flimsy moral standards? Lets see here.
If I were to shoot your wife, would you have a problem with that?
-michael martin
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An elaborate spoof on Intelligent Design, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is neither too elaborate nor too spoofy to succeed in nailing the fallacies of ID. It's even wackier than Jonathan Swift's suggestion that the Irish eat their children as a way to keep them from being a burden, and it may offend just as many people, but Henderson, described elsewhere as a 25-year-old "out-of-work physics major," puts satire to the same serious use that Swift did. Oh, yes, it is very funny. -- Scientific American
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Funny how we are always on this sight at the same time huh Swabbies. Your post came right as I wrote mine.
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So please nic write a short quick answer without excerpts from the bible and quotes from the Romans. I am currently halfway through the whole bible, it is almost as tedious and contradictory as your posts, no offense to it or you, I know its not supposed to be a fun read. But i’m sure most of us have read it all and since we don’t agree with much of it there is no use quoting it to us as if it were proof. I know that method works in religous circles, where if the Bible says something it carries all the more meaning, but not here.
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@ 13 LOL,
Yea, I think it’s because “God daddy nic” brings out the best in us here.
Ramen
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…yeah…I’m probably talking..typing… to myself…
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:D
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Tis an auspicously noodly coincidence. Is Nic on his computer or are those last posts old? I would scroll up to check the date. but I would lose patience scrolling thru such a long artical :). And don’t say I’m being mean Nic it is true.
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Again @ 13, He can not answer you. That is why he repeats himself, and then asks others which part of what he says, they want explained. Then he askes it over when they tell him. Which is why I no longer reply to him.
I answered every question he asked of me. He has answered none of the ones I’ve asked him.
You don’t have to believe me, it is all fact written in these threads.
That is how his type work. Like the priests I used to ask.
Ask a simple question, like why do babies suffer with cancer? Why it is Gods will of course! Why must that childs family suffer so, to watch him die like that?
God has a plan for all of us….. Those are the best answers you’ll ever get!
28 Years I studied in The RC church. Then I woke up.
Ramen
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@Swabbies Bucket
Your link was much better when I turned the volume on!
RAmen
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Nic
….†Miracles are instances when God modifies the behavior of matter,
but a stable world “demands that these occasions should be extremely rare.†Yes and several thousand years ago with no unbiased witnesses to record the it.
‘It willbe the mere opinion of humans.’These are the only opinions we can get unless you can talk to different species.
‘As Scripture points out, it isbastards who are spoiled:’ A friend of mine is a bastard and he certainly is not spoiled.
“a father’s love for a sonâ€
(the father uses his authority to make the son into the sort of human being he, rightly, and in his superior wisdom, wants him to be); So you are saying that a fascist should be aloud to brainwash his children into his biggoted way of thinking.
Further, God is fully acquainted with us. Therefore
He knows what will truly make us happy. “When we want to be something other than the thing God wants us to be, we must be wanting what, in fact, will not
make us happy.â€So homosexuals should be straigh because being gay makes them unhappy, well i suppose being killed for your sexuality by some religious bigot would make you unhappy.
‘God was clear when he commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.’ Well if god is all knowing as you say he is he would have known that man would disobey him and eat from the tree, so why did he create the tree in the first place as surely he would have known that it would cause huge amounts of unessasary suffering and so your god obviously wished to cause suffering and would be a evil sadistic cunt if he exsisted.
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I think I will spend this perfectly good time for another awsome story from 13! involving subminimal unchristians messages!
