Please do not take any offensive “hate mail” written by Christians as an example of Christianity. We are not very good Christians; we who use words of hate. You must understand, however, that you have completely pissed us off. This site is just stupid. The concept is stupid. I can give you evidence against evolution if you so desire.
I do sort of agree that ID should not be taught in schools, but neither should evolution. It is wrong that evolution, classified as SCIENTIFIC THEORY, is taught as a fact. Teaching evolution in schools is just as offensive to us as teaching ID in schools is to you. We are all people.
The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else. The same cannot be said for scientists, it appears. Plus, while Christians want to bring wayward people to God for the wayward people’s sake, scientists want to study and elaborate on evolution because they think they can discover something wonderful and get rich off of it. So, there is still a difference between the two sides.
I think this whole fight is futile. It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…
-Yet Another Christian
The other religious people coming on this website (well, the majority of them..) don’t really seem to realise that this website is a JOKE. I don’t go completely against christianity or anything, but I can see the point this website is trying to make.
Not everybody hates christians, stop putting yourself down. It’s the same thing with muslims and other religions. A few extremists go too far with what they think ‘God’ wants them to do and it gives a bad reputation to the rest of the followers.
Just out of interest, tell me some evidence against evolution! (I’m not trying to stir you, I’d just like to hear some evidence from the other side of the argument for once.)
I’m sorry to offend anyone at all (if I have). I’ve tried to be reasonable…
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@you have completely pissed us off
“……It is wrong that evolution, classified as SCIENTIFIC THEORY, is taught as a fact…..”
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So you all keep saying. Yeah how about some objective and balance evidence. Most of the posts I’ve read on this site just scream ignorance of evolution and “Evolutionary Laws” Every post in the same vein as yours has promised to:
“…give you evidence against evolution if you so desire.”
however none of these promises have been keep so far!
RAmen
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Excellent Idea “Yet another christian”, I agree we should abolish science completely from the class rooms. We should also get rid of math and history aswell!!!
Wow that is great!!
You not really bright are you?
Scientists do not make vast sums of money. If one wants to make money one should go into business. Teachers make really pitiful money. Why do they do it? Because teachers love to teach & scientists love to work out the world through science (that is the logical analysis of theory, observation, deduction, testing, and reanalysis). Without science where would you be – hey you probably believe the world is flat!
We don’t hate Christians (my mom is one – bless her heart). We are not hacking into a Christian site and spreading blasphamy! You have come to this site thrown in your unintelligent two cents worth, WHY?
The Roman Catholic Church is the richest “club” on earth. Not any scientist organisation!!!
Contribute something a bit better thought out next time, you mentioned evidence – bring it!
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@RAT
“…We should also get rid of math and history aswell!!!…”
Along with medicine, law (too evidence based too), geography ect ect ect. Can’t get rid of just one area of the sciences. If one goes, they all go. Teach nothing but belief!
“Third World War” anyone? Then the believers in the supernatural beings will be able to declare:
” See! Told you (insert supernatural beings name here) would take revenge”
RAmen
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Please, please, please, please
1. Provide the compelling anti-evolution evidence that you are talking about.
2. Accept the loving embrace of a warm, tomato-ey noodly appendage. For He does not wish his people to be offended.
3. Throw away all your electronic goods. They aren’t based on any sound physical laws and therefore don’t work. Any evidence to the contrary is imagined on your part, or maliciously placed there by some false deity, possibly the much feared Anti-Pasta *repeats 1000 ‘Hail Spaghettis’and flagellates onself with stale tagliatelle*
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Aw, you poor sod, having all those scientists pressing their wares on you like that.
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As I’ve said many times now on these forums – exercise your buyer’s privivlege and DON’T USE THE PRODUCTS! If you don’t want science pressed on you, give up
Your home
Your car
Healthcare
Innoculation
Electricity
Your computer
Those clothes you’re wearing
Your teeth, if you’ve ever had dental treatment
Poor eyesight? Ditch the glasses/contacts/laser surgery
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In short, find yourself a cave, forage for food, and sit around your fire at night telling your kids about the big beardy git in the sky; I think youll find the lifestyle and the beliefs *exactly* complement each other.
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If the above doesn’t seem too appealing, quit whining and catch up with the rest of your species, and stop being so damn lazy; apparently, a lot of humans think it’s perfectly OK to absorb the benefits of science, without having to do it any respect. I say enough; if someone walks into hospital and admits to any religion whilst seeking treatment, they should be shown the damn door.
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Saying Evolution shouldn’t be taught in schools is like saying Newtonian physics shouldn’t be taught in schools because Einstein disproved it.
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I eagerly await the day my 7th grader learns quantum physics.
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NO. I disagree with you guys.
There is a crisis among the scientific community. “Evolution” as a “Theory” is well and truly dead and buried. Admit it. I have spoken with many scientific authorities on this matter who are strictly in favour of my viewpoint. There is now overwhelming microbiological and research supported evidence casting doubt on what you Darwinian evolutionists think. You can keep your dogma and your aggressive silencing of those of us who dissent. The overwhelming evidence is wholly supportive of an Intelligent designer. Period. HAVE YOU NEVER BEEN TO AN ITALIAN RESTAURANT YOU PHILLISTINE! I pity your narrow minded Materialistic viewpoint. It is the height of political incorrectness to express scientific skepticism of neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory, or to voice interest in the theory of intelligent design. But I am prepared to stand up and be counted.
All praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster. THE Creator.
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Evolution is NOT taught as fact! I am currently studying an Evolutionary Genetics module and every lecture frequently features the word “theory”.
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Bekah, the point is the ID/creationist folk don’t understand what “theory” means, they don’t understand the scientific method. That is the point of this website.
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Poor, poor Christianity! I don’t hate Christians, pre se. What I hate is Christians imposing Christianity, or even the idea of a non-denominational Creator, on myself or my children. Keep your beliefs out of my childrens’ science education, and I will keep my religion out of your theology curricula. Psych!
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I have THEORY. My THEORY is this: If I drop a book, it will fall to the ground.
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Let me test this…. yep, it fell to the ground. Great THEORY!
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OK, what will the book do next time I drop it? Will it fall to the ground? Maybe, but I can’t be 100% certain. After all it is only a THEORY.
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I could repeat this experiment for the next 50 years and it would still be a THEORY. Smugly calling something a THEORY like it’s some sort of derogatory statement only proves your own ignorance.
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If you really want to pick on a THEORY that lacks evidence, take an honest look at your God. I doiubt you will, but I can hope.
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OEJ
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“I do sort of agree that ID should not be taught in schools, but neither should evolution. It is wrong that evolution, classified as SCIENTIFIC THEORY, is taught as a fact. Teaching evolution in schools is just as offensive to us as teaching ID in schools is to you.”
Both evolution and the creation story are taught in schools.
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What school is that, Clare? I’m curious.
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OEJ
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Eat me!!!!!11!!1!!!!11one!!1!!1
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I’m interested in reading both sides of the argument. Please provide a website that provides evidence to the contrary, I would also love to see a peer reviewed journal that talks about creationism vs evolution. Perhaps a debate between an evolutionary scientist vs a creationist SCIENTIST (pastors and those paid by christian organisations don’t count, sorry) This is the best video that I ve seen trying to sum up the views of creationism in a concise way.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=usrrj5jWd68
enjoy:)
and please provide some links to scientific journals that believe creationism is truth.
thank you
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Oh that’s rich! Yet another creationist complaining about being ridiculed for obnoxious stupidity, then demonstrating still more stupidity. When will they learn that we know more about the mechanisms behind evolution than we know how gravity works?
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Well, for starters, don’t you think that the possibility of one cell getting together with another cell and another and another and so on to create a functioning being is kind of slim? Especially when two separate masses of cells form fully functioning reproductive systems when they really have no way of communicating and no reasong to reproduce such a large mass of cells? How do these cells know to come together in the right places to create organs such as the heart or even the brain? How can a bunch of cells produce electrical pulses throughout the body to control muscles and create thought? What reason do they have for this? How can they possibly form such an intelligent design, one so intricate and complex that even we can’t possibly hope to know everything about? Ask me questions and I’ll answer them, but first, please answer mine. I think we can have a nice volly going on here.
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“Excellent Idea “Yet another christianâ€, I agree we should abolish science completely from the class rooms. We should also get rid of math and history aswell!!!”
Scientific theory is not fact and should not be taught as such. What I want to see is evolution not being taught as fact. I want to see it being taught, if it as taught at all, as theory.
Teachers are not scientists. Why bring them into this when I said nothing against them at all? It is not up to teachers to write their own textbooks.
Let me set one thing straight. Scientific things such as gravity, electricity, nuclear technology have all been proven. You can show me those right now and I will believe they exist. What you can’t show me is evolution on a fast scale. I want to see it now, if you have it. If you can put a prehistoric worm into a cage and increase the speed of whatever process you believe evolution occurs in and change it into a much more superior being throught natural processes, I will believe that evolution exists. Please understand what I mean when I say evolution is a theory. I mean it is purely theory and nothing more. It is not proven.
“I have THEORY. My THEORY is this: If I drop a book, it will fall to the ground.
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Let me test this…. yep, it fell to the ground. Great THEORY!
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I love how your theory is based on scientifically proven facts. Way to go with the insult, there.
“Smugly calling something a THEORY like it’s some sort of derogatory statement only proves your own ignorance.”
Either that, or it shows that I await full blown evidence that evolution exists.
“If you really want to pick on a THEORY that lacks evidence, take an honest look at your God. I doiubt you will, but I can hope.”
I did that a long time ago and whaddaya know? I’m still Christian.
“Bekah, the point is the ID/creationist folk don’t understand what “theory†means, they don’t understand the scientific method. That is the point of this website.”
I understand scientific method. I also understand that scientific method is a man-made thing. We can’t always trust what we create.
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“We are not hacking into a Christian site and spreading blasphamy! You have come to this site thrown in your unintelligent two cents worth, WHY?”
Almost forgot. I know you’re not hacking into a Christian site. I never said you were. I came to this site and contributed because I feel you want answers. Or maybe just an argument. I know this is supposed to be a joke.
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“If the above doesn’t seem too appealing, quit whining and catch up with the rest of your species, and stop being so damn lazy; apparently, a lot of humans think it’s perfectly OK to absorb the benefits of science, without having to do it any respect. I say enough; if someone walks into hospital and admits to any religion whilst seeking treatment, they should be shown the damn door.”
I respect science. I respect the fact that humans are looking for answers. That’s better than nothing. And yes, if an epidemic were to spread throughout the country, we religious people SHOULD be kicked out of hospitals! After all, we’re not human. We’re just jumbles of text on a screen, or sacks of meat that walk around hitting everybody we know (and don’t know) with Bibles.
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“Both evolution and the creation story are taught in schools.”
I’d like to know, too. That’s pretty rare.
“Poor, poor Christianity! I don’t hate Christians, pre se. What I hate is Christians imposing Christianity, or even the idea of a non-denominational Creator, on myself or my children. Keep your beliefs out of my childrens’ science education, and I will keep my religion out of your theology curricula. Psych!”
I don’t see where my beliefs are being taught in your children’s science classes. If they are, that’s something you should bring up with their teacher(s). If they teach creationism as fact, then they are obviously not fit to teach in a public school. But neither is a teacher who teaches evolution as fact. The same goes with textbooks that present it that way.
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On a note, I DO believe in microevolution, or adaption.
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I can’t believe there are so many people who believe in creationism. It is a silly story… Why do some people believe the misinterperted fiction of pre first century man even comes close to pertaining to us today… and what’s so wrong with evolution? Dosn’t it seem funny people talk about theory as if it is not tested. The fact is a theory needs a great ammount of evidence to back it up to even be called a theory, and the only thing holding evolution back from being called a fact is the ignorant masses of people who believe in stories that are just to stupid for words. Creationism can’t even be called theory, because there is absolutly no evidence, other than the the ranting pontifications of crazy, self-absorbed, “benovolent”, sheep and bad people.
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Creationism = complete and utter lack of factual, observable evidence. Evolution = observable evidence supporting theory. Most of the things taught in science classrooms are not COMPLETE AND FACTUAL but rather have certain facts backing them up. Evolution is not an answer to the origin of life, but rather an answer to the diversity of life currently here. The fact that you keep pushing that evolution should be taken out is retarded at best. Evolution has observable evidence based on a hypothesis and testing. Creationism has a hypothesis, but no means of testing or obtaining data to support this. Therefore evolution is taught, and creationism isn’t. End of story.
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It’s true that many of the people who teach science in our schools lack the experience with science to adequately teach “scientific theory”. It’s also true that many of the textbooks provided to schools contain out-of-date and scientifically unsound principles (some contain errors regarding evolution that were disproven a century ago). Unfortuantely, that problem will only be remedied when we get better funding in schools.
Until then, we’ve got to educate all the people who came out of school that evolution is “just a theory”…but we also need to teach exactly what “just a theory” means.
Actually, gravity is considered by the scientific community to be “just a theory”. So is how electricity works.
A theory isn’t something that’s just thrown out there when someone thinks it’s a great idea. It’s not something that has yet to find any evidence. It’s something that has been tested or studied in one way or another by countless scientists who have all come to the same conclusion.
I used to be a big proponet of ID (heck, let’s just say it: I was a literalist young-earth 7-day creationist, and proud of it at the time). I thought that by reading non-creationist scientific literature, I could poke holes in it very easily based on creationist writings. What I found was that many “creation scientists” were disputing things that had already been disproven by the mainstream scientific community. Many of the things I saw from creationists were based on an incomplete understanding of scientific principles.
I don’t think creationists are stupid — I was quite intelligent as a creationist — but I was misinformed. I didn’t have the whole picture. I recommend to all creationists on the list to start reading non-creationist views on evolution (make sure you read things published by respected mainstream scientists that are CURRENT). Even if it doesn’t change your mind, you’ll have more cannon fodder when dealing with evolution proponents.
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One more comment: as a Christian, I used to go onto non-Christian forums and post a Christian opinion. Now that I’m not, I know better. You would find it very rude if one of the people from this site went into a Christian forum and started talking about how Christians should accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It’s rude, so stop.
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Evolution IS taught as a theory, and damn near everything in science is a theory. Things like gravity, which you said are “scientifically proven facts,” are still considered THEORIES. They just have observable evidence backing them up, just as evolution has observable evidence backing it up.
Show me evidence for creationism that is on the same level as the evidence for evolution, and then I’ll listen. Until then, keep your obnoxious little trap shut.
