Comments on: NYTimes - The Evangelical Crackup http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm Sun, 06 Jul 2008 07:23:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: Roberta http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-246487 Roberta Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:05:26 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-246487 <strong>Roberta...</strong> \"...For example, my customers can call the phone number listed on my website and reach a human operator (rather than just a recorded message) at any time of the day or night...\"... Roberta…

\”…For example, my customers can call the phone number listed on my website and reach a human operator (rather than just a recorded message) at any time of the day or night…\”…

]]> By: Iron Bess http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-222492 Iron Bess Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:58:26 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-222492 @youthpastor – I can honestly say that your use of the term ‘pedestal’ was not taken as an insult. To be frank, the moniker you have chosen is what really annoys me. These days I can go from mildly annoyed to extremely aggravated whenever I encounter someone who blatantly announces to the world that A) She/he deals with children, and B) Discusses religion with them like it is real. . Children are our most precious commodity, and I think that it is unconscionable to fill their little, impressionable heads with false information and ideas that will be detrimental to their whole lives. Unlike some people here, I personally would rather cut off my arm before sending my children to any camp which taught belief in invisible sky fairies. I don’t care what kind of way you paraphrase things. . If I were to tell you that on a regular basis I speak with a little green gnome who sits in the corner of my office and hiccoughs, you would probably have me committed. I could still be screaming about the truth of the matter as they cart me away. And, they would be carting me away, unless my green gnome suddenly appeared to everyone. But having said that, your weird, insane ideas of an all knowing, omnipotent deity, is just as unprovable and crazy to me. You absolutely cannot prove any of it, so how, in all conscience, can you sit down and speak to children about your beliefs? And, in my opinion, infest them with that disease? . Earlier in one of your posts you said that we should not eradicate the world of religion because most of the religions get along. You said that there were only a few who were causing all the problems. You my friend, have your head buried so far in the sand only your butt is sticking out. Wake up and smell the jihads! @youthpastor – I can honestly say that your use of the term ‘pedestal’ was not taken as an insult. To be frank, the moniker you have chosen is what really annoys me. These days I can go from mildly annoyed to extremely aggravated whenever I encounter someone who blatantly announces to the world that A) She/he deals with children, and B) Discusses religion with them like it is real.
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Children are our most precious commodity, and I think that it is unconscionable to fill their little, impressionable heads with false information and ideas that will be detrimental to their whole lives. Unlike some people here, I personally would rather cut off my arm before sending my children to any camp which taught belief in invisible sky fairies. I don’t care what kind of way you paraphrase things.
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If I were to tell you that on a regular basis I speak with a little green gnome who sits in the corner of my office and hiccoughs, you would probably have me committed. I could still be screaming about the truth of the matter as they cart me away. And, they would be carting me away, unless my green gnome suddenly appeared to everyone. But having said that, your weird, insane ideas of an all knowing, omnipotent deity, is just as unprovable and crazy to me. You absolutely cannot prove any of it, so how, in all conscience, can you sit down and speak to children about your beliefs? And, in my opinion, infest them with that disease?
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Earlier in one of your posts you said that we should not eradicate the world of religion because most of the religions get along. You said that there were only a few who were causing all the problems. You my friend, have your head buried so far in the sand only your butt is sticking out. Wake up and smell the jihads!