Once upon a time there was nothing. A vacuum. And as we all know, an interesting property of the vacuum is that things randomly appear inside. Well, the first forms ever to appear was the female human form. Unfortunately, since She was in a vacuum, Her body fell apart to fill the entire space the vacuum covered. And yet, it only covered the same area as a grapefruit, so She got compressed into a meatball. Before She was compressed She exhaled, and air was injected into the universe. Well, so much air came out, with such force, (after all it was squeezed out of her) that the universe suddenly expanded. The air was pulled in by the gravity of the meatball, and the first planet was made. This planet was Mars. And the moisture from Her breath condensed into water, and small germs on Her body thrived in the new environment, and grew. And She nurtured and loved them well. Unfortunately they soon grew into horrendous insectlike creatures, and so She grew sad and coldhearted. The cold froze all the water, and the atmosphere slipped away. Then She made a new race of germs, and planted in them the seed of her own form, and then hurled them from her body. They flew and landed on a neighboring planet, and this was a planet full of earth and water.
To Be Continued…
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ok enough time wasted here…
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@ 13 Well at least I know now that God was a woman! That answers that!
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@ Nikkie… Hi.. Hiiii…. Hiiiiiiiiiiii
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@ Rodger the Cabin Boy.
You can’t use that Adam/Eve argument with Nic, because the bible is an obviously just a bunch of stories which I don’t think he takes literally. Christians only emphasize the passages they find conveniant to their argument, as do you and I, and the rest is explained away as a metaphor we havent understood yet. In fact, if Christians did (take it literaly) they would have to give up their overly cherished monotheism, because the Genesis and Exodus clearly suggest the existance of other gods.
one example: Genesis says that Yahweh mentions that if adam and eve ate the fruit of the tree they would be like the gods, knowing good and evil, imlying that their are indeed other gods.
And remember Moseses obcenely unethical miracles? The Pharoah’s magicians worked magic as well, suggesting other gods. What the whole passage implies is a battle between gods through their people.
In fact, the bible is contradictory to almost all “christian beleifs” and if you look through it and at the time periods during each passage was written, you will see that it is riddled with political motives. Wartime passages involve an angry smiting god and create war heroes. Most educated “Christians” know this. The thing that puzzles me is how they manage to acnowlage that the bible is founded on a completely immoral and political base, and yet still be so influenced if a politician continues the tradition by saying that the bible is against gay marraige or some other issue.
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haha yes swabbies that was part of the subminimal messaging. I guess I should be more subtle!
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I have proof that Adam and Eve were Polish…..
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A Brit, a Frenchman and a Pole are viewing a painting of Adam and Eve frolicking in the Garden of Eden.
“Look at their reserve, there calm,” muses the Brit. “They must be British.”
“Nonsense,” the Frenchman disagrees. “They’re naked, and so beautiful. Clearly, they are French.”
“No clothes, no shelter,” the Pole points out, “they have only an apple to eat, and they’re being told this is paradise. Clearly, they are Polish.”
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hahahahaha Swabbies
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And then the Germs split into two races. One which was independent and uncooperative, and the other which banded together and formed small colenies. Some of them settled and grew. Others were nomadic and moved around. The tribes were warlike. The warrior germs protected against the independent germs within the immune system. If any of the tribe died, the body would be piled on the pheriphery of the tribe as a wall. Most of the tribes were lowly and not following Her word on how to grow, but one did grow into an animal. Unfortunately half of the race of animals had a horribly mutated and crippled chromosome, and deviated from Her instructions. But this was a neccesary evil, as the human form could not come without sexuality. And finally one grew who did resemble Her form. But by then She has died, her body crumbled into dust under the coldness. And her Ghost said unto them, “worship me” but they did not hear the call. So her ghost lept into the strings that made the universe and breathed life into them, but as yet She had no form. So She decended unto Her chosen people, and behold! she saw vast feilds of grain that her people hath cultivated. She decended and said to the Wheat, lie with me, and I will bear you such a son that men will tremble under your might.
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But the Wheat would not for it was lazy, and so Her wrath was invoked and she cursed the Wheat. Cursed shall be you, and you shall never leave this state of being Woman’s main foodstuff! I shall bless him who eats of you with long life, vigour, and appetite, and her who cooks you with strong children, and thus Grain Eaters shall multiply their seed. And thus you shall perish under his hunger, whilst She perish for the same reason, and her husband, for He hath deviated from my true form and hath disobeyed me.