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“I came to this site and contributed because I feel you want answers.”
Then come back when you actually have some.
RAmen
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@Kamni
Well spoken, intelligent and an example of basic common decency.
RAmen
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“I understand scientific method. I also understand that scientific method is a man-made thing. We can’t always trust what we create.” – Seth
God is also man-made, don’t trust him.
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Whoever Claire was she clearly did not read the post 4 up from hers which clearly states that evolution is not taught as a fact and the course constantly uses the word theory.
Oh, and to all you offended christians your beliefs are taught in schools too (its called religious education or RE for short (just for you uneducated folk out there). However your subject is also taught in churches therefore your subject is taught more than ours so surely it is scientists/ pastafarians who should be offended by the unequal amount of time given to our subjects.
Religion is for Holy Buildings (churches, Mosks etc) and fact/logic is for school
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Maybe the world needs to lighten up a bit, and learn how to have a good time, and execpt that there are some things that we will never be able to explain. Nobody’s right, nobody has any brillant anwser, so have fun and enjoy the sort sweet ride.
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“Plus, while Christians want to bring wayward people to God for the wayward people’s sake, scientists want to study and elaborate on evolution because they think they can discover something wonderful and get rich off of it.”
This is the BIG mistake that keeps the argument going. Scientists only get rich if they find something WRONG with evolution. They do not hand out awards for doing experiments that confirm what we already know. Scientists are out there every day trying to find faults in our body of knowledge. Once I get this concept through to people of faith, they start to see the whole picture.
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why dont you stop being an asshole, shut the hell up, and go do something rather than hate on other people on the internet. its pretty lame
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I agree with Fluffy Bunny
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Seth: The chances are not slim that groups of cells can get together and form functioning beings. There are all sorts of organisms, at all different levels of integration. The simplest multi-cellular organisms are placozoans with only 10 types of cells. Sponges aren’t as highly integrated as we are but are fully working animals. It is the continuity of integration and complexity found in both the fossil record and in living organisms that made the scientist of the 18th Century look for an alternative to the biblical creation story, which couldn’t be made to agree with the evidence.
This site (http://tolweb.org/Animals/2374) is useful as a good overview of the diversity of life and of evolutionary relationships.
We don’t take your answers seriously, because your answers are infantile and insane; Sort of like the ‘answers’ provided by a guy who thinks space aliens are bugging his brain through the telephone wires. It’s kind of cute because it’s so crazy, but no educated person is going to believe it. Learn about the subject before you talk about it and you’ll get a better reception.
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LostWookiee: Nice post, I agree completely.
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Seth—“Scientific things such as gravity, electricity, nuclear technology have all been proven.†WRONG. Gravity has not been 100 percent proven, which is why it’s still considered a theory. Why is this theory more acceptable to you then evolution?
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“I understand scientific method. I also understand that scientific method is a man-made thing. We can’t always trust what we create.â€â€”Soo, what, are we not allowed to trust anything man ever created? Being skeptical is one thing, being blind is another. Like it or not, science is based off the scientific theory. Evolution is based off said theory, so it’s ok to teach in science class. Not that complicated, really.
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“I don’t see where my beliefs are being taught in your children’s science classes.â€â€”it’s called ID.
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“But neither is a teacher who teaches evolution as fact.â€â€”Evolution is not a fact, and no one is teaching it that way (at least no one with any brains). It’s taught as the THEORY of evolution, remember?
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No one ever said YOU had to agree with evolution. You don’t have to accept that the world is round, either. But that’s where the facts are pointing, so…
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“I understand scientific method. I also understand that scientific method is a man-made thing. We can’t always trust what we create.”
This is now my absolutely favoritest quote ever.
There are two things I fail to understand about Christians (who, as far as I know, are the only group clamoring for ID to be taught as science).
Why on earth do you people insist that evolution is a theory of origin? Can you truly be taught nothing without a permission slip from your pastor? You have to have a starting point before you can evolve… comparing creationism and evolution theory is totally farcical…
and
Why on earth do you people get so scared about science in this day and age? Most reasonable people are willing to accept the Christian Testament (and its forefather, the Old Testament) as allegorical… must you insist on taking those essays completely as (pardon me) gospel, insofar as their application to natural science? Why not just accept that certain passages were not completely understood by either the medium through whom His word flowed, or the person later translating the text, and thus their meaning obscured and lost to future generations?
See, that’s one of those little things that generates hate… when you have to defend the indefensible, the best strategy is to viciously attack your opponent in the hopes that he or she will be so cowed (or, more truthfully, disgusted) by the exchange that they cede the victory to you. That’s not the sort of organization to which I want to belong.
To summate…
I just don’t get the absolutely dogged clinging to literalcy in a document that has been tainted by the touch, interpretation, and judicial editing of Man…
“We can’t always trust what we create.”
Best reason for casting a skeptical eye on the New Testament I ever saw. Thank you, Seth.
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Now that I know html code works within the reply block, can’t you give me an edit button?
/sigh
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I don’t hate christians, and I’m sure no one else on this site does either. Most of my friends are christian, or chatholic. I love them to death, because they’ve accepted me the way I am, and don’t do the hate/pity/condem thing to me or anyone else. (They’re also as crazy as me!) What I hate is you guys trying to force your stuff on me or other people and acting as though only you are intelligent and worthy and crap like that. Admittedly, only a fraction are like that, but a fraction is enough.
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WHat the hell, how many times do we have to tell you fucking stupid bastards:-
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“Evolution has more evidence backing it up than the structure of an atom has”
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The evidence of DNA and Fossils is also completely independent, from each other. Just further re-enforcing the evolution, the reaso you Christians have a problem with evolution and not many of the other theories is that it shows your bible to be a complete lie.
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Actually another thing the bible got totally wrong which you seem to forget is the age of the Earth. 6000 years since God created the earth? My fucking gold fish could have made a better estimation.
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“The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else.”
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Oh yeah because Christianity really does not have a huge history (and I am talking about recent History) of trying to force its teaching on others. And Darwin was not threatened and I suppose those who want to build abortion clinics are not fearful of there lives due to Christians. Do you really have a clue about what goes on outside your little Church?
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And I suppose that atheists in the USA Bible belt are telling fibs about the treatment they receive, get a fucking clue!
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“It is written that God’s children will be hated by all,”
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Yeah mate try being an atheist in the so called age of reason!
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Things fall to the ground when dropped (gravity – fact); ice cubes melt in warm water (thermodynamics – fact); humans evolved from apes (evolution – fact). However, because these facts have theories to explain their mechanics, I can come to only one conclusion. His Noodliness – blessed be His sauce.
RAmen.
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What I dont understand is why Christians are trying to make religion into a science.
The two are not comparable.
Science uses the scientific method and logic to believe things. Religion uses faith to believe something.
Trying to use the scientific method on religion, and faith on science does NOT work.
Both sides are at fault.
Also, if you are so concerned about your children’s faith being smashed by evolution, talk to them about it, instead of expecting the school system to do everything for you.
This is coming from a Christian.
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Well, for starters, don’t you think that the possibility of one cell getting together with another cell and another and another and so on to create a functioning being is kind of slim?
over billions of year the possiblitiy is extremly high…so high that it happend
How do these cells know to come together in the right places to create organs such as the heart or even the brain?
they don’t know but random chance mixed with darwinin selection weeds out the ones that come together in ‘unfit’ ways
How can a bunch of cells produce electrical pulses throughout the body to control muscles and create thought?
If you read up on your philosophy of mind you will find that physicalism is by far the prevaling theory of dualism (with a couple of notable exceptions such as David Chalmers). Dualist theory has all but been disproven (it can’t actually be disproven due to the nature of the thoery and the current scientific and cognative limitations). Most people accept that consciousness arises out of brain states such as ‘pyramidal cell activity = pain’ The only thing dualist are still even attempting to cling onto is that yes physoclogical consciousness does indeed come out of the phyiscal/microphysical parts that make us up but what abotu phenomenal consciouness…the so called ‘what it’s like’ aspect of something or ‘Qualia.’ This is the what its like to see red or what its like to feel pain rather then the how do i respond to pain or how do i respond to red.
anyways you sir basically have no idea what you are talking about.
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i ment to say prevaling theory OVER dualism
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Steve: This is a subject I am interested in. I just did a search on physicalism and am saving sites for future reading. I am extremely unhappy with philosophical dualism, but I had been unaware that this type of monism was so well developed. Thanks!!
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I don’t hate christians, i pity them.
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No evolution in science? what’s next no multiplication in math because it offends you. Disproving evolution needs a huge amount of evidence which doesn’t exist, but disproving christianity takes only common sense.
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memo to the user ‘the flying speghetti monster’, please learn to spell my god’s name correctly.
sincerely,
blubbery joe
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What piratey!!??? You mean there’s no invisible guy in the sky who made his son bleed buckets so he wouldn’t be so pissed off at humanity?? Rainbows aren’t a promise that he’s not going to kill everyone again? The world doesn’t have four corners?? Oh NOOOOOO!
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I appear to have stumbled upon a very interesting debate here, very lively. I have to say, that as a non-christian, I find the idea of teaching ID in schools ridiculous and particularly offensive. I would choose not to expose my children to a school that taught this as a SCIENCE. To the people who believe that evolution shouldn’t be taught in science lessons in schools I would say that that is your choice, take them out of science lessons. It is not my problem if you want to stunt your childs learning by denying them a knowledge of science. It is your child’s life you are ruining. And you certainly cannot expect you child to be taught science but not the THEORY of evolution – to exclude this teaching would undermine the rest of the subject. You have to learn the whole lot – it is your choice if you agree with it or not, after all that is the beauty of THEORY, once you have looked at all the evidence for and against you can weigh it up and decide for yourself what you believe.
It astounds me that a lot of christians can’t seem to comprehend the fact that, whilst they fully believe in something that has no actual factual evidence, and is summed up in a book that was compliled a long time ago, the beauty of science is that we are never 100% sure about anything. Science teaches us to constantly question anything and everything. No real scientist would ever be so arrogant to claim any theory was 100% correct, and it is this constant doubt which we use in a constructive way: Science is the constant search for truth.
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I agree, evolution is wrong, all scientific theories are wrong. if you love your god you will declare your hate of all science, burn your car, burn everything eletric and burn all your house. If you do all this your god will be pleased. jump off a cliff he will catch you.
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Kamni – nice!!
Seth, well what can I say that hasn’t been said already? Well when I was in high school many many moons ago, I remembered my biology teacher. He was a Christian Brother (yes, I attended a Christian Brother’s college – hey I was young and nieve). Well as you may know Christian Brothers did have a reputation for doing very bad things to little children – but I never saw or heard of that in my school. Back to the point… My teacher taught me the theory of Evolution (it was a theory then, just like today). There was NO religious Dogma thrown in, just straight science (please look that word up in dictionary). Theory (as explained by many above) is The Most Likely Scientific Explanation for something. This is not just a wild left-field idea, this involves research (look that one up also), testing, observation (ditto), evidence and evaluation. ID seems to LACK ALL of this process, yet still calls itself a what – “SCIENCE”????
Last point, you say you believe in microevolution and adaption. Hmmmm.
I believe that Jesus Christ was half resurrected! His tomb was partly empty. Maybe JC wasn’t the Son of God, but could have been his 2nd nephew!
Still waiting for our promised evidence! Waiting waiting waiting waiting………
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First off I would like to throw out that I am not committed to Intelligent Design nor Evolution. People are overlooking the original posters comment, this person is not in favor of eliminating sciences being taught in school so let us not go to extremes by saying ignorant comments like let’s throw out math and history as well. I want my kids to be able to learn both sides of the coin and make up their own decisions based on open mindedness, so to the point I’m not threatened by the thought that (gasp) somebody would teach my kids creationism, nor am I threatened that (jeepers) someone would tell them about evolution.
For me, there is not enough evidence to support evolution and in fact geneticists have tracked the geneological tree down to one single woman, no monkies or shrews to be found in that genealogical tree. Lucy was 2 foot tall monkey that walked upright and liked climbing trees – this is nothing like any man I’ve ever seen and there’s nothing in between that shows any type of progression and as for cro-magnon men I still see them when ever I visit a gym. Many evolutionists still point to the Piltdown fossils even though it was proven a hoax.
On the flip side, why are Christians so threatened by evolution. The Old-Testament says that God created a man from the earth. Maybe God set forth the mechanizations for evolution. If you believe it as literally 7 days of creation then your a bigger fool then anyone.
My biggest irk, however was reading these rants. If you want to appear to have an intelligent argument at least know what a word means and how to spell it. “benevolent” (not benovolent) means charitable, giving, hardly an insult to Christians. Stop talking trash and give an intelligent argument.
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“It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…”
What about the Jews?
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Gunner
We not against teaching Creationism.
We believe that creationism should be taught in a religious class. And all science (Theory of Evolution included) should be taught in science class.
Simple – keep Religion (based on Faith) and Science (based on observation, evidence, testing and evaluation) seperate.
Religion is rigid while science is evolving (continiously). Science ammends it’s errors when discovered. Religion… well, no need – just need Faith.
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children should not be punished for their parents mistakes/ignorance/etc…
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@Gunner,
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Re: Human evolution, you are simply wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. Or, at least, somewhere around 50 years out of date.
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If you want your kids to learn “both sides” of the argument, then at least do them the courtesy of understanding what you’re putting in front of them: on one hand, one of the most elegant and widely-supported pieces of science in human history; on the other, fundamentalist religious dogma masquerading as science. The Christian creation myth simply *cannot* be reconciled with the observable universe, cosmology, geology, biology, or even common sense. To include ID in science classes is an affront to every serious scientific disipline, and an abuse of the fundamental trust that students place in their educators: that they will be taught matters of *substance*, rooted in *truth*.
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Seth, I am looking for answers, but not from Christians necessarily. I guess the only answer I would like to hear from Christians as a group is “Ok, we won’t try to impose our beliefs onto everyone else in the form of teaching intelligent design in science curricula.” I guess I would also like to know what is up with the pedophile priests? And what about Tammy Faye Baker? Come to think of it, I have a lot of questions, but I don’t really want to know the answer to them. All I want to know is that you’re going to keep your religious teaching where it belongs: in your churches and homes, not in our schools.
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@ Gunner,
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I agree with you with one condition, and that is to make sure that as important as actually teaching the children the subject you actually teach them how each of the “theories” I use that in the looses sense of the word as God and ID is a myth. But back to the point you need to teach them that evolution is supported by scientists in several fields and some of these fields have given independent evidence taht backs each other up, sometimes answers questions the other field of science has found impossible to answer.