]]> By: Cottura 5 Minuti http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221794 Cottura 5 Minuti Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:31:13 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221794 @youthpastor Having quoten earlier some of the pleasantries of the Moses part of the bible I must say, that seems to be the message of the first books in the bible. The israelites went hither and did this, god helped them kill their opposition. One israelite did something wrong and god ordered the most unjust punishment imaginable. God selected a favourite and killed all of mankind save one family and a handful of animals. Though I offered 2 single line quotes, they were not in any way taken out of context I think. And when you pick up a book and start reading, where do you start? The beginning! The part where god commits atrocities that would have left Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Mugabe and the lot gasping for air and telling him/her to go to hell for what he/she has done. What a wonderful thing to read, should anyone of your students ever pick up the book and start reading. . I am glad that you use other books. This part about the message is still puzzling to me. How can one talk about a message of a book that has so many contradictory messages and is unbelievably inaccurate about the facts? This will not make any difference for sure, but would it not be better to just pick up Plato's works and talk about his stories that concern virtues? They are mostly the same that are held in esteem by modern moderate christians. Moreover, the literary style is far superior and if you need explanations, he explains his meaning very clearly himself. Aristotle is a mess to read, but might also be a nice addition. . It seems however, that your views are such that I could send a child of mine to a camp arranged by you, if I had children and there was no viable atheist camp. I am glad that you seem not to share the views of the hebrew god, one of the most evil characters in literature. @youthpastor
Having quoten earlier some of the pleasantries of the Moses part of the bible I must say, that seems to be the message of the first books in the bible. The israelites went hither and did this, god helped them kill their opposition. One israelite did something wrong and god ordered the most unjust punishment imaginable. God selected a favourite and killed all of mankind save one family and a handful of animals. Though I offered 2 single line quotes, they were not in any way taken out of context I think. And when you pick up a book and start reading, where do you start? The beginning! The part where god commits atrocities that would have left Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Mugabe and the lot gasping for air and telling him/her to go to hell for what he/she has done. What a wonderful thing to read, should anyone of your students ever pick up the book and start reading.
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I am glad that you use other books. This part about the message is still puzzling to me. How can one talk about a message of a book that has so many contradictory messages and is unbelievably inaccurate about the facts? This will not make any difference for sure, but would it not be better to just pick up Plato’s works and talk about his stories that concern virtues? They are mostly the same that are held in esteem by modern moderate christians. Moreover, the literary style is far superior and if you need explanations, he explains his meaning very clearly himself. Aristotle is a mess to read, but might also be a nice addition.
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It seems however, that your views are such that I could send a child of mine to a camp arranged by you, if I had children and there was no viable atheist camp. I am glad that you seem not to share the views of the hebrew god, one of the most evil characters in literature.

]]> By: youthpastor http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221784 youthpastor Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:07:13 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221784 @Cottura 5 Minuti I try to convey to them that many of the stories originated in an oral tradition, that they were passed down from person to person orally. if you've ever played the game telephone you can recognize that sometimes the truth is distorted in these situations. but regardless of trying to find out the literal/historical truth, to look at the message behind the stories and get what they are trying to convey. you can't just take one verse and quote it you have to look into the whole section. and understand it as a whole. that's generally what i try to teach. i'm not sure if i'm really answering your question, but i actually like to read/use the paraphrase called the Message. it places the wording of the bible to make more sense to a moden day culture. but i also use other books in teaching than just the bible. books like "Blue Like Jazz: nonreligious thoughts on christian spirituality" is a book that i love reading, but is great for teaching as well. it's a hard concept for some christians to realize that the bible was written by people. and that we need to look at the message of what is behind just the words of the text. haha ok ok, no more apologizing @Cottura 5 Minuti

I try to convey to them that many of the stories originated in an oral tradition, that they were passed down from person to person orally. if you’ve ever played the game telephone you can recognize that sometimes the truth is distorted in these situations. but regardless of trying to find out the literal/historical truth, to look at the message behind the stories and get what they are trying to convey. you can’t just take one verse and quote it you have to look into the whole section. and understand it as a whole. that’s generally what i try to teach.

i’m not sure if i’m really answering your question, but i actually like to read/use the paraphrase called the Message. it places the wording of the bible to make more sense to a moden day culture. but i also use other books in teaching than just the bible. books like “Blue Like Jazz: nonreligious thoughts on christian spirituality” is a book that i love reading, but is great for teaching as well.

it’s a hard concept for some christians to realize that the bible was written by people. and that we need to look at the message of what is behind just the words of the text.

haha ok ok, no more apologizing

]]> By: Cottura 5 Minuti http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221743 Cottura 5 Minuti Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:00:10 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221743 That means to read: by the time of Ceaser Augustus. That means to read: by the time of Ceaser Augustus.

]]> By: Cottura 5 Minuti http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221741 Cottura 5 Minuti Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:55:46 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221741 Phew... monster post! Phew… monster post!

