NOVA’s most recent program is about the Intelligent Design debate over the last few years. They’ve put together an excellent companion website, and as of November 16th, you can watch the entire program online - I highly recommend it. NOVA always does a fantastic job on their programs and this is no exception.
My one criticism is that they neglected to mention the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s role in the Intelligent Design vs Science debate.
Checked that out when they posted the clips. Excellent! Thanks NOVA (:))
Transcripts also available there :))
Silver
So far this seems like a great resource for whats happening all over the place. I also haven’t seen any reference to His Noodliness. Hopefully they will be touched and all their nonsense will be at an end.
I don’t see how they really could have slipped the FSM into the Dover Trial format. However maybe in an epilogue covering the continuation of the ID movement?
I soooooooo wanted FSM to pop up as an example of how biased the school board was.
…I mean, having only one Intelligent Design theory? C’mon!
Yes and not even the most likely one!
I stayed up till 1:30 AM just to watch this program…and I must say I am pleased, especially about the judge’s statement that ID is not science. If it’s not science, do not place it in a science class.
Fluorine
Oh what noodly appendages we weave when first we practice to believe.
Ramen
I saw the entire thing. Makes me feel all warm inside when you see nutters like Bonsel and Buckingham be really, really sour when they’ve been caught out. Buckinghams response said it all: we got obliterated, so the judge is an arse. I also laughed with glee when I heard him say with exasperation ‘How can these people call themselves christians and then go on to teach evolution?!’. Oh the nano-mindedness of these christians. They should all become organ donors. That’s generally a good thing but they should be donors especially. If you don’t use your brain, then why not give it to someone else?
@DutchPastaGuy,
But, friend, there has to be a brain there in the first place. Doesn’t there? Of course, I’ll grant that there is - at least probably - a lump of gray matter somewhere in the bone casing. But, in what state, or condition? Why would you want to give an atrophied chunk of dead tissue to anyone? Better it should stay where it is, I think. “Let the dead bury the dead”, says a passage from Scripture.
Yar, me hearties! His Great Noodliness works in wondrous ways. I love NOVA. I hope they keep doing what they’re doing. This was such an amazing piece.
I loved the part where they used the one guys own definition of science against him: if ID is science, so is astrology, ether theory, and a bunch of other discarded theories.
@Old Grouch
“But, friend, there has to be a brain there in the first place. Doesn’t there? Of course, I’ll grant that there is - at least probably - a lump of gray matter somewhere in the bone casing. But, in what state, or condition?”
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Brand new, never been used!
I loved the site!
Hven’t seen the show yet. I will tomorrow at work when there is nothing to do.
The Evolutionists kicked ass!
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@DutchPastaGuy - I too laughed with glee at Buckingham… he bristles at the thought that he descended from primates…I don’t think he descended at all… :P
Wow.that’s like forgetting to mention Spaghetti in a debate about pasta.
What a load of cultural midgets.
PLATINUM! no one called it so i get it. how dare they not mention us
I’ll make sure to watch it, sounds interesting. The FSM should have been mentioned, although I’m not surprised they didn’t.
RAmen
We are awesomes! AWESOMES!
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I liked the CNN report, though.
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Did you guys get to see Fox News and their “Virgin Mary and baby Jesus in a Pancake” report? It was newsbreak!
The Dover school board’s rapid evolution from creationists to “cdesign proponentsists.” to “design proponents” is classic! Yet they repeatedly deny that evolutionary transitional forms exist. :p)))
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3416_id_10.html
“NICK MATZKE: So the correct term for this transitional form is “cdesign proponentsists.” And everyone now refers to this as the missing link between creationism and intelligent design. You’ve got the direct physical evidence there of a transitional fossil.”
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hehehehehehehe…..
RAmen
RAmen indeed. Morning Nikkiee :) How did the exams go?
When people say there is no evidence of evolution, show them a fossil. If they contintue saying there is no proof of evolution wing the fossil at them. Maybe it hitting them in the head will drive home the point…
Hi DPG
OK :)
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@Niteshade
“Maybe it hitting them in the head will drive home the point…”
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Ok :) But how do you get them to bend over first?
For a real bunch of . . . well, I guess I should be nice about it . . . so, I’ll just use that word, “fundies”, that seems to be the “one size fits all” hereabouts . . . anyway, browsing around the Internet the other day, I ran across OBJECTIVE Ministries.org. - Where I was informed that all dinosaurs were vegetarians; and that those like tyranosaurus rex used those terrible teeth to crack coconuts. (And I thought LandoverBaptist was whacko!) Anyway, I just throw that in, since Niteshade mentioned fossils. These guys - at OBJECTIVE, etc., - have an answer for everything, fossils included. Or, to ask another question: Even if you managed to drive the point home, how would you penetrate the solid bone between the ears?
@Old Grouch
“I ran across OBJECTIVE Ministries.org”
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Lucky you (:))
There’s a good article about a dino hunting expedition at Objective Ministries.
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http://objectiveministries.org/creation/dinoexpedition.html
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Oh and did you sign their prayer book while you were over there?
@Nikkiee
“There’s a good article about a dino hunting expedition at Objective Ministries.”
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Oh my FSM! And claiming to have found them too, to refute the claims by those evil evolutionists that there is no such thing a creation science. I’m sure we’re all convinced no, right people. Right?! Uhmmmm, people? HELLOOOH?
When scientists fill a “gap” is between fossils A and B, with transitional form C, creationists/IDers then claim there are now two gaps, between A and C, and C and D! So, as science progresses, evolution will produce more and more “gaps.”
Great film. Nova always makes very good shows. I love to watch them. But I am still waiting for a FSM episode of Nova though.
“John loves Mary” sounds like it might be a subtle clue to john the babtist and Mary (the gal who gave birth to jesus). Sort of like in The DaVinci code.
I agree that nova is very good at whatever it does
Yet i was watching that very documentary and wondered where the FSM was
I do not understand intelligent designists the pastafarian creation makes much more sense
FSM bless you all
R’amen
Wow, I had Tivo’d it and I just finished watching it (at 2:18am, gulp!)
But I can’t go to bed, I’m all pumped up. I feel like I just watched a Superbowl where my team completely annihilated the opponent. And then the joy to watch their sour faces.
This NOVA episode is going to stay on my Tivo for a long time.
My favorite part is the argument against the “irreducible complexity”. At first I had no idea how they would answer to that. And quite frankly I always thought that was the ONE good argument on the ID side. I’m glad I watched this NOVA, now I have the tools to repeal the “irreducible complexity” argument the next time a crazy creationist throw it at me.
Bravo NOVA. The finest of television that is.
Perhaps FSM wasn’t mentioned because we are too small to be considered a “real” religion, yet not culty enough (like hiding in caves–see previous thread) to warrant their attention. So, we either need to get more members or we need to lock ourselves up somewhere and threaten explosives. I’d rather go the more members route–it seems less likely anybody would go prison or die over that. But hey whatever works…
@Wench Nikkiee
I had a look at the dino link.
http://objectiveministries.org/creation/dinosaurs.html
Fucking hilarious!
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“Dinosaurs are large, reptilian land animals that lived in great abundance over 4000 years ago (”There were giants in the earth in those days” [Gen 6:4]), and were mostly wiped out during the Flood. Contrary to the depictions of them from Hollywood, dinosaurs were herbivorous (”he eateth grass as an ox.” [Job 40:15]) and lived concurrently and in peace with man.”
