flimsy moral standards? Lets see here.
If I were to shoot your wife, would you have a problem with that?
-michael martin
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An elaborate spoof on Intelligent Design, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is neither too elaborate nor too spoofy to succeed in nailing the fallacies of ID. It's even wackier than Jonathan Swift's suggestion that the Irish eat their children as a way to keep them from being a burden, and it may offend just as many people, but Henderson, described elsewhere as a 25-year-old "out-of-work physics major," puts satire to the same serious use that Swift did. Oh, yes, it is very funny. -- Scientific American
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@13
Your dream may mean:
1.) You will be betrayed by something you like
2.) Someone will eat your pasta
3.) The FSM has spoken to you, and warned you of danger
that’s all I can make of it, cause I’m no dream-interpreter
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Well said OEJ
RAmen
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RAmen Pastafarian Theologian OEJ
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Jewcy’s Big Question: Why Are Atheists So Angry?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/jewcys-big-question-why_b_35180.html
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The person that wrote this, in your link. Is just an angry person. If he believed in a God, he’d be pissed at his God, and everybody else just the same. Some people are like that.
Maybe some Holy Raviolis would fix him up!
.
/
As an atheist, I am angry that we live in a society in which the plain truth cannot be spoken without offending 90% of the population. The plain truth is this: There is no good reason to believe in a personal God; there is no good reason to believe that the Bible, the Koran, or any other book was dictated by an omniscient being; we do not, in any important sense, get our morality from religion; the Bible and the Koran are not, even remotely, the best sources of guidance we have for living in the 21st century; and the belief in God and in the divine provenance of scripture is getting a lot of people killed unnecessarily./
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-13-I belive your dream may mean that you are lonely, you need to get a pet with which you can share your love of pasta.(perhaps a meatball shaped one) RAmen.
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Many well loved pets end up meatball shaped in the end anyway Penne. Especially if fed on pasta.
RAmen
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LONELY?
NEED SALVATION?
You’l NEVER be alone again with the Jesus Christ inflateable
doll!. He WANTS to suffer for YOUR sins!. BE the Devil on christ’s back!. Featuring realistic vibrating lamb of God!!. Follow this link http://www.answersingenesis.org/
to buy your PERSONAL saviour today!
made from durable consecrated ripstop rubber
crucifix and lubricant sold seperately
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neofelis I think you’re full of it, I checked your link and didn’t find what you’re tallking about, instead I found B.S.
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hahahaha
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@Parmesan the Greated: everything on answeringenesis.org is bullshit.
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Ken Hamm sounds like such a nice man. You couldn’t imagine someone who looks like that being nasty could you? Really, I’m sure he’s a very nice man, well that is until you start pointing out to him what a lying sack of **** he actually is.
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Morals existed long before christianity, and will exist long after christianity fizzles out
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@Pureé Reason
If only more people had them…
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Hello friends,
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I’m impressed. You noodle heads are extremely creative, intelligent, and passionate.
/
I was reading through the post and I couldn’t help but notice a few trends: misinterpretation and consequent misapplication of Scripture, an ignorance to the logical conclusions of atheism, and a very romantic and hypocritically audacious imposition, that is, existential (individual) morality being treated as if it were an absolute. The later of my observations is the primary reason for my post.
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I would like to think that my theology accurately represents Christianity. However, much of my understanding, many of my ideas, and most of me would be considered extremely unorthodox by the majority in mainstream Christianity.
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Brother Bartholomew is correct when he writes, “ID… is NOT SCIENCE.” However, this is only true because the present-day definition of science excludes any non-natural explanations. Before you start typing a rebuttal keep this in mind: Both Alfred North Whitehead (Harvard) and J. Robert Oppenheimer (Princeton), neither of whom to my knowledge were Christian or anything similar, have stressed that modern science was born out of the Christian worldview. That is, because the early scientist believed that a reasonable God created the world, they had, as Whitehead explains, an “inexpugnable belief that every detailed occurrence can be correlated with its antecedents in a perfectly definite manner, exemplifying general principles.” He continues, “Without this belief the incredible labors of scientists would be without hope.”