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VS the bible,
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If ever I have a child I am going to make sure that he or she is removed form all Religious studies and instead I will pay for them learn philosophy.
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That way my child can still learn about religion, as Philosophy and religion are closely linked. But they learn it from a rational point of view, Philosophers are told to always search for the truth. If my child then chooses religion then so be it.
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Yet Another Christian and Gunner please read this,
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When people talk about the theory of Evolution they are usually confusion two very different things.
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“The theory of Evolution” refers to HOW evolution occurs NOT if it occurs.
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Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a FACT. Since Darwin’s time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth’s long history (Evolution for those more educated amoungst us).
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This is an important distinction, and one that creationists would like to keep obscured.
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Just to bring home my point the only way evolution is false that I can come up with is
1) descarte was correct and we are living in a demons fantasy world (lets hope not or where all fucked)
2) A supreme being truely has nothing better to do with his time than to plant evidence everywhere and personelly tamper with carbon dating equipment (BAD God!)
3) Every single last scientist over the last 100 years has got together to have a laugh (if those bastards don’t let me in on the joke soon I will not be best pleased)
.
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If you say that Evolution is not true then you may as well say that the earth is flat and Dinosaurs never existed, (in fact if you truely believe in ID then you most strongly deny Dinosaurs or any other creatures as they really do bugger up your theory some what).
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If you say the “Theory of evolution” is not a fact then you are correct.
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If you are in the mood to understand further what the ID people are trying to push you can check out this site.
http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/TeachingResources.htm
Just thought some may want to know what the other side of the story is. Its a bit hard to look at because, well, it’s just bad science, and the evidence is basically “well, things are really complicated” but its still fun to read if you’re in the mood to get annoyed even further.
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If I ever have a child, he or she will only be taught to worship His noodleness.
I actually have always wondered how most members of the world’s major religions can reconcile the fact that their counterparts in other religions, who are “completely wrong”, seem to believe as fervently as they do.
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Wow, Pickles, that is a scary site. To someone who doesn’t have a scientific background (therefore most of the general public), those arguments make ID sound completely reasonable. They take all the classic Creationist/ID arguments and package them ready -made for the classroom.
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I’m almost ready to give up. What has science ever given us? Let’s just go back to living in caves and praying to the great sky gods for a good hunt.
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Ignorance is so much easier.
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OEJ
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Sorry just surfed in…
you have completely pissed us off
=== pissing in a river?
Published by henderob October 23rd, 2006 in Hate Mail (and concerned criticism).
Please do not take any offensive “hate mail†written by Christians as an example of Christianity. We are not very good Christians; we who use words of hate.
=== the religion of hate? int’resting… you piss me off
You must understand, however, that you have completely pissed us off. This site is just stupid. The concept is stupid. I can give you evidence against evolution if you so desire.
=== this concept is as your concept ::: shaped by God as his counterpart
I do sort of agree that ID should not be taught in schools, but neither should evolution. It is wrong that evolution, classified as SCIENTIFIC THEORY, is taught as a fact. Teaching evolution in schools is just as offensive to us as teaching ID in schools is to you. We are all people.
=== so you’re against science? why?
The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else. The same cannot be said for scientists, it appears. Plus, while Christians want to bring wayward people to God for the wayward people’s sake, scientists want to study and elaborate on evolution because they think they can discover something wonderful and get rich off of it. So, there is still a difference between the two sides.
=== it’s the opposite way I guess… you got rich with selling bibles and preaching some fake god…
I think this whole fight is futile. It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…
=== wrong! I don’t hate Christians! They’re my neighbours as a Belgian old man, they’re from Ukrain and ortodox believers – well I can ensure you that I’m not against them! It’s a parent (all alone) with 3 kids 2 raise, this looks more christian than all your blablabla…
-Yet Another Christian
-Yet Another FSM
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Well with stellar argument you gave quote “you are wrong, wrong, wrong.” how could I possibly argue with your logic, you got me.
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Good for you Gunner!
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ID’s best arguments–
Well, everything’s so complicated, it CAN’T have happened without Go–erm… some “unidentified” creator.
Evolution is JUST A THEORY! I DON’T KNOW WHAT A THEORY REALLY IS!!!!1eleventyone
It’s not fair to teach evolution, a scientific theory, in science, and teach intelligent design, a religious/philisophical idea in a religion/philosophy class!!
Did I miss any?
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let me tell you, there is alot more evidence proving evolution than the ideas of christianity. the fact that god impregnated a random woman with a man that walked on water and fed one fish to 500 is utterly stupid. the idea that some magical man that dances around in the sky with fairies and angels created the earth is another example of your stupidity.
sincerely,
blubbery joe
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Hi all,
First of all, I’d like to applaud the creators of this site for making a really good joke. It cracked me up and kept me rolling for at least five minutes. Well done guys!!
It’s also great to see what a response it’s got so far, there’s some extremely interesting conversations going on in these posts.
For those of you debating ID vs evolution, I’d like to draw your attention to this website itself as an example. Do you think it just evolved on a computer somewhere and somehow popagated itself onto the internet? Or is it easier to believe that an intelligent designer (or group of them), in this case human beings; got together and actually wrote the code behind this website? Oh and how did it get laid out so neatly and why do the links work? Is this evolution at work? Or is this ID? Oh, i’m sure there were problems along the way, and the creators would have refined their work as they went along and discovered them – that’s what programmers do.
In any case, it’s easier for me to believe that this website was intelligently designed and subsequently programmed and placed on a server connected to the Internet, than that some dumb computer somewhere simply decided to better the internet by eveolving yet another Internet website.
what do you think?
Oh, and for those of you wanting some evidence for ID, take a look at the arguments presented by the scientists on this website.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
And before you write it off, just let me mention that it is a nonprofit organisation, and most of it written by scientists. You can find a list of creation scientists (who support ID) under the “Get Answers” tab on the home page, just click the last link “Creation Scientists”.
Check out their credentials – I did, cos I didn’t believe they were real scientists. I was wrong and I am glad to admit it.
Good luck surfing everybody, hope you find the truth.
theDDR
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To theDDR:
Of course this website didn’t evolve. The internet isn’t naturally occuring. However, everything found in nature is. And it evolved that way. Why is that so hard to comprehend? After billions of years, all these atoms and photos and such got together and created organisms. It’s not so far fetched. It’s the best explanation we have given the nature of everything around us.
And PLEASE don’t bring up AiG. It’s the worst site ever. All their articles on the “scientific evidence” of ID are laughable. The one on the 2nd law of thermodynamics and the “evidence interperation” ones almost make laugh. I say almost because I read them an cried. The Thermo article is just sad… he talks about the sun’s radiation causing disorder and cancer… how about plants? I guess the author never heard of photosynthisis… but that’s not a nessecary part of the life of a plant, is it? And don’t get me started on the other article.
Anyway, yeah, they’ve got a list of creation scientists… woo. Check out Project Steve at http://www.natcenscied.org/article.asp?category=18 . It’s a list of scientists all who endorse evolution, who are also all named Steve. I’m sure it out-numbers the AIG list by a lot.
Anyway, I hope you wake up and find the Theory. Scientists don’t claim to hold the truth at all. We can’t even reconcile quantum mechanics and general relativity. But they both work. They’re both THEORIES, but guess what? They’re mutually exclusive. That means theres other stuff out there that we still need to figure out. But they’re the best estimates that we’ve got now. And until something better comes along that we can test, measure, examine, repeat, quantify and understand in terms of natural phenomina, we’ll stick with what we’ve got now. And what we’ve got now helps you in every aspect of your life.
So respect science, and respect the fact that Creationism IS NOT SCIENCE. Evolution is science. We can see it, we can classify it, and we can observe it on a microscopic level, and it happens gradually on a macroscopic level. We won’t be thrown back into the dark ages, and we won’t submit to your preaching and illogical, irrational, supernatural explanations. Deal with it.
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Oh, and for those of you wanting some evidence for ID, take a look at the arguments presented by the scientists on this website. http://www.answersingenesis.org/
Duno! It’s a gunsite. You fool you can’t even defend your own religion without a gun. Pitty you!
S*rry but me as an european i’m not used to gunsites = looks ye are so afraid of truth that you escaped towards guns
What’s next? Blowing up the USAmilitary in some building in yer country? Becoming extremeright?
What’s next2? Becoming a worshipping christian named Osama Bin Laden?
Sad, sad, sad…
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1. Go and learn what the formal definition of a scientific theory is (as opposed to a hypothesis, and a law) before deriding evolution as “only” a theory, being promulgated as a “fact”. It will help you avoid embarrassing yourself again in the future. When trying to articulate an argument, it is helpful to understand the words you are using.
2. If you can provide “evidence against evolution”, I (and every biologist on the planet) would love to hear it. No, I’m not being sarcastic. If you (or anyone else) can provide any evidence that would disprove, or is in unreconcilable disagreement with, evolution by natural selection, we truly, honestly, really would be ecstatic to see it. It would dictate a complete re-think of how our world works, and would be embraced as a stepping stone to further research and discovery. Unfortunately, all such claims made have thus far failed to live up to the moniker of “evidence”.
3. Evolution is taught in schools because it is the single best explanation for the natural world that we are a part of, supported by enormous amounts of independently convergent evidence.
4. Scientists do not aim to “get rich” from teaching evolution or “converting” people to believe in it. Most of us would simply like for other people to engage a few neurons and think for themselves, before blindly accepting evidence-free religious dogma as “fact”. The same cannot be said for numerous (particularly Christian) churches, and especially evangelists, some of which are exceptionally adept at parting willing congregations from their money.
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I suffer from a wheat allergy. Have I been forsaken, or is this just another test of my faith?
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shaken_but_not_stirred – Gnocci is the go for you (pasta made from potatoes)
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Dear Pissed off Christian,
You must pray, and asked to be filled with His Noodly Appendage – when you have the taste of meatballs in your mouth, you will know truth…
May you noodle always be wet…
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Dear Pissed off Christian,
You must pray, and asked to be filled with His Noodly Appendage – when you have the taste of meatballs in your mouth, you will know truth…
May your noodle always be wet…
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I come back to read this site once in a month or so, that is when I get bored. I realized that many people who access this site do not know an important scientific principle. It is called Occam’s razor, and EVERY scientific theory must pass the test of Occam’s razor to become an accepted theory. The reason is obvious. There can be hundreds of theories that can account for a given observation. Occam’s razor tells us that we should accept ONLY the simplest one.
It is possible to place the earth at the center of the universe and at the same time describe the movement of planets, stars, galaxies and all other entities, if one is permitted to use infinite number of equations! The simple fact is that we cannot afford to teach every one of such alternative theories in schools, especially with limited resources the schools are given.
Back to evolution, evolution is the simplest theory we have today in the field in question. One thing certain at this point about ID is that there is NO chance that ID will make the theory any simpler. So, it should be thrown away, period.
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Seth said:
Seth
Oct 23rd, 2006 at 8:37 am
Let me set one thing straight. Scientific things such as gravity, electricity, nuclear technology have all been proven. You can show me those right now and I will believe they exist.
To Seth: You need proof to believe? Damn, Seth, you’re fucking me up here, man. I thought you guys worked on the faith model. You crazy-ass christians would make more sense if you picked a method and stuck to it. I know, I know, don’t mock your faith. I’m sorry, but the problem from my personal perspective is that your faith won’t seem to fuck off and leave my ‘faith-light’ alone. What did John Cleese say in Life of Brian? “How should we fuck off, oh lord?”
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Life of Brian :)
The lyrics at the end of this movie they’re funny… Sung by all those guys on the +:
“Allways look at the bright site of life”
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Idiotic. Why is science considered “proven”? Because the proof, my dear subject, is AN OBJECTIVE ONE! ANYONE can go and repeat the experiments for gravity, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics and heck evolution.
The so-called “proof” for ID is “belief”. Duh go to this little page:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_Thinking
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Give me an experiment to prove this god thing that is not so subjective as to mock the word “experiment” itself then we’ll see. THAT, dear, is called “evidence”, not your subconscious slurs.
Dumpling: err Occam’s razor only applies when both theories describe exactly the same things and both are completely valid in terms of predictive power. I don’t see how ID makes the ‘cut’, per se. It hasn’t even come up with a real prediction at all, so since when was ID a real theory?
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@theDDR
“Check out their credentials – I did, cos I didn’t believe they were real scientists. ”
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Real scientists? Do you mean beacause they have letters to their names. (Are the letters even real?) Have you ever heard the terms “junk science” and “ulterior motive”? I am not sure who your real scientists are, but if they are pushing ID then they have already been dismissed by all credible scientists. All these guys did was pick out a few concepts from the work of others and say they can’y be true coz an intelligent designer (god) did everything. You’ll never see their “science” published in any repected science journals. Well maybe, if any of the journals carry a humour section in back just for a laugh. I don’t think they do though, as they are preoccupied with real reseach and science! These ID junk people are just playing on people like you who have absolutely no idea, as well as no training as to what constitutes reputable science. (i.e. Real. Not pretend. Supported by “real” evidence. Not bullshit made up to impress the ignorant.)
Throw your support and especially your money behind these “real scientists” cos that is all they want from you. No questions asked.
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Oh, you remind me of the “christian” universities that pump out PhDs like good ol’ christian mom and dad without condoms.
Sure you’ve got a doctorate, from the Amish University of Uranus…
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“Plus, while Christians want to bring wayward people to God for the wayward people’s sake, scientists want to study and elaborate on evolution because they think they can discover something wonderful and get rich off of it”
Know any scientists that have made more than a million bucks out of “preaching” evolution? Around the 0 mark. Want to know the number of televangelists that have made more than a million? ’nuff said.
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Anyone want any PhDs? I can krank them out for A$100 a pop in any chosen field you like. How about the new sciencific frontier of Intelligent Design.
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DDr:
The same spurious watchmaker argument eh? You see a website in a sea of non-websites, and assume it was made. Meh, there a good dozen separate arguments that refute the watchmaker, I’ll pick my favourite.
The website was most certainly made out of known components (i.e. a server and a guy with no job :p). What constituents was the universe made out of, then? Why must they need creating? To compare “construction” and “creation” is bollocks.
I’ve never seen anything appear out of thin air, (an increase in mass without a loss in mass or energy, technically); i.e. I have never observed this fabled “creation” process which you are so anxious to compare construction to. Until observed, I can only assume any and all such processes are utterly irrelevant.