Funny that’s not what palaeontologist think! What could the explination be!
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“They did not live 65 million years ago, as evolutionists claim, since nothing but God existed then.”
Oh I see. So the scientists are wrong, and all the evidence you need is “becase the bible says so” what a brilient argument.
Completely flawless in is simplicity!
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This is a good one “Pre-Noachian man tried to tame the dinosaur, wishing to use its might for evilness and arrogantly thinking himself as mighty as the Lord.” So that’s why god took them away from us! So simple.
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“Dinosaurs have been a favorite propaganda tool for evolutionists since the 19th century, and continue to be used to promote the pseudoscientific religion of Evolutionism in the Secular media.”
See and all this time I thought that the idea of dinosaurs living 65 million years ago was pre Darwin. Those crafty evolutionists are travelling back in time to mess with history!
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“The appeal of dinosaurs to kids is of particular interest to Evolutionists since it allows them to gain easy and willing access the minds of our children”
We are so bad! Check out the pic of the dude petting a T-rex, classic!
The documentary was cool. I liked how all the under handed tactics and lying were being done by the Christians. What a bunch of cunts!
Arrrgh!
*moving in desperation across the office*
*stops suddenly*
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Ohhhh so they are hidden somewhere….now I get it…Jurassic Park is fucking true! I knew it!!!!!!!!!
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Ok, so the flood was not to wipe out evil from earth, rather to destroy the dinosaurs because they were mean…
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I am confused *confused*
Anyone ever think that the story of the flood might have been from a valley that got flooded?
If the only people around to write the story were from that valley, it’d appear to them that the entire world had flooded. It’d also be easier to build a big boat for two of every animal in a valley and your immediate family than two of every species in the world?
Probably just breeding stock for the farm while I’m at it.
@Pluto–I love the “Objective” people’s idea that evolutionists are using dinosaurs to brainwash little kids. I’d say they got a head-start on us. Just look at “The Flintstones.” (BTW, I too love the guy petting the T-Rex. Just like a sweet little puppy dog. And notice the lack of sharp teeth. Another evolutionish plot, no doubt.)
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@storm petrel–good point. If your “world” consists of one valley, and you never leave it, then it would be easy to believe “the world” was flooded. It reminds me of the line from “Dogma” where Alan Rickman is talking to Bethany about saving the world: “Noah was drunk and look what he accomplished. I’m just asking you to go to New Jersey.” (paraphrased) Hmm…if Noah was a drunk, I wonder if he might’ve become a Pastafarian. ;-)
@storm petrel- Archaeologists think it was the formation of the black sea. There is evidence that there use to be woods in the bottom it suggesting it was once a valley below sea level and that over thousands of years the sea eroded its way to the valley, thus the black sea became as it is to day. Of course this must be wrong as the earth isn’t that old, only 6000 year at most, I bet the hidden valley of the dinosaurs is at the bottom some ware!
In a divine air pocket no doubt.
@storm petrel–well, the air pocket would explain why we don’t see them. I’m in Romania, which borders the Black Sea, and with the exception of a few hard-core, old-line communists, no dinosaurs. Maybe that’s what’s wrong with the Loch Ness monster–no air bubble. Either that, or it just likes fucking with people.
DUH! I may learn how to operate one of these machines some day, after all. Where do things go when one hits one of those extra keys that clutter up the computer keyboard, and the screen winds up blank white?
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Well, that aside. Over on another line, I found this guy, or gal, “Rylore”. He, or she, makes “OBJECTIVE Ministries” look about half-way literate and intelligent. (Well, maybe not “half-way”, but some fraction by comparison, anyway.)
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@rmw - I do enjoy your reference to “old-line communists”. Out here in the Rocky Mountain West, we have a whole lot of “old-line funnymentalcases” - or “fundies” if you prefer - who give good parallel evidence of the “evolution” of the “dogmatist” among humans. Might this be a potential study? Something along the lines of, “The Equal Congruity and Efficacy of Using Das Kapital and the Bible in Creating Living Fossils Today”, perhaps? A Doctoral Dissertation for . . .AAARRRRAAG! I’ll leave that to you young students. I’ve read, and graded, enough, and too much already!
The “flood” myth is something of a universal in the Collective Unconscious. It is even found among the Austrailian Aboriginies. And our own Native Americans who have the story of the emergence into “new” world(s), through the sipapu, after a form of underwater “limbo”, also illustrate the wide-spread remembrance of a form of natural disaster that seriously affected human kind.
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With today’s knowledge of continental drift, tectonic plates, etc., etc., one might even suggest that human kind has been around a good deal longer than many might think. Which might make Alley Oop a bit more of a possibility than some would concede. (Though I doubt he, or anyone else in Moo, would be making a pet of Tyranosaurus Rex, even a baby one.)
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One might even want to make Shakespeare a kind of Honorary Pastafarian. After all, he did write: “There are more things twixt heaven and earth than all philosophy has ever dreamed of, O Horatio!”
Learning can be fun after all!
@Old Grouch–would the Rocky Mountain West be Colorado perhaps? And maybe Colorado Springs to be more specific? If so, I know all about the “fundementalcases”–I was born and raised in Colorado Springs, so I’m quite familiar with James Dobson and his ilk. I must admit, I thoroughly enjoyed the scandal with Ted Haggard and the gigilo in Denver.
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And you know, I do see this grasping at totalitarianism with both fundies and “former” communists. This desire to bend others to their will, and control them.
Whatever happened to the law suit regarding the snake bite?
@PacificPam–it’s still probably in court. I’d be interested in seeing how it ends–does the hospital settle (since that’s the easiest thing to do), fight it, does the family drop the case…?
great show, enjoyed it very much. Isn’t about time someone sent us a hatemail soon?Are we being forgotten? the whole fundie thing would be much less fun if they started to accept us, which in fact would render them non-fundies, or am I mistaken?
Stupid people
I want to go to Africa and pet one of the dinos.
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the scary part is that in most of the bible belt states evolution is tolerated, but he kids are ’shown’ the truth and thus the ignorance continues. its hard to argue with someone whose answer to everything is ‘because god says its so’, they argue about logic and science but when it comes down to it that is the only ‘proof’ they have of their beliefs, and they refuse to even consider anything else because that would be against gods will. BTW i was told that I would be killed by god if I denied him, that was 20 years ago, and I am still waiting. I love ‘fundies’ they provide much entertainment.
You should all check out this new movie by Ben Stein… it’s called expelled… www.expelledthemovie.com
Yeah–I put it onto a disc when it ran in case they mentioned FSM…kinda bummed that they didn’t.
We’ll miss you on Thursday, Bobby! Gonna be back for Christmas?
Stewart?
Great NOVA video once again. I have even tried to start the debate on facebook’s government + religion = disaster group. And yes it was satisfying to see that the ‘fundies’ were basically pasting over ‘creationism’ with ‘intelligent design’ and it was poetic justice that evolution observed an intermediate ‘cdesign proponentsists’. simply priceless! keep up the great work NOVA.
http://utm.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2208192963
@rmw - No. I’m about 60 miles North up the road, out in Aurora. Not quite 50 years ago, I was stuck in the Springs for a couple of years, as it was the District HQ for the job at the time. Things were bad enough back then, let alone now with Dobsonism fouling up the place.
