The Michigan Tech University Pastafarian club has been the victim of harassment even before their first meeting. The MTU Lode reports:
Two individuals are currently undergoing disciplinary procedures through the Dean of Students Office after an investigation by MTU Public Safety determined that they posted a threatening message on the door of the President and Vice President of a recently-formed student organization called the Pastafarian Club.
Some background on the MTU Pastafarian club’s leaders:
According to the president of the Pastafarianism Club, Matt Halberstad–who identifies as agnostic–the group is a parody “religion.” But the group’s purpose isn’t to attack religion, and one would be hard-pressed to find a member of the group who truly believes in their parody deity–the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
The vice president of the Pastafarian Club, Steven Wheeler–who is atheist–believes that Henderson’s argument boils down to the main belief of the Michigan Tech chapter of the Pastafarians: creationism, whether or not one believes in it, is not a science, and should not be taught in a science classroom.
I agree with that, but there are people - maybe not in this particular club - who do truly believe in the FSM. Also, I want to make the point that there are plenty of Christians who are members of the Christian religion without truly believing in the deity God/Jesus.
The harassment was hateful, not unlike some of the messages I receive. In part, the message said:
they [Pastafarians] should be shot and hanged from the tallest redwood and then thrown to the raging sea.
The individuals who left the hate messages were caught and are now facing a hearing:
The Bias-Related Harassment and Violence section of MTU’s Code of Community Conduct covers threats due to one’s “race, ethnicity, national origin, disability, religious or cultural identity, sexual orientation, gender-identity or gender.” The penalties for violating the Bias-Related Harassment and Violence section range from disciplinary probation to expulsion.
The outcome of this will be very interesting. Even if the death threats were not meant to be taken seriously, they were still hateful messages directed at members of a religious group on campus. What if the harassment had been instead directed at an Islam club? I strongly suspect the kids would be expelled.
I wonder if the school admins are willing to make the statement that Pastafarians deserve less protection against religious harassment than other mainstream religions.
That said, I don’t think these kids should be expelled. But it would upset me if a Pastafarian organization received less protection than another religious organization (or any other organization).
I guess we’ll see what happens.
Read more about it here.
I just want to say as a casual reader of this site that religion has nothing to do with knowing that murder is right or wrong. Unless you are a complete idiot you recognize humans have been on this planet longer than the old testament mentions. If you beleive time began with the old testament, please go get a life. I am pretty sure because people are here that we survived those old days when there was no religion to make murder/rape/theft “wrong”. I do believe in fact in the very old religions human sacrafices we common to appease the Gods. We survived this period of time as well. We as a developed society have developed rules that are accepted in society. I believe the rule of thumb comes from the old testament where it was okay to beat your wife with a stick no thicker than your thumb. Even though the bible says this is okay we as a society have said that beating your wife period is wrong. We can develop laws that as a society in my opinion make much sense. Like getting rid of those pesky adultry laws was a very importent development in American life in the 60’s I am still grateful everyday.
In summary Society makes laws and that hurting other people directly is generally accepted as wrong and society says you go to jail. We do not follow religion to dictate what is right or wrong. If we did Jews would kill a murder (eye for an eye) and christians should set him free. We either lock him up for life or kill him depending on the state and circumstances. So I guess we follow both religions.
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It never ceases to amaze me how flawed the logic of xtians is. So let’s say I walk up to you on the street and say “YolyYole, bow down before me or I’ll break both your arms”. According to your logic, I’m not threatening you, I’m giving you a choice. I’d like to see how a court of law would deal with that defense. And why does the other place involve fire and everlasting torment? Why not just an island of like-minded people who made the wrong choice, you know, 72 degrees F, partly cloudy, nothing to do but play shuffleborad all day. Nope, gotta have a lake of fire, sure, that makes perfect sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
From Yoleyole
“Unless you were actually there, no matter how much evidence there is supporting it, it cannot be proven. It is merely a widely accepted theory. Not to mention the many questions it leaves unanswered.”
So basically you’re saying that evolution is as valid a theory as creationism. correct me if I”m wrong but no one would have been around to witness a creationist beginning of life. Sooooo. It cannot be proven.
