flimsy moral standards? Lets see here.
If I were to shoot your wife, would you have a problem with that?
-michael martin
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An elaborate spoof on Intelligent Design, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is neither too elaborate nor too spoofy to succeed in nailing the fallacies of ID. It's even wackier than Jonathan Swift's suggestion that the Irish eat their children as a way to keep them from being a burden, and it may offend just as many people, but Henderson, described elsewhere as a 25-year-old "out-of-work physics major," puts satire to the same serious use that Swift did. Oh, yes, it is very funny. -- Scientific American
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Miscellaneous
Bobby's Blog
Contact Bobby: Contact Me
Fr. Corpus Callosum, the Easter bunny IS totally and utterly EVIL. He craps out chocolate eggs. – Think about that. -He ‘C-R-A-P-S’ out chocolate eggs! It’s pure evil, they’re chocolate, so you gotta eat’em, but he C-R-A-P-S them out! And on top of all that, he’s cute and fluffy; how can you hate a guy like that? EVIL. ….evil…..
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Swabbies Bucket, thanks for the ass-kicking offer but Jesus is cool. And besides, it gets lonely out here in the sticks, a girls gotta have somebody hold her down once in a while.
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Swabbies – never old – figment of your imagination
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Penne – tell Swabbies he isn’t old. Erm me too!
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A wench’s work is never done! Pay the bills! Load the woodstove! At last, now I can relax for a while. I’m already irritated by someone on another thread saying that he was going to pray for alll of us, or that we would all know one day that Jesus is our true savior or some such crap. I’ve had a long day, and it might be good to spout off about it.
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OOh Penne – it gets lonely out here in the sticks, a girls gotta have somebody hold her down once in a while.
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I hope you’re joking – apart from the hold em down bit.
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-Alchemist, thanks for the info, I hope J takes care of himself, I may take you up on your offer another time though, I’ve only been here about two weeks, after all. You’ve all made me feel quite welcome, and I certainly would like to stay and continue to unload my creative baggage on the lot of you. I still can’t belive so many of you not only understand it, but actually like it too! So weird….but nice for a change;}
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OO what thread saucy? I’m trying to oh sod it lets play
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The Led Zep is on
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Saucy – thanks – meant it
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@ Alchemist Dec 2nd, 2006 at 9:07 pm
It’s not a bloody film. All About Eve are a band, you sods. Well it is a film but I mean the band.
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You’re just going to wind me up about this no matter what I say!
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you bastards (grin)
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I know that! I even opened the link! Then I got lost for awhile.
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‘tell Swabbies he isn’t old. Erm me too!’- Why? Just how old are you guys anyway? ‘I hope you’re joking’ Saddly, no, me-no-jokey. I mean come on, do you really think I’m the kinda gal who would joke about something like that?
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Penne – don’t worry about unloading – I’ve only been here for about the same time. Hell if it’s too much I’ll just ignore it (?)
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The Led Zep is on,
Thats what I’m talking about!
Ramen
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Penne – I’ll never see thirty again but forty is a few years away.
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Alchemist, its the is this a joke or are you retarded thread. I did unleash a little, but I refrained from saying what I really want to say, which is extremely unkind and full of profanity. I’m better than that, usually.
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Nic- “Are you an agnostic, atheist, or theist?†Sometimes I wonder….;) Seriously though, I am a theist, just a very…weird one.
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“The atheists can hide behind subjective interpretations of scientific observations, but they can’t shake the irreducible logic of the anthropological argument. Everyone agrees that killing INNOCENT people is wrong, but there is no naturalistic explanation for this reality.†Nic, come on now. Is there really a need for that? After all, I just pointed out that not everyone WOULD agree to your example. Read the posts before posting!
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“That anger that wells up inside of you is keeping you from actually reading what I’m typing.†Ahh, poetic.
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“we all agree that murdering INNOCENT people is absolutely wrong.â€â€¦..You don’t read the responses, do you? Because Jingles, myself, and TONS of other people have all said that, no, there IS no absolute as shown above.