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I go back to the days of Harvey Springer, out in Englewood, and the guy old Walter Winchell used to call Gerald L. KKK Smith - pre-Phelps Kansas “star”, back then - and lived for years just a few blocks up and over from Goff, and the “Soldiers of the Cross” mini-militia outfit - the one that finally managed to attract the attention of Alcohol,Tobacco, & Firearms with a cache of sub-machine guns at its “training camp” up by Evergreen - in Denver. One of the old “Flat Earth Society” (Assembly of God)Preachers and text writers was married to my Mother’s girlhood chum; and I got more than my fair share of “Revivalism” every time he showed up in town. So, I must admit, my view of the Je$u$ Bu$ine$$ is rather skewed, to say the least.
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Ah! Yes! Haggard. Did you follow up on his insistence that he be given more - for tuition, etc., while he “studies to be a counsellor” - after he managed to hook them for over $140,000 to “retire” from the Pastorate? That was hilarious! As was Dobson’s pronouncement about 100% heterosexuality after 2 WEEKS of “counselling”. I shrunk heads for some 45+ years myself; and that was certainly a “miracle”, if ever funnymentalism produced one!
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If you have time, you might want to take a look at - the http:// stuff you’ll have to provide yourself, since this machine doesn’t do hyperlinks - where some other ramblings are gathered. Email to “dickenslaw@myway.com” should get a reply, if I can get them to take the password, that is.
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What’s a good old Colorado boy doing in Romania? Take care there. I’m being - rather literally - dragged off, to lunch.
Holy Crap! This paragraph from the laughable dino-expedition is horrible!
“Not forgetting our greater Mission as Christians, we also stopped at villages along the way to spread the Good News. We relied on Po’s expertise in witnessing to animists (which, he informed us, are still shockingly prevalent in some remote areas of China) and had much success in bringing the light of Christ to that dark land. This tried Stubbingwicke’s patience, as he made a point of letting us know every time we stopped the Land Rovers to go into a village with our Bibles. It was now quite clear that Stubbingwicke was stricken with a stubborn case of the mental disease of Atheism and that he might prove a hinderance to our research. Nevertheless, we witnessed to many natives unfamiliar with Jesus, as well as some whose only contact had been with Catholic Missionaries soft on Evolutionism. After setting them straight, we continued on our journey.”
So now creationists have labeled not only homosexuality as a ‘mental disease’ but also atheism! So atheists are mentally ill! I can only assume that me, as an agnostic is merely going insane! It also strikes me as strange that such a statement seems crazy to me - who is merely just a crazy person.
Guess this site doesn’t like website addresses any more than the Rocky Mountain News does. Wiped out the reference to, “reflections in a jaundiced eye . info”, that should be there. (I;ll try it in quotes, and see if it passes, no spaces, of course; but I’ll “cheat” there too.
The thought of scientists coming forward to try to give credence to ID theory makes me ill. As a scientist and bio-chemist it offends me to no end. There is no legitimate science behind the theory that conjectures with evolution, not matter how they try to mince words and dress it up. The only thing that is worse is that these people are teaching science at Universities. If you can’t use reason to look at the science presented you should not be allowed to teach it.
@Logical thinkarrgh, I think we’re all going nuts here. (Twitches)
The problem is that they use misinterpretations of science to convince people who don’t know any better, the same way as they use the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which actually has less proof than evolution, but there you go.
No the problem is they out and out lie! As this documentary, and all the other things I have seen from the religious, shows they are the ones who use dirty underhanded tactics, they send a man death treats for up holding the law. They really are utter cunts!
“He who believes in absurdity will commit atrocity”
@Old Grouch–Yes, the whole Ted Haggard thing was quite amusing. I particularly loved the whole meth thing. No doubt he was buying it to make sure innocent children didn’t get any. And when he came back saying he needed more cash. Classic!
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And this old (young) Colorado boy (actually, girl) is currently interning at the US embassy in Romania. They have their own issues with religion here, but not so much on issues of faith. It’s more like they’re pissed off at the Orthodox priests who collaborated with the secret police during the “good old days” of communism, and then deny, deny, deny.
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When I go back home, and can actually use my credit card without fear that it’ll be rejected since I’m in Bucharest, I plan on supporting the CoFSM and buying a few things. Always nice to stick it to the uber-right wingers back home. :-)
@ rmw- “@Old Grouch–Yes, the whole Ted Haggard thing was quite amusing. I particularly loved the whole meth thing. No doubt he was buying it to make sure innocent children didn’t get any.”
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Did he get sucked off by a rent boy for the same reason?
http://objectiveministries.org/antioccult/
“Whether it be the challenge of exorcising demonic possessions or simply the act of shooing away a gaggle of neighborhood Druids eyeing my cat, Milton, with perverse hunger, I have answered the Lord’s call to engage in Spiritual Warfare against Satan’s minions, and my answer is: “Bring it on!””
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This guy is my new hero!
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“Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort of Way Of The Master Ministries managed to infiltrate a coven of Druids [Druid segment removed; see update below] and secretly record their creepy full-moon rites with hidden-camera glasses. Kirk and Ray narrowly escape unsacrificed when one of the Druid High Priests suspects Kirk of taping their conversation. By God’s grace, Kirk was able to trick the High Priest into thinking he wasn’t on tape. Listen as the High Priest — speaking freely and without the normal subterfuge that characterizes Druidism — explains how their false, Occultic religion is steeped in licentiousness and a complete lack of Christ.”
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He’s a comic genus!
And remember kids – “Do not attempt a Druid infiltration on your own!” & “some listeners tried to imitate Kirk’s infiltration and wound up being assaulted with tree branches.”
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Assauted with tree branches- fantastic!
Or how about
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“For the safety of your soul, do not be tempted by the lure of impulse rock chip repair from strangers in parking lots. It may say free, but it could cost you your soul! If you need your windshield fixed, go to a qualified Christian repair shop.”
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So when your Christian brakes down you now know where to take him!
Long hard sticklike things, sure ‘assaulted with branches’ isn’t just the cover story?
@ storm petrel- A cover story for what? Being raped by Druids?
Since when do the druids have to have anything to do with it? I was thinking more along the lines of the number of fundie preachers falling out of the closet around the time Ted Haggard did.
Okay, that last post didn’t work. So, just copy and paste these links if you’d like. One’s a link to my blog with a news article from the local paper on the Haggard scandal, the other is a really great song entitled “Meth and Man ass.” (Who wouldn’t want to listen to that song?)
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potionsmistres.livejournal.com/17131.html–add http://
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huffingtonpost.com/paul-hipp/meth-and-man-ass_b_33326.html–add http://www.
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@Pluto–no doubt the good reverend did what he did “for the sake of the children.” Look, nobody is perfect, but you make a damn bigger fool of yourself when you pretend to be so.
“but you make a damn bigger fool of yourself when you pretend to be so.”
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Who me? Dyslexic manic-depressive? Nothing perfect about me.
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Haggard wasn’t practicing what he preached making him a hypocrite!
Also a criminal!
Meth does burn holes in your brain, could explain abit about him…
I’m feeling some tension…
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What is going on?
http://objectiveministries.org/antioccult/halloween.html
Sorry to go on about this guy but I think he is amazing.