So should we accept the theory that has the most solid physical evidence or just choose a theory based on what someone wrote thousands of years ago that has gone through countless revisions. I don’t think anyone can rationally claim that the Bible, however powerful and valuable many of the teachings may be, is an accurate record of world history.
from yoleyole
“God doesn’t threaten us with hell. He gives us a choice. There are only two places to go”
So if Mom says… “I love you dearly but you have a choice. Believe in Santa Clause and be a good girl or boy or else Burn for all eternity in a firey inferno of torture and misery” That wouldn’t be considered a threat?
Please.
from yoleyole
“God’s laws are definite and clear ”
Really. So the 6th commandment (the one about not killing people). That would be considered a pretty stern and clear rule correct? So …. how come so many churches have interpreted that rule to not really apply to all people. Soldiers can kill, crusaders have been given license to kill why do these “definite and clear” rules have so much leeway according to God’s own church? To take a less dramatic example if these rules are so definite and clear why does every Christian religion have a different take on what these rules mean and how they need to be followed?
Seems pretty vague to me.
I don’t believe in Hell. I don’t believe in Heaven. I see no reward on punishment after death for my actions. Yet I am a good person. I have read far more of the bible than most of my Christian friends and can tell you that I do live my life by Jesus teachings. Why? Because they’re good common sense ethical ways to live. Not for any reward or punishment.
-sigh-
It frightens and saddens me that so many people see fear of Hell as the only reason to behave in a social conscious and productive way.
Well. I’m bummed now. Off to bed.
I agree! in its original context, when Christians, Jews, and Muslims were all rolled up o\into one roly-poly religion (Judaism), the Sixth Commandment (thou shalt not murder) meant only to not murder another of your faith.
Unfortunately, the Victorian era is to blame for today’s milk-and-honey image associated with Jesus, though the Vatican etc has been doing it since the 7th Century CE at least! Yes, that’s right: Christianity began as barbarism. Face it, people!!!!
“Clarify,” you rule, and thanks for your application of reason.
I was told to become a Christian or go to hell - but think about it, what makes Christianity the sole true religion????? It was an offshoot of Judaism (the Jews and Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet, NOT the messiah), and besides, there are a myriad of religions to choose from, and they’re just the surviving ones!
Quite frankly, I would find it amusing to no end if the “one true religion” (if it exists) was actually that of Ancient Greece or Mesopotamia.
…And if truth can be created by belief, then there are a ridiculous number of “true religions,” and since we can’t all adhere, we’ll all go to hell no matter what we do!
POSTED BY TRUE BELIEVER:
“Like getting rid of those pesky adultry laws was a very importent development in American life in the 60’s I am still grateful everyday.”
What happened to your good Christian values?? No adultery, remember?? You’d go to hell for that.
TO EMH RICHARD: You also rule. Don’t deny it. I like your logic very much. Keep them thinking!!!!! They might just end up with a decent Christian answer someday.
Another thing I’d like to attack:
“God is energy” (a common concept).
If this is true, then God can be found in a lump of coal.
Thankyou.
POSTED BY JP101
“Hold up. How did you go from talking about ‘proof’ and how in effect ‘nothing’ can ‘truely’ be ‘proven’ to talking about God and how the universe is? Irony?
Tell me, do you believe in Africa?
Have you ever seen it? Has anyone know know ever been there? Are you or are they sure it was truely Africa? can you ‘prove’ that it was beyond a doubt exactly the Africa you had heard about. No, you cannot PROVE it, but saying that there is no Africa because it cannot be proven is simply unreasonable. In the truest sense the only thing you can prove is that you exist, but that you can only prove to yourself and not others(As it remains a possibility that all others are simply a figment or yours or some one elses imagenation).”
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It’s true. I cannot prove God to you. I didn’t say I can. I also didn’t say that evolution isn’t true because it can’t be proven. I was simply explaining that evolution has not been proven, contrary to what the person I was responding to said. I cannot prove to you that God exists. That’s where faith comes in. Then when you have faith, God will give you proof. It could be a miracle, a vision, a blessing in your life, or just giving you confidence in Him. Of course, it’s not the kind of proof that you can show to others. It’s just proof for you. Just like if I went to Africa, I still wouldn’t be able to prove to you that Africa exists. It would just be proof for me.