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Then She scattered Her ghost among the wheats, and lay therein. For millenium she grew amongst the wheat, and soon a great love rose between them. And the Wheat hath said unto Her: You cannot bear a son by me, for You and I are of the same gender, for I spawn more wheat and so am female, and to bear you a son, one must deviate from the true path. But neither would. And so She said unto the Wheat: Let us merge our souls as one. And they did so. But woe! As they merged, a small dragon’s worm merged with them unnoticed! And it t’was a male worm. And thus that wheat which merged with her contained the element of the Worms maleness, and therein the entity that arose was Him.
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And He waited, and the Wheat among which He had merged was processed into Spaghetti, and brought to the plate of man. And man hath just lain with his wife, and so was naked, but he was gluttonous and also spent and hungry, and so he did wrap his unworthy fork with Him. And then as the Man did eat, he said unto himself “Woe! there beith a Worm in my Sphaggeti. And the Dragonfly was mishapen within the Mans teeth, and he spat it out, and behold! it was a meatball. And the Sphaggeti hath gained the power of flight, as the Worm had sprouted Wings and had become a Dragonfly, before it hath become Meat. And the FSM did turn His gaze upon the Man, and touched him upon the forfinger (see pic above). And the Man was Blessed.
To be continued some other time~
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@nic:
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If I understand your argument, it’s that absolute morality cannot arise independently. In other words, you’re invoking a variation on the “Prime Mover” argument.
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This fails for several reasons. Firstly, it hinges upon the premise that “If you can’t point to some other cause for X, then X must be caused by a deity.” Nonsense. What’s wrong with “We don’t (or can’t) know”? That sort of logic can be used to demonstrate the existence of anything, up to and including the FSM.
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Secondly, it assumes absolute morality is a valid concept. There are certainly pretty strong points of agreement between most folks on a lot of issues (and argument on others), but there’s no mathematical-like demonstration of an absolute morality. You’ve got to define it to be so, at which point you’re engaged in utterly circular logic.
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Thirdly, it is a mistake to impose a thoroughly digital yes-no, black-white mathematical model on the real world. It’d be convenient if that were possible, but it’s not. C.f. Goedels Incompleteness Theorem. In other words, why should the natural world be constrained to behave in a fashion currently understandable by you? Isn’t that merely human hubris?
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Fourthly, there’s a bit of ambiguity in what is meant by “morality.” In particular, how do you distinguish it from “ethics?” I hope we can agree that ethics can evolve by societal conventions. (As Arthur C. Clarke out it, “The majority is always ‘right.’”) So what then does “morality” encompass that ethics do not? If one claims that morality is between one’s self and one’s god, then you’re sort of right: Atheists (and arguably, agnostics) have no “morality.” But who needs it? They’re still good people, they merely do not recognize a convenient imaginary placeholder.
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If however, one claims that morality deals with the sins one commits on one’s self, and ethics with those one commits on others, the for shame! Atheists are decent, self respecting people too. And frankly, I’ve seen enough folks use the “I’m not perfect, merely forgiven” excuse to justify a lot of pretty unethical (in my opinion) behavior.
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Swabbie,
You never even asked me a question? You just wrote a bunch of verses, and songs.
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13,
First, where do you get your information about the Bible?
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Second, I do not quote Scripture as proof texts, but rather to state the Biblical position.
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Concerning you post on Dec 2nd, 2006 at 12:54 pm:
a.) Yes, for the most part, that is what I am saying. However, I do believe that there is a good reason for atheists to be moral. It is good for the majority. Yet, someone can argue that it is good for the future majority to perform mass exterminations, and you can only differentiate between the two mathematically. There is no absolute moral code (for the atheists) by which to differentiate the two opinions.
b.) I have not argued for that position. I believe morals are simply a reflection of the person, character, and nature of God. They are not inherent only in this universe.
c.) No, I have not argued for that position either. I have argued that things are as they are because God desired authentic love and fellowship outside of His Triune Self, and that in order to experience that authentic love and fellowship He had to make and allow things exactly as they are.
d.) No! Suffering aids our knowledge of our intentions not God’s. Further, worship is an extremely misunderstood concept. Worship is being a human and correctly enjoying the things God has given us. It certainly is not bowing and repeating religious jargon. Obedience to God is simply compliance with the laws of the only possible existence. It is comparable to a child who doesn’t play in the street because his parents warned him about the possible consequences. I am operation from a perspective, which considers sin as something much greater than simply disobedience. Sin is seen from this perspective as something outside of the person, character, and nature, of God, which inherently causes death (i.e. separation from God).