“While many Christians correctly see Halloween as a time of occult dangers - when Satan is out in force trying to corrupt our society - they overlook the fact that all things are created by the Lord for a purpose. So what is the purpose of this dark time of the year?”
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This from a guy how looks like Herman Munster!
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“Consider this: At what other time of the year do throngs of unsaved children come to your door, begging for you to give them a treat? Why not use this unique opportunity to give these deprived children the best treat of all - the treat of Christ’s Love and eternal Salvation?”
Do you think his house is covered in egg once a year?
“These unsaved trick-or-treaters - innocent children tricked by secular society and their non-Christian parents into participating in occult rituals”
See it’s the parents who are to blame! Not being a Christian makes you an automatic devil worshiper!
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Best bit?
“It is important that we acknowledge that there are certainly lots of anti-Christian activities that go on during Halloween, including obvious and blatant things such as the reveling in demonology but also subtly subversive things such as “bobbing for apples”, which is really a symbolic re-enactment of the Fall.”
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Ok how the fuck does bobbing for apples represent the fall, other than apples are involved? Could any god box’s out there explain that one to me? Are all apples off limits?
“”BOO! I’m John the Baptist, and these are my many exciting exploits…””
@Pluto Nov 20th, 2007 at 4:23 pm: “…Ok how the fuck does bobbing for apples represent the fall, other than apples are involved? Could any god box’s out there explain that one to me? Are all apples off limits?…”
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And nowhere the bible mentions apples, only fruit. Has to do with apples having been an erotic symbol in some cultures.
@storm petrel- “Meth does burn holes in your brain, could explain abit about him…”
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Like how forgot that he was anti-gay and pro family?
Bending your head down into the bowl of water perhaps? If he’s really looking hard for something it might be that you close your eyes while bobbing then open them once your head is out of the water, with an apple, eyes closed, before the aple of knowledge was eaten, eyes open, after it was eaten.
Apple update:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_%28symbolism%29
@ Pluto, or how he forgot the meaning of the word hypocrit. I’m pretty sure it’s in the bible somewhere that hypocracy is bad, obviously not as bad as admitting that sexual preference is something you’re born with, but anyway.
I remember the other ministers had a talk with him, when they came out they said he had been cured of his homosexuality!
Do you think he sucked them all off too?
@storm petrel- “or how he forgot the meaning of the word hypocrit.”
No I think he was following the example of his deity. The one who wants the unconditional love of every one in the world, but won’t give the same in return.
You’d have to wonder, if god was real, how many mental illnesses he’d be diagnosed with.
I posted it on another thread…hahahaha
@Pluto - I got the web cam thingy working! Ha! I am so fucking smart….
@ storm petrel - well, on the grounds that god can do and be everything all at once, how about all of them. Patricularly the ones that contradict each other (agrophobia and claustrophobia, for example). Might explain some of the general mixed-up-ness of the fundies, anyway.
Ahhh…Ted Haggard!
Just reminded me…haven’t posted or watched this for a while (:))
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Dawkins Versus Haggard: the Python Edition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcEwPszfrE
@Pluto–”I remember the other ministers had a talk with him, when they came out they said he had been cured of his homosexuality!
Do you think he sucked them all off too?”
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Wouldn’t surprise me.
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Also @ Pluto–they’re pitching a fit about apples? Seriously, couldn’t they at least freak about a more suggestive fruit, like bananas?
I remember that. Haggard is such a stropy bitch.
On another note, I haven’t watched this clip yet, (just came across it), but have been following the postings and comments on movie blog here and there.
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Expelled’ Movie: The Extended Trailer
http://richarddawkins.net/article,1878,Expelled-Movie-The-Extended-Trailer,RichardDawkinsnet
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The movie blog is…ummm…*interesting*…for want of a better word!! Very heated discussions and it appears an endless stream of rabid fundies posting there. :)
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Last post by Ben Stein on the blog:
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Darwinism: The Imperialism of Biology?
http://expelledthemovie.com/blog/2007/10/31/darwinism-the-imperialism-of-biology/
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These type of posts and the subsequent discussions have been running hot there for the past few months.
Is it possible this blog is a clever media wind up for a satirical movie on ID? Or is that just wishful thinking?
@ rmw- Or a pair of melons?
Pluto
“I remember that. Haggard is such a stropy bitch.”
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Yeah :))
@ Wench Nikkiee- Re: http://expelledthemovie.com/blog/2007/10/31/darwinism-the-imperialism-of-biology/
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I have posted my two pages just now! Must get back to my Pam’s e-mail now
Apparently my post is “Awaiting Moderation”. Once again they need the opportunity to censor what they don’t like, wile On the CoFSM anyone can post what they want to!
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For the sake of ego here it is (actually cos I hate the idea of spending time writing something and it not being seen!).
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Pluto Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
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November 20th, 2007 at 10:21 am
Wow some real idiots on here.
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So you want a little evidence of evolution?
Try this: The fossil record! We can see the steps between life forms. We have fossils of animal that bear characteristics of fish and amphibians, amphibians and reptiles, reptiles with mammal like reptiles EST. I wont bore you with details just look in a museum! The fact (and this one is a fact, the fossil record shows what was even if you ignore links to what comes later) that there weren’t any flowers before pollinating insects?
You seem to lack a basic grasp of biology.
If all this is to confusing or distressing for you (you may have a phobia of museums) then go to your nearest farm. Do these animal, who are totally unsuited to life in the wild, bear resemblance to there wild cousins. Only in general physical out line. A domestic sheep will become trapped if it try’s to clime a cliff face when a wild one would leap effortlessly up it. Look at the cow that is to fat to run compared with a lean and fast ox.
If you don’t see what I’m getting at then let me explain to you, or better yet ask a farmer.
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You see these animals have been bread to have these characteristics by humans. Their ancestors were selectively bread to have more meat and to be easier to handle. Animals with desired characteristics were allowed to breed and pass them on. Those without were killed and normally eaten.
This is un-natural selection. Because humans pick what they want.
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Evolution is ‘Natural’ selection, where the environmental factors weed ok those poorly adapted to their environment.
To use an example: The lion will catch and kill the slowest member of the heard. This individual will not pass on its genetics. The ones that get away will! With me so far?
The farmer will pick the bull that produces the young with the most meat and let it bread. The rest will be castrated or slaughtered, so won’t be able to breed and pass on their geans.
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The same is true for dog, race hoarse and fish breeders. That’s why there are fish and dogs for sale that are as remote from their forbearers as to be unrecognisable. The best part about the comparison with dogs and fish is that breeders document what they do.
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More? How about he second chromosome pair in humans? The one that shows it was originally two separate pairs (luckily we can identify the codes that identify the beginning middle and end of every chromosome of every living thing on earth) The pairs show the correct codes at ether end plus 2 extra ‘end’ bits in the middle and an extra ‘middle’ bit in each too, this shows that it was once two pairs that merged I.E. changed over time. And that’s what evolution is.
You’re ignoring genetic defect and hereditary conditions. You are fools.
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Now to the matter of “Intelligent Design”. Going back to the fossil record there are species in the record that are not here now. I’m not talking about one or two species but whole ecosystems of life that are gone now. Plus none of the animals around today existed 40 million years ago. However animal with similar characteristics were around. Would one of you care to explain? Did your ‘Designer’ change its mind and replace things with new designs?
More importantly, who/what is your designer?