Oh, and just to let you know, I have been to Africa. My parents were born there. I’m Ethiopian. I’ve been there twice. lol
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POSTED BY EMH Richard
“You say that it is impossible to prove the evolution theory, however, this is not true. The HIV-virus, is but a humble example of this massive process.”
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I said earlier that Christians don’t dispute this. We dispute that one species can evolve into another. For instance, the changing of apes to humans. If you are saying that the diffeent types of HIV virus are different species, I’m sorry, maybe I have my definition of species wrong. I don’t consider them different species. But we don’t argue that. We believe that humans were created by God, not evolved from apes.
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POSTED BY clarify
“So basically you’re saying that evolution is as valid a theory as creationism. correct me if I”m wrong but no one would have been around to witness a creationist beginning of life. Sooooo. It cannot be proven.”
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Yes. To any non-Christian, anyone who hasn’t experienced God, anyone who hasn’t seen what God has done in their own lives and the lives of those around them, yes, evolution is just as valid a theory as creationism.
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POSTED BY clarify
“Really. So the 6th commandment (the one about not killing people). That would be considered a pretty stern and clear rule correct? So …. how come so many churches have interpreted that rule to not really apply to all people. Soldiers can kill, crusaders have been given license to kill why do these “definite and clear” rules have so much leeway according to God’s own church? To take a less dramatic example if these rules are so definite and clear why does every Christian religion have a different take on what these rules mean and how they need to be followed?
Seems pretty vague to me.”
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Actually, the sixth commanment doesn’t say not to kill, it says not to murder. There is a difference. Also, you can’t judge God by what so called Christians have done. The crusaders were not given license to kill by God. They were given license to kill by the Pope. He does not represent God.
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POSTED BY clarify
“It frightens and saddens me that so many people see fear of Hell as the only reason to behave in a social conscious and productive way.”
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It is not out of fear of hell. It is out of love, gratitude, and obedience to God. Or atleast that is the way it should be. I admit that many professed Christians don’t exactly follow that.
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POSTED BY clarify
“So if Mom says… “I love you dearly but you have a choice. Believe in Santa Clause and be a good girl or boy or else Burn for all eternity in a firey inferno of torture and misery” That wouldn’t be considered a threat?”
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Of course that would be a threat. lol
Okay, picture this. You are blindfolded and walking down a road that leads to the edge of a huge cliff. It’s a wide road and it has no turns. It just goes straight to the edge. There is a narrow road that forks off of the wide road and turns away from the edge. So someone is on that narrow road, calling you over, trying to save you from the fall that you will undoubtedly reach if you continue on this road. He’s calling and calling, but you refuse to listen. He can’t grab you and drag you onto the narrow road so he just keeps calling you and telling you to come. You just keep walking. You have a choice to either listen to the person calling you and go onto the narrow path to escape your destruction or just keep going straight and fall off of the cliff to your death. Was it the other person’s fault that you fell off and died?
God has given each and every one of us free will so he can’t force us to follow Him. Because humans sinned, we are already on the path to hell. The only way we can avoid it is if we turn onto the narrow road from which Jesus is calling us.
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POSTED BY Captain Knowledge (April the Magnificent)
“God is energy” (a common concept).
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What? Ive never heard this before.
God is God.
YoleYole -
That’s not quite a fair situation. If there was really just a single person calling to us, then there would only be one religion. But that’s clearly not the case. It’s far more fair to say that there are an innumerable amount of voices and paths. Each one is calling to you equally loud and with fervor, some claiming that they love you. Many promise you eternal pain if you dare not follow their path. To make matters worse, there is no way to fairly evaluate each choice because there is no evidence to allow for such an evaluation. Supposing you do choose a path, it only has a minute chance of being correct. In essence, you’re gambling because almost none of these voices offer any way but their own. And let us suppose that one of these ‘Gods’ is correct. Could I blame him? Certainly, for a truly kind and caring God would have some way to help show the way - something that would help us, who don’t trust blindly and try to find the truth, choose the correct path. Or, at the very least, He would judge not based on beliefs but the quality of our lives.