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I noticed a myriad of comments about God and hell above. Let me simply say this: God is love. God is just. Hell is extremely individually relative.
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“There is something feeble and little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed.â€
-Bertrand Russell,
Human Society in Ethics and Politics (1954)
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I agree with Bertrand here. However, I believe the atheist is the man who refuses to admit he lives irrationally. The atheist lives in complete contradiction to the logical presuppositions of his worldview. This is the romantic and hypocritically audacious imposition I referred to above. I will illustrate my point with a question:
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Swabbies Bucket wrote, “We do not, in any important sense, get our morality from religion….”
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Where does morality come from?
/
I could summarize all the responses I will receive ahead of time, but it’s more fun and interesting when it is personal.
Peace
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In my reply to the Bertrand Russel quote I meant to write, “The atheist lives in complete contradiction to the logical conclusions of his worldview.” I’m not sure how I made that mistake.
/
peace
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@nic:
First, it is wonderful to have a soft-spoken Christian visit our site, as most do not accurately display the effects of humanized evolution (just look through the hate-mails). feel free to post again anytime, even if we believe nothing of your views.
Second, we DO completely disagree with your beliefs. an athiest is simply someone who does not have a religion, someone who chooses to see things as they are, not creating a calming illusion. as to God being love, if he is then whay did he create hell? after all, you say he created everything. morality comes from the human itself, not their beliefs.
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Harris on morals:
“Who decides what’s good in the Good Book? Answer: We do!”
I once enforced a few of the Judeo-Christian God’s morals found in Leviticus and was convicted of murder.
I got off because one of the FSM’s Holy Appendages erased the whole file.
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The logical conclusions of our worldview are simple:
There is no God(s)/Godess(es)
There can be no God(s)/Godess(es)
most all religions believe that theirs is the only correct way. ask a Hindi, and they will say that there are thousands of gods. ask a Christian, and they will say that there is only one. many of us athiests belive that the world simply what it is: cosmically, not even slightly important. it takes more strength to face true reality than it does to create your own.
How do we live in contradiction of these terms?
thank you, RAmen, and
/
peace.
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Gnocci Man,
Thanks for the invitation.
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So morality comes from within each individual human? That would make morality individually relative, right? That is, there is no absolute moral standard, right? (If it’s not obvious, I’m setting you up.)
/
Warning!!! I am considered by some to be a rather verbose individual. I hope you will take the time to read what follows. If you are unwilling please at least read the last few paragraphs, beginning with the sentence: “GOD DOES NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL!†I think you will miss some very key and possibly surprising ideas if you skip down, but please at least read that section.
/
The truth about God, Hell, and Humanity:
/
The Bible states very clearly that everyone will spend eternity somewhere. Matthew 25:31-46 is a good example. However, when reading this passage it should be kept in mind that “good works†are a consequence of salvation and not the means by which a person can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9/James 2:17-18/Matthew 24:46). Salvation comes through faith alone. Placing their trust in Jesus Christ’s vicarious death on the cross saves a person. A person must admit that they are a sinner, and in need of salvation. A person must believe that God loves them so much that He died in their place and took their punishment for sin. After a person places faith in Christ they enter into relationship with the Triune God and they can begin to uncover life.
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Both heaven and hell are eternal. – They will last forever.
Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.†(NKJV)
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Heaven (the kingdom) was prepared for Gnocci Man and the rest of humanity. God never intended for Humans to go to hell. Matthew 25:34, “Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.†(NKJV)
/
Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.†(NKJV) The everlasting fire is not a literal fire; it is symbolic for eternal death, or more specifically, eternal separation from God. Fire would be horrible, but separation and solitude will be worse.
/
God created us to be in fellowship with Him.