I don’t need a detailed account, just something along the lines of how I pointed out environmental conditions effect the organism in that environment.
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Now to the thing I find most disturbing: Why is it that supporters of Intelligent Design have all have religious links, even the ones who have lied about it and been found out later. How about ‘Of people and Panders’ where the unedited version (before a particular court case) had Creationism (a religious term) replaced with Intelligent Design?
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This is what this is really about: An attack on modern science by an archaic institution.
These scientists aren’t taken seriously because they have yet to show credible evidence.
Don’t get me wrong: Evolution is only a theory. But it fits in with the working of the world and the available evidence. Intelligent design requires you to ignore the evident in front of you.
See, classic religion!
Hug and Kisses
Pluto
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Pluto Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
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November 20th, 2007 at 10:39 am
I’d like tocorrect myself Re:”Plus none of the animals around today existed 40 million years ago” This is not true, there are a hand full of “living Fosills” around today such as deep sea hag words, trops est.
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Anything eles anyone feels I should mention?
Not that I expect they’ll listen, but did you fancy having a go at explaining early hominid evolution to them Pluto? Or even evidence of evolution in modern humans. Mind you, last time I tried that one (explaining the fact that the human form hasn’t adjusted to being upright yet, hence the fact that the pelvis is the wrong shape, making pregnancy and labour much more dangerous than it is inother animals) I was told that it was the pain was a punishment from this all-loving god for Eve doing something wrong, which tends to be a bit of a conversation stopper.
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Mind you - please don’t take this as criticism of what you did write, which covers all sorts of wonderful subjects, and I’m awed by your willingness to take this debate to them.
@Jennyanydots- I think we have to. Like you said most of what I’ve written will be ignore. Sure this is basic stuff that is overlooked but still a very important point. (Especially the farm animals bit because you can’t deny that without looking like and idiot) If I can make just one of them think about it then I’ve done a good job, because by thinking about it they open their mind to an alternative way of thinking and might just start questioning the absurdity of it all.
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It’s like the guy with the dinosaur above. He use scraps of science (such as mentioning sedimentary rocks) but throws in total lies (IE the earth being 6000 years old and T-Rex being an herbivore).
I think there are those well aware that they are in the wrong, but feel the need to at least pretend to keep up appearances (i.e. Haggard).
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Whether or not a made a difference I tried, which is all I can do.
Notice I was quite restrained with my insults too!
Good Job, babe!
I CONVERTED ONE OF MY FRIENDS!!!!
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I’m a converterer! haa! Do I get a medal for my first conversion?
I usually tend to find human evolution is the real stumbling block. Just because that’s the bit they really don’t want to accept, they grasp around to argue against the whole thing, or sometimes say they can accept it for other animals but people were created intact and haven’t changed since. Requires some fairly tortured logic there, which is why most of them go for the “it’s all wrong” approach, but was slightly concerned that the NOVA website (and I haven’t read it all, or watched the programme, so apologies if this came across better in one of the bits I haven’t seen) seems to have focused very heavily on everything but the evidence for human evolution, as if to make it more palatable to the wavering fundies.
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I’ve often wondered why we have a coccyx, why a snake has vestigial hind limbs.
(I can imagine the answer to the snake one - *god left them there as a permanent reminder of the grace from which the serpent had fallen*)
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Also - if god is so damned omniscient, omnipotent etc. and unconcerned by time (he’s outside time, apparently) why didn’t he give us some hint about DNA in the bible?
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Why - “and god created man in his own image…”? Instead of…
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” and god created a sticky goo,
and from that,
he made you! ”
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It would have scanned better!
Sticky goo? like Play-Doh?
@Jennyanydots- no the documentary is very good. It just concerns the trial, which the god boxes lost. Very interesting.
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@PacificPam- Well done babe!
They have yet to post my comments on their shitty site
@ Alchemist- something very disturbing about being made from gods sticky-goo
@rmw - My apologies for not responding sooner; but things manage to pile up from time to time. No chauvinism, or macho “sexism” intended back there when I asked about your being in Romania. Just the old habit of taking for granted that one asks - or thinks - in terms of “he/him” first; which, with some 75+ years of scribbling, hangs on, especially in short, and informal, notes. I really think you have a wonderful opportunity there; and I certainly wish you all the best as you continue your training.
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We had a little of the left-over WW-II animosity loose here too, with the Romanian Archbishop, Valerian, being forced to give up his Jurisdiction, and retire to a Monastery up in Canada, after accusations of his having been a member of Romania’s Fascist Youth Org. As a sort of “counterweight”, we also have the wonderful works of the late Professor, Father Merica Eliade; whose entire writings on religion are MORE than worth the effort to read, and contemplate.
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No offense to our good Pastafarian hosts here; but NOT all Christianity is rooted in bibliolatry, nor is it all - or even in that large a part - given over to such funnymentalcase ideas as “Creation Science” and/or “Intellegent Design” - as a fixed set of propositions - substituting for human growth, discovery, and knowledge.
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Indeed, if I may be allowed to make the observation, a very fine, and scholarly, acquaintance often observes that, “Christianity is a thinking man’s religion”. If anyone finds a paradox there, it might be both interesting and fun to work through.
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In any event, having now been kicked off, and locked out of the Rocky Munchkin News - which offers opportunity for comment on Letters only by “subscription”, and with “approval”,as given by a password from them, which password is now required to even get an email Letter to one of the Columnists through their censors - it is a pleasure to be able to find intelligent people, who are willing to deal with ideas.
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Apropos of which, an old saying: “A University is a student on one end of a bench and a great scholar on the other.” (Back when that was going round, the scholar named was usually Oliver Wendel Holmes; but you choose your own.) However, in Colorado today, the student would find himself, or herself, mighty lonesome out there on his, or her, end of the bench.
DUH! What in the h#@$ is a “BIBLE” University?
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And, what in h&*@ is a “Bible University” graduate doing as President - or Chancellor, or Dean, or whatever - of a tax supported State “institution of higher learning”?
Oh, and Alchemist - how about tonsils and appendices? Actually how about eybrows?
@Old Grouch- problem with what you have said is that the only real Christians are the fundamentalists.
They are the only ones who believe the bible word for word. Anyone who doesn’t is just posing and deluding themselves. How can you be part of a religion you don’t believe in?
“Actually how about eybrows?”
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Yeah and why do I have a really hairy bit between my shoulders? In fact - if I remember - the only place on our body we don’t have hair is on our pads!
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Sorry - palms.
hahahahaha Hair…
@Pluto - Orthodoxy is not based on the Bible. Indeed, it was the Church, in Council Assembled, who collected together the various manuscripts circulating throughout the Church, and settled upon that Canon which would be used throughout for Public Worship, in the 6th Century. When the Protestant revolutionaries threw out Tradition - however much abused and twisted it had become in the Western Church - they were left with . . . basically a form of “make it up as you go along”, which is the root of all Protestantism, and its various cults, sects, and divisions today.
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Your Bible will give you the words of St. Paul, where he says, “If an angel comes among you teaching other than we have taught, reject him.” Which teaching was ORAL, not from any written source, and is Tradition. In strict application, Orthodoxy regards Romanism as Protestant, often referring to the Pope as “the first Protestant”; harking back to the Arian controversy, when Honorius of Rome, who could not read, write, or speak Greek opted for the “diphthong” - Homoiusion (of like/similar substance) rather than the Christian Theological position of Homousion (of the same substance) - and Rome was lost to the Arian heresy for about a Century and a half, before returning to the fundamentals of the Symbolion - or Creed as it is known in the West.