I’m not at all trying to belittle you or your beliefs, but there are so many belief systems out there that we have to give them all equal credence.
Yoleyole
That is all well and good. I cannot prove or disprove(nor am I really trying) god, because I personally believe that is quite impossible(Giving way to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Invisble Pink Unicorn). What I am trying to say is that personal faith should not be taught in the science classroom, because no matter what personal proof god has given you(or anyone else) if it cannot be shown in a testible, relyable, obserable way, it is not scientific. I am sorry if I seemed to be attacking your faith, you have a right to believe what ever you choose.
I strongly believe only what is testible should be taught in the realm of science.
There is a fundatmental flaw in how many religionist attempt to argue for a “belief” system. They attempt to validate the concept of “believe” by compaing it to examples of how agnostics / atheists “believe” in things too. They argue that a belief in a god, for which their is NO evidence and the existence of which would violate several known physical laws) is comparable to a belief in say, a continent, for which there is overwhelming evidence, is reasonable, and does not violate any known physical laws.
The unintended consequence of this is that if one accepts this argument, one has to acknowledge that ANY belief can be “true”, such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Giant Purple Space Goat, etc. etc. This really shatters the concept of “truth” beyond any meaningful recognition. The error here is that not all things which are “believed” are comparable. Some “beliefs” are reasonable and others are not. Mind you, I don’t mind if people want to believe in invisible big buddies, just don’t use those as a reasons to pass laws and regulate society’s morality.
Additionally, no argument can be made against claims of “special knowledge”; i.e. “I experienced, talked to, heard from, had tea with (insert diety here)”. This is the type of claim that religionist expect others to take on faith, to believe in without evidence.
Please religionists, particularly Christians, remember when you try to argue (use a process of reasoning) for your god that FAITH (a belief not requiring evidence) is the cornerstone that will alegedly save your immortal soul. Faith is not compatible with reasoning. Logic and reasoning require evidence while faith is perfectly happy without it.
Posted by YoleYole;
“Okay, picture this. You are blindfolded and walking down a road that leads to the edge of a huge cliff. It’s a wide road and it has no turns. It just goes straight to the edge. There is a narrow road that forks off of the wide road and turns away from the edge. So someone is on that narrow road, calling you over, trying to save you from the fall that you will undoubtedly reach if you continue on this road. He’s calling and calling….”
While this is an interesting situation, I’m still trying to figure out how it corresponds to reality. Perhaps a few questions will help.
Why am I walking blindfolded down a road? My mind tells me this is an unsafe, unpredictable way to travel.
Why can’t I reach up and pull the blindfold off? Have my arms been disabled or cut off? If they have, even more reason not to walk around blindfolded. Plus, someone else must have blindfolded me and forced me into a situation where I may HAVE to gamble on the kindness of others.
Why is it I must necessarily trust a voice I have never heard who could in fact be directing me towards the cliff instead of the narrow road? Again, I must have been forced into the blindfold by no fault of my own. Is the voice that is calling me the same person who blindfolded me in the first place? Why should I trust him?
Why am I necessarily “refusing to listen” if say, there is no voice there at all? (I know, your claim is that there is a voice there even if it cannot be heard) My ears and my mind work fine, but I’m not hearing this proverbial voice you describe. I”m receptive to hearing what is out there, but that voice simply is not there.
Ultimately, your example demonstrates how religion must use scare tactics to recruit its members. It doesn’t merely offer a better life in lieu of a less fulfilling or mediocre life, the alternative must be the most hideously, perhaps unimaginable thing; pain and suffering on a massive scale. This is what is required to make most men forego their own reasoning, to largely abandon that set of tools that he has to figure out what really is going on, his senses and his capacity for rational thought.
As for the blind man on a path walking towards a cliff…
Let’s examine some basic assumptions upon which Christianity is based:
Given: God is all powerful.
Given: God created all of existence.
Given: God is absolutely good.
Now, if we are reminded of these cornerstones of monotheism, we recognize that a cliff can only exist if God created it. If a person dug a hole in a path, then noticed a person walking down that path without seeing that hole (regardless of why he can’t see it), wouldn’t it be your responsibility to prevent them from falling?