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@Obscurans
Oct 24th, 2006 at 12:16 am
Idiotic. Why is science considered “proven�
=Because it’s based on evidence
Because the proof, my dear subject, is AN OBJECTIVE ONE!
=Yeah you’re objective… I guess that could be a science issue
ANYONE can go and repeat the experiments for gravity, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics and heck evolution.
The so-called “proof†for ID is “beliefâ€. Duh go to this little page:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_Thinking
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Give me an experiment to prove this god thing that is not so subjective as to mock the word “experiment†itself then we’ll see. THAT, dear, is called “evidenceâ€, not your subconscious slurs.
=well well if everyone can do those experiments why don’t you do them? maybe you can proove something (unless you have a reptilebrain)
Dumpling: err Occam’s razor only applies when both theories describe exactly the same things and both are completely valid in terms of predictive power. I don’t see how ID makes the ‘cut’, per se. It hasn’t even come up with a real prediction at all, so since when was ID a real theory?
= the Occam’s razor is the philosophical theory ’bout excluding all that’s worthless (like religions)
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Give me a real experiment for ID and I’d do it. But can you?
Occam’s razor doesn’t have to work. 1+2*5-7+1 = 2+2*5-7
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@obscurans
indeed I can
it’s 1 + 2 * 5 – 7 + 1 * phi
you did forgot phi!
without phi you can’t proof nothink of yer religions!
sayonara
head
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@Obscurans, theoretically, ID is just as accurate at predicting events as evolution is, because on a fundamental level, it does not deny the occurrence of evolution, merely that there is a guiding force (other than probability) behind it.
It predicts the same thing, it just throws in another variable, and there is no evidence around that can disprove it. Sad fact, but true, and it won’t stop me regarding ID as a sick joke.
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yeah,
long live the queen, and how is thias not a sick joke???????
even my website that is not working is not this stupid
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Chap…. how old are you
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hi everyone, i totally agree with lost wookie, long live the queen and how do i make a website??
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The Aussie-
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Be that as it may the Evolution itself still proves the bible and other holy books mislead or openly lied about how man come about.
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And if it can lie about something that big then why can’t it lie about the existance of God.
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We many not be able to disprove Gods existance for obvious reasons, like they can’t disprove the existance of the FSM but we can pick holes in the holy books that discredits them enough for people to at least start to question. And you will usually find once they start to question such beliefs it is enough, as questioning goes against Faith. And thats the best we ca do to bring down the Myth.
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‘Thias’ was one of the early prophets of the Spaghetti Monster. He is far from a sick joke. He met his end hideously scalded in a vat of molten tomato sauce. I have never resorted to the ridiculing of the heinous deaths purported in the Bible or other horror novels. Please have a respect for OUR mythical figures.
Oh. And the queen is dead, murdered by some real arseholes.
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Oh, don’t get me wrong, God a la bible is easily disprovable if the text in question is taken literally, and I heartily support any effort to deconstruct it (with LOGIC, let’s not drop to their level).
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What I am trying to say however, is that ID relies on the mechanism of the opposing theory (evo.) PLUS a matter of the mind (belief in untestable being; repeating countless earlier posts, check Hume’s Dictum).
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Just for the record, I am a devoted atheist (unless we are regarding the FSM of course :p).
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Hey guys,
Wat do you think of chaps run off posts:
Chap Oct 24th, 2006 at 5:59 am
Yeah, if you eat spaghetti, what happens????
you are all atheist demons. die.
all of amen.com has responded here. :)
LONG LIVE THE QUEEN!
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39 Chap Oct 24th, 2006 at 5:59 am
Yeah, if you eat spaghetti, what happens????
you are all atheist demons. die.
LONG LIVE THE QUEEN!
.
Chap Oct 24th, 2006 at 6:04 am
yeah,
long live the queen, and how is thias not a sick joke???????
even my website that is not working is not this stupid
.
Chap Oct 24th, 2006 at 6:17 am
hi everyone, i totally agree with lost wookie, long live the queen and how do i make a website??
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Do we have to be honest? The reason i ask; it wouldn’t be a polite opinion.
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HEY chap, your website is working fine. Just been there. Maybe you just forgot your own address.
Never mind here it is:
http://www.familychristian.com/
Does your mummy know what you are doing?
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The Aussie – Consider the following possibilities
1. Evolution
2. Evolution plus some guiding force ( be it FSM, God, the Great Green Arkleseizure…etc.. ) (2)
3. Evolution plus some inert secondary universe entirely filled with putty (or jellybeans or slag if you prefer ) but beyond the realm of perception that is somehow linked to the process.
Occum’s Razor says the additional bits in examples 2 and 3 add nothing to the theory; are not essential to it and the theory suffers not one bit for having them removed. i.e. they are unnecessary. Failure to apply this can lead to all sorts of ‘crazy’ stuff that it’s not possible to entirely disprove getting tacked on to a theory. You can see why it helps I am sure.
Cut the crap away. Keep the sweet, sweet, bolognese of life.
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Click on his post Aussie. I’m off to amen.com
RAmen
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Don, exactly what I have said on another thread.
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Jesus doesn’t believe in Occam’s Razor… he had a beard, remember?
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I’ll see your logic and raise you one hollow pink unicorn!
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OEJ
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There’s nowhere to say anything at that stupid site.
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1-877-4-GOSPEL… The gospel music channel… SCARY.
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Then there is the multitude of other crap on sale.
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That is rather sad, that they are so goddamn materialistic.
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Hmmmmmmmmm. Stakes a little high.
Tempted to raise you a virgin born flying skag hog……..but I shall fold like a winded IDist.
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I would first like to censure all of those writers who though are intelligent enough to understand how evolution works are not intelligent enough to know that science which is the essentially the systematic study of the PHYSICAL can only make predictions about the physical. Science does not make any religous predictions the same way that religion cannot make any scientific predictions. i.e. Neither the Bible nor the Quran nor the Vedas can say anything about the scientific reality of evolution or any other scientific theory. Similarly science has no business saying whether god does or does not exist. Whether or not you believe in god and whether or not you think that you belief stems from science keep that out of this debate.
Secondly, while in tha american vernacular, theory just means hunch or speculation, in scientific terms theories are what connect facts together in light of experimentation and evidence in order to make predictions. Scientifically speaking, thyeories do nit become facts. The whole point of science is to come up with theories. Every hypothesis has to be tested it mus make claims that can be tested. Hence that is why ID and creationsism is not scientific. Not scientific does not necessarily mean false, just not scientific. That is why ID cannot be taught in a science class.
Thirdly any form of literallism whether or not it is biblical or vedic (my own religion) is bad theology and even worse logic. Any religious text in the end has been written by MEN, and translated repeatedly by MEN. IN the end you only have their own word that they were divinely inspired. While the relion may be based significantly on their word, it is pointless try to look at insignificant details like geneologies and creation myths and then try to say that the bible can only be true if every single word of it is true. One should look beyond all that and see the real truths about love, kindness and forgiveness and the cultivation of virtues to better mankind.
Finally I am a hindu. If I were to suddenly start teaching in a science class that “at the beginning of time there was Lord Vishnu lying on the eternal sea with Sesha and out of His navel sprung a lotus which opened to reveal Brahma who then proceeded to create everything”, then a lot of people would object. Similarly it is very offensive to include in a Science class in a secular society other peoples religious views when they are not your own.
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No but lots of links to other sites with lots of links. No. Forums would have be severely moderated. Must maintain the severe control over the kids. Can’t have them being exposed to anything but our “jeezus”
RAmen
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@Lifeisbalance
If I knew the hindu expression for the projection of good will to another was, I would say it to you. I’ll settle for
RAmen
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CHILDREN THINKING!!! Oh dear lord, we cant have that, no sir-ee.
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In other news; stupoid, crazy, pasta-worshipping pirates gain more evidence in their fight against blind faith.
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Well, said, Lifeisbalance. I fully support keeping ID out of the science classroom.
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However, I am going to take issue with your statement, “Neither the Bible nor the Quran nor the Vedas can say anything about the scientific reality of evolution or any other scientific theory. Similarly science has no business saying whether god does or does not exist.”
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What you are describing is what Stephen Jay Gould called NOMA (nonoverlapping magisteria). This only works because there is no scientific evidence for a supreme being. Using NOMA lets religions off the hook. It allows them to escape any demand of proof by simply claiming that religion is a different magisteria and therefore not subject to examination by science. However, if there were scientific evidence you can be certain that religious pundits would embrace it completely and any talk of NOMA would be tossed aside.
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NOMA is an escape clause and nothing more.
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OEJ
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Science isn’t about answers…it’s about questions, the more we learn the more we realize that there is more to learn.
Faith is about accepting something without proof, without question. To question faith is heretical and a crime against god according to most religions, and people are being killed for this crime as I write this right now somewhere in the world.
I haven’t heard anyone being killed for not beliving in evolution.
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Science can never prove the supernatural because all explanations have to be taken from the natural world. So no need to worry.
BTW my sis made pasta the day before yesterday. It was really good!!!
RAmen
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I dont hate christians at all. My family is full of christians. Most of my friends are christians. Of course I do have a problem with your arguement that evolution should not be tought in schools because it offends your christian sensibilities. Schools are meant to teach scientific thought granted I think our schools discourage questioning and use rote learning. Evolution is a theory yes. But it is a close to accepted scientific fact as anything can be. People who stand on the its only a theory thing anoy me. If you understands the scientific method evolotuion will always remain a theory until a time machine is invented and evolution can be subjected to direct observation. In the time periods we are talking about there are no records of direct scientific observation so it will remain a theory no matter how much evidence is found. Sorry if evolution offends you but it is science and that is what schools are for. Churches, private schools, and at home is where our founding fathers intended relegion faith and spirituality to be tought.
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Guys Remeber that scientifically speaking, facts are entirely different from theories. THeories never become facts. theories explain facts. Please i beg everyone, refer only to scientific versions of the words theory and fact. Don’t fall into the creationist trap of conflating the lay and scientific uses of the words.
May the force be with you
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This is the best video that I ve seen trying to sum up the views of creationism in a concise way.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=usrrj5jWd68
enjoy:)
I love this video. Because it totaly show how and why monkey’s evolved the oposable thumb to eat bananas. And why humans still eat bananas.
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Seth: not yet knowing every single detail about how and why organisms evolved the way they did does not mean that the development of life as we know it was caused by sky magic. Just an FYI.
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I personally don’t care what other religions think, i think any and all religions are stupid and pointless, but i do in fact follow Pastafarianism because its a lot for fun than agnosticism or atheism! besides, its just as valid as any other religion, you cant disprove that god, if he does exist, isn’t a flying spaghetti monster, so i don’t see why everyone is so upset, if we want to believe god is a spaghetti monster then let us and shut the hell up! you follow your “image” of god, and we’ll follow ours!
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I’m still waiting for the aforementioned promised overwhelming evidence that intelligent design is more likely than evolution.
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Well I think christianity is as much of a load of bollox as the flying spaghetti monster. That’s the whole point of it.
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by the way will FSM protect me from the invisible pink unicorn?
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May I suggest that some of the Christians offended by this site pick up a copy of Sam Harris’ “An Open Letter to a Christian Nation” at their local library or bookstore? I think confronting the enemy with reason and he critical thinking ability that God gave us (or not) might be a worthwhile excercise for many of these folks. As one of my professors once said, “Reporting the state of one’s glands does not an argument make.” Amen to that and their are ample responses on this board among the offended that are perfect examples of this very human, if flawed, tendency.
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@chap
nikkiee
Oct 24th, 2006 at 6:29 am
HEY chap, your website is working fine. Just been there. Maybe you just forgot your own address.
Never mind here it is:
http://www.familychristian.com/
= int’resting site it is …. I’m looking 4 AC/DC ‘I’m on a highway 2 hell’… Are you sure I can find it at your site …? Btw those guys from AC/DC did make some variations on their number … ‘I’m a a highway 2 FSM’ and ‘I’m o a highway 2 familychristian’
Does your mummy know what you are doing?
= My advice: don’t let your mummy read this … otherwise se would buy AC/DC ‘I’m on a highway to hell’ and that would be a problem for you no?
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“Teaching evolution in schools is just as offensive to us as teaching ID in schools is to you. ”
Well, YAC, I’m sorry you see it that way. If you’d said, “The teaching of evolution in churches is just as offensive to us as teaching ID in schools is to you,†then I could understand your outrage. I’m not sure I like the idea of rouge scientists worming their way into the leadership of a church for the sole purpose of forcing Sunday school teachers to cover evolution. Okay, that’s a lie. I find it really, really funny. The scientists could teach “reducible complexity” and the idea that it’s not okay to give up trying to understand a process because it’s difficult and will require further study. They could teach kids that when someone says something they think is untrue, they should do some research before they spout off, or their peers will not take them seriously. The scientists could emphasize that a person who teaches intellectual laziness in the classroom is not doing so to improve the quality of anyone’s education. Maybe they could call this IR. Intelligent religion.
By the way, I like the notion that scientists study evolution in order to get rich. They must work at the same imaginary institution as the climatologists who spread the myth of global warming in order to get rich.
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The whole “theory” thing to try to show that evolution is not proven is another example of the fundamentalist’s ignorance of science. Theories are accepted, while it is ‘Hypotheses’ that are not. However, these folks think that a theory is just a hypothesis.
The ID people are enthralled with the ‘magical’ part of religion, and seem to often ignore the moral part about loving others and treating others well and fairly. To them ‘religion’ is a way to invade (cf. Crusades) It seems that manhy major religions share values on love and harmony and morals. What they differ on is the ‘magical’ stuff. People dying and being reborn, or receiving the word of God or hearing or seeing things from burning bushes and the like. If people could focus on the commonalities between religions, rahter than differences in the ‘magical’ parts, things would be mnuch bettter. Catholics and Protestants and Mormons or Shi’ia and Sunni Muslims would seem to have vast areas of commonality they could explore and share, but they do not. Why? As for ages, chrurches are run by men – Men who are intent on maintaining or increasing their power and material rewards htrough manipulating masses and telling them what to believe. Religion? Not good – Spiriuality? Good.
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^ Well said. It would be interesting to see a direct comparison of moral/ethical codes and the magical aspects of current and past major religions. One thing that would also show up clearly is that more or less blind obedience and loyalty are among the most highly valued and most severly punished.
My take on all this, organized religion is a type of shadow government that is competing with secular governments, and in some cases, such as in Kansas, winning.
