The New York Times has published an interesting, very long, article about the Christian evangelical movement and its ties to the Republican party. Here’s the link.
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An elaborate spoof on Intelligent Design, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is neither too elaborate nor too spoofy to succeed in nailing the fallacies of ID. It's even wackier than Jonathan Swift's suggestion that the Irish eat their children as a way to keep them from being a burden, and it may offend just as many people, but Henderson, described elsewhere as a 25-year-old "out-of-work physics major," puts satire to the same serious use that Swift did. Oh, yes, it is very funny. -- Scientific American
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It would be wishful thinking to for evangelism to implode. They destroy themselves mixing politics and religion, and are either too dense or too blind to see it.
I am glad to have been touched by His Noodly Appendages (despite my lack of height). A life of grog and piracy is much easier.
RAmen
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Don’t they lose their tax breaks when they get involved with politics.
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One of those stickers has an incorrect usage of the pronoun ‘whom’. It should say either “Who would Jesus vote for?” or “For whom would Jesus vote?”
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Just thought I’d point that out.
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St John the Blasphemist
Saint of Grammar Naziism
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*Sigh* Silly, Silly people
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The Chinese are most touched by His Noodly Appendage because they are so short, and there are lots of them, and they invented noodles in the first place. They are the very first descendants of pirates, and that’s why they are all held down by His Noodly Appendages (socalled gravity), and that’s why they are squashed to be shorter than all the rest of the world.
Since there aren’t enough Noodly Appendages to go around, and the world’s population is growing, people start to get taller. The average tallness has increased throughout time.
The Dutch people, for example, were once the tallest people in the world, which is why they are unholy in the FSM’s name.
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Somehow, Tagliatelli Priest, that logical conjecture seems somewhat out of place.
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@ St John – ya beat me to it, ya landlubber.
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@Tagliatelli Priest-I dunno ’bout that.
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@St.John – Actually, it’s “whom” either way; the usage doesn’t change (it’s an object of a preposition either way).
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“The Flying Dutchman” makes your argument a little flimsy. He is a pirate, and a holy being, practicaly a demigod.
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(@ Tagliatelli Priest)
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I had a flick through the story. Of note to me was the fact that one of these guys is now in a wheelchair. I wonder if he somehow feels cheated by his god. He probably sees this as a test of faith. However if my boss, after years of support, crippled me then passed it off as one of those “character building” excesses, I’d be a little pissed off and would probably sue as well.
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PS aren’t they always claiming that natural disasters are god’s wrath? In which case we should make a list of any personal injury and property damage that was due to the weather, and launch a massive law suite against god. As his representatives on earth the churches of the world should pay up our compensation.
I’d like to see that on one of there “get up and give” TV shows.
“The lord desperately needs your money! As he is up to his neck in court fees and legal costs!”
If there is a lawyer out there who is willing to represent please let us know I could do with the cash!
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@Doggalina
OK I looked it up. But it still sounds dumb.
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St John the Blasphemist
Saint of Language Inconsistencies.
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Fucking Rednecks.
That’s it…Rednecks are in my official “To Kill” list, along with colombian whores, colombian drug dealers, and that black guy who supports dog fighting.
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“For years, Fox flaunted his allegiance to the Republican Party, urging fellow pastors to make the same “confession” and calling them “sissies” if they didn’t. “We are the religious right,” he liked to say. “One, we are religious. Two, we are right.””
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Did you read this? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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@Pluto – Actually, there has been a recent lawsuit filed against god, asking for an injunction that orders him to stop causing natural disasters and making terorist threats. It’s been filed by a Nebraska State Senator, and here is a website with a news report:
http://www.ketv.com/news/14133442/detail.html
The Senator claims that he has filed the lawsuit as a protest against frivolous litigation, but it sounds pretty noodly to me. You might want to see if you can get his lawyer to help you with your lawsuit.
My first post! Yarr!
“Open your mind, but not so far your brain falls out”
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‘Electing Christian politicians never seemed to change much. “When you mix politics and religion,” Carlson said, “you get politics.”’ Well holy shit on a stick Batman…can you believe it!
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I find it to be quite a warm and fuzzy feeling when you get quotes like this from the right-wing religious loonies of the states. It is a good thing, as Martha used to say.
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But really that colossal article could have been summed up in just a few words – The religious righ-wing Republican bloc, is trying to distance itself from a president, who dragged the country into a losing war.
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You can bet your booties that if the war would have been like Desert Storm, over in a couple of weeks, with no casualties, then all those loons would probably be beating their chests about religion and politics.
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They are now talking about fighting poverty and AIDS and even saying that going to war is not how jeebus would have wanted things to be. Now ain’t that just a huge kick in the pants? And here I thought that to be conservative, right-wing, and born-again, meant that the only issues you were allowed to discuss (ad nauseum) was same sex marriage and abortion?
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@Ubi Dubium
That’s fantastic!
“In the lawsuit, Chambers said he’s tried to contact God numerous times.
“Plaintiff, despite reasonable efforts to effectuate personal service upon defendant ‘Come out, come out, wherever you are,’ has been unable to do so,’” Chambers said.”
“The lawsuit accuses God “of making and continuing to make terroristic threats of grave harm to innumerable persons, including constituents of Plaintiff who Plaintiff has the duty to represent.” It says God has caused “fearsome floods, egregious earthquakes, horrendous hurricanes, terrifying tornadoes, pestilential plagues, ferocious famines, devastating droughts, genocidal wars, birth defects and the like.”