Ephesians 1:5, “His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into His own family by bringing us to Himself through Jesus Christ And this gave Him great pleasure.†(NLT)
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Our sins separate us from God.
Isaiah 59:2, “But your iniquities have separated you from your God. And your sins have hidden His face from you….†(NKJV)
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God is holy and cannot tolerate the presence of sin.
Leviticus 10:1-3, “Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. And Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD spoke, saying: ‘By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy….†(NKJV)
God didn’t want to break out against those guys. But He had to, as Millard J. Erickson put it, “God is, as it were, allergic to sin and evil.â€
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God practices perfect justice.
Deuteronomy 32:4, “The Rock, His work is perfect, for all His ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is He.†(ESV)
Imagine someone commits a crime. Imagine they get caught red-handed and then brought before the judge. If the judge is a good judge will he let the criminal go unpunished? No, if the judge is a good judge, he will punish the criminal for his crime. God is the perfect judge.
/
The Penalty must be paid.
Look what the Bible says about the punishment for sin:
Romans 6:23a, “For the wages of sin is death ….†(NKJV)
Hell is death. Our sin puts us on death row. We are facing the ultimate death penalty. Only death can pay the death penalty. Thankfully, the penalty has been paid.
Romans 6:23b, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.†(NKJV)
/
I’m a momma’s boy. My mom loves me. My siblings say I’m her favorite. I don’t know about that, but here’s what I do know: If my mom could she would go before God and say, “God, I understand that Nic has a death penalty to pay, and I’m here to pay it. Take my life in place of his. God’s reply might be something like this, “Rhonda that is admirable, but you can’t pay Nic’s death penalty because you have your own to pay.â€
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Jesus was sinless and is thus the only acceptable substitute for the sins of an individual. Jesus had no death penalty to pay and because of His great love He paid ours.
1Peter 3:18, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.†(NKJV)
/
God is holy so he must judge sin; however, he is also merciful and in order to maintain both His perfect justice and mercy, He died in our place. He suffered a horrible death. He took our punishment. He did it because He is a loving God.
GOD DOES NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL!
/
1Timothy 2:3b-6a, “…God our Savior…desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all….†(NKJV)
I love my wife. I hope that she never leaves me, but I don’t want to chain her up in our home so that she can’t leave. I want her to love me with an authentic love, and be with me because she desires to do so. It’s the same with God. God is a gentleman. He did not want robots that were forced to love Him so He created men with freewill.
/
Think about this: It grieves God for His creations to perish. However, He was willing to endure that kind of heartache just to enjoy authentic fellowship with the ones who would allow Him to save them. Imagine a man who knows that in order for him to experience the joys of having children his wife will have to endure horrible pain and they will have to lose many children. Imagine that somehow he knew those children that would be lost, and I mean really knew them intimately. Know this: God desires all men to be saved, and He was willing to endure the heartache of losing some for the joys of having the others.
/
God doesn’t want anyone to perish. People choose to go to hell, because they choose to remain separated from God. The person who experiences hell has rejected God’s way to escape their punishment. Sin is a person going through life saying, “Go away God.†Hell is God finally granting their wish. As C.S. Lewis has put it, “The doors of hell are locked on the inside.â€
/
peace
/
If you are interested in the concept of an individually relative nature of hell, I wil post on that concept.