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TELEPHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF of the existence of His Noodly Goodness can be seen at:
Photo of FSM
Spread the word like garlic butter on sourdough toast!
Yaaargh and RAmen!
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Pickles – great video. But did this guy ever stop to think that the shape of the banana may have been designed for our evolutionary ancestors, the primates?
Such self-serving rationalizations. Flat earth, geocentric universe, dominion of all creatures, all just ways of saying that the whole universie was made just for us people. Most three year olds think this way, but apparently not all of them grow out of it.
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this monster must die. all wanting this edible god served on a plate e-mail me a @
nowickef@cbchs.org long live the queen
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there is one reason for this shit. THESE PEOPLE HAVE SMOKED TOO MUCH POT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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piss off Chap.
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I guess that people who waste their time writing letters to “unintelligent” sites such as these, fall into the same category of non-thinking bigots who claim we are wrong based on “faith”.
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You cannot prove or disprove God, this is fact, scientists around the world will admit it. But it is likely that God is as improbable as Thor, Zeus, Vishnu Ganesh or Shiva, Ra, or Baal. You are all likely Athiests of these gods, so to quote Richard Dawkins “Some of us just go one god further”.
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I esspecially liked THIS quote from this writer “Everybody hates Christians…”
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I have a classification for people like this “Idiocus Imbicis”.
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But all jokes aside, if “everybody hates christians” (I won’t give you the satisfaction of capitilization of the word christian) why is 2 billion people of this planet christian? Do you know why people hate christians? I call it, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Westboro Baptist Church, politicians who shove their religious agenda into our throats, and fundamentalists who truly believe America will be come a christian republic.
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And yes I would also like to see your “proof” of evolution being false, because after all the whole point of a theory is that the theory may be disproved.
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Thank You,
~Allen
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i thought God’s people were Jews
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@Neurophobic
i thought God’s people were Jews – you’re pointing at the christian dude Jezus I guess
me thinks God’s people were Pastafarians – made by the FSM himself after his image: creators and artists
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Hey Head,
Don’t forget “It’s a long way to the shop if you want a pasta bowl!”
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when i was in school we learned that scientific theory was called just that, not scientific fact. if thats what it is called where other people are going to school, then Oklahoma is not as backwards as i thought. ID has no place in a school, evolution does from the idea that it comes from studying changes over millions of years. FSM does because pirates and migets are cool. fact of the matter is that we all just need a stripper factory and a beer volcano. I lost a good friend of mine to the hard core militant christians about 3 months ago. you people are fuckin nuts.
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Chap,
Shouldn’t you be getting dressed for alterboy training?
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This guy really didn’t do the christians who “everybody hates” any favours did he?
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Chap STFU and stop posting on this website, write hate-mail so I have something to post about.
FSM pwns
(and in Klingon) jlMuS Chap!
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Allen,
I don’t think 2 billion Christians is entirely accurate. Once someone is Christianed then the Catholic church considers them to be forever a part of the Church. One can never leave (kinda like the Mafia – so I technically am a Catholic, I am considered a bad one cause I worship false idols).
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage.
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To Yet Another Christian,
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Sorry to repeat myself for anyone who has already read this but I believe that it is important.
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Evolution is both a FACT and a THEORY, it has two distinct parts.
Evolution FACT.
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It is a FACT that modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms and modern species are continuing to change over time. This is scietific fact, no question!
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The Theory of Evolution
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This refers to how evolution takes place, Darwinism is the only real contender for this title but time will tell.
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Please stop confusing the two, Evolution should be a huge part of schooling in all schools. If you think that children after hearing the facts of evolution will not as how this happens then you either have thick children or have not had any contact with them, and so the theory of evolution must also be a part of schooling.
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You Christians can continue to put your head in the sand over evolution but you are only hurting your own children.
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But if you want to bugger up your own childs education then so be it, just means that the children of Atheists will have a huge advantage in science.
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RAT
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Statistically speaking, the amount of christians in the world today is, 2.1 billion adherents worldwide, making up about 30% of the religious populace as a whole.
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In 2001 christians made up about 72% (41,014,811) of the National population as a whole, non-religious was second in line with about 15.1% (8,596,488).
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I am sad to say that FSM adherents did not make the list.
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Hope I cleared up some of that.
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Thank you,
~Allen
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I am sorry the statistics posted above do not represent America, rather the UK.
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Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study, described below, indicate that:
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76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian.
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14.1% do not follow any organized religion.
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Thank you,
~Allen
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Allen,
Ok, thats cool. I thought your stats were from the Church, not the State. Do you know the stats is OZ?
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“It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…”
Everybody also apparently hates
Humanists, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witness’s etc. Does this mean that everybody who is hated is going to heaven?
Does this mean that because Everybody Loves Raymond he is going to hell?
Quit your pathetic whine. If you read the Bible you’d know that Jesus told you to go practice your faith in private (sermon on the mount) and that only that liar Paul corrupted you to evangelism. Pay attention to your savior, have no children (for the end is near and having children is a sinful thing to inflict such suffering on a child) and go pray in private. In fact go wait for the return in a desert somewhere.
Why are you worried about what is being taught in schools anyway? You’re involving yourself in politics which is a sin as well for you are not surrendering to God but instead abasing yourselves before mammon and caeser. Unplug your computer, sell it, quit sending your kids to school and go pray some more. Otherwise you are going to hell.
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This is a response to an old comment made by Pickles somewhere at the top of the thread. Here’s the quote:
“This is the best video that I ve seen trying to sum up the views of creationism in a concise way.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=usrrj5jWd68
enjoy:)”
The guy in the video is sooooo amazingly correct! God must exist because bananas fit in a human hand rather well…
Except in reality, opposable thumbs are just a rather “handy” evolutionary trait. Bananas happen to be friuts that fit in the human hand. The same logic would disprove God by saying that watermelons do not fit easily in the human hand so God did not make it and doesn’t exist. Either that or watermelons are evil.
I will also point out, using said video logic again, that there is another interesting object in the world that shares many mentioned traits with the banana. We call this an erected phallus, or penis. It fits right in the human hand, comes to a point at the end for easy insertion into the mouth, and in some cases even has the same curve of a banana. God’s looking a little better to some now that he is a proud supporter of wanking and BJs.
Let’s hope creationist have something a little better than the “Oh Lord we thank thee for thy banana ridges, may we peel them with ease.”
-RAmen
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I was just looking through a few websites and found the below, I think all good atheists should at least consider the following.
* unsettle the faith of anyone you can.
* foster reason, critical thinking and self-esteem in children.
* promote the taxation of churches.
* promote feminism and access to abortion and contraception.
* promote separation of church and state.
* fight creationism and coercive religion in public life.
* promote human rights for all.
* eliminate blasphemy from the criminal code.
* avoid charities that waste money on religious indoctrination.
* study real biblical criticism and actual ancient history.
* study clear thinking.
* Read books by Richard Dawkins, Stephen Jay Gould,
Marvin Harris, Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Robert
Ingersoll, and many more.
* Subscribe to Freethought Today, Skeptical Inquirer,
Free Inquiry, Humanist in Canada, The Humanist, and
many more, (see Atheism resources FAQ).
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I’m a Christian, and I’m ordained. I enjoy what you are doing here. I believe God has a sense of humor. some people just don’t have a clue though. I enjoy stopping here sometimes:)
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–Everybody also apparently hates
Humanists, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witness’s etc. Does this mean that everybody who is hated is going to heaven?–
–Does this mean that because Everybody Loves Raymond he is going to hell?–
Hey thick limey! This may be the best logic observation I have ever come across. I wish I could think like you do. I tried, but my head started to hurt and I smelled smo…smo…smo…ah fuckit- dark, chokey clouds.–
–” I love christians ” says the lion.
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Blasphemy is not possible. Why would God if almighty care about a joke by some insect being. And if God is so powerful, why would God need defending of God’s position. Some people have the effrontery to claim that they know what God wants and that they are on God’s side. Very funny!
Jihadists of all stripes loosen up. If your God is petulant, humorless and petty and anthropomorphic in the worst possible ways by assuming the persona of contemptible and dictatorial persons, keep him. Stop preaching to me.
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Chunkylimey (and anyone else),
A few points for you to consider:
(to be taken with a pinch of salt and a shot of tequila…)
1) (And, undoubtedly, most controversial) People aren’t allowed to hate muslims. You’re allowed to hate christians, mormons, jehovah’s witnessess et al (even hindus, sikhs and buddhists, so long as you can prove you’re not being racist), but not muslims. Something to do with holy war or whatnot, and if it’s not holy war, it’s because you’re stereotyping muslims as the kind of people who would go to holy war, and that’s bad too.***
The only other people-group that get so much protection are the Jews, and that’s only because people figure non-jews have given them enough flack over the past 150 years…
2) Not if God loves Raymond too…
3) Not deserts… you need to find a good solid mountain. *Looks for flights to “Mount Zion”*
(now to the serious points)
4) Jesus never said anything about practising your faith in private, more along the lines of boasting about how godly you are. He was/is against people shouting their “Oh God, I’m so great” prayers and making people around them feel inadequate. Jesus throwing tables across the temple and screaming at the eejots to go swindle someone else, that’s hardly practising your faith in private now, is it?
5) Don’t know why you’re blaming Paul for evangelists. It was Jesus who said the whole “Go out and make disciples of all the peeps in the world…” speech. He also sent out the first door-to-door evangelism group.
6) Can you not surrender yourself to God while involved in politics? Ok, I’ll grant you it’s fairly unusual… God says nothing about separating faith and the society – God even had a go at setting up his own state politics system (Israel). That failed cos the head ponchos forgot to surrender themselves to God…
7) (well, I can’t very well have 6 points now, can I?) Some people have a really screwed up view of Christ and Christians and Christianity and Christmas and the like. And, to be fair, from outside the system (and sometimes even from inside the system) Christianity can _seem_ like a weird religion full of weird people that are either obsessed by numbers, condemning everyone, hugging everyone, predicting impending doom or just falling to the floor shaking a bit.
But.
Jesus has a lot of cool stuff to say. Read a gospel. Bombard a Christian with questions. Don’t throw the whole thing out just because some people screw up the PR. Christianity should not be a religion or a set of traditions, but a shared passion for the true God. You just have to find Him first.
Right. That’s enough seriousness for one night. I’m off to bathe in a sea of pickled mushrooms, and watch the hippos fly across the midday sky.
*** (apologies if this causes offence to any muslims reading this. These views, as well as any others in this post, are not the views of his noodlyness or any of his minions, followers or attachés, nor are they the pope’s, nor are they the views of anyone in government or politics or America, or even anyone who’s been dead for at least 500 years…)
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One nation, under God….
Does that imply that God is having relations with America?
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i think this is absolutely hilarious that so many people get so caught up in this like what they say is going to change the way things really are honestly think for a moment that undisputable evidence is brought forward that all your beliefs are wrong… cant do it? well maybe its because your stubborn and have blinded yourself from open thought. i mean i can see how the ignorant find some comfort in a jolly guy named (w/e for a non specific religious standpoint) but seriously now if your faith was proven wrong like god himself came down and said well this is wrong umm i didnt make these commandments and o yea you misinterpreted the second coming of christ as a person where it really is just discovering everything possible scientifically and finding truth so all humanity can come together as one… if you got a problem with that i say your blind and flat out stupid… i appologise for my blunt wording but this is really surprising to me that so many people think its noble to have blind faith and shut out everything else to the point that they would miss jesus if he had lunch right next to them… all im saying is openness is a damn good thing. people go to war over faith but never over flexible ideas.
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Undecided–blah, try 1500 years. Or more. Anyways, my actual point: I’ll be the first to agree that Christans CAN get an undeserved rap because not ALL of them are crazy fundis. But. Saying things like “a shared passion for the *true God.*” tend to make people raise their eyebrows a tad. I’m not excusing the steryotype, just pointing out that it’s not entirely unfounded. As for the issue with the Muslims…..eh, chalk it up to politcal correctness, I guess? At least in America, if you go around saying all Muslims are horrible people you’re gonna get flack for it…but I’ve seen people get flac for saying the same things about Christians, so. Frankly, I don’t see what’s wrong with saying that some Muslims are bad people…..some Christians are too, as well as some Jews, some Hindus…some every other religion known to man…
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i think this is absolutely hilarious that so many people get so caught up in this like what they say is going to change the way things really are. honestly think for a moment that undisputable evidence is brought forward that all your beliefs are wrong… cant do it? well maybe its because you’re stubborn and have blinded yourself from open thought. i mean i can see how the ignorant find some comfort in a jolly guy named (w/e for a non specific religious standpoint) but seriously now if your faith was proven wrong like god himself came down and said, ‘well this is wrong umm i didnt make these commandments and o yea you misinterpreted the second coming of christ as a person where it really is just discovering everything possible scientifically and finding truth so all humanity can come together as one’… if you got a problem with that i say your blind and flat out stupid… i appologise for my blunt wording but this is really surprising to me that so many people think its noble to have blind faith and shut out everything else to the point that they would miss jesus if he had lunch right next to them… all im saying is openness is a damn good thing. people go to war over faith but never over flexible ideas.
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Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Please shut up until you know your own Holy Book better.
Jesus DID tell you to keep your faith private. Take JESUS’s advise and go into your closet and stay there. Of course Jesus DID contradict himself but that is hardly suprising for a poorly edited book like the Bible. The proof reader and the editor must have been morons.
I have read the Gospels by the way which is why I’m not a Christian because I can tell you just how full of crap they are.
if you are struggling to see it more clearly here’s a handy tool for you
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm
Now when you truly see the light, put on your pirate costume and come worship the true lord his great noodly masterfulness.
PS Don’t try and pick a fight with an Atheist who has a degree in Theology, I know every stupid part of your dumb Christian faith better than 99% of the poor delusionals who follow the moronic faith.
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just making a joke on what chunkylimey said…. so you saying christians need to come out of the closet? lol
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I honestly do not understand why people hold onto the creation myth so dearly. Do you not realize that the literal meanings in the Bible were written by people who believed the Earth was flat and rarely lived past 30? I’d be pretty short-sighted too if I could see both my own demise and (seemingly) the end of the world. Much like the idea of the stork, creationism is a way to placate minds unable to grasp larger, more nuanced truths.
And if creation were true, doesn’t it seem funny that all this fuss would go into the equivalent of less than a tick’s bite mark on the body of the entire universe? Oh wait, I guess space exploration and astrophysics is more heresy brought on by the evil “scientists.” Since the Earth is the center of everything, I suppose the universe is nothing more than a fancy blanket this all powerful creator placed over our heads.