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Sorry the post is so long.
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Roger the Cabin boy,
In a previous post I wrote, “Miracles are instances when God modifies the behavior of matter, but a stable world demands that these occasions should be extremely rare.†You commented, “Yes and several thousand years ago with no unbiased witnesses to record it.” – However, Josephus records that Jesus was a miracle worker. Further the “biased” accounts of Jesus’ miracles were written and in circulation during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. This gave 1st century readers, such as Luke’s Theophilus, the opportunity to check out the facts for themselves.
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One Eyed Jack,
You wrote, “Murder as a moral wrong IS supportable by naturalistic evolution.” You then went on to write a short description of how natural selection could account for this opinion. Hitler wrote a description of how another position on murder could be supported by natural selection. You don’t have to believe in God, but at least be logical. Matter & Energy + Time & Chance = Relative Morality
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The fact that you and the majority of everyone else on this site, with the exception of the fantastically honest and logical gill, is arguing against this reality is the strength of the argument. It shows that the logical conclusions of atheism are insufficient for all of what is observable.
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Peace
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OK! For ANYBODY that can read, I know most here can.
Did this guy just cement what I said or what?
Ramen
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@Swabbies Bucket
Yes he did fundis are so much better at proving our points than we are and they don’t even try to.
Ramen
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PS I’m sorry for my long post too…. Also, But they taught me how to say what I wanted to say in less then 18,00000000000000 words and to be effective too!
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@ Rodger the cabin boy
You are right of course. I just wished I had a reach in an delete botton on my keyboard.
I’d fix alot of problems, I would!
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Nic. You should. First you asked ‘Who made those laws? What gives them the right? You said that murderers are “sick†and that they “need to be put awayâ€. -what gives anyone the right to judge the behavior of another human’ I answered.Then, appearently not pleased about it you decided to change your question to;” Is it ever moral to kill a completely innocent person?†and cliamed I had missed the point. And from reading the rest of your posts,it is plain to see that you do the same thing to everyone eles here, if you don’t like the answers,or your so full of yourself that you can’t bare that your questions were so easily answered, you simply change the question and try again and again to make yourself out to be the brightest bulb in the bunch. Clearly this has never happened yet. Why do you insist on comming back when there is nothing here that will ever please you? There is nothing here for you period. Perhaps you are secretly unhappy with your choice of faith and you find yourself drawn here because you hope to find a way out. You know,like that Ted Haggard guy who kept bashing gays all the time but couldn’t manage to stay away from the sexy young male hookers. If you have some deep down problems with your faith, you need to ask yourself these questions and be honest with yourself about the answers.-I give up. But good luck anyway.
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I really love all of our frontline posters (postees?) You all know who you are.
You guys rock :) :)
RAmen
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They’re a bad ass bunch! They are!
Ramen
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@ Nic. It is you, isn’t it? Michael?
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Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthane?
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LALALALALALALALALALALALALA
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Dang it felt good to get that out!
Ramen
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@ Alchemist, The LALA’s weren’t directed at you, we posted at the samr time.
Ramen
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Swabbies – am I getting a bit too up my own arse?
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Swabbies Bucket Dec 2nd, 2006 at 4:25 pm
‘They’re a bad ass bunch! They are!”
Ramen
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Both you and Alchemist were included in my reference.
RAmen
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Thanks. But??? I think I do.
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First of all, I can’t get anyone to believe I had a wife.
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Second, would you be shooting her with a Pasta maker?