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“with the exception of the fantastically honest and logical gill,†Oh, shucks. I just calls em’ as I sees em’.
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““I hope rational people will take the time to read some of the dialogue I shared with One Eyed Jack, 13, gill, and Jingles.â€â€ In my completely unbiased opinion, I think most of the people on this site—Penne, for instance—are quite rational. And funny, too. :)
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I really love how Nic’s being confused for everyone’s favorite dokter. He hasn’t condemned anyone to hell yet, so I don’t think he is. (Plus he was on this site waaay before Herr Martin. And Nic, you might wanna check out some of his posts; they’re a prime example of why so many people aren’t so pleased with Christians these days. For starters, the dude’s got an ego the size of the north pole. Also, he’s infuriatingly close-minded.)
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J….ah, I miss him. He brought a touch of sanity into some of these discussions. I’ve sent/received a few emails to/from him, I believe he was simply just too busy to linger here much these days?
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I’m forty something? four I think?
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Saucy – sorry. Have I upset you / cocked up?
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Alchemist-you are NOT old, it’s a well known fact that guys your age are in their prime and at the peek of sexyness.-So there!
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I’m all primed out! Dang!
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Oh my god – just read the posts – that was not me that posted that.
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@ Alchemist, No! None of that was meant toward you! It was someone who was saying that all of need to accept Jesus as our personal savior. I just hate it when that happens!
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Penne – I’m 37 and still thing I’m 17. Thanks by the way.
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Swabbies Bucket, don’t be so silly,look at all the sexy movie star guys out there who just keep getting better with age?(but not harrison ford,he’s all shrivled up for some reason-that Mcbeal bitch sucked the hunk right outta him)
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Saucy – thank FSM for that. Saucy – I think a bit bit of paranoia?
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Penne Dec 2nd, 2006 at 10:03 pm
Swabbies Bucket, don’t be so silly,look at all the sexy movie star guys out there who just keep getting better with age?(but not harrison ford,he’s all shrivled up for some reason-that Mcbeal bitch sucked the hunk right outta him)
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Thanks really, I am getting better looking all the time! LOL
I’m happy! Thats what matters.
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ooh two bits – cool
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@ the real Alchemist, that makes sense. I was confused.
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Saucy – I’m getting bloody confused here.
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Led zep is on. Thank you for what you did for me. Your message was very well received.
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I really do mean it with the other e-mail. Swing on it kiddo -
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You should now how to test for the real Alchemist
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I need to get back to my story. Maybe one of you guys could ask Bobby if he’s OK with me writting such smut on his site for me. I’ve got no answer yet and my typing fingers are getting itchy. I just don’t know if it would be like an infringement or something, and I don’t really feel comfortable about e-mailing just yet.
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@ anyone – I need to go on record saying that I think Keanu Reeves, who is 42, is very attractive to me. But isn’t real attractiveness or sexiness in our personalities? I’ve seen some physically beautiful people with the sexual attraction of a federal tax form. And I’ve seen regular-looking, non-teenage people who simply emanate sexuality without trying. Maybe it’s all chemicals and biological.
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Penne, you’re trying to share a smutty story? What have I missed? I don’t know what the rules are, either. Someone typed about 10,000 YOU FUCKS a while ago, so I can’t imagine anything you’d say would be less appropriate than that. Does it involve noodly appendages?
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It’s mojo baby!
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It involves a great number of noodly appendages,but not anything worse then what I’ve already written. I know what you mean about beautiful people with the sexual attraction of a federal tax form,I’ve dated a few guys like that with perfect faces and bodies and the personalities of tube scoks. Now I like my men rugged, with some character. I’m a sucker for an odd shaped or hooked nose.
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Nic,
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I do not know Hitler’s arguments on the subjects of morality and frankly, it doesn’t matter. You said there is no basis for a naturalist evolution of morality. I provided one. Right or wrong, it is an explanation. It is logical. Evolution of moral tendancies against actions that damage a group’s survival is completely logical. Survival of the group improves the chances of a gene or meme being passed to the next generation. Therefore beneficial traits will prosper (I know this is a rough explanation, but it suffices for this discussion). It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.