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The “Old Testament” - Hebrew mythology book - isn’t regarded as a “word for word” matter of belief by the Jews, whose original book it is. If they don’t, how then do “christians” come to that point?
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And, while Christians did - and still do - utilize the Psalms, and other parts of the Old Testament readings, Orthodoxy does not - and never has - seen any of them in the “Mohamedan” view, as being some kind of “dictated”, or “transcribed”, “Divine and inerrant” set of absolutes. Indeed, if you actually read your Bible itself, you will find that many of the historical books tell you, among other things, that they are, simply, redactions, or editions, of other, more comprehensive, works, usually to be found - in the day and age - in the Royal archives, or equivalent.
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Don’t mistake bibliolatry - book worship - for Christian Theology.
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If you be actually interested in Christian Theology, I would recommend Father John Meyendorf, BYZANTINE THEOLOGY - or almost any other of his writings as well. Father Alexander Schmemann also wrote an excellent catechetical series. Any of these should be available through your library; Or, if you want to add them to your own library, Light and Life Books, St. Vladimir Seminary Press; or most religious/church goods retailers on order.
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Christian Theology (Orthodox) concerns itself solely with that which are matters of Faith. Sociology, economics, history, and the “hard” sciences are matters of HUMAN affairs; and humans are quite free to develop their own cultures, customs, usages, and technologies.
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But, again, I would suggest that those who want to learn go to those who are sources of teaching materials. That’s really what learning is all about - education, to “educe”, or draw forth from - rather than mere memorization, and parroting of a “party line” by way of indoctrination. I think one will find that process to be a wonderful experience in life.
Need…more…gaps…please!
I am so lazy to read those long posts…bah..
@ Old Grouch_ so real Christians are inspired by writing not a slave to it.
@ old grouch
Jesus said in Matthew 5:18 “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”.
Jesus says the old testament is the real deal - every word. Verse 19 and 20 go on to describe the punishment for not heeding the old laws/testament/prophets.
The bible is so ambiguous that you can pretty much support any preconceived notion you may have. The rub comes when you pay attention to ALL of it. There is some pretty nasty shit in there….
On occasion I wander over to the Disco Institution to see what the prize IDiots have been up to. I do not recommend taking such an excursion on a regular basis as this often numbs brain function for hours, which can be quite scary at times for those endowed with rational thought function abilities. From snake oil sales head office:-
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*Design of Life* (Posted 19th November at Discovery)
“Fast forward to 2008, and Pandas’ successor, The Design of Life, written by leading ID theorists William Dembski and Jonathan Wells, brings readers up to speed on the numerous advancements of ID over the past 20 years. Design of Life is more than twice as long as Pandas, recounting many of the peer-reviewed scientific papers, scientific books, and laboratory studies completed by ID theorists. It offers an excellent up-to-date account of ID for any reader.”
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http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/11/design_of_life.html#more
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I was sure I could hear singing while I was there….like “we’ll build a world of our own”….and then….. “we’re not listening… we can’t hear you….we can’t see you…. lalalalalalalalala”.
@ Jennyanydots Nov 20th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
“how about tonsils and appendices? Actually how about eybrows?”
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-@109 Alchemist Nov 20th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
“Yeah and why do I have a really hairy bit between my shoulders? In fact - if I remember -
the only place on our body we don’t have hair is on our pads”!
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My favourite…..scent glands around our anus?
@ Old Grouch
Oooooh! I love it oral! But you are correct, the Byzantine is the closest to the paga- I mean original Christian traditions, hehe.
@Old Grouch–no worries. I realize my user-name here is ambiguous. My time in Romania has been interesting–somewhere in the middle of good and bad. The amount of corruption here is mind-boggling. Unlike the US (which I believe ranks #20 on Transparency International’s Corruption Perception Index–the lowest of all the rich, western countries), which at least tries to be subtle about it, Romanian politicians and authority figures are completely blantant about the corruption. (They rank #69 on the CPI, and are the most corrupt member of the EU.) Anyway, enough ranting…
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“No offense to our good Pastafarian hosts here; but NOT all Christianity is rooted in bibliolatry, nor is it all - or even in that large a part - given over to such funnymentalcase ideas as “Creation Science” and/or “Intellegent Design” - as a fixed set of propositions - substituting for human growth, discovery, and knowledge.”
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And think that shows by the numbers of Christians we’ve had post here that aren’t offended by the site and FSMism, and can appreciate the satire of it. And we’ve even had one on another thread (user name: sawthelight), who, while a bit heavy-handed in her approach, was genuinely concerned about our souls. Once everybody got past their respective “I’m right, you’re wrong,” attitudes, a civilized conversation followed. I think the aggravation of bibliolatory stems from the fact that this minority is very vocal and uses that to try and bully their way into places where their beliefs do not belong, such as science classrooms.
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@Captain Capelli d’angelo–”Jesus said in Matthew 5:18 “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”.”
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Did Jesus say that, or did some random guy say that, centuries after Jesus’ death?
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“The bible is so ambiguous that you can pretty much support any preconceived notion you may have. The rub comes when you pay attention to ALL of it.”
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Agreed. And it’s the literal interpretation of these conflicting notions that leads to some people calling for the teaching of ID in science classes, and FSM knows what else. (I had a classmate a couple years ago who continues to flip out about birth control. Apparently, it contradicts the whole “go forth and multiply” or other such nonsense.)
@Wench Nikkiee – Re http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/11/design_of_life.html#more
I had a qick read. Seems like a lot of bull shit to me.
“Today, the NCSE’s website hosts over 100 individual web pages attacking Pandas….
Why have Darwinists gone to such lengths to attack Pandas? It’s simple. While Discovery Institute opposes mandating ID in public schools or adopting Pandas in public schools, Pandas nonetheless scared Darwinists because it offered a potent, comprehensive critique of Darwinian evolution and proposed a legitimate scientific alternative, intelligent design (ID). “
I thought it was because it was filled with unexplained and ungrounded sudo-science?
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I liked the quote you used.
“…recounting many of the peer-reviewed scientific papers, scientific books, and laboratory studies completed by ID theorists. It offers an excellent up-to-date account of ID for any reader.”
Would that be 400 pages of crap and overly worded trip designed to try and fool those who don’t know better?
Best of all:
“a critical analysis of the evidence used to support the hypothesis that whales evolved from land-mammals.”
Soooo this would ignore the fossil record again? Or the fact that the breath air?
It’s the horrible combination of funny and scary (like circus clowns) that seems to prevail.
Are we sure their not just taking the piss?
“Seems like a lot of bull shit to me.”
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Yep! Just standard for them!
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“Are we sure their not just taking the piss?”
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Discovery Institute? Noooo…. they’re dead serious…that’s ID headquarters :((
“like circus clowns”
Funny you should say that….their two top poster boys are often referred to as the “Behehehehe and Dumbski” Disco Clown Act. Dumbski of course being none other than William Dembski …co-author of that book. He sure is some piece of warped work!
@ Wench Nikkiee- Does he post how great he is? Or how he was never going to be recognised for anything in life so made up so pretences clap trap instead?