The suit also says God has caused “calamitous catastrophes resulting in the wide-spread death, destruction and terrorization of millions upon millions of the Earth’s inhabitants including innocent babes, infants, children, the aged and infirm without mercy or distinction.””
And then to top it off:
“Chambers also says God “has manifested neither compassion nor remorse, proclaiming that defendant will laugh” when calamity comes.
Chambers asks for the court to grant him a summary judgment. He said as an alternative, he wants the judge to set a date for a hearing as expeditiously as possible and enter a permanent injunction enjoining God from engaging in the types of deleterious actions and the making of terroristic threats described in the lawsuit.”
Yes I think this guy is one of us. Nice to see we have a little political clout!
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@ PacificPam- Hey babe. Can you post your e-mail. I don’t have it at work.
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Tagliatelli Priest
Oct 29th, 2007 at 1:52 am
The Dutch people, for example, were once the tallest people in the world, which is why they are unholy in the FSM’s name.
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Hmpf! How rude! We are NOT unholy.
*sniff*
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panama.pamela@yahoo.com
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Hun!
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can you check your e-mail at work?
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I’m so easy when it comes to him! =)
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I’m not doing shit, my bosses are not here. I’m not doing shit, my bosses are not here. I’m not doing shit, my bosses are not here! wohooooooooooo
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Pluto, dear, are you busy? cuz I am not!
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@ PacificPam- I am right now. I’ll email you with my work address. You can send me stuff during the day that way. Careful they monitor from time to time.
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I won’t send you porn! So, no worries!
Remember that my boss lost her passport? hahaha she found it this morning, she was able to get in the plane.
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@St John & Doggalina – it’s the preposition at the end of the phrase that’s the problem. It should read
“for whom would jesus vote?” – I guess it’s an atheist Democrat campaign, pointing out the danger of voting republican. :)
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@ PacificPam- I think It’ll get that way soon.
Glad your boss is ok… and away from work;)
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Tagliatelli, your theory is totally wrong.
we dutchy’s have a great history of piracy and other seasailing stuff. Thus the great FSM decided that we we’re great enough to be left alone, and left less apendages around our country.
and Dutch people are still some of the longest in the world.
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“Dutch people are still some of the longest in the world.” Should that be tallest or are you sticking with longest cos that’s quite a boast!
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You know? English Pirates burnt down the first spanish colony in the Pacific Ocean. His name was Henry Morgan. You can still see the ruins.
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And it was in my country!
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oops, i meant tallest.
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we also got the longest, but that’s another story
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hahahaahahahaahah
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^or is he not reffering to his actuall height at all, but the length of something else altogether??
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How about – For Whom Would Jeebus Vote For? Who The Fuck Cares?
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I think he will go for the Black candidate, so people don’t say that he is a racist.
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I am liking the “Who the Fuck cares?” angle IB!
I personally like “Don’t vote, it only encourages them”
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Pluto! I just processed what your e-mail said at the bottom…are you in troubles?!
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PacificPam wrote “I won’t send you porn! So, no worries!”
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Awh, you are no fun!
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@One-eyed Wonderkin. That is his work e-mail address, I sent him some to his personal e-mail address.
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Ha! no I haven’t, no sending porn untill married. God says I will go to hell if I do it before.
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Jesus was black, you know. The racist Christians just won’t admit it.
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So you’re in Panama?
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Why would the FSM send you to hell?
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Even if it only is a short stay.
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@NoodlyONe – Racist Xians, isn’t that an oxymoron? How could people who live their lives by the sky fairy jeebus be racist? They are all about love and turning the other cheek.
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I guess sarcasm still lives on…too bad 4Xsake still isn’t kicking around.
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If you send people porn with ugly people in it, the FSM might send you to Pastafarian Hell because he thinks you like that sort of thing.
Best to send porn with beautiful people in it to avoid any confusion.
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@ IB
I mean the racist, scum, redneck ones. not the “happy-go-lucky-save-the-world”types.
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C’mon, you’ve met at least one Xian who is so bigoted you just want to break their face.
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Most Neo-Nazi, white-supremist scum are Christian…
Bigots…
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Jesus doesn’t have voting rights in the United States. He’s not a citizen.
Jesus probably wouldn’t vote for anyone, anyway.
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Jesus lived in the time of a monarchy, so he’d probably go, “wtf” at our political system.
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@NoodlyOne. Yes, I’m in Panama. Jesus was black? ohh I thought He was Yellow. Anyhow..
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McDonald’s is the nastiest way to die!
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I don’t wanna be a burger! I don’t wanna be a burger! I don’t wanna be a burger!
There is evidence that says that Jesus was black. Tell this to a Christian, it’s funny to watch them when you say that.
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wasn’t Jezus a rainbowcoloured man that whore glasses every other day and changed his body shape all the time? And if so wouldn’t he also have 2 X chromosones (don’t ask how, only god knows)
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It must be funny to see the redneck faces!
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????
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@NoodlyOne – honestly, I don’t ever remember meeting a real, true, dyed in the blue xian who is all about what they preach. If you pick the scab of peace and love, underneath is a festering, pus filled vat of poison, waiting to boil forth and contaminate (or better yet, kill) anyone who doesn’t believe what they tell you that you MUST believe.
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I don’t think that the redneck xians could possibly conceive that jeebus was anything other than the sappy, maudlin white guy they show making nice with children and sheep, on their church posters.
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Hmmmmm…children and sheep…now that explains a lot!