]]> By: Cottura 5 Minuti http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221740 Cottura 5 Minuti Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:55:28 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221740 @pieces o'nine - alchemy, astrology, sorcery (or witchcraft)... who is missing from the grand club? . . Drum rollllllllll.........................IT'S CREATIONISM! The christian opposition to Harry Potter was only a small news headline here in Finland and nothing of the sort happened here, so I was not aware of the extent to which it has apparently grown. Let us pray to the FSM that no fundie group comes up with theme of stopping to teach children to read - for knowing to read enables them to read books of the occult and demonic spell books. . @youthpastor Don't knock us off these pedestals, the view is great and it took some of us a long time to queue for the best spots. . On a more serious note - if you are teaching the kids to do unto others as they would have done unto them, be open and accepting with other people and think critically of information, then I disagree with Iron Bess. Those are not harmful teachings in my view, even if you use stories of the bible to convey them. Children are always taught through stories anyway. Here comes the question though - do you tell the children that those are NB! STORIES, that are supposed to convey messages like do not judge rashly, be not prejudiced, etc etc? And that the same morals are told in virtually every piece of literature meant for children. Ie. that the bible is not a uniquely compassionate book. That of course applies only if you extract just about the whole of the old testament and quite a few parts of the new also. If you take the bible as a whole it just about the opposite of compassionate. . But then - if you need to interpert an old book for which you cannot be sure of the purpose and meaning of the stories, the cohesion of the translation through dozens and dozens of languages and editions, their truth value, the author, or just about anything about them... then why not just use another book or write a new one that teaches the same things but does not carry such uncertainty about the interpretation etc. Then you would not need to explain why god said to "anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. " Leviticus 24:16 or "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do." Exodus 21:7 but then changed its mind by the of caesar Augustus. I know you have exclaimed the cultural connection of the bible. It should not be taken literally. But why not use a book that can be taken literally, since a number of such books are available? . Two more things: 1) Yes, you are having that conversation now. 2) Please, please, please stop apologising. Your posts are long enough for our attention spans even without the apologies. If you make a remark that can be taken as an offence, don't apologise for it. Just let us have our sarcastic fun with it and move on. On this site we take whatever you think has been insulting about your posts, to the power of 800, daily. If I trip you in the staricase I shall apologise, not if I express a view that is contrary to yours. @pieces o’nine - alchemy, astrology, sorcery (or witchcraft)… who is missing from the grand club?
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Drum rollllllllll…………………….IT’S CREATIONISM!
The christian opposition to Harry Potter was only a small news headline here in Finland and nothing of the sort happened here, so I was not aware of the extent to which it has apparently grown. Let us pray to the FSM that no fundie group comes up with theme of stopping to teach children to read - for knowing to read enables them to read books of the occult and demonic spell books.
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@youthpastor
Don’t knock us off these pedestals, the view is great and it took some of us a long time to queue for the best spots.
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On a more serious note - if you are teaching the kids to do unto others as they would have done unto them, be open and accepting with other people and think critically of information, then I disagree with Iron Bess. Those are not harmful teachings in my view, even if you use stories of the bible to convey them. Children are always taught through stories anyway. Here comes the question though - do you tell the children that those are NB! STORIES, that are supposed to convey messages like do not judge rashly, be not prejudiced, etc etc? And that the same morals are told in virtually every piece of literature meant for children. Ie. that the bible is not a uniquely compassionate book. That of course applies only if you extract just about the whole of the old testament and quite a few parts of the new also. If you take the bible as a whole it just about the opposite of compassionate.
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But then - if you need to interpert an old book for which you cannot be sure of the purpose and meaning of the stories, the cohesion of the translation through dozens and dozens of languages and editions, their truth value, the author, or just about anything about them… then why not just use another book or write a new one that teaches the same things but does not carry such uncertainty about the interpretation etc. Then you would not need to explain why god said to
“anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death. ” Leviticus 24:16 or
“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.” Exodus 21:7
but then changed its mind by the of caesar Augustus. I know you have exclaimed the cultural connection of the bible. It should not be taken literally. But why not use a book that can be taken literally, since a number of such books are available?
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Two more things:
1) Yes, you are having that conversation now.
2) Please, please, please stop apologising. Your posts are long enough for our attention spans even without the apologies. If you make a remark that can be taken as an offence, don’t apologise for it. Just let us have our sarcastic fun with it and move on. On this site we take whatever you think has been insulting about your posts, to the power of 800, daily. If I trip you in the staricase I shall apologise, not if I express a view that is contrary to yours.