Not an Italian chef, I mean one of those Ronco gadgets.
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Third, you appear to be neither Pasta nor pirate so
I’m not sure I believe in you and thus not sure I
should give a Stuffed Shell whether you shoot or not.
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Fourth, Henny Youngmen said: “Shoot my wife, please!”
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Fifth, michael martin? Are you two thirds of the 80’s
country singer michael martin murphy?
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Sixth, what do you mean by problem?
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Seventh, on the seventh day the “Noodly Goodness” rested.
(I’m not sure though. Damn, I’ve got to read the scripture!)
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Eighth, do people call you Eminem for short?
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Ninth, that’s all I got.
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Wench Nikkie – I hope you include yer good self in that? PS I did remember but decided I was being a prick!
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@ Nikkie, yea I kinda figured you put me in that crowd. LOL
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@ Alchemist, I’m lost ?
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@ String Cheese Jesus, funny funny!
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Why the hell are we all posting at the same time? Is there some kind of intelligence behind it?
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Aliens I’ll bet. Probably the same ones that left the probe in nic’s neverneverland :)
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Swabbies, don’t worry. That was for another post, one which I have lost. That’ll teach me to try to do more than one thing at a time.
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RAmen
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Alchemist Dec 2nd, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Why the hell are we all posting at the same time? Is there some kind of intelligence behind it?
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I’ll bet it’s that intelligent design thingie.
Ramen
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Swabbies – arr. I knew a rational explanation be behind it, so I did. Hell, I sound Cornish now. Alright my lover?
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Orthodox Agnostic,
You wrote, “…It (Anthropological argument) hinges upon the premise that “If you can’t point to some other cause for X, then X must be caused by a deity.†– I’ll accept that. I will concede that there could be a “Hidden Answer”. However, surely you can see that the atheistic answers fail miserably. So I recant. If there is a moral absolute it does not necessitate the existence of God. However, it does negate the atheistic presuppositions. And it is a rational reason for people to consider theistic options.
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You also wrote, “…It (Anthropological argument) assumes absolute morality is a valid concept…but there’s no mathematical-like demonstration of an absolute morality.” I agree. However, and asking this question is certain to make swabbies cringe, does that mean that murdering INNOCENT people is only wrong if it is mathematically provable. Obviously, that could never be done.
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I agree that the world is extremely complicated. Thankfully the early modern scientist believed they could develop an understanding of the cosmos, and they acted upon that belief. It’s only lately that the world has been seen as incomphrehensible. This is thanks to the various interpretations of quantum mechanics. I personally, as did Einstein, subscribe to the “Hidden Variable Theory”. This theory is ironically similar to the first proof of fallacy you offered for the anthropological argument.
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Penee and Swabbies,
All I can figure is that the two of you have mastered the art of blissful ignorance. You have not even…
I give up.
I hope rational people will take the time to read some of the dialogue I shared with One Eyed Jack, 13, gill, and Jingles.
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I guess one can’t really be upset that he hasn’t found very much intelligent conversation on a sight dedicated to spaghetti.
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Peace and Goodbye
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- String Cheese Jesus- Fifth, michael martin? Are you two thirds of the 80’s
country singer michael martin murphy? -I almost peed my panties
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I’m I good or evil… You must choose!
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Hoo-kers, we got hoo-kers,-we got lots and lots of hoo-kers…………
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Bye bye, nic, bye bye now.
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I’m sorry dr nic, but I’ve told you, I’ve only an 8th grade edumacation.
Why are you trying to talk at my level?
Seems foolish to me? I mean, I don’t try to talk grown up to kindiegartners?
Seems kinda pointless to me? bye bye now.
Ramen
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I guess one can’t really be upset that he hasn’t found very much intelligent conversation on a sight dedicated to spaghetti.
A fundi insultin our intelligence that hasn’t happened before has it now.
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it’s OK, it’s alright, FSM gonna treat you right-it’s alright, it’s OK, FSM don’t care if your gay………….
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