Now, keep in mind that God is all powerful… It would be impossible for any all powerful deity to put restrictions upon itself because of the paradox. Therefor, God would have the ability to prevent each and every person from falling down that hypothetical cliff, or else be responsible for them falling. If God let a single person fall down that cliff, He would be bad, which goes against the third assumption listed.
So, is there a way to logically prove or disprove any deity? Every argument, either for or against, has a hole… God is an unprovable hypothesis… so I choose to use faith instead of logic. I use logic where logic is useful, because I have faith that God (with noodly appendages or not) gave me logic for my own good. I use faith where faith is useful… I find that using both faith and logic has helped me to lead a much better life… of course, your own millage will vary.
Personally I believe that if any theories of creation involving religion should not be taught, then evolution should not be taught either. If there is so much dispute over the origins of the universe then why teach it at all? Let the people have their own theories.
I understand where most people here are coming from, and I am a Christian myself. I realize that this could lead me into a biased opinion, but I will try my best.
Okay, first of all, about the situation of “bow down to me or I will break both of your arms.” We are punished for disobeying God. God told us not to sin, which we did. If you had a child that you cared for and provided for since it was born, and then the child went up and slapped you in the face, would you not punish it? And what if the child disregarded all of your punishments and kept on getting worse and worse? Would you just let it continue?
The sixth law of the Bible says “You shall not murder.” If your family and your life was threatened or if someone came after you, you would eventually have to resort to killing. I do not consider defense of people you love to be consider murder.
Maybe God will let people into Heaven that have done good for the world, but not necessarily Christians. Neither Evolution nor Creationism will ever prevail until we find out ourselves. We have no right to say who is judged and who is not judged. I know that my mission is to spread the gospel of Jesus, and that is what I will do. I do not have any right to force anyone of you to agree with me, and I personally do not even think there should be so much disagreement on religion. If you learn one thing form this whole conversation, I ask that it is this: The true point of any religion is to help your fellow man and love each other. Whether you are an Atheist, Christian, or anything else, just try your best to contribute to our world as much as you can. Thank you.
In response to YoleYole. Thank my lord and creator - the Flying Spaghetti Monster - has been REAVEALED to ME! Praise be to him and all his creation! AMEN!
… said, “Personally I believe that if any theories of creation involving religion should not be taught, then evolution should not be taught either. If there is so much dispute over the origins of the universe then why teach it at all?”
This argument makes little since when talking about science. According to dictionary.com, science is a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws, or systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation. The scientific theory of evolution is based on observable data that was collected by geologists clear back in the 1800’s and has had further corraborating evidence clear up to this day with genetics and molecular biology. Intelligent design can be paraphrased with, Poof! and there were people. The ID theory is not based on any observable data, or repeatable experiments thus it is not science.
Based on your reasoning for not teaching evolution we can say the following. We shouldn’t teach physics because scientists are currently debating the foundations of matter. Better not teach chemistry then either because it’s based on the principles of physics. Biology just got thrown out too because without chemistry you can’t have biology. Well, that leaves us with history, language, math and theology as subjects. Of course they will have to be taught by word of mouth or with sticks in the ground because we won’t have any of the advances that brought man out of the stone age.
… also said, “The true point of any religion is to help your fellow man and love each other. Whether you are an Atheist, Christian, or anything else, just try your best to contribute to our world as much as you can. Thank you.” Have you noticed how the most civil people on this board tend to be pastafarians (pasta be upon him), or atheists while the most violent and hate filled are the Christians? You should really talk to your fellow Christians, not that we don’t need the occasional reminder ourselves.
@ a person
“I think that we could solve this whole thing by shipping all the religious psychos to their own little box somewhere they cant hurt normal people. Like Australia,”.
hey, what did we Australians do to deserve that, (O.K. apart from Steve Irwin and the Wiggles, lol). We already have enough problems with funddies of all sorts, please don’t send us any more.
pax and rAmen
POSTED BY Shoe
“That’s not quite a fair situation. If there was really just a single person calling to us, then there would only be one religion. But that’s clearly not the case. It’s far more fair to say that there are an innumerable amount of voices and paths.”