]]> By: youthpastor http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221502 youthpastor Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:47:38 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221502 @pieces o'nine i personally love the harry potter books. look at the whole message that good triumphs over evil. the lessons about being loyal to your friends. it's a GREAT book for young people to read. or older people, it's a good series, i own all the books and all the movies that are out on dvd. like i said don't think that all christians think the same. most christians don't even like the "uber fundies" i hate all forms of "christian tv" because the televangelists always give me this creepy feeling. @Iron Bess honestly i don't think demolishing the worlds religions is the answer. we need to learn to coexist. and most of the worlds religions do that. there's just a couple who tend to fight. mostly over petty things, and i think it's ridiculous. please don't presume that because i'm a christian that all i read is christian works. i enjoy a full gamut of books christian or not. and aren't i participating in a discussion with someone who isn't a yes-men right now. i like talking with people with opposing views, because i want to understand where other people come from and it challenges me personally to think more independently. like now, i honestly am smiling because i feel like i'm having a good, non threatening dialogs. my closes friend who is almost like a twin sister to me is wicca. i love talking with her about religion and spirituality. a thought just came to me. i hope no one here thinks i'm trying to convert you or anything. that's not my goal at all. i just wante a good conversation, and i wanted everyone to know that not all christians are 'fundies'. to be honest i feel that is happening. i also apologize i didn't intend for the pedestal comment to be insulting. the heart of that message was just that understanding between people of different faiths or nonfaiths is important. i'm not asking you to become christian, just understand and know that we're not all crazy war-mongering jesus freaks. though i hope the same goes for you or anyone else. in any case in life how sad would it be to be surrounded by only yes-men. that would be a sheltered and lonely existence, and to be honest and blunt i would HATE if that were my reality. i feel privileged to have such a diverse group of friends. @pieces o’nine
i personally love the harry potter books. look at the whole message that good triumphs over evil. the lessons about being loyal to your friends. it’s a GREAT book for young people to read. or older people, it’s a good series, i own all the books and all the movies that are out on dvd. like i said don’t think that all christians think the same. most christians don’t even like the “uber fundies” i hate all forms of “christian tv” because the televangelists always give me this creepy feeling.

@Iron Bess
honestly i don’t think demolishing the worlds religions is the answer. we need to learn to coexist. and most of the worlds religions do that. there’s just a couple who tend to fight. mostly over petty things, and i think it’s ridiculous.
please don’t presume that because i’m a christian that all i read is christian works. i enjoy a full gamut of books christian or not. and aren’t i participating in a discussion with someone who isn’t a yes-men right now. i like talking with people with opposing views, because i want to understand where other people come from and it challenges me personally to think more independently. like now, i honestly am smiling because i feel like i’m having a good, non threatening dialogs. my closes friend who is almost like a twin sister to me is wicca. i love talking with her about religion and spirituality.

a thought just came to me. i hope no one here thinks i’m trying to convert you or anything. that’s not my goal at all. i just wante a good conversation, and i wanted everyone to know that not all christians are ‘fundies’. to be honest i feel that is happening.

i also apologize i didn’t intend for the pedestal comment to be insulting. the heart of that message was just that understanding between people of different faiths or nonfaiths is important. i’m not asking you to become christian, just understand and know that we’re not all crazy war-mongering jesus freaks.

though i hope the same goes for you or anyone else. in any case in life how sad would it be to be surrounded by only yes-men. that would be a sheltered and lonely existence, and to be honest and blunt i would HATE if that were my reality. i feel privileged to have such a diverse group of friends.

]]> By: Iron Bess http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221440 Iron Bess Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:05:07 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221440 @youthpastor - I seriously think that you are doing a huge disservice to the youth you councel. God does not exist, in any shape or form, there is no guiding hand, there is no pot at the end of the rainbow. The sooner mankind realizes this, the sooner we will be able to salvage some of this world. . Hang on, I'm just climbing back onto my pedestal...there that is better. The ONLY way this world will be better is when all religions are abolished. Not just the xians and all the fundy ilk that go with it. So you can stop feeling all victimized now. If you take a little bit of time and think about what you are saying, read something other than your religious crap, speak with and participate in discussions with people other then your day to day yes-men. And, please do it with an open mind, you will find that there could easily be a possiblity that all faith based, religious codswallop is a bunch of hooey. Hang on, I'm just climbing back off my pedestal now...there much better. IMHO @youthpastor - I seriously think that you are doing a huge disservice to the youth you councel. God does not exist, in any shape or form, there is no guiding hand, there is no pot at the end of the rainbow. The sooner mankind realizes this, the sooner we will be able to salvage some of this world.
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Hang on, I’m just climbing back onto my pedestal…there that is better. The ONLY way this world will be better is when all religions are abolished. Not just the xians and all the fundy ilk that go with it. So you can stop feeling all victimized now. If you take a little bit of time and think about what you are saying, read something other than your religious crap, speak with and participate in discussions with people other then your day to day yes-men. And, please do it with an open mind, you will find that there could easily be a possiblity that all faith based, religious codswallop is a bunch of hooey. Hang on, I’m just climbing back off my pedestal now…there much better. IMHO