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@PacificPam
Yeah it’s great. they are all ” But, But, But, Jeezus is waight, laik me.”
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@ IB
It’s great to watch them. Then call them racist. Then watch them chew on that.
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@NoodlyOne. You know what I found that are as racist as rednecks? 99.9% of the black people in the US. They are the same, but in different colors.
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Be fair, 70% to 80%.
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Hahahahahaha. Ok, I will…sorry.
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But they are! Isn’t it true?
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Most are just pissed at the rednecks. Were you originally from the US?
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We just edged out everyone else from the “Recent Comments” board.
Is that good? Do we get a medal? Yaaaaarrrrrr, a medal! At last!
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But yeah, it is true. Maybe only 40% to 50%.
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Oooops!,sorry Iron Bess.
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Sorry for so many comments in a row. I’ll stop now.
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@NoodlyOne. No, I lived there for 6 months two years ago. Are we getting an “edged out people” medal? I prefer food.
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I am Latina! Arriba!
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I’m pretty much everything. Seriously, name it, I’m probably 1/16 it. Or something.
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What’s “Arriba” mean anyway? Quieres hablan en espanol?
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ahahahah that is like Horray (spelling?).
Wanna practice your spanish?
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Por favor!
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jajaaj, entonces tu eres el que vienes para Chiriquí, ¿cierto?
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Mi vocabulario es muy pequena. Lo siento if la conversacion es muy aburrido.
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Yo es 1/4 through mi 2a ano de espanol.
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para nada, no hay problema.
Pero creo que es un poco dificil leer. deberías practicar la conversación
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Spanglish es asi-asi, no?
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Yo es a slow typer tambien.
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A ver.
you have studied 2 years of spanish?
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jajajajajajaaja
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Donde esta? Esta en tu habitacion o tu oficina?
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en la oficina. Mis jefes están de viaje, se fueron para Israel.
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That sounded a little creepy, lo siento.
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your boss fueron de Israel?! Que trabajen tu?
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jajaja, no hay problema. Si, es que uno de mis jefes es judío y su hijo cumplió 13 años, así que le van a celebrar el Bar Mitzvah en Israel.
Yo trabajo en bienes y raíces.
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No problem. Yes, the thing is that one of my bosses is jew and his son just turned 13, so they are going to celebrate his Bar Mitzvah in Israel.
I work in Real Estate.
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Verdad? Mi familia es Judia
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Pero yo es un Pastafarian.
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Judio, no Judias!
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Jewish, not beans!
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hahahahaha I didn’t get that last one!
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Es Espanol tu language primero?
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Jewish, not beans?
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sip, aprendí inglés en l escuela
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judia as in “judias verdes” lo siento
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Su ingles es muy bueno!
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Necesitas tu ingles por su trabajen?
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Muchas gracias. Pluto dice que sueno como gringa.
Still don’t get the “Judias Verdes” part
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si, trabajo con 2 belgas y 4 gringos. Casi que no hablan español. La mayoría de los clientes que llegan a la oficina son extanjeros. La mayoría habla solo inglés.
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Por que “(IF)”?
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Por eso tengo que saber mucho Inglés.
ah, jajaja IF…International Foundation. Tengo un fondo que se llama “I Have to go to Fucking England (or US) to meet Pluto”, y recibo donaciones. Ahora tengo 350.00 dolares
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Su “language skills” son muy admirable.
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The same Pluto as on this site?
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Tu es rico.
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Muchas Gracias.
Mira, un idioma es mucho más fácil aprenderlo hablando que escribiendo.
Es como si fueras un bebe. Nadie en este mundo aprende a escribir antes que a hablar. Excepto unos cuantos por ahi que no hablan.
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I have to go now. It is gym day and I have to stay sexy for my englishman.
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un Placer y que tengas buenas noches.
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Same Pluto as on this site. yep
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Gracias y adios!
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FFS!!
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In the words of the Great Late Ron Burgundy (talking to Baxter, his dog) “Come again? You know I don’t speak Spanish. In English, please. What?”
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Those of you that live in the USA and consider themselves brighter than the average bulb should really try to learn some spanish I think. Since there is no official language in that country it would be very nice to try to speak not only the most common but also the 2nd most common. Also since the South American immigrants don’t all come from families that could provide their children with chances for higher education, you could try to go and meet them half way.
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Sort of like we finns do – we know that swedes are of inferior intellect so we try to learn their almost uncomrehensible singing, as they are surely not able to grasp the finer points of the substantial linguistic spectrum offered by the glorious finnish language.
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The paragraph above is a terrible joke, I know. Swedes are a really bright people. Paragraph 1 is not a joke though. Tiene que aprender español, quien vive en Estados Unides. Además si vive en el sur.
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@Cottura 5 Minuti
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You could probably include us Brits too.
Talk loudly and slowly in English is our second language.
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I can swear, order beer and ask the way to the station in a few different tongues but pointing tends to come into it eventually :D
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This is ‘way off thread, but I did see a cute cartoon somewhere that showed something like Christian/Republican/Evangelical types walking thru the Pearly Gates, and St. Peter is saying: “..I have to tell you: Aramaic is the official language here….” Do we know the natural language of The Noodly One????
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@Alchemist – What would you need to learn in the GB? Arabic, spanish, polish, or some other? Many people of smaller languages can often speak loads of languages, but that is quite natural I think. For example I wish to read what you write here. Can you think of a finnish or swedish writing you would like to read? Speaking of languages, if I ever have children I wish they would speak english, spanish and mandarin. I still need to improve my spanish and have not even started on mandarin.