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I can only imagine that you either do not understand how evolution works or that you simply reject the idea of gradual changes through natural selection.
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OEJ
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I tried to tell him much the same thing OEJ, it’s pointless, he simply refuses to listen. He is right(in his own mind) and nothing anyone says is going to change it.
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Nic,
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The Dr. Michael Martin that people keep refering to is a young Earth creation “scientist” that claims to work for Ken Ham’s AnswersInGenesis.
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For the record, I don’t believe you are him. Your styles of discussion are much different.
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OEJ
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I think he just comes here thinking no one will be able to answer his questions and then he can feel high and mighty about it. He’s probably got a boss or a wife who makes him feel inferior or something. He seems to have a need to be right all the time.
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He probably fantasizes about shooting his wife in his spare time.
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OK, I’m back again, we back on nic again?
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there ya go
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saucy – do you fancy a transatlantic chat?
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@Alchemist – I am thoroughly confused at this point and technologically challenged besides. I’m also tired and need to collapse into bed. I’ll catch you on the flip side!
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Penne,
I have apologized, retracted my statements, and admitted my potential to be wrong numerous times on this website.
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Gill,
I can’t really say much to your post. First, because you are a theist and I am arguing that the atheistic presuppostions are insufficient. I could try to convince you that Jesus (the actual Jesus, not the traditional portrait of Jesus) is the God of all creation, but I will not force anything across your computer screen. I came to this website originally out of curiosity. I stayed because I saw it as a place to trade insights, learn new ideas, and even to strengthen my faith. I began my posts on this thread because I thought it was a running debate/idea forum on the essence of morality. Second, you claim to be completely at peace with relative morality. Maybe you are. But this means that if your family were murdered you could not logically condemn the murderer. We have laws, and as so many have pointed out those laws would condemn the murderer because murder is not currently considered advantageous for society (Unless you count the radical Muslim desire to eradicate Israel and the West.). But considering the subjective nature of morality that you accept, the murderer is just doing what they feel is right. It’s just their misfortune that they were born in a time and place where murder is considered bad. Right? Please read the comment to One Eyed Jack that follows, as I believe it will more accurately state my position and hopefully even convince you that I have been reading the posts.
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One Eyed Jack,
You wrote, “You (me) said there is no basis for a naturalist evolution of morality.” – Let me clarify. Murray Eden, a statistician at MIT once used high-speed computers to ask a question: Beginning with chaos at any acceptable amount of time up to eight billion years ago, could the present complexity come by chance? The answer was absolutely not. However, that experiment was a long time ago. Many argue that it is out dated. Here’s my perspective: Charles Darwin said he couldn’t fathom the formation of the human eye by natural selection, yet he believed that reason convinced him that it was possible. And I agree. I think that it can be argued very persuasively that natural selection is capable of creating the human eye, and even an extremely complicated system of laws based on morality. I do not think that atheistic evolution is the best explanation for the observable cosmos and all of its particulars, but nonetheless, it is a somewhat viable explanation. Here is my point: Natural selection applied socially can account for our “considering” murder to be wrong; however, it cannot account for it’s actually being inherently wrong.
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Fr. Corpus Callosum,
You wrote, “Imagine God as a parent who says he ‘loves his children unconditionally’. One of his children does something that is absolutely against the rules of the household; something that the parent considers to be an abomination. The parent is sad, because he loves his child, but the infraction must be punished. So he kills the child. He didn’t want to do it, but the child drove him to it by breaking the rules, and breaking the rules must be punished.”
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There are a few realities that I would like to share with you:
1.) It is very possible that God is, as it were, allergic to sin. This is a concept that is hard to grasp. However, the Bible seems to teach this to be true. Sin is more than just disobedience to some arbitrary standard. It is something, which is inherently other than God, who is life, and thus, sin is death. I believe sin literally separated God from all creation. It closed the system. We observe the effects of this separation and call it the second law of thermodynamics. However, God’s death (Jesus on the cross) enables Him to re-enter and be immanent in the cosmos. How that works exactly I do not know.