]]> By: pieces o'nine http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221434 pieces o'nine Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:56:50 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221434 @Cottura 5 Minuti “The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book." . If you want to see real wailing and gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and lockstep, kneejerk, forehead vein-pulsing hysteria beyond all the bounds of blind faith, take a gander at what the uber-Christianist fundies have to say about a book (or rather, *interpretations of* a book, as most *vehemently* deny reading!) by some British writer person named JK Rowling... ;-) @Cottura 5 Minuti
“The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book.”
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If you want to see real wailing and gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and lockstep, kneejerk, forehead vein-pulsing hysteria beyond all the bounds of blind faith, take a gander at what the uber-Christianist fundies have to say about a book (or rather, *interpretations of* a book, as most *vehemently* deny reading!) by some British writer person named JK Rowling… ;-)

]]> By: pieces o'nine http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221428 pieces o'nine Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:52:06 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221428 @youthpastor Your remarks remind me of a priest I respected when I was still RC. Once before mass he commented to the altar party (not as fun as 'party' sounds -- smile) that he'd been called to do a nursing home funeral that week and had discovered, upon arriving, that they were Greek Orthodox. The others gasped in sympathetic horror and asked what he did. He said, "I did Greek Orthodox, but I wasn't very happy about it." They clucked their tongues sadly, but I said, "I don't think Jesus really cares." The others looked at me, appalled, but the priest just smiled. "Of course he doesn't. But I do." . That's why I respected him. He knew what path was right for him and followed it faithfully. At the same time, he was able to set it aside to do a kindness for a grieving family on another path, without one word of criticism or proselytizing to them. He also understood, and accepted with humor, that there might be a difference of opinion between his opinions and those of his god. He also encouraged people to examine what they believed and why they believed it, and to take responsibility for their own lives, even within a framework of 'obedience'. When I concluded that I was on a different path, he sent me off with sincere good wishes. Classy. @youthpastor
Your remarks remind me of a priest I respected when I was still RC. Once before mass he commented to the altar party (not as fun as ‘party’ sounds — smile) that he’d been called to do a nursing home funeral that week and had discovered, upon arriving, that they were Greek Orthodox.
The others gasped in sympathetic horror and asked what he did. He said, “I did Greek Orthodox, but I wasn’t very happy about it.”
They clucked their tongues sadly, but I said, “I don’t think Jesus really cares.”
The others looked at me, appalled, but the priest just smiled. “Of course he doesn’t. But I do.”
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That’s why I respected him. He knew what path was right for him and followed it faithfully. At the same time, he was able to set it aside to do a kindness for a grieving family on another path, without one word of criticism or proselytizing to them. He also understood, and accepted with humor, that there might be a difference of opinion between his opinions and those of his god. He also encouraged people to examine what they believed and why they believed it, and to take responsibility for their own lives, even within a framework of ‘obedience’.
When I concluded that I was on a different path, he sent me off with sincere good wishes.
Classy.