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Yes there are an innumerable amount of voices and paths, but only one leads away from the edge of the cliff, and that is God’s.
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POSTED BY Shoe
“Certainly, for a truly kind and caring God would have some way to help show the way - something that would help us, who don’t trust blindly and try to find the truth, choose the correct path. Or, at the very least, He would judge not based on beliefs but the quality of our lives.”
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You probably don’t want me pulling out the Bible right now, but this is a major part of my faith. Isaiah 64:6 says:
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
This verse is saying that no matter what we do, no matter how we we live our lives, compared to God, it is nothing. God is so holy that we can’t even compare to Him and even our best actions are like filthy rags. Because God loves us even though we are filthy, He gave us a way to still be with Him. He sent His son to die for us so that we would be clean and we could be with Him. So if we don’t accept that gift he gave us, there is no way we can go to Heaven because we are still filthy rags full of sin and God is holy and cannot live with sin.
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POSTED BY JP101
“What I am trying to say is that personal faith should not be taught in the science classroom, because no matter what personal proof god has given you(or anyone else) if it cannot be shown in a testible, relyable, obserable way, it is not scientific. I am sorry if I seemed to be attacking your faith, you have a right to believe what ever you choose.”
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I understand what you are saying and I just want to say I don’t think it can be shown in a testible, reliable, observable way that man evolved from apes either. Anyways, it’s okay, and I’m sorry if I seemed to be attacking your beliefs as well. I wasn’t trying to attack your beliefs but i was trying to defend mine, and show you my point of view.
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POSTED BY RationalBiker
“They argue that a belief in a god, for which their is NO evidence and the existence of which would violate several known physical laws) is comparable to a belief in say, a continent, for which there is overwhelming evidence, is reasonable, and does not violate any known physical laws.”
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Can you please tell me some of these known physical laws? I don’t know of any that the belief in God would violate.
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POSTED BY RationalBiker
“Why am I walking blindfolded down a road? My mind tells me this is an unsafe, unpredictable way to travel.
Why can’t I reach up and pull the blindfold off? Have my arms been disabled or cut off? If they have, even more reason not to walk around blindfolded. Plus, someone else must have blindfolded me and forced me into a situation where I may HAVE to gamble on the kindness of others.
Why is it I must necessarily trust a voice I have never heard who could in fact be directing me towards the cliff instead of the narrow road? Again, I must have been forced into the blindfold by no fault of my own. Is the voice that is calling me the same person who blindfolded me in the first place? Why should I trust him?
Why am I necessarily “refusing to listen” if say, there is no voice there at all? (I know, your claim is that there is a voice there even if it cannot be heard) My ears and my mind work fine, but I’m not hearing this proverbial voice you describe. I”m receptive to hearing what is out there, but that voice simply is not there.”
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Someone did blindfold you. Adam and Eve, the first human beings. When they sinned, they seperated you from God and put you in this situation. And your right, my claim is that there is a voice. But it isn’t that you don’t hear it, it’s that you don’t recognize it. The voice is the person telling you about Jesus.
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POSTED BY RationalBiker
“Ultimately, your example demonstrates how religion must use scare tactics to recruit its members. It doesn’t merely offer a better life in lieu of a less fulfilling or mediocre life, the alternative must be the most hideously, perhaps unimaginable thing; pain and suffering on a massive scale.”
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I’m not using any scare tactics at all and that analogy wasn’t a scare tactic. If you claim that I am, please tell me what it is that makes you feel that way because that isn’t what I’m trying to do. Any “scaring” going on is unintentional. So if I am, I’m sorry. And just to let you know, Christianity is not about having a better life. It’s about glorifying God, living in a way that is pleasing to Him and going to live with Him when we die.
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POSTED BY Adam
“As for the blind man on a path walking towards a cliff…
Let’s examine some basic assumptions upon which Christianity is based:
Given: God is all powerful.
Given: God created all of existence.
Given: God is absolutely good.
Now, if we are reminded of these cornerstones of monotheism, we recognize that a cliff can only exist if God created it. If a person dug a hole in a path, then noticed a person walking down that path without seeing that hole (regardless of why he can’t see it), wouldn’t it be your responsibility to prevent them from falling?