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“Most Neo-Nazi, white-supremist scum are Christian…
Bigots…”
true, they claim to be Christians….but they’re not. but then again there are a lot of people who claim to be Christians and who do not act accordingly. it’s almost as if people don’t even care about Jesus’s life and an example he was. even if you’re not a Christian i hope you can be able to respect that the Jesus of the Gospels did some pretty counter cultural and cool things in his era. i’m dumbfounded that people can somehow think that Jesus (who taught about loving one another) would be okay with us picking up an AK-47 and killing other people. i just can’t picture that as being okay. Jesus’s life was about teaching people to love each other and to care for the disenfranchised. but do most Christians do that? i don’t think so, at least not in the US. we’re too consumed with making Christianity an exclusive club. while i do hold traditional views on a lot of Christian issues. i do not believe that God is okay with signs that say “God hates fags” if a Christian really believes in the resurrection of Jesus as important to their spirituality and that he did it for ALL then wouldn’t the response be, hi, we care about you. we may not agree with your lifestyle but you’re still welcome here. same with abortion, instead of the signs and protesting and even Bombing places (extremely not ok) why aren’t more Christians making half way homes for these young women who are pregnant and scared, esp the teen girls, a place where they feel safe where they can learn about what’s going on and make a decision about whether to keep the baby or to give it up for adoption, and how to parent a child…
ok i apologize i got on a soapbox. but i’m a christian, and sometimes i’m embarrassed to call myself that because some of the extreme fundamentalists give us all a bad rap….
random thought, okay so creationism being taught in schools, cool, that’s fine with me, evolution being taught, also cool. i wonder if they ever link the two, i mean can evolution be the means of intelligent design?
wow, i ranted alot, i hope i didn’t offend anyone. i like the website, i think it’s a GREAT idea. and to be honest, i think more christians need to be offended. it makes them get off their lazy asses and actually think about what they believe.
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Cottura – I studied Latin at school. That’s one language the English speakers should have a background in.
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Yes – I see your point. English (well, at least the American version of it) is ubiquitous – I’m one of the lucky ones, it’s my first language.
“Can you think of a finnish or swedish writing you would like to read? “
Erm… not off hand :D
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@Alchemist ‘“Can you think of a finnish or swedish writing you would like to read? “
Erm… not off hand :D’
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So I guess I made my point. Most of what is worth reading will be translated into english in a flash. And you know latin – that should make spanish and french much much easier to learn should you wish to do so. The more languages you know the easier it gets to learn more – though you do mix them up sometimes.
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for additional information, i’m a democrat, and a pacifist…. and if we really want to look at Jesus historically speaking and not the perfect white Jesus that the church typically portrays, he would have looked middle eastern and i’ve heard a few credible scholars say he was probably pretty homely as well. people unfortunately are just scared of what is different. sad really. i think that if Jesus were to come back today he would be really disappointed at what the church as a whole has become
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Oh my – wrote a long reply to youthpastor and it did not go through…
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@Cottura 5 Minuti
I’m gonna hazard a guess and say that you’ve never seen Anchorman…
I do know other languages (french and German plus a little bit of Latin and Greek). I might have considered learning Spanish, but I am horrible at learning foreign (or any) languages, I have no particular interest in learning a new language (I’d rather learn Chemistry, Physics, or Oceanography), and living in the rural upper Midwest as I do, I don’t know anybody that speaks Spanish as a first language. If I lived in Europe, or anywhere where a 20hr. drive could take me to a place with a different main language, I would try harder, but as it stands, I don’t have the time/ability.
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Hi youtpastor – I suspect your right. The Jesus from scripture sounded like a nice guy to me.
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add an e and an apostrophe :D
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Is there some sort of filter that is blocking my lengthy response to youthpastor?
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i dont know. weird tho, i’m not really easily offended so whatever you said i’d be really interested to read it
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Cottura 5 Minuti, sorry, i want to apologize, i was assuming it was going to be something that would be an attempt to offend me. i’m sorry, it was presumptuous and rude.
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@youth pastor.
How in the world would any scholar know that Jesus was homely?
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@El Peatieablo
Good guess – have not seen anchorman. And judging by your answer you already know 5 languages (including English) so you cannot be poor at learning them. It also seems that you have learned your own language at least moderately well – I cannot tell better by this length of writings. Knowing your own language well is not by any means a given. Learning it also requires skill and effort.
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@youthpastor
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“okay so creationism being taught in schools, cool, that’s fine with me, evolution being taught, also cool. i wonder if they ever link the two, i mean can evolution be the means of intelligent design?”
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The point is not so much whether or not creationism is taught, but IN WHICH CLASS it is taught. In science, religion, literature, history? Or something else? I live in Finland and was taught creationism at school from around the age of 6 to 13. So I was appallingly young when it started. It was taught to me in religion though and only because my parents had me baptised lutheran and hence I had to attend religion class. It was not such a brainwashing experience as it might sound, for the way it was tought at my school (I think most scandinavian schools are like this) was not as the ultimate truth but as the biblical version.
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Part 1 through… lets see about part 2…
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I shall not inspect more thoroughly your feelings about what is cool unless you want to take a standpoint on the issue of what the forum is within school. Though I am not cool with creationism being taught at school even its mellowed down scandinavian style – but that is not a major problem.