Under which you will NEVER get laid.
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Read David Humes Dialogues concerning natural religion. mind you he wrote this book about a hundred years before Darwin. Many people consider Hume to really set the stage for modern athiesm (spaghettimonsterism) and to put the nails in william paileys coffin.
Particularly the part that says even if one could deduce that there is a creator (which is very very doubtful) then what kind of creator was it? In other words, even if evolution is wrong (which most evidence suggests it is not) and we need a designer to account for the world, then the creator could be anything. We can not go from, we need a creator to explain the world to- oh look, the bible is true praise jesus. Perhaps the creator is imperfect, polytheistic, a woman, evil, or even non eternal.
Furthermore, when one looks at the world what type of things do we see? I do not see the 3o god working on things. I see matter interacting with matter and certain physical laws. This is what Hume thought and therefore Hume concluded that us and the world came into existence from, “animal vegetation” (I may have screwed up the exact quote). What he means by this is that we do not see the finger of god moving and creating things. Rather we see things developing like vegetables. Things just function according to their innate states- like a vegetable developes from innate powers or states. The universe acts and reacts according to fundamental laws. We see no god. Therefore, the universe must have been created by fundamental laws (that is all we see damn it!) Even if evolution proves false, we still dont see god. There may be a different mechanism unknown to us, and we may or may not discover it (adding a bit to Hume here).
Lastly, why is it more probable that an all powerfull being existed for ever with certain powers rather than matter? In other words, if god can exist forever and have all these powers, why cant matter? Furthermore, if design needs a designer then who designed god, and who designed the designer that designed him- ad infinitum. Once again, why is it more plausable that order (design) can only come from a being rather than innate matter? Why doesnt god need a designer but matter does? Seriously, I want someone to give me a good reason why this is the case.
Hume was once asked, how did humans come about if there was no god to bring it about. he replied that matter somehow worked itself out. That is all we see is matter interacting with matter. It is easy to see the forces of nature void of any god like presence. It is not so easy to see the god of the bible.
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Annie,
I think you are mistaken about people in the bible rarely living past 30. Adam lived for 900 years and Noah 700.
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Now for evolution
Im a philosophy student so I do not know that much about evolution. I have read the origin of species and Darwins main argument in favor if evolution comes from micro evolution or selective breeding. He talks a lot about how pigeons can be selectively breed to bring out certain traits and over time a parent species can become quite different than its offspring. Over millions of years the change can become even greater.
Natural selection is the mechanism that changes one species into another. Not every offspring from a given animal can live. There is variation between offspring. Therefore, the offspring that has traits will survive better and pass these traits on to there offspring which will then create more variation. Over millions of years species will change quite drastically.
The fossil record indicates that animals have become more complex over earths history. Many animals have gone extinct due to their in-ability to survive (educate yourself, extinction was a big problem for creationists during Darwin’s day). Furthermore, we now know through DNA that many animals are related and share many physiological structures.
What would prove evolution wrong- if something was irreducibly complex. This means that if there is a biological structure in an organism that can not be built piece by piece and every piece serves a function- then evolution is wrong. This is not the case, dont appeal to Flagellum, it is not irreducibly complex. There are probobly other things but this is what id’s appeal to most and it is simply false. It has been shown that building up to the flagellums tail, every stage in its development serves a purpose. it has been proven in a lab. Read up on this topic for yourself.
Other ids appeal to the fact that pure chance and randomness can not create this complexity. This is false. Evolution is not random and it is not chance, not in every respect. The fact is (once again im a philosophy major) biological orgainisms operate according to strict rules and a strict system. This system is not random, rather this system is set up in such a way as to ensure that species change and keep those changes in a very systematic and rigorous way. It is not chance. This system relys on the fundamental laws of chemistry and physics- which are clearly not random.
Not so fast, read my last post. Why is it more logical that the christian god (lets face it it is just a plausible that the flying spaghetti monster exists- raamen) existed forever and gives structure rather than matter. If matter needs a design then why doesnt god. Yet another way to put it, it is just as reasonable to conclude that god exists forever and gives order to things as it is to conclude that matter exists forever and gives order to things.
What proves god wrong? nothing. However, nothing really proves him right either. Prayers dont work, we dont see him in our daily experience, and we simply have not experienced his existence in any fundamental way. The voices in your head are shared by all, so if the voices in your head is evidence for god then i guess its also evidence for many other gods as well. All we really see and experience is matter interacting with matter.
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Hey rat, dont believe everything you read in the bible. Is living to 700 biologically possible even if there were no disease or pollution and with a perfect diet? come on.
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Euthyphro,
I don’t actually believe that anyone lived to 700 – infact I don’t think anyone actually lived past 30ish! I am a practising Pastafarian!
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I am long winded tonight. Lets face it, Christians do not believe in god and intelligent design due to evidence or logical conclusions. Christians believe in god and ID because they are too afraid to live in a universe in which no all powerful being can enter their very soul and cradle them at night. It is kind of sad if you think about it. They rely on this belief to get them through the day and many of them would crumble without it. I normally would not want to take a world view such as this away from a person. However, when these people start pushing their religious (not rationally based, rather emotively based disquised as rational) agenda onto social policy then it is time to take the babies bottle away!
You see this all the time. Certain Christians will claim that a certain state of affairs should not be. They come to this conclusion from their pathetic notions of sin or blasphemy as it is described in the bible, no matter how rediculus it is. Then they try to spread their views rationally and it simply does not work. Their views are emotive not rational.
For example, they try to say that gay marriage will allow beasteality and the like- which is bull crap. What they really mean is “god said it is a sin”. Since they really believe in this god being, via prayer orgasms, then it must be wrong. They just dont sell it to us as some primitive notion of sin- they make pathetic attempts to rationalize it. The same goes for evolution. Evolution is blashpemic and therefore must be a sin- “lets try to put this in a rational form now so its more marketable.”
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My bad Rat
Raamen
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“It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…”
Jews… Wiccans… Druids… Shamans… Gays… Ethnic Minorities…
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Evolution is still a theory and by its nature can’t be proven because it takes so long. the laws of thermodynamics can’t be proven either, but no one goes around saying they’re not true, and anyone who says they’ve broken one, usually the second law, is quickly proven wrong.
Creationists try to use the second law by saying that evolution implies a build up of complexity, a reduction in entropy, going against the second law, this is only true for a completely closed system, the only completely closed system there is is the universe. Inside said closed system, there can be a reduction in entropy in one subsystem as long as there is a greater increase in entropy in another subsystem giving a nett increase in entropy.
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This bit about people living to 700-900 years old in the Bible.
Consider the following, the people refered to lived as nomads. Nomads seldom (even today) reckon time after the sun.
They use the moon because keeping track of the sun has no meaning unless you stay long enough in one place to observe it.
900/12=75 I consider living for 900 moons to be much more belivable…and at that time 75 years was a VERY long life.
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GEEEEYYAAAAH! I can’t believe I let myself read that…
I’ll try to make this quick and painless:
“I can give you evidence against evolution if you so desire.”
Please do, I am waiting.
“I do sort of agree that ID should not be taught in schools”
Thanks, but… hang on… sort of? You don’t sound like you believe that 100%
“but neither should evolution. It is wrong that evolution, classified as SCIENTIFIC THEORY, is taught as a fact.”
Ah… THERE we go… it was a lead into your real point. Hmm no, where is it stated to be fact? Where can you quote (school curriculum worldwide, that is going to take some ersearching good luck with that) that children are being told that science is FACT?
“Teaching evolution in schools is just as offensive to us as teaching ID in schools is to you. We are all people.”
Aww the shame… here have a hankie. I was given religion at school (I’d rather have not), one religion. Now kids get told about many, (here in Scotland anyway, apparently our Education system is rather good) altogether more fair and open minded (unlike you), why should FSM not get a mention?
“The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else.”
OK so why are you here?
“The same cannot be said for scientists, it appears.”
I think you will find scientist DO NOT GO ROUND KNOCKING ON PEOPLE’S DOORS! They preset their findings in papers and books for people who chose to read them.
“Plus, while Christians want to bring wayward people to God for the wayward people’s sake, scientists want to study and elaborate on evolution because they think they can discover something wonderful and get rich off of it.”
OK my brain starts to beat my eyeballs here… You PERCEIVE yourself up on this lofty high ground bringing people to god for their sake. WHO ARE YOU to decide what is good for people? Meet me face to face and see what happend when you tell me what is good for me (hint: it involves me laughing and then going for a beer, beer must be good for me or god wouldn’t have created it right? Jesus liked the odd wine after all)
Next sudy and elabourate – can the same be said for the bible? how much elabouration has been done on this?
Discover something wonderful. Yes they regularly do. It’s called knowledge, try it some time. Get rich off it? Jeez let’s see, hmm sister and wife both have PhDs are they rich? Hmmm nope.
“So, there is still a difference between the two sides.”
Still? There always will be. You make “sides” go ahead, I’ll sit here and watch.
“We are all people.”
But not all on the same side by your own admission…
“I think this whole fight is futile.”
Thanks for this. Your opinion is duly noted and then thoroughly mocked ridiculed and spat upon. I suppose if someone said “Hey moses, I think this fight is totally futile” moses would’ve said, “ah crap, you know what? you’re right, let’s just stay slaves, I like oppression me”? Man your arrogance reeks so bad I can smell it here…
“It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…”
So first you make “sides” then go on to claim yours is hated by all and therefore on the defensive and therefore righteous. News for you sunshine, a lot of people hate a lot of things, doesn’t make those things “right” nor should it bother them at all…
Now since I have responded to your post (which obviously wanted responses) please be so kind to respond to mine or I shall dismiss you as casually as you posted here.
Finally just as an aside someone sent me this from the BBC website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6083468.stm
Pelican eats pigeon. Way to go pelican, too many of the damn things and they crap on my car…
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dammit that took rather longer than I hoped…
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Dammit and I forgot this bit:
“Please do not take any offensive “hate mail†written by Christians as an example of Christianity.”
Sorry, I’m afraid I have to accept your first answer. And I’m afraid I have to say I *will* take whatever I like to be an example of Christianity. You do not have a vetting process for followers so you have those that claim to be Christian that are – unfortunately – complete morons.
It seems to me to be a pastafarian you only need to have an open mind and more than one braincell.
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OMG… Despite my general disdain of L337speek, I am afraid that awesome pelican article can have only one reply.
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ROFLMAO
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SSorry, msnspeak…
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I am lucky that I have the ability to choose my beliefs/religion. I have taken a long look at the different teachings, and I have some questions…
I think that ‘theatans” as alien spirits that inhabit (possibly) my body, may not make sense, so I don’t know if Scientology is right for me. But so many people believe it…
Then, when John Smith read from the gold thing-a-ma-doos, I didn’t buy that either.
Then there are the 40 virgins, hmm, that one almost had me. All I had to do was die in battle fighting the infidels, then the hot babes would be mine! Then I thought “how can I tell my buds that I scored with 40 virgins if I was dead?” No good. Jesus died for me, OK! Here’s a guy that must really like me! He died for me, he told us about the wonderful God in heaven, who slaughters people, and sends disease, and wants sacrifices, and wants us to sing to him, and worship him, and give our money to churches that support priests who molest children, and fear him and love him, and obey him and fear him and fear him and fear him. But, apparently he loves us, whether or not we love him. He loves us so much that he will not allow us into heaven if we don’t believe in him. He will make sure we burn in hell with all the muslims, and scientologists, and mormans, and buddhists, and on and on and on.
Then we have the FSM. Tolerance, logic, fun, BEER VOLCANOES are the basis of it’s faith. I don’t even think FSM would hate me if I didn’t believe. Wow! The world is such a big place when I take the time to look at it with clarity. Poor Christians… So convinced they are right, so afraid to be wrong. (and apparently as easily pissed off as muslims)
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RAmen
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Rolls On Floor with chairman MAO?
Is that why he’s always so glum? His Ass has fallen Off?
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BUT, maybe being a christian wouldn’t be all bad? It does have some perks…
I can tell other people what is right and wrong! I would have the final say in all things Godly…I could say things like “I pitty you”, and “Jesus saves” and “Repent!”, and “that is stupid”.
I can blame others for our misery! “morality has lapsed! Homosexuals and liberals have taken over our culture! That is why we are having hurricanes, and AIDS; because GOD is angry!
I can use my beliefs to gain political power! I can preach to my brothers and sisters and influence their votes, to get politicians elected who say things like “Evil”, and “heavenly father”, and “faith”. Apparently God is not all powerful though. If he was, then I would feel safe and secure in my faith. Knowing that God loved me and would provide for me. BUT, since he is not all powerful, he tells us to elect even more powerful men, politician-type men, who will do God’s, and our work here on earth.
I could have my own magazine, and lots of TV shows. All dedicated to spreading my faith, and excluding yours (because I get to decide what is right and wrong; see top of page).
I could call for the assassination of world leaders!
I could make whoopie with prostitutes, with married men and women, and children!
I could scare the hell into you at church, then go home and tug the trout to some kiddie nakedness on the computer, all with a clear conscience, because God forgives my tresspasses.
I could start a war.
I could decide if others have babies or not……………..
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Just watched the vid of creationism, wow, and the comment about bj’s, class.
Reminded me of this guy
Bill Hicks (RIP) on Evolution:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSH6ofHbeUw
He would love FSM…
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Let’s say that when a man dies, his remains are laid upon the ground, or just under it’s surface. Let’s work back to the first man who walked the earth. We’ll call him ‘Adam’. Adam lives a full, rich life, and dies in his 30’s. Remember, he is our theoretic first man. His body falls to the ground. 2000 years later, an acheologist digs up Adam, identified by the rib we were told was missing. Underneath Adam, oh, several meters down, is a skeleton of a little birdie. We can KNOW that the birdie was there first, it’s little body having hit the ground long enough before Adam that it’s little carcas was covered over by several meters of earth. Mind you, no man existed before Adam, and no birdies I know can use shovels. When Adam laid upon the ground, he disproved creationism. Since God created heaven and earth, and created man to live upon the earth amongst all of his creatures, how did the little birdie exist before god created him? Maybe God came to earth and used his golden shovel (same one christians eat from) and burried the carcas to confuse us? Maybe when all the dinosaurs died, they agreed to arrange themself in the stratta of soil and rock according to assignment by God’s decree?