]]> By: youthpastor http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221390 youthpastor Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:59:21 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221390 @Wench Nikkiee not all of the christian community are fundamentalists. (i hope you all know that) it's unfortunate that some of the crazies are the loudest ones. and i do often feel like many people believe that all christians are like that. but i do kinda agree with you, rather than wrestling with what they claim to believe and work things out for themselves they just buy into whatever the popular belief is. which saddens me. personally, i do take responsibility for the bad stuff that happens to me. generally it's my own fault. i have a free will to choose to make good decisions or bad ones. i do think though that even when i make bad decisions God can make some good come out of it. another place i feel the church fails as a whole is getting people to REALLY think for themselves. some christians feel that independent thought is scary because people might not conform to the norm anymore. churches don't like to say that it's okay to doubt God. but honestly i think God would be okay with it. but to alot of churches if you say you doubt God then WHAM you're a heathen or some stupid crap. not the case with me. independant thought is vital to who i am, and i encourage it from the kids in the youth group i lead. though i tend to already fall a little bit away from the norm anyways. (being a pacifist and a democrat doesn't sit so well with a family in the midwest US) i do often doubt the existence of God. something usually reminds me why i believe. regardless though i still think the teachings of Jesus (whether you think he was God or not) can be a pretty positive force in the world. aside from that, i don't know i feel that there has to be more to this world than just what it is. look at how intricate the universe is. i don't think it just happened. i think God has guided it, whether that was the big bang/evolution or whatever. here's my point i suppose. not all christians want to judge others. don't take us for face value or buy into stereotypes. stereotypes are lame anyways, they reinforce negative views of a group of people. yeah some christians are douche bags, i apologize for that, but before you decide that we're all weak minded, please step down from your pedestal. i'll step down from mine too. and maybe just maybe we could be friends. the only way things on this planet are going to get any better is if we work together rather than bashing each other all the time. @Cottura 5 Minuti “The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book. AMEN! i kinda explained why earlier. but it's also a problem with reading any book that was written in/for a culture outside of your own. we have the tendency to want to interpret as though it was written for the now. rather than reading and understanding why it was written for the culture in the time it was written. it is dangerous and some people bastardize the true meaning of what some of the scriptures would have meant to the people they have written to, and thus should really mean to us @Wench Nikkiee

not all of the christian community are fundamentalists. (i hope you all know that) it’s unfortunate that some of the crazies are the loudest ones. and i do often feel like many people believe that all christians are like that. but i do kinda agree with you, rather than wrestling with what they claim to believe and work things out for themselves they just buy into whatever the popular belief is. which saddens me.

personally, i do take responsibility for the bad stuff that happens to me. generally it’s my own fault. i have a free will to choose to make good decisions or bad ones. i do think though that even when i make bad decisions God can make some good come out of it.

another place i feel the church fails as a whole is getting people to REALLY think for themselves. some christians feel that independent thought is scary because people might not conform to the norm anymore. churches don’t like to say that it’s okay to doubt God. but honestly i think God would be okay with it. but to alot of churches if you say you doubt God then WHAM you’re a heathen or some stupid crap. not the case with me. independant thought is vital to who i am, and i encourage it from the kids in the youth group i lead. though i tend to already fall a little bit away from the norm anyways. (being a pacifist and a democrat doesn’t sit so well with a family in the midwest US)

i do often doubt the existence of God. something usually reminds me why i believe. regardless though i still think the teachings of Jesus (whether you think he was God or not) can be a pretty positive force in the world.

aside from that, i don’t know i feel that there has to be more to this world than just what it is.

look at how intricate the universe is. i don’t think it just happened. i think God has guided it, whether that was the big bang/evolution or whatever.

here’s my point i suppose. not all christians want to judge others. don’t take us for face value or buy into stereotypes. stereotypes are lame anyways, they reinforce negative views of a group of people. yeah some christians are douche bags, i apologize for that, but before you decide that we’re all weak minded, please step down from your pedestal. i’ll step down from mine too. and maybe just maybe we could be friends. the only way things on this planet are going to get any better is if we work together rather than bashing each other all the time.

@Cottura 5 Minuti
“The danger is when you forget to think for yourself and just believe the book, or even worse an iterpretor of the book.

