The New York Times has published an interesting, very long, article about the Christian evangelical movement and its ties to the Republican party. Here’s the link.
@youthpastor
Your remarks remind me of a priest I respected when I was still RC. Once before mass he commented to the altar party (not as fun as ‘party’ sounds — smile) that he’d been called to do a nursing home funeral that week and had discovered, upon arriving, that they were Greek Orthodox.
The others gasped in sympathetic horror and asked what he did. He said, “I did Greek Orthodox, but I wasn’t very happy about it.”
They clucked their tongues sadly, but I said, “I don’t think Jesus really cares.”
The others looked at me, appalled, but the priest just smiled. “Of course he doesn’t. But I do.”
.
That’s why I respected him. He knew what path was right for him and followed it faithfully. At the same time, he was able to set it aside to do a kindness for a grieving family on another path, without one word of criticism or proselytizing to them. He also understood, and accepted with humor, that there might be a difference of opinion between his opinions and those of his god. He also encouraged people to examine what they believed and why they believed it, and to take responsibility for their own lives, even within a framework of ‘obedience’.
When I concluded that I was on a different path, he sent me off with sincere good wishes.
Classy.
@Cottura 5 Minuti
“The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book.”
.
If you want to see real wailing and gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and lockstep, kneejerk, forehead vein-pulsing hysteria beyond all the bounds of blind faith, take a gander at what the uber-Christianist fundies have to say about a book (or rather, *interpretations of* a book, as most *vehemently* deny reading!) by some British writer person named JK Rowling… ;-)
@youthpastor – I seriously think that you are doing a huge disservice to the youth you councel. God does not exist, in any shape or form, there is no guiding hand, there is no pot at the end of the rainbow. The sooner mankind realizes this, the sooner we will be able to salvage some of this world.
.
Hang on, I’m just climbing back onto my pedestal…there that is better. The ONLY way this world will be better is when all religions are abolished. Not just the xians and all the fundy ilk that go with it. So you can stop feeling all victimized now. If you take a little bit of time and think about what you are saying, read something other than your religious crap, speak with and participate in discussions with people other then your day to day yes-men. And, please do it with an open mind, you will find that there could easily be a possiblity that all faith based, religious codswallop is a bunch of hooey. Hang on, I’m just climbing back off my pedestal now…there much better. IMHO
@pieces o’nine
i personally love the harry potter books. look at the whole message that good triumphs over evil. the lessons about being loyal to your friends. it’s a GREAT book for young people to read. or older people, it’s a good series, i own all the books and all the movies that are out on dvd. like i said don’t think that all christians think the same. most christians don’t even like the “uber fundies” i hate all forms of “christian tv” because the televangelists always give me this creepy feeling.
@Iron Bess
honestly i don’t think demolishing the worlds religions is the answer. we need to learn to coexist. and most of the worlds religions do that. there’s just a couple who tend to fight. mostly over petty things, and i think it’s ridiculous.
please don’t presume that because i’m a christian that all i read is christian works. i enjoy a full gamut of books christian or not. and aren’t i participating in a discussion with someone who isn’t a yes-men right now. i like talking with people with opposing views, because i want to understand where other people come from and it challenges me personally to think more independently. like now, i honestly am smiling because i feel like i’m having a good, non threatening dialogs. my closes friend who is almost like a twin sister to me is wicca. i love talking with her about religion and spirituality.
a thought just came to me. i hope no one here thinks i’m trying to convert you or anything. that’s not my goal at all. i just wante a good conversation, and i wanted everyone to know that not all christians are ‘fundies’. to be honest i feel that is happening.
i also apologize i didn’t intend for the pedestal comment to be insulting. the heart of that message was just that understanding between people of different faiths or nonfaiths is important. i’m not asking you to become christian, just understand and know that we’re not all crazy war-mongering jesus freaks.
though i hope the same goes for you or anyone else. in any case in life how sad would it be to be surrounded by only yes-men. that would be a sheltered and lonely existence, and to be honest and blunt i would HATE if that were my reality. i feel privileged to have such a diverse group of friends.
@pieces o’nine – alchemy, astrology, sorcery (or witchcraft)… who is missing from the grand club?
.
.
Drum rollllllllll…………………….IT’S CREATIONISM!
The christian opposition to Harry Potter was only a small news headline here in Finland and nothing of the sort happened here, so I was not aware of the extent to which it has apparently grown. Let us pray to the FSM that no fundie group comes up with theme of stopping to teach children to read – for knowing to read enables them to read books of the occult and demonic spell books.
.
@youthpastor
Don’t knock us off these pedestals, the view is great and it took some of us a long time to queue for the best spots.
.