Well he does has his own propaganda website. My guess is also that Discovery pays him rather well!
I wish I could link the animation he had commissioned of Judge Jones and the Dover trial prosecution witnesses…complete with fart and pig sound effects. He sent a copy of it, as a xmas present, to all the science wittnesses for the prosecution ! Far as I know it’s not up on the net anymore. Really did give an idea of the guys personal mentality….the description “narcisstic personality disorder” comes to mind.
WOW and I thought I was up my own arse!
zzzz…
Is that my beautiful butterfly? Wake up babe!
I’m up! *taking off a post-it sticked to my forehead*
@PacificPam (Butterfly)- That’s my girl.
@ Pluto - Sorry I’m tardy in reply; but I don’t get all that much time for “surfing” and/or enjoying the blog some days; and yesterday was one of those.
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You have summed it up quite well. The “inspiration” - or, if you will, the gift of Faith - led to writing it down, for wider distribution of the Good News (Gospel), as well as for opportunity to repeat the lessons and biographical information in a way that would re-afirm and strengthen the individual, and Community, in their living examples.
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Also, the interactions of the Communities themselves (Ecclesia/congregatons/churches) led to times when one group had questions concerning local “problems”, which were referred to that living authority - such as the Apostle Paul - who answered their questions, and gave such worldly guidance as necessary. As time went by, certain Communities developed large libraries, as well as a local reputation for being good examples; and questions were directed there, with answers coming from the then living Bishop, or other recognized leader. (The Epistles)
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The various offshoots, and heresies, also developed a body of written materials, some of which imitated and/or closely paralleled the Orthodox writings; and which also circulated widely. The Council assembled as much of this material as it could, from as universal a representation of the local Churches as was then possible to accomplish. All were considered, and comparred to the essential of Tradition - and the Theology of the Symbolion - and the final Canon adopted for Leiturgos (Public Worship) was the Council’s form of a “seal of approval” on the materials. The written word and the oral Tradition/word were congruent, and Theologically Orthodox (Right Glorifying, Right Worshiping)for use throughout the world.
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The Septuagint (Seventy) version of the Hebrew Scriptures was appended to the books assembled as “New Testament”, on the basis of its being prophetic and pre-figuring the Mysteriae of Christianity. This was NOT a form of “adoption” of Hebrew “Laws”, or the Jewish Ritual forms of Kosher/Clean, Tref/Unclean; nor were these ever considered as now binding on Christians in perpetuity.
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Rather, the New Testament includes a somewhat truncated historical/biographical section - the Acts of the Apostles - in which Christians learn of the way in which the Apostles themselves, in the Council at Jerusalem, disposed of not only the matter of circumcision, but also of the dietary - and other - Hebrew legalisms.
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The Protestant regression to bibliolatry only serves to show the emptiness of their whole idea of Christianity. If the Hebrew Scriptures be - as with Mohamed’s Qran - something perpetual, absolute, and binding forever, why then don’t Protestants also insist on circumcision, and the whole of the Kosher/Tref set of laws and instructions?
@ Those quoting the passage concerning Jesus’s words about the “fulfillment of the Law”:
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It is the fundamental premise of Christianity that HE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW. (Read the Epistles of St. Paul for the formal exposition here.) That there are human rules and regulations, social, political, cultural, etc., etc., is one thing. That the Hebrew Law (Torah/Talmud, etc.) has been fulfilled, and is now not necessary to Christians is quite another.
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The great difference between Orthodoxy and Romanism/Protestantism lies in the fundamental premise that Christianity is an INDIVIDUAL experience - the GIFT of Faith personally, Incorporating the soul IN CHRIST. Romanism/Protestantism, on the other hand, hold Christianity to be an INSTITUTIONAL experience - “salvation” by way of JOINING THE CHURCH, and being a follower of all the rules and regulations of the GROUP.
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This WESTERN religious position comes from the Roman adoption of the philosophical approach to “knowing ABOUT God”, by way of Augustine of Hippo, Origen, and the Aristotleian from of “logic”. This mind-set was specifically condemned by Council, with Origen, and all his followers - of whom Augustine of Hippo was an avowed member - named in the condemnation.
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Orthodoxy, on the other hand begins with the statement: “We know nothing ABOUT God. We know God.” And the essential of MYSTERY - a Total Transcendence become an Incarnate Immanence - is the Christian message. (Which leads to the further development of human kind’s own Theosis, individually.)
@ old grouch
Your answer to my point about the application of Old Testament law is pretty typical. You didn’t answer. Instead we took a trip through other verse and dogma.
Back to the point…Matt 5:18 is straightforward and says you as a christian abide by all OT law. You are not even allowed to break the “least” of the laws. Verse 19 and 20 are the punitive verses that call you names (beast) and say you can’t get into heaven unless you abide by 5:18. Are you saying by virtue of your response that other evidence you have proves these verses errant?
@Captain Capelli d’angelo. Sorry. You are assuming that Orthodox Christianity is, somehow, historically subsequent to, or out of, the Western European Protestant Revolution, where bibliolatry - i.e., supposedly basing the Church on the book; and making the book into an idol, as with Mohamed and the Qran - takes the place of the actual historical reality of Christianity, which began as ORAL TRADITION, with the book as “coroberation” NOT, as you seem to be insisting, the “model for inception”.
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If, for you, Protestant bibliolatry is your form of “Christianity”, there is no more to say. We are then actually dealing with two different religions entirely; and as a long time history student, and teacher, I can only stick to the historical facts that show them to be such. What you speak of as “other verse and dogma” is Orthodox Christianity
I am an Orthodox Christian. Orthdoxy does not regard the book as inerrant, nor as being some kind of imposition of absolute law, based on the Hebrew Torah. I cannot answer a question concerning something that IS NOT Orthodox Theology as if it were. The evidence is the 2,000+ years of Orthodox Christianity; the history of the Seven Oecumenical Councils - where Orthodox Theology was established - the Symbolion (Creed); which is that Profession of Faith which Orthodoxy makes at all Worship - That which is Prayed is that which is believed. - and the host of writers known as the Fathers of the Church, who detail Orthodox belief and practice. For me, as an Orthodox Christian, that is where all Dogma is found.
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If you want support for, or acquiesance to, a Protestant presentation, I can’t give it to you. Thank you for your patience in reading what I have presented.
Hello Old Grouch,
You are one of the best read Christians I’ve seen on this site
in the year that I’ve been coming here.
While I’ve established a trademark of being concise on this forum.
I’ll stick to that trait and ask you why God lets children be born ill,
And-or with terminal illness?
I trust you won’t give me a Bible quote (I know them all anyway).
But I will admit I’m lacking in the way of the Orthodox belief system.
Could you shed light on my question (from the Orthodox point of belief)?
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Thank you,
Peter Popoff
@ Peter Popoff - The whole matter of, “Why God lets . . . whatever . . . “, is one that presumes that human-kind itself KNOWS HOW “God should act”. This mind-set is based on the premise that the finite/created somehow exceeds - or “controls”, or affects - the Infinite/Uncreated. And this approach is at the root of the anthropomorphization of God that gives us the mythological pantheons, where the “deities” simply mirror human behavior on a grandiose scale. From this anthropomorphic conception of “deity”, philosophy builds a whole structure of what humans “know” - or are supposed to be able to “know - ABOUT - God”, including such esoteric concepts as just exactly how each Person of the Holy Trinity inter-connects, and inter-acts, from inception. (And, if you don’t think that one is a real mind-bender, you haven’t had a Jesuit philosophy major.)