AMEN! i kinda explained why earlier. but it’s also a problem with reading any book that was written in/for a culture outside of your own. we have the tendency to want to interpret as though it was written for the now. rather than reading and understanding why it was written for the culture in the time it was written. it is dangerous and some people bastardize the true meaning of what some of the scriptures would have meant to the people they have written to, and thus should really mean to us

]]> By: pieces o'nine http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221385 pieces o'nine Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:49:20 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221385 @PacificPam: eh; I don't want to intrude on your moment with Pluto! . I'm drawing on high school Spanish, so it's shaky. I enjoyed devising horrible, college student-quality 'translations', such as 'vasos de los ojos' for 'eyeglasses', just to watch one of them wince. (laughs evilly) She said most people have to *pay* her to listen to terrible Spanish. Thus, I had to swear to not mangle the language if I decided to go on the trip. ;-) . Ella dijo, “Repítate: no estoy con ella.” Contesté, “Estoy con ella.” “¡No! Repítate: NO ESTOY con ella.” Contesté, “Mais oui, estoy con ella. Ja ja ja.” . Sadly, my forays into German are even worse. Apparently, I actually frightened her German-instructor colleague when I spontaneously attempted a joke. I thought I was being hilarious. He thought I was saying something about eating his legs. Teachers. They're so touchy... ;-) @PacificPam:
eh; I don’t want to intrude on your moment with Pluto!
.
I’m drawing on high school Spanish, so it’s shaky. I enjoyed devising horrible, college student-quality ‘translations’, such as ‘vasos de los ojos’ for ‘eyeglasses’, just to watch one of them wince. (laughs evilly) She said most people have to *pay* her to listen to terrible Spanish. Thus, I had to swear to not mangle the language if I decided to go on the trip. ;-)
.
Ella dijo, “Repítate: no estoy con ella.”
Contesté, “Estoy con ella.”
“¡No! Repítate: NO ESTOY con ella.”
Contesté, “Mais oui, estoy con ella. Ja ja ja.”
.
Sadly, my forays into German are even worse. Apparently, I actually frightened her German-instructor colleague when I spontaneously attempted a joke. I thought I was being hilarious. He thought I was saying something about eating his legs. Teachers. They’re so touchy… ;-)

]]> By: PacificPam (IF) http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221312 PacificPam (IF) Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:37:50 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221312 I am sorry. I didn't understand that part! Some translators are not good. I am sorry. I didn’t understand that part! Some translators are not good.

]]> By: Pluto http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221299 Pluto Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:10:10 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221299 Sexy insinuaciones es mi especialidad. Estoy haciendo trampas y el uso de un traductor. Poco como usar una frase libro me temo. Me encantaría que si me enseñó el inglés; Seguro de que me puede enseñar mucho más ;) Como hago para que el esfuerzo se que puedo Sexy insinuaciones es mi especialidad. Estoy haciendo trampas y el uso de un traductor. Poco como usar una frase libro me temo. Me encantaría que si me enseñó el inglés; Seguro de que me puede enseñar mucho más ;)
Como hago para que el esfuerzo se que puedo

]]> By: PacificPam (IF) http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221291 PacificPam (IF) Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:01:27 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221291 uhhh sexy! uhhh sexy!

]]> By: PacificPam (IF) http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221290 PacificPam (IF) Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:01:06 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221290 hahahahahahaha Is that some sort of sexyal innuendo? hahahahahahaha Is that some sort of sexyal innuendo?

]]> By: PacificPam (IF) http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221289 PacificPam (IF) Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:00:39 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221289 @Pluto. I thinks it was a little translated with some portuguese but no problem. That was really cute. I will teach you some spahish. =)hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahaahahaahahahahahaahahahahaaha I am so glad to read that there are a few spanish speakers here. I apologize if I was rude and was talking in another language. @pieced o' nine. let me see you have some friends that teach spanish and they invited to Central America, but you swear to not speak spanish? @Pluto. I thinks it was a little translated with some portuguese but no problem. That was really cute. I will teach you some spahish. =)hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahaahahaahahahahahaahahahahaaha
I am so glad to read that there are a few spanish speakers here. I apologize if I was rude and was talking in another language.
@pieced o’ nine. let me see you have some friends that teach spanish and they invited to Central America, but you swear to not speak spanish?

]]> By: Pluto http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221288 Pluto Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:55:28 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221288 Quiero llenar con la crema, lo cubra en el chocolate y comer le gusta de un éclair. Is that better? Quiero llenar con la crema, lo cubra en el chocolate y comer le gusta de un éclair.
Is that better?

]]> By: Pluto http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221276 Pluto Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:32:02 +0000 http://www.venganza.org/2007/10/28/nyt-evangelical.htm#comment-221276 ¿La traducción pudo haber conseguido cogido poco para arriba!? ¿La traducción pudo haber conseguido cogido poco para arriba!?

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