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The second question of whether evolution and ID could be linked – well supposedly any phenomena in the universe could be explained in the most bizarre ways if you wish to do so, and ID is probably not the most bizarre explenation of all time. A more relevent question is why would one like to explain phenomena through bizarre fabrications. Look up Occam’s razor – often referenced on this site also. There is no need to link anything supernatural to the development of life or the universe – why do so then?
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Through – I guess it was a server error or something of that sort since I did not edit it one bit.
@youthpastor – no offense taken
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Enjoy the lengthy response.
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@eddie spaghetti
if i remember right, it’s something that is inferred by some of the usage of greek in the new testament. i honestly can’t remember where or how so if you want to strike that part it’s fine. i just remember a discussion on it in a theology class i had in college.
@Cottura 5 Minuti
For me, it’s more about my faith. i firmly believe that on some level God did create the universe. how he managed to create the universe i’m not sure. and you are right. science class is perhaps not the best place to teach ID… religion, philosophy, even literary classes would be better.
i tend to view the biblical story of creation less of historical fact and more of a literary work. there are 2 accounts of creation within the book of Genesis, and i believe the purpose for that is to tell the same story (God created the universe) to different audiences.
Paul the apostle who wrote the new testament often did this. he wrote a message in different way in different books to make the message more relevant to the people to whom he was writing.
i’m obviously not a literalist when it comes to the bible, i’m actually kind of annoyed by people who read scripture and take it only for it’s face value (my family does this often). to get the original intent you have to look at who the scripture was written to and why it was written. most often than not Christians don’t do this because they just want to make scripture mean what they want it to mean.
okay i’m sory again. i have a touch of ADD and can get off topic easily
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@youthpastor
No need apologise, on this site many of us specialise in straying off topic.
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Returning to the issue at hand. I’m not sure I totally comprehend your meaning, but I’ll assume you are saying that it does not matter that the bible is not true literally, the fundamentalist way, but it is the underlining story that matters. This is actually the official view of the Finnish lutheran church as far as I know and it seemed sensible to me to some degree for a long time. Then I started to really dwell into it, and found it to actually be absolutely absurd.
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If a scientific study should have – for instance – 5% of the content easily proven to be false, I would be extremely sceptical about the rest. Saying that the underlining story is true though the facts are not is a great absurdity. The underlining story draws conclusions from and parses together the facts. If the facts are only about 90% true, the underlining story is almost bound to have made false conslusions. I would not choose the colour of my shoes according to a text that had major amounts of false information – and some people actually base much of their lives on such text.
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Let us suggest that a text is not in any way scientific. Why should it then be treated different from everyday novels? I will not give special priveleges to people or associations who like the philosophy of “Odysseus” or “The Diary of Bridget Jones”.
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Good gravy. That’s a lot of unnecessary research right there. I can sum up the whole article in a couple paragraphs.
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In unrelated news, “unnecessary” is really hard to spell off the top of your head.
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a lot of the christian faith is based upon just that faith. more than fact, for me that is anyways, the underlying message of scripture and the life death and resurrection of Jesus along with so much more. it is less of trying to figure out the historical accuracy of the bible but more searching for the context in which it was written. what was going on in the culture? why would the early fathers of the faith feel that it’s necessary to write things this way. how would the people of the time understood this. Christianity is also about experience, though it is not held more important than scripture, but that one experiences God through a variety of ways.
for me personally it’s not an issue of trying to make sure it’s completely scientifically correct. i believe i’ve experienced God love through different circumstances in my life. and as a response i am trying to learn about and be more like the savior in whom i claim to be God. in a way i experience God through helping people, serving others. not the stereotypical evangelism where you force God down someone’s throat, but in just being a servant, helping people without any expectations of anything in return. i find true joy in that, and believe that i am experiencing God through that.
it’s a personal preference i suppose. but more than just believing blindly one that requires lots of thought and research and careful study and discussion. i suppose this is absurd to some people. yet still, i think that even for people who aren’t christians there are some really great lessons that can be learned from the life of Jesus. he was an activist in his day, championing for the disenfranchised, that’s what is inspiring to me.
anyway hey if you write back i may check here tomorrow at some point, but it’s about 6:30pm and i am getting a bit hungry and tired so i’m going to leave my office. but i’m open to continuing the dialogue. ya know, i think sometimes i grow more in my understanding of my faith when i talk with non christians than with christians. just because people who aren’t christians actually will challenge me and make me think. anyways it was good talking to ya. have a good night! or morning. i’m not sure of the time difference between us… i’m in california
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Youthpastor: Personally, I’m fairly certain that Jesus (who most likely existed, at least as a man) was lying about the “Son of God” part in order to distinguish himself from the Jewish school of thought. This is in Israel two thousand years ago, anything that went against Jewish law was completely revolutionary.
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In that sense, Jesus was a liar, but he used that lie to spread his message of peace and loving your neighbor as yourself. He used God almost as a footstool- “Do what I’m telling you and you’ll be with God for eternity.” Of course he attracted followers, he was a pretty convincing speaker in the ways that he backsassed the Pharisees. Of course, this lead to his own death, but he knew he was going to die for what he was doing before he even started. He probably preplanned the whole “empty tomb” controversy by leaving the Apostles directions as well.
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Jesus was a cool guy and he had some cool things to say. However, he didn’t need any divine intervention to do what he accomplished. Accepting that Jesus was probably lying and preplanning his death lets everything fall into place logically. Most Christians just explain all this by saying “He could do it because he was God,” which for me is inadequate. As long as there is a possibility that Jesus wasn’t God, I’m not going to put blind faith in favor of reason.
