFORE the rest of the universe because the Earth and the universe was design for human occupation. The Bible indiciates that Humans cannot see the largest or the smallest things, that the universe is made of nothing, and that Christ himself personally holds it together. Science has shown that in terms of orders of magnitude the Earth is located smack dabb in the center. Humans are at 10 to the zero meters and the Earth is at about 10 to the plus four meters. I spoke of the smallest and the largest already. Christians also believe that God exists outside space-time eventhough he is an active participant in space-time. Thus, if one is outside the fish bowl from that perspective it is not that grand of a place.
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   Regarding the human conscience, science has struggled with what it defines as the mind-brain problem for eons. The closest science can come to this issue is the order and complexity of the brain. On a good day the closest a soft science, Psychology, can get to understanding the mind is so negligable that it is not worth mentioning. The mind is largely not understood. However, the best theory on the brain mechanics I can discern is the Holographic brain. Biblically, a human embodiment is composed of several spiritual elements; an image, a soul, and a metaphorical or analoguos heart. Christians believe that the mind and the heart are linked based on scriptures as usual. The Bible indicates that the Heart is so corrupted that once a human allows the Holy Spirit to enter the body the heart is cast out and a new one is given. The battle is for the human soul and in the end the Anti-christ goes to the extent of placing his image in humans embodiments who already have corrupted hearts linked to thier minds. God basically goes nuts over this and essentially raises hell.

7. 187 MrMiami May 3rd, 2008 at 5:50 am

   @all:
   .
   I got to get better at this. Some quick corrections on review:
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   1. At least two breeds needed to be on the ark in order to cause interbreeding.
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   2. 7 day creation clarification. If humans can get a burger in one minute and eye glasses in an hour why can’t a God create a universe in 7 days? Don’t forget he is outside of his creation at the instant of creation. His spirit enter the Earth in the beginning but he, himself, did enter the time domain until he walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam. It he is outside space-time then time really has no relevance. When looking at the Fish bowl from outside the world inside seems pretty small.

8. 188 MrMiami May 3rd, 2008 at 11:12 pm

   @Cannibal:
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   Your insults are duly noted as a testament to you character.
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   BTW there are three theories on why airplanes fly; circulation, mass flow rate, and pressure-vaccuum theories. They are only theories and no really knows why planes fly but none of those theories include angels.
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   If your angel theory of flight did exist then I am confident that a feather would be stuck up your anal orifice putting you into flight.

9. 189 davehead May 4th, 2008 at 11:11 am

   since its a first offence lets just pretend you didnt quote the bible. it has no place here. unless it comes from the writings of our profit, bobby. but yeah you didnt really use it as an arguement..

   Im pretty sure the boat i have sitting my by back yard has enough room to hold the variety of animals kept at most zoos. did noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world? kangaroos arnt very good swimmers. even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution. just over a longer period of time adaptation comes in aswell.

   even if the bible says so, i dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it. even if all the ice in the poles was to melt, aswell as glaciers. there wouldnt be enough water to flood the earth. clouds come from moisture from water evaporating from the earths surface so thats not going to make a very big contribution… an alternative would be it magically appeared. i think the link between global warming and the number of pirates is more believable.

   there might be a variance of 40,000 years on carbon dating, but that is a marginal error that is still greater than the supposed age of the universe.
   hasnt the bible changed from several times? one of the last times to accomidate the existance of dinosours? even with an error of 40,000 years carbon dating sets them back… say… millions of years ago.

   as with the 7 day creation… im not going to go there. the Flying Spaghetti Monster could do it in 6. with ease.

   i think apart from the human conscience, science has the brain worked out pretty well. well enough to perform surgury on it is good for me. might not always be succesful though. the heart is a muscle that pumps blood around our bodies. no more. doesnt have anything to do with corruption. i’ve met quite a few christians and i can say pretty easily theyre evil people and i have more morals than all of them.

   where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute? im getting sick of waiting for my food at 2 am when i finish work. your last post seemed a little more christian. we dont need to know about any information from the bible.