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I would like to say that evolution actually has reason to be taught in the classroom.
There is infinitely more evidence that supports it that ID. First off logic, simply think about ID. Does it make sense that the world was created by a supernatural force and is unchanging? no. If so, explain resistant strains and how they are caused to me? i would like to know ID’s response to that, it seems to be avoided. You can also OBSERVE mutations. You can see that DNA mutates, its apparent in our everyday world. If DNA was exactly the same every a cell splits, there would be no variation in the world. That being the case, it logically follows that species will change over time, no? And would the species with the beneficial mutations not reproduce more than those than those without the beneficial mutations? I have yet to see a logical argument supporting ID on this site other than “OMGGG!!! ID IS REAL BECUZ JESUS CREATED TEH WORLD AND EVRYTHING!” (i apologize to the christians who do not speak like this, but the vast majority of hate-mails and posts are caps lock happy 10 year olds). And do NOT try to seperate ID from christianity. it doesnt work. teaching ID in the schools is the same as teaching a revised book of genesis in the schools, whereas teaching evolution is teaching a logical theory based on tangible things in this world. In conclusion, i would like to remind everyone that evolution has led science to other discoveries, and simply taking it out and disregarding it is stupidity. A main thing is science is that it is supposed to be SEPERATE from religion, lets keep it that way. Otherwise, teach FSMism (its not based on religion, is it? no more than ID is on the book of genesis, at least), or just dont teach anything at all. And most sane people would agree, both of those options are not very appealing.
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Wow. Rich Scientists. That’s a thought. That’s why my professors walk to class because they can’t afford a car. Because they are pushing evolution at people and waiting to strike it rich. Not because they are saving up for an education for their children while trying to help the environment. I didn’t know.
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hehe some people just don’t realize the definition of a theory…
a theory is just a statement that uses logic and observations to best describe a pattern of events.
a theory is NOT a crackpot explanation by aparent nutcases.
everything considered to be scientific fact today are just theories yet to be disproved. examples: theory of electricity, gravity, relativity (yes, they have proved relativity).
i’d suggest everyone read the definition of “theory” before giving the statement “evolution is just a theory, it’s not fact, therefore it shouldn’t be taught” for a reason of not teaching evolution.
signed, *a warrior for logic*
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and also, evolution is the only explanation that is based on science that explains the world. even if evolution is wrong (which i don’t think it is), it is still the foremost SCIENTIFIC theory of today. in the past, there have been many schools teaching incorrect information, simply because it was the foremost scientific observations. and i do not disapprove of this, since they were trying to be scientific.
however, if we allow just one explanation NOT based on science seep into the classroom, we must simply give other explanations their fair share too. there are many, many religions on earth, most of which have a different creation story. because of this, we must allow all of them to be taught if we allow one.
that is the point of this website, to attract attention to this point. this site is also here to politey point out that it would be highly difficult to teach our children hundreds of stories at once. along with the scientific theory.
by the way, it seems to me that evolution has enough evidence to be considered as much as a fact as gravity is a fact.
signed *a warrior for logic*
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I don’t think that everyone hates Christians.
Just the people who have been tortured, burned, drowned, or otherwise persecuted for not being Christian…
Most likely some of their descendants, or anyone who has ever been told they’re going to burn in hell for ever if they don’t cave in to the demands and exhortations of born-again-Christians (of many different Protestant sects)…
Probably anyone who has seen the disrimination of Christian leaders against other religions when certain of them ascend to political power and force citizens to accept their holy documents being placed in courthouses above all other documents…
And just maybe anyone who has had to suffer in silence at professional social events as Christians get together and proselytize loudly, condemning and insulting other people for failing to accept their God as “the one true God…” suffering silently because Christians have been known to beat, maim, and firebomb other people for refusing to cave in to their religion and they’re not stupid enough to take on zealots when outnumbered…
So not everyone hates Christians.
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The Mace, as my friend Darwin’s Monkey has stated before, Evolution is both a theory and a fact. It is an accepted fact “evolution: The gradual process by which the present diversity of plant and animal life arose from the earliest and most primitive organisms, which is believed to have been continuing for the past 3000 million years.”
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The theory of Evolution which is not fact (obviously by the term theory) is simply the method by which evolution occurs.
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Darwin never came up with the idea of evolution, it had been around for a very long time before him, but he gave a theory of how it could happen.
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Wow. Funny how Christians hate it when you lump them into one category but it’s okay for them to do it. My wayward soul doesn’t want to be saved by your righteous one just so you can die thinking “God” will let you into this “heaven” of his.
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to “nowtheworldhasmeaning…”
yay someone smart! =)
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Gravity is also known as “the theory of gravity”. It’s a scientific term. Some of them also call humans by the scientific name “Homo-sapien”. I promise they’re not calling you gay. (Calling things by the word “theory” goes along with the entire hypothesis system and all those other heretic inventions)
“The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else. The same cannot be said for scientists, it appears.”
Scientists aren’t pressing their beliefs upon you. The majority of the planet’s population is simply presenting their FACTS to you. You’re walking off a cliff screaming “gravity is a theory!” and those of us with a love for all human life are simply trying to stop you from hurting yourself and others.
And it’s ok to be spiritual and believe in evolution, and other “theories” which were proved centuries ago. The scientists aren’t a huge cult of demon worshippers or atheists just as christians aren’t all a rampaging hoard of crusaders here to slaughter the infidels.
(Which reminds me of an odd fact about the crusades. Christians shouldn’t defend the crusades as justice becuase more christians then muslims were killed by christians in the crusades.)
Oh and about evolution being unprovable. Besides all the mountains of scientific evidence: Dog breeding, samurai face crabs in japan, penicillin resistant bacteria, and insects that resist a hundred different kinds of poison farmers put on their fields. Think about each of these and do some research on google.
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“The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else.”
haha, stop lying.
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The face that it is called the “Theory of Evolution” (which it is in every place it’s taught) clearly insinuates that it is NOT a fact. It IS however, backed by strong scientific evidence. To say that evolution never happened isn’t correct.
To evolve is to change and adapt, and let’s face it, things are changing and adapting all around us. The Flu evolves every year. BUT! The real question is where did evolution begin? You cannot deny that evolution happened when it’s happening all around us today. However, what the debate really is about is whether God started the planet out and let it evolve or if the planet formed and evolved on its own. Everyone in here needs to do research so they know exactly what they’re arguing about.
ID is really backed by science, it’s not just the religious aspect, but the fact that the church is USING that to get religion into classrooms is wrong. I have no problem with teachers saying “It could either be science or it could be a higher power” as long as they have scientific evidence to back everything up. Hey, if they want to form an elective religion class, that’s great, but if the church wants their science taught in our science classes, then I think our science should be able to be taught in their churches.
As for the hate mail I’m supposed to be replying to, not everyone hates Christians, but let’s face it…the biggest screw-up in USA history (Bush) are Christian and constantly use their religion to gain them power. Damn right I’m going to judge you as soon as you start spouting your religious crap, because most of them are sexist, hypocritical hateful people.
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ND,
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ID is not backed by science because ID is not testable. Please explain to me how you test the hypothesis that something was intelligently designed. I’m curious to know.
.
OEJ
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OEJ,
.
I didn’t think it was either, but apparently scientists found this ancient micro-organism that has a tail, so they looked to see what makes this tail move, and there’s a motor-like thing in it’s body, and no one can find out where it came from. Some people said that perhaps it was a few things that evolved together, but no one can prove it. According to the scientists, during that time period where this organism comes from, there’s nothing for something like that to evolve from. I’m not sure if I believe it (like I said, there’s no proof either way), but the fact is that as of now, there’s no where for this motor to have come from, and the ID people base their beliefs on this.
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ND
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Chunkeylimey,
“Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Please shut up until you know your own Holy Book better. Jesus DID tell you to keep your faith private. Take JESUS’s advise and go into your closet and stay there.”
Ummm… ok. Is it only me that can read the first five words of that passage? Or did you get confused by the ye-olde language?
When you pray, pray in a closet. Prayer is part of practising your faith, prayer is not all there is to faith. Pray to the God who is in secret places.
And Gill, very true.
I would wade into this rather interesting debate on the merits of ID, but it really doesn’t matter all that much. I worry that people get so heated about this… sorry to say this, but at times both sides look like they have something they need to prove. Is the theory of Evolution that useful to you? None of the humans reading this forum were there when God / The Big Bang / His Noodly Appendage / [insert own theory here] started the ball rolling anyway, so why do people think their theory is so much more important?
(Apologies if this sounds like something one of those weirdo-christians spout all the time) Personally, I’m gonna wait ’til God explains it to me. And, well, if I’m wrong about it all, I’ll be dead anyway so it won’t matter.
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Hey ND, its called a flagellum. And in my post on evolution I point out that this orgainsim is not irreducibly complex (learn this term). That is every stage in its development serves a purpose. Evolution can explain its existence just fine. Scientists have proved that earlier developments of the flagellums tail served a function. Once again its called a flagellum- read about it.
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Undecided,
you make an interesting argument. However, what you are essentially saying is that you have no idea what is going on or you have no idea whether or not there is a god. Am I presenting your view correctly? Thats cool if that is your view. However, I have to ask you, what do you really believe? That is it seems that you do believe in a type of god. Is this belief based upon evidence or is it just a wish? If it is based upon evidence, that is you lean toward the idea of there being a god due to some reason, then I wonder what that evidence or reason for it is? If you belive it just because it makes you feel good, then at least you are not deluded.
Personally, I lean toward there not being a god. There may be one, but I dont think there is. The reason I hold this view is because I see no evidence for one. Note that there are many different interpretations of what god is- but I think you kno what i mean.
Furthermore, the reason why some of us get so heated is because ones world view (metaphysical view- any philosophy majors around here?) reflects how one acts. It seems to me that certain religios views are acting in poor ways. Ie: stem cell research, euthenasia, abortion, gay marriage and of course evolution being taught in class rooms. Personally I feel that man should strive to know and teach the truth of things. And to me it seems that sin, jesus, and the christian god is destructive to the truth and society- it is a dangerous lie.
I wish that mankind could move out of its superstitious past and act according to reason and science. Evolution may not be the most sound argument, but it is a hell of a lot closer than any theology is. Furthermore, certain moral decisions in this country should be based upon sound reasoning and evidence rather than appeals to sin and religion. This is why I fight the battle that I do. “If ignorance is bliss than whipe the smile off my face” – Rage Against the Machine
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One more thing Undecided, Please read my last post on David Hume and ask yourself this question. “What do i really see in my daily experience, god or the impersonal forces of nature?”
It is true that non of us was around during the big bang. And it is true that non of us can really know if there is a god or not. However, we can draw logical conclusions based upon what we experience in our daily lives. If all that we see and experience is matter interacting with matter then what should we conclude is the author of the universe- An all powerful being!
It may be true that an all powreful super being exists, but why should any of us believe it?
The reason evolution is the better explaination is becasue it does have sound evidence and it deals with what we experience in our daily lives- just the forces of nature. There is absolutely no evidence for god (appealing to the fact that evolution may be wrong does not provide evidence for god- there may be another method we are not aware of) and we do not experience god in our daily activities.
The whole point of this website is that if one is going to believe something without evidence, then we might as well believe in the flying spaghetti monster.
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One Eyed Jack, There is no way to test intelligent design (as you already know). The only way we could know if the universe was created by an all powerful being is if that all powerful being made himself known to us in some way. Since he has not done this, there is no good reason to believe in him.
That is why I believe in the flying spaghetti monster. I have no good reason to believe that he exists. I do know that certain things are hard to explain (our existence for example) therefore I conclude that the flying spaghetti monster must have created me. You see the fact that I can not explain something is evidence for his existence. Neato. It was once very hard for humans to explain mental illness, and we used to think that it was demons in there bodies put there by god- but we now know that it is just, what? yes the impersonal laws of nature messing with brain chemistry.
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Gravity, like evolution, is not a fact, it is a theory.
A theory indicates that something has moved well beyond being a hypothesis by the virtue that it has accrued both mountains of scientific evidence, studies, tests in support of it and mountains of scientific studies, tests, etc. which have failed to refute it.
No theory is fact because theories can neither be proven nor disproven. In fact, theories progress through history dialectically (consult Hegel if you have never heard of dialectics) like any other idea.
For example, Newtonian physics assumed the speed of light could be reached with enough energy. Einstein later came and showed that the speed of light cannot be reached because there is an asymptote at the speed of light. Velocity in relation to energy was also shown to have a square relationship (E=mc2) rather than a linear relationship. However, at relatively small velocities Newtonian and Einsteinian physics are virtually the same. This argument is a dialectic as Newton’s theory was the thesis, Einstein’s theory the antithesis, and the result that Newton is essentially still correct at small velocities but otherwise invalid is the synthesis.
Now to the point. Because science is continually progressing, in education there is the responsibility to teach not only what was previously thought, but also give a current view of thought. If we were to teach only fact, there would be no science, history, math, english, or even religion (as hard as it is for some to accept). None of these are fact, they are all made of systems, theories, and modes of thought which are continually changing (even a dialectic is a theory of philosophy, it too has changed and will continue to change through time). Language changes, our view of history changes, ways of viewing math change and its models change (base 10 is a model, not a fact), science definitely changes, religions change; in summary, our schools are here to reflect modes of thought. When were younger things are presented as fact because a foundation has to be established to build upon. Later in life it is shown everything we were taught was accepted theory, but this is seen when we are mature enough to understand such things (or perhaps it is seen by those willing to understand it). Thus, our educational systems would not exist if it taught facts instead of theory.
Socrates stated it best: I only know one thing for sure, and that is that I know nothing.
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Uhhhhhhhhhhh last time I checked Scientists back there data up where as dumb Christians just say stuff out there ass.
For the unintelligent who might be reading this let me tell you what evolution really is.
Evolution happens with populations and not individuals. Meaning that your genes are not going to change in your life time and it will take many generations to get any changes and these changes can be social or physical. Let me be more specific.
1.) Genetic drift: 2 great examples of this would be Genetic Drift and Fonder Effect. You wonder why no one gets the bubonic plague any more… hmmmmmm I guess “god†is not pissed off any more.
2.) Gene flow: the gain or loss of genetic traits by the movement of individuals in a population.
3.) Mutation: causes new Gambits in DNA; however it is mostly bad but can sometimes work out well.
4.) Non-random Mating: Selection of a mate other than by chance and will favor particular characteristics over time.
5.) Natural Selection: Populations are influenced by environmental pressures and population will adapt accordingly.