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@youthpastor
You can see the FSM anywhere you want. Pray to him if you need to go to the toilet in the middle of a movie but can’t. If you make it through it was because of the touch of the noodly appendage.
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There are lots of good teachings in the new testament. Teachings that make life on this planet more pleasant for everyone. The danger is when you forhet to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book. The nazi atrocities were possible due largely to effective bureaucracy. The bureaucrats could have stopped them but did not. They just did what they were told – in hindsight one might still think they were responsible, for it is everyone’s own responsibility to think of their actions. And listening to a bible quote is not critical thinking.
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This is one of the best parts about atheism (and pastafarianism too). One must think for oneself. I quote Richard Dawkins: “Organizing atheists has been compared to herding cats, because they tend to think independently and will not conform to authority.”
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I hope you appreciate the irony about the quote. I’ll check back here when I have time tomorrow evening or the day after.
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@Cottura 5 Minuti Oct 29th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
“The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book.”
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Yes! :( It must be so much less taxing on the brain cells to just make like another one of the sheep, just following along and swallowing everything someone else feeds you. A case of, to them anyway, ignorance is bliss.
I always see fundies…or any who lean heavily on religious belief to account for everything that happens in their lives……as those who are too lazy to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. Whatever happens in their life can be blamed their deities will.
Forget indeed to think for themselves indeed….a case of “use it or lose it”
Assuming they were ever taught to be able to think for themselves and make their own decisions in the first place!
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Please remove unnecessary duplicated words. :)
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Saludos, PacificPam:
Dos amigos enseñan español (entre otras idiomas). Uno de ellos me invitó en un viaje con sus estudiantes en America Central, ¡si juré solemnemente para no hablar español allí! ja ja ja.
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(Espero que esto diga lo que signifiqué decir…) ;-)
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@ PacificPam (IF) + Noodly0ne.
El discurso en una lengua que el resto de nosotros no pueda entender sea un poco grosero y espeluznante, pero tengo gusto grosero y espeluznante así que él es aceptable con mí. Tengo mi propia manera de conseguir a través de la barrera linguística. El PAM, nada se ha dicho a mí sobre el E-mail; ¡Puedo estar en el claro! Como dije que el intercambio sexual me no incomodo, pero el pedacito de la mala hierba podría conseguirme en mierda. Probablemente lo más mejor posible si es nether de nosotros las drogas de la mención en nuestros E-maices wile estoy en trabajo. Usted toma a bebé del cuidado y miro adelante a mis E-maices hoy. El tuyo, el Pluto siempre dulce.
Hope that makes sense, if not it’ll be funnier
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¿La traducción pudo haber conseguido cogido poco para arriba!?
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Quiero llenar con la crema, lo cubra en el chocolate y comer le gusta de un éclair.
Is that better?
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@Pluto. I thinks it was a little translated with some portuguese but no problem. That was really cute. I will teach you some spahish. =)hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahaahahaahahahahahaahahahahaaha
I am so glad to read that there are a few spanish speakers here. I apologize if I was rude and was talking in another language.
@pieced o’ nine. let me see you have some friends that teach spanish and they invited to Central America, but you swear to not speak spanish?
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hahahahahahaha Is that some sort of sexyal innuendo?
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uhhh sexy!
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Sexy insinuaciones es mi especialidad. Estoy haciendo trampas y el uso de un traductor. Poco como usar una frase libro me temo. Me encantaría que si me enseñó el inglés; Seguro de que me puede enseñar mucho más ;)
Como hago para que el esfuerzo se que puedo
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I am sorry. I didn’t understand that part! Some translators are not good.
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@PacificPam:
eh; I don’t want to intrude on your moment with Pluto!
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I’m drawing on high school Spanish, so it’s shaky. I enjoyed devising horrible, college student-quality ‘translations’, such as ‘vasos de los ojos’ for ‘eyeglasses’, just to watch one of them wince. (laughs evilly) She said most people have to *pay* her to listen to terrible Spanish. Thus, I had to swear to not mangle the language if I decided to go on the trip. ;-)
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Ella dijo, “Repítate: no estoy con ella.”
Contesté, “Estoy con ella.”
“¡No! Repítate: NO ESTOY con ella.”
Contesté, “Mais oui, estoy con ella. Ja ja ja.”
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Sadly, my forays into German are even worse. Apparently, I actually frightened her German-instructor colleague when I spontaneously attempted a joke. I thought I was being hilarious. He thought I was saying something about eating his legs. Teachers. They’re so touchy… ;-)
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@Wench Nikkiee
not all of the christian community are fundamentalists. (i hope you all know that) it’s unfortunate that some of the crazies are the loudest ones. and i do often feel like many people believe that all christians are like that. but i do kinda agree with you, rather than wrestling with what they claim to believe and work things out for themselves they just buy into whatever the popular belief is. which saddens me.
personally, i do take responsibility for the bad stuff that happens to me. generally it’s my own fault. i have a free will to choose to make good decisions or bad ones. i do think though that even when i make bad decisions God can make some good come out of it.
another place i feel the church fails as a whole is getting people to REALLY think for themselves. some christians feel that independent thought is scary because people might not conform to the norm anymore. churches don’t like to say that it’s okay to doubt God. but honestly i think God would be okay with it. but to alot of churches if you say you doubt God then WHAM you’re a heathen or some stupid crap. not the case with me. independant thought is vital to who i am, and i encourage it from the kids in the youth group i lead. though i tend to already fall a little bit away from the norm anyways. (being a pacifist and a democrat doesn’t sit so well with a family in the midwest US)
i do often doubt the existence of God. something usually reminds me why i believe. regardless though i still think the teachings of Jesus (whether you think he was God or not) can be a pretty positive force in the world.
aside from that, i don’t know i feel that there has to be more to this world than just what it is.
look at how intricate the universe is. i don’t think it just happened. i think God has guided it, whether that was the big bang/evolution or whatever.
here’s my point i suppose. not all christians want to judge others. don’t take us for face value or buy into stereotypes. stereotypes are lame anyways, they reinforce negative views of a group of people. yeah some christians are douche bags, i apologize for that, but before you decide that we’re all weak minded, please step down from your pedestal. i’ll step down from mine too. and maybe just maybe we could be friends. the only way things on this planet are going to get any better is if we work together rather than bashing each other all the time.