Now, keep in mind that God is all powerful… It would be impossible for any all powerful deity to put restrictions upon itself because of the paradox. Therefor, God would have the ability to prevent each and every person from falling down that hypothetical cliff, or else be responsible for them falling. If God let a single person fall down that cliff, He would be bad, which goes against the third assumption listed.”
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First of all, there are things that God cannot do. This is because it is against His nature. For example, He cannot lie because He is holy. This doesn’t mean He is not omnipotent though.
For a full explanation go to http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo2.htm
Second, God did create the cliff, but when He created it, it was a mountain. Satan dug out part of it and made it into a cliff when He caused Adam and Eve to sin. Saying that God it is God’s fault if we fall off the cliff because He made the mountain is a pretty ridiculous. He gave is something perfectly good and we messed it up by giving into the devil’s temptation. Therefore, any blame would go to the devil or us, not God. Let’s take the Twin Towers for example. They were perfectly fine when they were built right? When they were destroyed, did anyone blame the company that built it? No, they blamed the terrorists that did it. If the building has collapsed on its own, then it would be the company’s fault. But it didn’t. Just like this, God is not to be held responsible for our deaths from this hypothetical cliff. He doesn’t try to save us from this out of duty. He does it out of love.
Third, God would have been able to just reach out and pull each and every one of us towards Him, away from the edge, but He gave up this ability when He gave us a free will. He gave us free will so it would be lying if He went against that. God cannot sin, therefore he cannot do it.
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POSTED BY Bret
“Have you noticed how the most civil people on this board tend to be pastafarians (pasta be upon him), or atheists while the most violent and hate filled are the Christians? You should really talk to your fellow Christians, not that we don’t need the occasional reminder ourselves.”
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I’m not sure if this is referring to me, but if it is, I want to let you know that I have no hate for any of you guys and I wasn’t trying to be mean or rude in any of my posts. I don’t think that I have been, but if I have I’m sorry. Like I said above, I’m just trying to defend my faith and tell you guys about Jesus.
@ a person re “I think that we could solve this whole thing by shipping all the religious psychos to their own little box somewhere they cant hurt normal people. Like Australia, or the Sea of Tranquility.”
Hey, what did we Australians do to deserve that. Didn’t we give the world the wiggles, Captain Feathersword rocks. PLEASE dont send us your “religious psychos”. Trust me we have our own share of them.
whenever i read these comments i start to feel like i really have no valid point to make what so ever, but anyway obviously this is wrong and most religious people really can’t seem to understand pastafarianism and to be honest theres not much to get… I have recently investigated pastafarianism after knowing about it for some time now and have given myself over to our noodley lord (pasta be upon him)
Some one once said “If there was no god you would have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things.. it takes a god to drive a good person to do a bad thing”
Just so you know Pastafarianism has reached the UK and I’ll do my best to convert the heathens.
PASTA BE WITH YOU!
@yoleyole
“Like I said above, I’m just trying to defend my faith and tell you guys about Jesus.”
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Been there, done that.
I think I am safe in saying that most of the Pastafarians here grew up being told entirely too much about Jesus. I spent way too much of my childhood in Sunday school, youth groups, and listening to sermons. I have read your entire bible, cover-to-cover, in both the King James and Good News Versions. My Grandfather was a Baptist preacher with four churches!
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I don’t need you to tell me about your religion. I’ve heard it. I’m not unchurched, I’m over-churched. I’ve had enough.
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I have found life without religion to be more joyful, more fulfilling, more wondrous and more interesting than anything I have ever heard from any preacher. So pass the pasta and keep your mythology out of our schools.
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RAmen
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ps - Bobby - another vote for losing the moderation, or at least reducing it to a spot check from time to time. I really like real-time intelligent discussions.
Hey YoleYole: Are you saying that God did not create any cliffs? And if it was Satan who wrecked the mountain, the question then becomes, “who created Satan”?
“God will give you proof. It could be a miracle, a vision, a blessing in your life, or just giving you confidence in Him.”
FSM proves he is the creator of everything, known, unknown ,and midgets, every night in my pasta bowl.
About this threat business, the penalty should be a whipping with a wet noodle! RAmen.