2.) Hell is extremely relative. That is, each person will experience “hell” differently. Hell is not a place of literal fire. Fire was simply the best thing God could compare it to so that we could reference the absolute terror of the place. Hell is going to be worse than eternal burning. How? I do not know, but it is eternal death, which is eternal separation from God, who is Life.
3.) No one has to go to hell. God made a way for every one to escape death and re-enter life. Sin is someone saying, “Go away God!” Hell is God granting their wish. C.S. Lewis once said, “The doors of hell are locked from the inside.”
4.) God is a gentleman. He did not want robots that were forced to love Him so He created men with freewill. I love my wife. I hope that she never leaves me, but I don’t want to chain her up in our home so that she can’t leave. I want her to love me with an authentic love, and be with me because she desires to do so. It’s the same with God.
Think about this: It grieves God for His creations to perish. However, He was willing to endure that kind of heartache just to enjoy authentic fellowship with people who would allow Him to save them. Imagine a man who knows that in order for him to experience the joys of having children his wife will have to endure horrible pain and they will have to lose many children. Imagine that somehow he knew those children that would be lost, and I mean really knew them intimately. Know this: God loves everyone and desires for everyone to be saved. He was willing to endure the tremendous heartache of losing some of His beloved creations for the joys of having an authentic relationship with the others. God doesn’t want anyone to perish. People choose to go to hell, because they choose to remain separated from God.
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Let me give you a court illustration (It’s a true story.):
A young women was ticketed for speeding. On her day in court she was brought before the judge and asked if she was guilty. She pled guilty. The judge brought down the gavel and fined her $100 or 10 days in jail. Then something amazing happened. The judge got up, took off his robe, walked down around in front, took out his billfold, and paid the fine. What’s the explanation? The young woman was the judge’s daughter. He loved his daughter, but he was a just judge. His daughter had broken the law and no matter how much he loved her he had to punish her crime.
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It’s the same way with God. He is the perfect Judge. He has to punish our sins. The penalty for sin is death. So He came down here to earth and He paid our penalty. He died our death.
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Alchemist,
You wrote, “How do you reconcile the wholesale destruction of human life in the name of God?†– I don’t!
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You wrote, “You have god upon your side. Don’t the Muslims, the Jews, the Zoroastrians. You all believe in the same god!†– No we don’t. Christians and Jews worship the same God; however, the Christians have a more complete revelation of that God. That’s not an egotistical statement. First, note that Christians are not a race of people. The first Christians were Jews and there are still many Jewish Christians a.k.a. Messianic Jews. Secondly, this more complete revelation was first foretold to the Jews (333 prophecies, which Jewish and Christian scholars agree are references to the Messiah; these prophecies were written 500+ years before Jesus was born. Dr. Peter Stoner has shown the fulfillment of these prophecies to be practically impossible statistically (The odds of one man fulfilling just 8 of those 333 are 1 in 10 to the seventeenth power.). The American Scientific Association backed his findings. Jesus fulfilled these prophecies, all 333. As for Muslims, etc. they worship an entirely different God.
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You wrote, “Why do you kill each other?†– Ignorance. Religion is a human construct. The Bible rarely uses the word religion. It defines religion as, “Helping widows and orphans.†The Bible is a guide to relating to God and people. People made religion what it is not God!
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You wrote, “Why must people suffer for your beliefs – those with multiple sclerosis and other illness that could be cured through stem-cell research?†– I should probably let gill, jingles or One Eyed Jack answer this question for you since they are all so skilled in illustrating why the majority has the right to determine what is moral.
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You answered you own question about the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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Earlier some one made a rather extensive list of passages, which “prove†God is evil. If any one wants to choose a couple for me to interpret I will be glad to give it a shot. I invited that person to do so, but they never took me up on the offer.
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I hope you all have a good night.
Peace
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