@Cottura 5 Minuti
“The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book.
AMEN! i kinda explained why earlier. but it’s also a problem with reading any book that was written in/for a culture outside of your own. we have the tendency to want to interpret as though it was written for the now. rather than reading and understanding why it was written for the culture in the time it was written. it is dangerous and some people bastardize the true meaning of what some of the scriptures would have meant to the people they have written to, and thus should really mean to us
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@youthpastor
Your remarks remind me of a priest I respected when I was still RC. Once before mass he commented to the altar party (not as fun as ‘party’ sounds — smile) that he’d been called to do a nursing home funeral that week and had discovered, upon arriving, that they were Greek Orthodox.
The others gasped in sympathetic horror and asked what he did. He said, “I did Greek Orthodox, but I wasn’t very happy about it.”
They clucked their tongues sadly, but I said, “I don’t think Jesus really cares.”
The others looked at me, appalled, but the priest just smiled. “Of course he doesn’t. But I do.”
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That’s why I respected him. He knew what path was right for him and followed it faithfully. At the same time, he was able to set it aside to do a kindness for a grieving family on another path, without one word of criticism or proselytizing to them. He also understood, and accepted with humor, that there might be a difference of opinion between his opinions and those of his god. He also encouraged people to examine what they believed and why they believed it, and to take responsibility for their own lives, even within a framework of ‘obedience’.
When I concluded that I was on a different path, he sent me off with sincere good wishes.
Classy.
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@Cottura 5 Minuti
“The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book.”
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If you want to see real wailing and gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and lockstep, kneejerk, forehead vein-pulsing hysteria beyond all the bounds of blind faith, take a gander at what the uber-Christianist fundies have to say about a book (or rather, *interpretations of* a book, as most *vehemently* deny reading!) by some British writer person named JK Rowling… ;-)
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@youthpastor – I seriously think that you are doing a huge disservice to the youth you councel. God does not exist, in any shape or form, there is no guiding hand, there is no pot at the end of the rainbow. The sooner mankind realizes this, the sooner we will be able to salvage some of this world.
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Hang on, I’m just climbing back onto my pedestal…there that is better. The ONLY way this world will be better is when all religions are abolished. Not just the xians and all the fundy ilk that go with it. So you can stop feeling all victimized now. If you take a little bit of time and think about what you are saying, read something other than your religious crap, speak with and participate in discussions with people other then your day to day yes-men. And, please do it with an open mind, you will find that there could easily be a possiblity that all faith based, religious codswallop is a bunch of hooey. Hang on, I’m just climbing back off my pedestal now…there much better. IMHO
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@pieces o’nine
i personally love the harry potter books. look at the whole message that good triumphs over evil. the lessons about being loyal to your friends. it’s a GREAT book for young people to read. or older people, it’s a good series, i own all the books and all the movies that are out on dvd. like i said don’t think that all christians think the same. most christians don’t even like the “uber fundies” i hate all forms of “christian tv” because the televangelists always give me this creepy feeling.
@Iron Bess
honestly i don’t think demolishing the worlds religions is the answer. we need to learn to coexist. and most of the worlds religions do that. there’s just a couple who tend to fight. mostly over petty things, and i think it’s ridiculous.
please don’t presume that because i’m a christian that all i read is christian works. i enjoy a full gamut of books christian or not. and aren’t i participating in a discussion with someone who isn’t a yes-men right now. i like talking with people with opposing views, because i want to understand where other people come from and it challenges me personally to think more independently. like now, i honestly am smiling because i feel like i’m having a good, non threatening dialogs. my closes friend who is almost like a twin sister to me is wicca. i love talking with her about religion and spirituality.
a thought just came to me. i hope no one here thinks i’m trying to convert you or anything. that’s not my goal at all. i just wante a good conversation, and i wanted everyone to know that not all christians are ‘fundies’. to be honest i feel that is happening.
i also apologize i didn’t intend for the pedestal comment to be insulting. the heart of that message was just that understanding between people of different faiths or nonfaiths is important. i’m not asking you to become christian, just understand and know that we’re not all crazy war-mongering jesus freaks.
though i hope the same goes for you or anyone else. in any case in life how sad would it be to be surrounded by only yes-men. that would be a sheltered and lonely existence, and to be honest and blunt i would HATE if that were my reality. i feel privileged to have such a diverse group of friends.
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@pieces o’nine – alchemy, astrology, sorcery (or witchcraft)… who is missing from the grand club?
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Drum rollllllllll…………………….IT’S CREATIONISM!
The christian opposition to Harry Potter was only a small news headline here in Finland and nothing of the sort happened here, so I was not aware of the extent to which it has apparently grown. Let us pray to the FSM that no fundie group comes up with theme of stopping to teach children to read – for knowing to read enables them to read books of the occult and demonic spell books.