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-nic, Of course many (not all) of the early scientist were Christian, most people were back then,but back then,as science was a fairly new concept, religious leaders didn’t try to deny it and demonize it so much-at first. Humans have always been courious about the world around them,it’s the reson they have survived this long. Our ancestors tried new things to eat, experimented with crude tools which became more and more complex, developed words and other means of communication. In other words; they adapted, they evolved. And as their minds became more complex so did their reactions to the world around them. They evolved feelings. When something happened that made them afraid or sad, they didn’t like it, they thought it was bad or wrong. -A ‘moral’ if you like. Even a small child knows when it dislikes something, long before they can understand a passage from the bible. My cat knows it is wrong to go pee pee on the carpet, dose this mean she’s been reading up on morality when I go out shopping for undergarments? I should hope not, the last thing I need is a naggy cat. The ten commandments are a lovely set of well written rules, presented for all to see, but the truth is that they only restate what people had already known very well for themselves. It’s that little voice inside your head that tells you right from wrong( if it tells you other stuff, you need to get that checked by a shrink). It is also the result of generations of learning what is good and works from what is bad and dangerous-instincts. The same reason my cat’s mother taught her not to doo doo in the den. I know not to steal, kill and lie, and she knows to potty in a hole and bury it. A bit more basic, but effective none the less. And as for “an atheist lives in complete contradiction to the logical conclusions of his worldview.†that is not true and makes no sense. An atheist may live in complete contradiction to a religious worldview but not his or her own.
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-Gnocci Man,You what what they say in the horror movies: NEVER invite them in.
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nic’s back.
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@Penne:
Sorry, but I felt it would be a good thing to argue with the more intelligent side of their religion. it would hardly make us in any way legit athiests if we weren’t able to effectively and clearly argue our views. maybe we should try to get some more pastafarian scientists into this thread, as I am often limited on time.
-see you at the beer volcano
RAmen
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@Nic
Yes, as Gnocchi man said, it is nice to have an intelligent and civil Christian onboard. However, while claiming the logic of our beliefs is false and claiming that we have misinterpreted your beliefs (or scripture) you have done the same alleged diservice to us.
You imply in the first section of your post that we claim our morals to be absolute, “an ignorance to the logical conclusions of atheism, and a very romantic and hypocritically audacious imposition, that is, existential (individual) morality being treated as if it were an absolute. ” To begin, existentialism is much more about ones understanding of reality than it is about morals. Being that it is individualistic it is in a way outside the realm of morality. Morals are a social construct. Example, there is one piece of fruit and two hungry people. Pure individualism would lead to one of the two people starving. Morality arrises when they split the fruit and each gets a half. Did they do this because their God commanded it, possibly, but it is possible that they did this because they realize there is benefit to having companionship (society on a larger scale) in a dangerous world. This certainly does not disprove God’s existence, as nothing really can, but it does illustrate in a simple way that morality does not NEED to be absolute. You are simply repeating the classic argument by C.S. Lewis, that morality is a “signpost” to God. For me, it is no more proof of God’s existence today then it was when he wrote it decades ago. The bottom lines is, morals need not and should not be absolute, they should evolve as do organisms, society and culture. Did the morals of the bible not evolve from the Old Testament to the New?
@Gnocchi Man
I started a website for the Brotherhood of the Potato Pastas: brotherhoodofthepotatopastas.blogspot.org
Not much there yet, but I would like for you to join the order. We are like the jesuits, just more chipper.
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Wench Nikkiee, did you like the rest of the story?
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Surely you have been through all this in your many past posts nic. BTW do you remember which thread they were on nic?
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Jesus Loves Me
Jesus loves me this I know
For the Bible tells me so
Little ones to Him belong
They are weak but He is strong
[Chorus]
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me
The Bible tells me so
Jesus loves me
He who died
Heaven’s gate to open wide
He will wash away my sin
Let His little child come in
[Chorus]
Jesus loves me
He will stay
Close beside me all the way
He’s prepared a home for me
And some day His face I’ll see
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@Mista Gnocchi
most assuredly, I shall be there! Let the potatoe pastas flourish, and may the brotherhood grow until all may experience its savory starchiness!
RAmen
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Deuteronomy 13:8-9
‘You must kill them. Show them no pity. And your hand must strike the first blow.’
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Leviticus 20:13
‘If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.’
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Deuteronomy 21:20
‘They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.”‘
.
Deuteronomy 21:21
‘All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.’
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-a man can not have sex with a man in same way as with a woman, men don’t have vaginas……normaly
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Deuteronomy 21:22
‘If a man who commits a sin worthy of death is put to death, and you hang him from a tree…’
.