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Orthodoxy simply refuses the whole idea of an anthropomorphic approach. As Orthodox, we know nothing ABOUT God; we know God. And this is a PERSONAL knowledge, by way of Revelation, brought to fruition with the Incarnation, and available to each of us through our Incorporation into the Living Body of Christ on Earth, by Baptism/Chrismation. Indeed, Orthodoxy goes on to teach: “Everything we say about Him, He is not.” Which serves to remind us that we are dealing with an Absolute Transcendence, beyond all human comprehension; Who has become an Incarnate Imanence for the purpose of restoring His whole creation to that which it was when He looked upon it, and “saw that it was good”.
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We are allowed to use human language to teach, discuss, etc., etc., since language is the basic form of human communication. But, that which we teach, discuss, etc., etc., remains always “other than” the limits of language, which “otherness” is at root of the whole Mystery of Faith. Or, to try to put into some more or less modern terms, philosophy teaches “how to build a box, and know all about everything in that box”. While Orthodoxy begins by insisting that we “think outside ANY box”; or, perhaps to say it a bit better, since there is NO BOX, of any kind, that can begin to “hold” God, we really aren’t supposed to “think ABOUT” - i.e., label, pigeon-hole, categorize, set limits and boundaries, etc., etc., - God, or the “specifics” of the Mysteriae (Sacraments) to begin with, even though we live them as part of our own Theosis.
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Councils strictly condemned the Augustinian formulae that began with his idea of the “stragis”, or “indellible mark”, as the sign of “Priesthood”; but Rome adopted the Augustinian “boxes”, and developed its entire pseudo-Theology on the premises that these were “necessary to salvation”; and that any “thinking outside the box” was heretical, which led to the excesses of the un-Holy Inquisition, where even the slightest degree of thought ventured against a “definition” could get one burned at the stake. Having now created “God” in man’s own image and likeness, by way of philosophy, Western Romanism could answer any and all questions of what “God ought to . . . .”. And, answers are found in the massive volumes of Thomism, etc., etc., to almost every HUMAN question - economic, social, cultural, political, etc. etc. - that Romanism developed over the Centuries.
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We are all human. And most of us are familiar with the Western ethos, and Western philosophical approach. So, we too ask, “How/why God lets . . . ?” For Orthodoxy, strictly speaking, that is not really an “allowable” question. When Adam turned away from God, creation and human-kind were opened to suffering and death. And, as hard as it is sometimes to abstain from anthropomorphizing God, and seeking a particular answer as to “Why God lets . . . ?”, nevertheless that question remains one that has no really satisfactory human answer. Except insofar as the answer be one in which we acknowledge that we, as humans, do not fully know all ABOUT God, nor all that much ABOUT His overall - as well as often particular - plan and purpose.
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We can only surrender the question; act with our fullest compassion; and, in Faith, leave it to God.
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Which is not to say that it is not terribly frustrating to experience someone actually asking the question in a specific case. But, Orthodoxy doesn’t claim to have “all the answers”, as other forms of religion do sometimes claim.
Man…I don’t even want to read this
I don’t think there’s any obligation. Just use your scroll wheel.
I did! hahahaaha
Old Grouch,
Thanks for the read.
I think I do have a better understanding of Orthodoxy.
It was nice to hear a Christian admit they follow “Blind Faith”.
Most Internet xtians get lost at that point, and get mad and stomp off.
Silly human pride or something.
For what it’s worth, I’m glad you have that faith.
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I grew up Roman Catholic, and I know many people that follow God,
Much like you do
(they accept that some things shouldn’t questioned, and farther that there are no answers).
I respect that position, as long as my position (that I need solid answers
to questions before I’ll accept them) is respected.
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Thanks for the reply,
Peter Popoff
So, does Old Grouch likes us?
@ old grouch
Sorry I tried to put you in the “box” with others. I remain an atheist, but nonetheless find your approach to faith refreshing vs. so many others I have met. You also managed to stay positive and explanatory when more that a couple of us were being confrontational. With your level demeanor I wonder why you tagged yourself “old grouch”.
@ Pacific Pam - So far, from what I have read, and from the questions and replies that have been exchanged, I think you are, for the most part, very likeable people.
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Since Orthodoxy stresses that the finite cannot, and does not, affect the Infinite, there is a great deal more opportunity to recognize that both satire and parody are a very refreshing way in which to keep HUMAN egos from over-inflation, as well as being, very possibly, an example of the fact that God’s own sense of humor is much greater than organized religions and their leaders are willing - much less able - to admit.
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Perhaps the idea of a humorless God is at the root of that kind of response which would condemn others. There is something rather ridiculous in the approach, every time a funnymentalcase announces his, or her, interpretation of “obedience to the law/book in literal form”. The inflation of the “Pastoral” position/ego to a status of divine afflatus that confounds the messenger with the message seems to be almost universal in Western Christianity. And this more or less boils down to a kind of, “To insult/disagree with ME is to insult/disagree with God” - vide, an “Infallible Pope”, for instance, and a whole (un)-Holy Office of the Inquisition.
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Carried over into Protestantism, I believe it was Milton who wrote: “New Presbyter is but old Priest, writ large.” (Sorry. I do get long-winded, and carried away at times.) Anyway, I do like you.
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@Peter Popoff - My own background includes a Jesuit education, with double majors - philosophy being the subject area in which I wrote my Baccalaurate Thesis. On the way through, I encountered St. Photios of Constantinople, when doing a paper on the Schism of the early 800s, over the insertion of the Filioque clause into the Symbolion. I always get a little kick out of telling my good Roman friends that it was the Jesuits who made an Orthodox Christian out of me - unintentionally of course.
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If you will forgive a quotation: “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”. Altogether too often, Western versions of Christianity seem to teach that EVERYTHING has been, already, not only “seen” but completely explained, verified, proved, and cast in concrete: Just read the Book - or “follow the leader”, who knows it all already. Orthodoxy still stresses the word, “Mysterion” (Mystery) throughout. Which serves to remind us of the difference between finite/created and Infinite/Creator. And, although he was not himself Orthodox, Alexander Pope said it rather well: “Presume not God to scan./ The proper study of mankind is man.”
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Just a personal note, here. Maybe, rather than asking, “Why does God let . . . ?”, we should ask, “What can we do to change, or eliminate, that which we now see as troubling, and has us baffled?” I like to think God gave his human creation a brain, and sentience, in order for humanity to USE THEM, rather than merely to regard them as some kind of “decorative” appendages.
Yay…I just read the first line…It was enough and satisfying…=)
@Captain Capelli d’angelo - I used to post on our local Rocky Munchkin News “Reader Response to Letters to the Editor” pages - before they went over to requiring a password, which they assign, after one “subscribes” to their new website - and I am not without a fairly wide streak of crankiness that comes out at times; especially in response to today’s “conservative” political issues. I began by using my own name - and I’ll spare you the results of that, except to say, that personal harassment got way out of hand.
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When I went back, my friend suggested that, given my age, and my not always sweet, gentle, and mellow disposition, I might well use a “pen name” more descriptive of how I am seen to be. So, I do; and I’ve stuck to it, out of force of habit, I guess, even when matters are religious