On a more serious note – if you are teaching the kids to do unto others as they would have done unto them, be open and accepting with other people and think critically of information, then I disagree with Iron Bess. Those are not harmful teachings in my view, even if you use stories of the bible to convey them. Children are always taught through stories anyway. Here comes the question though – do you tell the children that those are NB! STORIES, that are supposed to convey messages like do not judge rashly, be not prejudiced, etc etc? And that the same morals are told in virtually every piece of literature meant for children. Ie. that the bible is not a uniquely compassionate book. That of course applies only if you extract just about the whole of the old testament and quite a few parts of the new also. If you take the bible as a whole it just about the opposite of compassionate.
.
But then – if you need to interpert an old book for which you cannot be sure of the purpose and meaning of the stories, the cohesion of the translation through dozens and dozens of languages and editions, their truth value, the author, or just about anything about them… then why not just use another book or write a new one that teaches the same things but does not carry such uncertainty about the interpretation etc. Then you would not need to explain why god said to
“anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. ” Leviticus 24:16 or
“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.” Exodus 21:7
but then changed its mind by the of caesar Augustus. I know you have exclaimed the cultural connection of the bible. It should not be taken literally. But why not use a book that can be taken literally, since a number of such books are available?
.
Two more things:
1) Yes, you are having that conversation now.
2) Please, please, please stop apologising. Your posts are long enough for our attention spans even without the apologies. If you make a remark that can be taken as an offence, don’t apologise for it. Just let us have our sarcastic fun with it and move on. On this site we take whatever you think has been insulting about your posts, to the power of 800, daily. If I trip you in the staricase I shall apologise, not if I express a view that is contrary to yours.
I try to convey to them that many of the stories originated in an oral tradition, that they were passed down from person to person orally. if you’ve ever played the game telephone you can recognize that sometimes the truth is distorted in these situations. but regardless of trying to find out the literal/historical truth, to look at the message behind the stories and get what they are trying to convey. you can’t just take one verse and quote it you have to look into the whole section. and understand it as a whole. that’s generally what i try to teach.
i’m not sure if i’m really answering your question, but i actually like to read/use the paraphrase called the Message. it places the wording of the bible to make more sense to a moden day culture. but i also use other books in teaching than just the bible. books like “Blue Like Jazz: nonreligious thoughts on christian spirituality” is a book that i love reading, but is great for teaching as well.
it’s a hard concept for some christians to realize that the bible was written by people. and that we need to look at the message of what is behind just the words of the text.
@youthpastor
Your remarks remind me of a priest I respected when I was still RC. Once before mass he commented to the altar party (not as fun as ‘party’ sounds — smile) that he’d been called to do a nursing home funeral that week and had discovered, upon arriving, that they were Greek Orthodox.
The others gasped in sympathetic horror and asked what he did. He said, “I did Greek Orthodox, but I wasn’t very happy about it.”
They clucked their tongues sadly, but I said, “I don’t think Jesus really cares.”
The others looked at me, appalled, but the priest just smiled. “Of course he doesn’t. But I do.”
.
That’s why I respected him. He knew what path was right for him and followed it faithfully. At the same time, he was able to set it aside to do a kindness for a grieving family on another path, without one word of criticism or proselytizing to them. He also understood, and accepted with humor, that there might be a difference of opinion between his opinions and those of his god. He also encouraged people to examine what they believed and why they believed it, and to take responsibility for their own lives, even within a framework of ‘obedience’.
When I concluded that I was on a different path, he sent me off with sincere good wishes.
Classy.
@Cottura 5 Minuti
“The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book.”
.
If you want to see real wailing and gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and lockstep, kneejerk, forehead vein-pulsing hysteria beyond all the bounds of blind faith, take a gander at what the uber-Christianist fundies have to say about a book (or rather, *interpretations of* a book, as most *vehemently* deny reading!) by some British writer person named JK Rowling… ;-)
@youthpastor – I seriously think that you are doing a huge disservice to the youth you councel. God does not exist, in any shape or form, there is no guiding hand, there is no pot at the end of the rainbow. The sooner mankind realizes this, the sooner we will be able to salvage some of this world.
.
Hang on, I’m just climbing back onto my pedestal…there that is better. The ONLY way this world will be better is when all religions are abolished. Not just the xians and all the fundy ilk that go with it. So you can stop feeling all victimized now. If you take a little bit of time and think about what you are saying, read something other than your religious crap, speak with and participate in discussions with people other then your day to day yes-men. And, please do it with an open mind, you will find that there could easily be a possiblity that all faith based, religious codswallop is a bunch of hooey. Hang on, I’m just climbing back off my pedestal now…there much better. IMHO
@pieces o’nine
i personally love the harry potter books. look at the whole message that good triumphs over evil. the lessons about being loyal to your friends. it’s a GREAT book for young people to read. or older people, it’s a good series, i own all the books and all the movies that are out on dvd. like i said don’t think that all christians think the same. most christians don’t even like the “uber fundies” i hate all forms of “christian tv” because the televangelists always give me this creepy feeling.