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@youthpastor
Don’t knock us off these pedestals, the view is great and it took some of us a long time to queue for the best spots.
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On a more serious note – if you are teaching the kids to do unto others as they would have done unto them, be open and accepting with other people and think critically of information, then I disagree with Iron Bess. Those are not harmful teachings in my view, even if you use stories of the bible to convey them. Children are always taught through stories anyway. Here comes the question though – do you tell the children that those are NB! STORIES, that are supposed to convey messages like do not judge rashly, be not prejudiced, etc etc? And that the same morals are told in virtually every piece of literature meant for children. Ie. that the bible is not a uniquely compassionate book. That of course applies only if you extract just about the whole of the old testament and quite a few parts of the new also. If you take the bible as a whole it just about the opposite of compassionate.
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But then – if you need to interpert an old book for which you cannot be sure of the purpose and meaning of the stories, the cohesion of the translation through dozens and dozens of languages and editions, their truth value, the author, or just about anything about them… then why not just use another book or write a new one that teaches the same things but does not carry such uncertainty about the interpretation etc. Then you would not need to explain why god said to
“anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. ” Leviticus 24:16 or
“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.” Exodus 21:7
but then changed its mind by the of caesar Augustus. I know you have exclaimed the cultural connection of the bible. It should not be taken literally. But why not use a book that can be taken literally, since a number of such books are available?
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Two more things:
1) Yes, you are having that conversation now.
2) Please, please, please stop apologising. Your posts are long enough for our attention spans even without the apologies. If you make a remark that can be taken as an offence, don’t apologise for it. Just let us have our sarcastic fun with it and move on. On this site we take whatever you think has been insulting about your posts, to the power of 800, daily. If I trip you in the staricase I shall apologise, not if I express a view that is contrary to yours.
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Phew… monster post!
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That means to read: by the time of Ceaser Augustus.
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@Cottura 5 Minuti
I try to convey to them that many of the stories originated in an oral tradition, that they were passed down from person to person orally. if you’ve ever played the game telephone you can recognize that sometimes the truth is distorted in these situations. but regardless of trying to find out the literal/historical truth, to look at the message behind the stories and get what they are trying to convey. you can’t just take one verse and quote it you have to look into the whole section. and understand it as a whole. that’s generally what i try to teach.
i’m not sure if i’m really answering your question, but i actually like to read/use the paraphrase called the Message. it places the wording of the bible to make more sense to a moden day culture. but i also use other books in teaching than just the bible. books like “Blue Like Jazz: nonreligious thoughts on christian spirituality” is a book that i love reading, but is great for teaching as well.
it’s a hard concept for some christians to realize that the bible was written by people. and that we need to look at the message of what is behind just the words of the text.
haha ok ok, no more apologizing
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@youthpastor
Having quoten earlier some of the pleasantries of the Moses part of the bible I must say, that seems to be the message of the first books in the bible. The israelites went hither and did this, god helped them kill their opposition. One israelite did something wrong and god ordered the most unjust punishment imaginable. God selected a favourite and killed all of mankind save one family and a handful of animals. Though I offered 2 single line quotes, they were not in any way taken out of context I think. And when you pick up a book and start reading, where do you start? The beginning! The part where god commits atrocities that would have left Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Mugabe and the lot gasping for air and telling him/her to go to hell for what he/she has done. What a wonderful thing to read, should anyone of your students ever pick up the book and start reading.
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I am glad that you use other books. This part about the message is still puzzling to me. How can one talk about a message of a book that has so many contradictory messages and is unbelievably inaccurate about the facts? This will not make any difference for sure, but would it not be better to just pick up Plato’s works and talk about his stories that concern virtues? They are mostly the same that are held in esteem by modern moderate christians. Moreover, the literary style is far superior and if you need explanations, he explains his meaning very clearly himself. Aristotle is a mess to read, but might also be a nice addition.
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It seems however, that your views are such that I could send a child of mine to a camp arranged by you, if I had children and there was no viable atheist camp. I am glad that you seem not to share the views of the hebrew god, one of the most evil characters in literature.
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@youthpastor – I can honestly say that your use of the term ‘pedestal’ was not taken as an insult. To be frank, the moniker you have chosen is what really annoys me. These days I can go from mildly annoyed to extremely aggravated whenever I encounter someone who blatantly announces to the world that A) She/he deals with children, and B) Discusses religion with them like it is real.
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Children are our most precious commodity, and I think that it is unconscionable to fill their little, impressionable heads with false information and ideas that will be detrimental to their whole lives. Unlike some people here, I personally would rather cut off my arm before sending my children to any camp which taught belief in invisible sky fairies. I don’t care what kind of way you paraphrase things.
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If I were to tell you that on a regular basis I speak with a little green gnome who sits in the corner of my office and hiccoughs, you would probably have me committed. I could still be screaming about the truth of the matter as they cart me away. And, they would be carting me away, unless my green gnome suddenly appeared to everyone. But having said that, your weird, insane ideas of an all knowing, omnipotent deity, is just as unprovable and crazy to me. You absolutely cannot prove any of it, so how, in all conscience, can you sit down and speak to children about your beliefs? And, in my opinion, infest them with that disease?
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Earlier in one of your posts you said that we should not eradicate the world of religion because most of the religions get along. You said that there were only a few who were causing all the problems. You my friend, have your head buried so far in the sand only your butt is sticking out. Wake up and smell the jihads!
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