10. 190 MrMiami May 7th, 2008 at 11:27 am

    @Davehead
    .
    You are asking questions about Christianity, hence I am presenting those views to you. And you continue to ask questions. I’ll continue to respond with the Christian view point.
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    You asked, “Did Noah sail around to each continent picking up animals native to each part of the world?” The Christian understanding is that all the animals were onboard before the rain began and the Christian believe that the animals came to Noah based on Genesis 7:8-10.
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    You remarked, “Even if all the species today had come from just a few breeds of each animinal, that idea would promote evolution.” In Darwin’s own Tree of Life or the phylogenetic tree, breeds are a subset of a species. Therefore, increasing breeds does not cause a change in species. It causes a alot of different breeds within a species. Vertical evolution or transpecie evolution is not supported by breeding. The alleged science purported is “random” genetic drift. Using Leonardo Di Vinci practice of ‘demonstrazoni’ we have not observed or been able to demonstrate successful processes of ‘random genetic drift’. In fact, science is not possible if randomness exist because then the ethics of science demand repeatable demonstrations of the natural phenomenon or process. Anything random cannot be repeated since it will always be something else!
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    You commented, “I dont think the ground opens up and water comes out of it.” A Christian would remark that the Beverly Hillbillies had black gold, oil, bubble up from the ground! Second, Old Faithful blows out of the ground. Third, Coors beer is made from natural springs that orginate from underground. The natural condition of the Earth at the time of the Flood was a climate far different than today’s less violent Earth. Christian science sees the entire Earth completely enveloped in a thick cloud cover that probably reached higher than thunderheads today. This cloud cover completely disipated. There may have been large underground pools of water similar to todays oil reserves that became released perhaps with volcanic or tectonic forces. All this violent activity could have begun with an impact of a large meteor and the Earth has evidence of deep impacts in the past. Global temperatures also were higher due to the massive cloud layer and polar ice caps did not form until the cloud layer dissipated. This could account for where the water receded to after the 150 days.
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    You commented, “Hasn’t the Bible changed from several times? One of the last times to accomodate the existence of dinosours?” The Bible has always commented directly on Dinosaurs in verses Job 40:15-24 and Psalm 104:25-26. There has been no change. Other references to large monsters include Genesis 6:4, the Nephillum. Some Christian’s speculate that Goliath of 1 SAM 17 was a Nephillum. Nephillum were all male creatures who were superhuman in strength and speed. Fallen angels were having sex with human women and creating this hybrid race of Nephillum or the fallen ones. In Greek they were called the Earth born. These beast are thought to return in the end times based on Biblical references.
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    You queried, “Where are you getting these burgers that take only a minute?” My kitchen. Actually I believe MacDonalds grill time is exactly one minute for a hamburger patty. It may take you longer if they put all the trimmings on.
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    What you need to do is take a serious look at all the arguments and worldviews to determine what it is you should beleive. Study science and ethics of scientific rigor. I think you’ll find that evolution completely falls apart and there is no stength to it. You’ll see Christain have a lot of silliness among the their thoughts. You’ll see idiocy in the Islamic views. You’ll need get down to the most fundamental basics and buildup from there. I have spent a lot of money and time since 2001 studying and writing papers trying to get a grasp on this illusion of life. It is not easy but I am coming to a point where I cannot find resources to satisfy my thirst for understanding. I have come along way I believe and it has cost me. I have been in vile arguments and even called out in church not for heresy, my beliefs or lack of belief but instead because the Pastor was not the Christian he purported himself to be. His
    prideful arrogance oozed like ectoplasmatic slim. So who am i, a Christian, a atheist, an agnostic, or something else?

11. 191 Cannibal May 7th, 2008 at 12:41 pm

    You comment says the same about yourself.

    MrMiami, there is 5,400 species of mammals, 9,703 species of birds, 8,225 kinds of reptiles, over a million described species of insects, and about 350,000 species of land plants.

    Keep in mind that according to the definition, a species consists of a group of organisms thet can interbreed wth each other, but not with other species. You can’t cross an ostrich with a pelican and get a heron. Besides that, if interbreeding between different species could produce new species, then why aren’t we getting new kinds of animals every day? Why aren’t there no dragons, unicorns, or merimaids?

    Now, the big question, how did Noah cart that menagerie around for 40 days even if he had the largest most technologically sophisticated ark humanity has eve seen?

    Sorry, all your beloney sounds just like the angel theory of airplane flight. You obviously have a severely retarded understanding of science, especially biology.

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