@Iron Bess
honestly i don’t think demolishing the worlds religions is the answer. we need to learn to coexist. and most of the worlds religions do that. there’s just a couple who tend to fight. mostly over petty things, and i think it’s ridiculous.
please don’t presume that because i’m a christian that all i read is christian works. i enjoy a full gamut of books christian or not. and aren’t i participating in a discussion with someone who isn’t a yes-men right now. i like talking with people with opposing views, because i want to understand where other people come from and it challenges me personally to think more independently. like now, i honestly am smiling because i feel like i’m having a good, non threatening dialogs. my closes friend who is almost like a twin sister to me is wicca. i love talking with her about religion and spirituality.
a thought just came to me. i hope no one here thinks i’m trying to convert you or anything. that’s not my goal at all. i just wante a good conversation, and i wanted everyone to know that not all christians are ‘fundies’. to be honest i feel that is happening.
i also apologize i didn’t intend for the pedestal comment to be insulting. the heart of that message was just that understanding between people of different faiths or nonfaiths is important. i’m not asking you to become christian, just understand and know that we’re not all crazy war-mongering jesus freaks.
though i hope the same goes for you or anyone else. in any case in life how sad would it be to be surrounded by only yes-men. that would be a sheltered and lonely existence, and to be honest and blunt i would HATE if that were my reality. i feel privileged to have such a diverse group of friends.
@pieces o’nine – alchemy, astrology, sorcery (or witchcraft)… who is missing from the grand club?
.
.
Drum rollllllllll…………………….IT’S CREATIONISM!
The christian opposition to Harry Potter was only a small news headline here in Finland and nothing of the sort happened here, so I was not aware of the extent to which it has apparently grown. Let us pray to the FSM that no fundie group comes up with theme of stopping to teach children to read – for knowing to read enables them to read books of the occult and demonic spell books.
.
@youthpastor
Don’t knock us off these pedestals, the view is great and it took some of us a long time to queue for the best spots.
.
On a more serious note – if you are teaching the kids to do unto others as they would have done unto them, be open and accepting with other people and think critically of information, then I disagree with Iron Bess. Those are not harmful teachings in my view, even if you use stories of the bible to convey them. Children are always taught through stories anyway. Here comes the question though – do you tell the children that those are NB! STORIES, that are supposed to convey messages like do not judge rashly, be not prejudiced, etc etc? And that the same morals are told in virtually every piece of literature meant for children. Ie. that the bible is not a uniquely compassionate book. That of course applies only if you extract just about the whole of the old testament and quite a few parts of the new also. If you take the bible as a whole it just about the opposite of compassionate.
.
But then – if you need to interpert an old book for which you cannot be sure of the purpose and meaning of the stories, the cohesion of the translation through dozens and dozens of languages and editions, their truth value, the author, or just about anything about them… then why not just use another book or write a new one that teaches the same things but does not carry such uncertainty about the interpretation etc. Then you would not need to explain why god said to
“anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. ” Leviticus 24:16 or
“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.” Exodus 21:7
but then changed its mind by the of caesar Augustus. I know you have exclaimed the cultural connection of the bible. It should not be taken literally. But why not use a book that can be taken literally, since a number of such books are available?
.
Two more things:
1) Yes, you are having that conversation now.
2) Please, please, please stop apologising. Your posts are long enough for our attention spans even without the apologies. If you make a remark that can be taken as an offence, don’t apologise for it. Just let us have our sarcastic fun with it and move on. On this site we take whatever you think has been insulting about your posts, to the power of 800, daily. If I trip you in the staricase I shall apologise, not if I express a view that is contrary to yours.
Phew… monster post!
That means to read: by the time of Ceaser Augustus.
@Cottura 5 Minuti
I try to convey to them that many of the stories originated in an oral tradition, that they were passed down from person to person orally. if you’ve ever played the game telephone you can recognize that sometimes the truth is distorted in these situations. but regardless of trying to find out the literal/historical truth, to look at the message behind the stories and get what they are trying to convey. you can’t just take one verse and quote it you have to look into the whole section. and understand it as a whole. that’s generally what i try to teach.
i’m not sure if i’m really answering your question, but i actually like to read/use the paraphrase called the Message. it places the wording of the bible to make more sense to a moden day culture. but i also use other books in teaching than just the bible. books like “Blue Like Jazz: nonreligious thoughts on christian spirituality” is a book that i love reading, but is great for teaching as well.
it’s a hard concept for some christians to realize that the bible was written by people. and that we need to look at the message of what is behind just the words of the text.
haha ok ok, no more apologizing