Deuteronomy 21:23
‘…his body must not remain on the tree overnight.’
.
Deuteronomy 21:23
‘You must bury him on the same day, for a hanged man is accursed of God.’
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I really like playing bible. Can we play some other time?
************************************************
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Exodus 23:19
‘You will not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.’
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oh, great. its JLYT again. get this: I don’t believe in Jesus. I don’t believe in immaculate conception. I don’t believe in God, and I don’t believe in smug gloating about a really old book of fiction that is self-contridictory, disgustingly violent, and very, very egotistical.
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Exodus 21:2
‘When you purchase a Hebrew slave…’
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Exodus 21:2
‘…his service will last for six years.’
.
Exodus 21:2,4
‘In the seventh year he will leave a free man. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and children will belong to the master, and he will depart alone.’
.
God is wonderful…
Peace on Earth and Love Jesus!
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-If a man who commits a sin worthy of death is put to death, and you hang him from a tree…’then you have commited a sin and are worthy of death and have to go out and find someone to hang you and then they have commited a sin…….
.
Deuteronomy 21:23
‘…his body must not remain on the tree overnight.’ this will cause spoilage and can spread samonila, you must either finish the leftovers or refridgate them right away!
.
Deuteronomy 21:23
‘You must bury him on the same day, for a hanged man is accursed of God. his parents have spent all their money on a flight to see his hang’n day and they need to get back home tonight so they can go to work in the morning and pay their bills on time.
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How much is it to ask for a decent, peaceful, non-violent religion?
It’s like we pastafarians are the only ones who don’t try to kill everyone.
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Deuteronomy 15:16
‘But if the slave says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family, and is well off with you…’
.
Deuteronomy 15:17
‘…then you must take an awl and drive it through the slave’s ear and into the door. He will be your servant forever.’
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Why don’t the fundies that come here ever quote the rest of the bible?
They dig deep to find nice things, which I will add, are few and far between.
I hate fundies! They are dummys…..
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Micheal Martin,
I find your jest to be in terrible taste, as it raises the point that us Pastafarians can only model after our benevolent creator and feel no hate towards you. However, this is where the legal system kicks in, and thanks to the separation of church and state, I am free to make sure you are sent to prison with a cell mate that nick-names you “Bunk Muffin.”
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-or Bunk Bagle,and he can call him Papa Bread Stick
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Penne,
You said that the “ten commandments restate what people had already known very well for themselves. It’s that little voice inside your head that tells you right from wrong.” – Sounds good. But suppose some large people-group arises, and that these people’s “little voices” tells them that the exact oppisite of what your little voice tells you. Who’s right?
/
You also wrote, “Even a small child knows when it dislikes something, long before they can understand a passage from the bible.” – A lot of what the world considers immoral feels good to the person comitting the act. It’s usually someone else who is offended. Why did we evolve empathy? And who’s to say we should care about the next man. (Please don’t say, “Because it’s the right thing to do.” That’s circular reasoning. A please don’t say, “Empathy is what is best for mankind.” That’s not true at all from a rational naturalistic standpoint, which is supposedly where atheist operate from.)
/
Does an atheist have any right to impose a moral standard on the world? -No! The atheist simply has to deal with what ever happens. The atheist has a right to her or his own opinion; however, they must simply keep it to themselves.
/
Mista Gnocchi has accused me of restating C.S. Lewis’ argument; however, I’m actually putting a slight spin to it. I am not arguing for an absolute standard. At least, not at this point. I am simply trying to illustrate that if there is an absolute standard, God must exist.
/
C.S. Lewis wrote, “Human beings, all over the earth, have this curios idea that they ought to behave in a certain way.â€
/
Lewis called this “the Law of Human Nature.†All people inherently believe that some things are absolutely wrong and some things are right. Inside of the human psyche are two buckets. In one bucket we put the things, which we consider good, and the things, which we consider bad we place in the other bucket. The question pertinent here is not what goes into these buckets, but rather, where did these buckets come from?
/
Some will say that these “buckets†have been learned. They will argue that people learn right and wrong, good and bad from their parents, school, and so forth. This would mean that there is really no such thing as evil; and morals are relative to each situation and person. However, if you ask, “Is murdering innocent people wrong?†will anyone respond, “Depends on the situation.†This is an extreme example, but it proves that there is an absolute moral standard. And if there is an absolute moral standard, there has to be a God. Why? Matter and energy are silent; matter and energy could careless if someone is murdered.
/
Maybe you’re thinking, “We as people establish the absolute moral standard. We as highly evolved beings have learned and taught ourselves that we should do what’s best for the masses and the preservation of life. We as morally conscious beings not only are capable of and have established that standard, but by the wisdom of the majority will continue to do so.â€
/
Sounds good, but lots of innocent people have been murdered for what was deemed best for the masses. In fact, if there is no God, and we, as people want to do what’s best for the masses and the preservation of life, we should kill innocent people. The guy who came up with the phrase “survival of the fittest†was named Herbert Spencer. He once wrote, “The poverty of the incapable…starvation of the idle and those shoulderings aside of the weak by the strong…are the decrees of a large far seeing benevolence.†His ideas, which have their roots in Darwin’s interpretation of natural selection, eventually played a huge role in the rise of National Socialism in Nazi Germany. Francis Schaeffer has pointed out that to the Nazis some people “were an unwanted burden on society – parasites who consumed more than they gave.†Considering the rising population and the inevitable depletion of our natural resources, wouldn’t it be best for the masses and the preservation of life if we kill the elderly, handicap, mentally ill, and anyone one else who isn’t making a strong contribution to the whole?
/
Obviously, that type of thinking is purely evil. However, it has been thought. People who considered humanity capable of deciding what’s best for humanity have thought it. My reason for mentioning this type of thinking is to illustrate that just because the majority says a thing is good or bad doesn’t make it so. The majority is incapable of inventing the absolute moral standard because it will always be relative and arbitrary; it will be anything but absolute. Some will say that humanity is constantly learning, and making improvements in the area of morals. This only further proves the point. If we are improving, we are getting closer to perfection. Perfection is the absolute moral standard, which proves God’s existence.
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“The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard…you are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality.†– C.S. Lewis
/
Is murdering innocent people wrong? Yes. How do we know that it’s wrong? How do we know that it’s absolutely wrong? We know because there is an absolute moral standard, and if there is an absolute moral standard, God must exist.
/
peace
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Wench Nikkiee,
Yes I have been over this one before. My previous posts were on “I wouldn’t want to be you….”
Peace
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@nic
Asshole… pull your head out of your asshole…. Know this…
Jesus will save you… Because you and him are the love kids of a whore!
He has a place in heaven.. just for you!
.
Stick with Jesus… We here don’t love you… we have no beer for you!!!
So go back to the Jesus board… And leave us The Fuck alone….
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I wish Stoning was as readily available via Internet, as it were in biblical times!
Oh hell yea! I’d have a GOD DAMN Hoilday!
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nic-#1-I already told you,if they are telling you naughty things you need to see a shrink,#2,we evolved empathy for the same reason animals did ; our young can’t take care of themselves and humans had a better chance of survival living in groups,just as monkies will groom one another people learned to take care of each other and consider their fellows, it is in their best intrest.#3,Does an atheist have any right to impose a moral standard on the world? No, of course not, but everyone has a right to her or his own opinion;even Christians, however, they must simply keep it to themselves.-RAmen
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@Penne Nov 30th, 2006 at 1:04 pm
Wench Nikkiee, did you like the rest of the story?
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Penne….is that the end????? What about the librarians?
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@nic
Hi nic
Just thought the rest might like to take it up from there. Good for disscussion for those who are familiar with scripture. Don’t read it my self. Peace to you too nic.
RAmen
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