Hope that helps.
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@Fireeye
…For the unintelligent who might be reading this let me tell you what evolution really is….
I want to pull you up on that comment.
Your implication is that anyone who isn’t familar (read: hasn’t been taught) with the finer points of the different levels on which evolutionary pressures occur is unintelligent.
Not so. However, I am familiar with these terms and what you are describing is classed as macro-evolotion. (Population Gentetics to be more concise) It is also impossible to separate macro- and micro-evolution in the overall scheme of things. Your points are correct. The final level of selection (and therefore adaptation) works at the population level based on fitness and reproduction (survival), resulting in heredity of beneficial mutations.
RAmen
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BTW Fireeye brings up an interesting topic. Inbreeding. Conservation geneticists measure gene flow (comparing the the amount of variability in gene sequences using same techniques as for paternity testing) in and between populations to determine their extinction risk. A very useful tool. Like all fields of biology and science in general though, they debate amongst themselves as to which species are most importantly saved.(using the amount of money/time/enviroment available) This “paternity testing” saves a lot of time and money in identifying the different species at risk. Bet the god-botherers don’t like the inbreeding analysis tools we have available either.
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Er Gunner, you do know that it has been known for about 50 years or so that Lucy wasn’t one of our anscestors, she was in fact another branch of the human family. Please, read something from an actual science book on evolution (preferably published within the last 10 years, with something about DNA in it, a lot of changes have occured) or a website if you don’t have a library in your town. Your arguments are like saying a steak looks nothing like a cow so they can’t have once been the same thing.
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@ND
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“scientists found this ancient micro-organism that has a tail, so they looked to see what makes this tail move, and there’s a motor-like thing in it’s body, and no one can find out where it came from.”
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What you are referring to is Behe’s argument for irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellar motor. His example is flawed. It has been shown how parts of the motor have functioning purposes separate from the motor, indicating they could have evolved separately and combined at a later time. For a detailed explanation, see “Finding Darwin’s God” by Kenneth Miller.
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You’re right that evolution of the motor can’t be proven, but it doesn’t need to be. The basis of ID is irreducible complexity… no part of the whole could have served a purpose prior to it’s present construction. All that needs be shown is a resonable possible use for the components of the motor or a less evolved version of it and the example falls to pieces.
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The ID advocates search for examples like this and each one in turn is knocked down. How do they respond? They go out to find another, and another, and another… It’s pointless and it’s bad science. All they are doing is looking for something that hasn’t been thoroughly studied in this context and saying “you don’t know, so it must be by design.” Bad, bad, baaaad science… but typical religion.
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OEJ
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Evolution- why it doesn’t work for me… and no, I do not believe a big, white-bearded man in a robe created the earth in six days. However, evolution is a theory that was a great idea in its time (Darwin’s) but in the ensuing years has just not checked out. It is unreasonable to believe in something because you have been told it is so. I think most people who believe in evolution have never checked their facts. It’s what they were taught in school and therefore, to them, it’s true. I used to believe it too, but then I started actually looking for evidence and discovered that
· Every well-known “proof†of evolution throughout history has turned out to be a hoax. Piltdown man, Orce man, Java man, Nebraska man, Haeckel’ Forgeries, Archaeoraptor Liaoningensis: Dinosaur-bird ancestor, the “moths†in England that were supposedly evolving due to air pollution and were actually planted by the scientists, and so on and so forth
· the “list of vestigal organs” drawn up by evolutionists at the beginning of the 20th century is now without foundation
· The fossil record doesn’t support it. Out of the millions of fossils in the world, not one transitional form has been found. EVER. You would think if there was all this evolving going on, over the millennium, the fossils would have some small example of it, don’t you?
· embryonic evidence, which Darwin himself said was “second to none in importance.” Is. Not. There. As I said before, the so-called “proof†of it, created by Haeckle, turned out to be another big lie… a lie that is still in some school textbooks today. When he was caught, he defended himself by saying that other evolutionists had committed similar offenses. Great reasoning.
· science of probability has not been favorable to evolutionary theory, as found by James Coppedge, of the Center for Probability Research in Biology in California, made the calculations: he applied all the laws of probability studies to the possibility of a single cell coming into existence by chance. He considered in the same way a single protein molecule, and even a single gene. He computed a world in which the entire crust of the earth – all the oceans, all the atoms, and the whole crust were available. He then had these amino acids bind at a rate one and one-half trillion times faster than they do in nature. In computing the possibilities, he found that to provide a single protein molecule by chance combination would take 10, to the 262nd power, years (That is, the number 1 followed by 262 zeros.) Similar conclusions have been come to by Emile Bore, Sir Fred Hoyle, and others.
But don’t believe me- look it up for yourself. The “proof†is not there. It’s not real. I find the idea of Adam and Eve about as likely as the FSM… but just because the biblical account of creation isn’t true doesn’t mean evolution is, either.
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holy smokes, this has 208 comments! sorry, being an ignorant atheist, i can’t be bothered to read. so pardon repititions.
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There are evidences against evolution, there are evidences for evolution. I’m actually quite interested in some evidences against evolution. The 5000 year old T Rex that some creationist meuseum found? ID is not SCIENCE. There is no SCIENCE to ID. ID cannot go through the highly rational and intelligent process known as the Scientific Method. There is just nothing to proceed with…
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The Bible is NOT considered evidence. You can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible is true. With that said, I don’t see where else ID can get it’s “evidences” from.
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Evolution has been observed not just in Genes. Try doing a google search on Memes, which I think originated from Dawkins (be pasta on him!). Evolution does not necessarily concern DNA and Genes. Evolution is simply a product of Differential Survival of Replicating Entities. The Replicator, on Earth, has been identified as the Gene and more recently (and controversially), the Meme. Somewhere in outer space, I won’t be surprised if there are other forms of Evolving Replicators in the form of Crystal Lattice or Eletromagnetic Waves.
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We are insignificant in this Universe. I believe it is very arrogant of anyone to believe that there is a God who created us, the only thing “living” thing in this Universe. The word “living” meaning anything that replicates and propagates itself with inheritable properties.
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I may have said this in previous posts. ID is a very dangerous thing to believe in. Any one with a rational inquisitive mind will start thinking why are some animals “Intelligently Designed” the way they are. And if everything was supposedly created by one fella, that fella has to be a real nasty person.
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In fact, we are right at the birthplace of the Meme, relative to the Gene. Man is still unsure how the first replicating “gene” was evolved, but it is almost certainly not by magic.
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Every well known proof of evidence? What about Lucy discovered in Africa, was that a hoax too?
Vestigial organs? What about the human appendix? Tailbone?
Thousands of transitional fossils have been found, where are you getting this information? Mudhoppers, fish with legs, reptiles with feathers, i mean seriously.
Embryonic Evidence – look at comparative pictures of pig, human, fish, etc embryos. Why do human embryos start out with gills? Are you kidding?
I have never heard of James Coppedge or his research, but examine the Miller/Urey experiment in which they, well, formed amino acids out of base elements that are thought to have existed in early-earth days.
Also, are you also trying to deny microevolution? Because if you are, then I’d encourage you to look into the matter more – insects evolving to adapt to pesticides, diseases adapting to our treatments, finch beaks, the list goes on and on, not even ID is contesting microevolution because it’s observable in the every day world. It’s a very simple concept of creatures adapting to changing environments and the best suited surviving better than those who are ill-suited.
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headthrick. my website is http://www.usas.org what the hell are you talking about??
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Matt, i’m going to rebutt every single one of your arguements. bwahaha.
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What about Lucy discovered in Africa
—”She died in the Great Flood.”
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Vestigial organs? What about the human appendix? Tailbone?
—”Intelligent Design my friend. We will discover God’s purpose for them in time to come.”
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Thousands of transitional fossils have been found, where are you getting this information? Mudhoppers, fish with legs, reptiles with feathers, i mean seriously.
—”Great Flood. No space for them on the Ark. pfft… aren’t you listening??? *rolls eyes*”
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Embryonic Evidence – look at comparative pictures of pig, human, fish, etc embryos. Why do human embryos start out with gills? Are you kidding?
—”God made us so. It is part of his plan.”
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I have never heard of James Coppedge or his research, but examine the Miller/Urey experiment in which they, well, formed amino acids out of base elements that are thought to have existed in early-earth days.
—”You don’t know the environment of Earth back in those days! You can’t simulate an unknown environment, can you? Hah, Gotcha! And by the way, I have a 5000 year old T Rex to prove that the Earth is 6000 years old. =D”
*The Atheist in me speaks: Yup, those experiments are darn cool. It at least tells us that it IS possible for complex molecules to arise from simple discrete molecules under correct conditions. When you consider there are billions of planets and billions of years have passed, it is ALMOST DEFINITE, that “life” would have evolved some where. I would believe that there is a supernatural being if Life NEVER evolved…
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Also, are you also trying to deny microevolution? Because if you are, then I’d encourage you to look into the matter more – insects evolving to adapt to pesticides, diseases adapting to our treatments, finch beaks, the list goes on and on, not even ID is contesting microevolution because it’s observable in the every day world. It’s a very simple concept of creatures adapting to changing environments and the best suited surviving better than those who are ill-suited.
—”Hah, you think I’ll lose? NOOOO… let me tell you, God started the entire motion of Evolution! Hah, pwn joo n00b!”
*The Atheist in me speaks: Evidence for Microevolution: Flu Virus. ’nuff said.
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I really can’t stand it. I have stopped arguing with Christians who deny evolution or that Earth is about 3-4 billion years old. They can twist and warp ANYTHING to suit their arguement. These people belong to the “No-Contest” category.
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Matt-Of course I’m not denying microevolution. Rarely does anyone deny that… changes in the gene pool of a population over time which result in relatively small changes to the organisms in the population — changes which would not result in the newer organisms being considered as different species.
As for the “tailboneâ€â€¦ Several muscles converge from the ring-like arrangement of the pelvic (hip) bones to anchor on the coccyx, forming a bowl-shaped muscular floor of the pelvis called the “pelvic diaphragmâ€. The incurved coccyx with its attached pelvic diaphragm keeps the many organs in our abdominal cavity from literally falling through between our legs. Some of the pelvic diaphragm muscles are also important in controlling the elimination of waste from our body through the rectum.
The appendix, like the once “vestigial” tonsils and adenoids, is a lymphoid organ (part of the body’s immune system) which makes antibodies against infections in the digestive system. Believing it to be a useless evolutionary “left over,” many surgeons once removed even the healthy appendix whenever they were in the abdominal cavity. Today, removal of a healthy appendix under most circumstances would be considered medical malpractice.
According to Richard Leakey, one the best-known fossil-anthropologist in the world, “Lucy’s†skull was so incomplete that most of it was “imagination made of plaster of parisâ€. Leakey said in 1983 that no firm conclusion could be drawn about what species Lucy belonged to. But what about the australopithecines (the group to which Lucy is said to have belonged)? “The various australopithecines are, indeed, more different from both African apes and humans in most features than these latter are from each other. Part of the basis of this acceptance has been the fact that even opposing investigators have found these large differences as they too, used techniques and research designs that were less biased by prior notions as to what the fossils might have been.†Oxnard, Professor of Anatomy and Human Biology at the University of Western Australia. Neither Lucy nor any other australopithecine is therefore intermediate between humans and African apes. Neither are they similar enough to humans to be any sort of ancestor of ours.
It is a well-established fact that the human embryo (like all mammalian embryos) never has gills in any sense of the word. The fanciful notion of gills is based upon the presence of four alternating ridges and grooves in the neck region of the human embryo (called pharyngeal arches and pouches) that bear a superficial resemblance to gills. While similar arches do give rise to gills in certain aquatic vertebrates such as fish, their developmental fate in mammals has nothing to do with gills or even breathing. In man and other mammals, these arches and pouches develop into part of the face, muscles of mastication and facial expression, bones of the middle ear, and endocrine glands.
I am not familiar with the Miller/Urey experiment, honestly. I will look into it, though.
“Thousands of transitional fossils have been found, where are you getting this information? Mudhoppers, fish with legs, reptiles with feathers, i mean seriously.â€
Seriously, everywhere you look at such “proofs†of evolution, you can find reputable evidence against them. I’m not a “Creationist†out to prove jesus is the savior… I want the truth. I haven’t found it in evolution.
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why can’t you apply microevolution, which is an undeniable fact, to macroevolution? Macroevolution does occur, all i can remember though is some frog with its eyes in the mouth…
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well, if you wanna rebutt the Miller experiments, I have already done it for ya. no one can even imagine the chemical composition of the atmosphere of Earth 3 billion years ago. hence validity of Miller experiements as evidence for evolution remains controversial.
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but to me, more “evident” than god… I would rather put my faith in something that is progressing and receptive rather in something that is being compromised with every scientific discovery as history has proven since the Renaissance… it is just a matter of time before even the most fundamental are challenged by science…
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As naijiew says, within ten minutes of looking at the experiments, I found that this too, can be refuted, especially if you consider that it was begun with that flawed premise… Miller-Urey thought that earth’s initial atmosphere was a hydrogen rich environment, yet we don’t know… scientists now (particularly geochemists) believe that volcanic gasses were predominant in our atmosphere. When volcanic gasses are used the Miller-Urey experiment does not work.
Listen, for the third time, I’m not out to “prove” god. It is possible to doubt evolution and not believe in the creation sh*t either.
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To those of you who say christians dont press their beliefs on others.
thats completely true, as long as you exclude the hundreds of years of killing jews in europe, the crusades, and the countless preachers on this website.
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RAmen SRP…RAmen
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According to the Christian faith they must try to spread the word, We at least according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, by not doing so you are not following the Christian ideology and are thus a bad Christian.
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So how can you guys possibly say that you dont press your beliefs on others?
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I am sick and tired of what I see religion doing to the world, give it up – have some pasta!!
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I’m not disagreeing with anything here. But, you must understand that Evolution is not just a theory, it is a most widely accepted SCIENTIFIC theory. In (public) school we learn science…religion? no. So, doesn’t it make just a litttle more sense to teach scientific theory?
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I dont hate christians. I just dislike them very much.
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http://www.stampandshout.com/_gfx/_bst/_ex/we-have-fossils.gif
How do you like me now?
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naijiew, for a minute i didn’t realize you were joking!
But again, why can’t microevolution be extrapolated to hundreds of millions of years for macroevolution
Plus, we’re not descended from apes, we share a common ancestor.
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in response to the original post though, scientists getting rich off of evolution, now that’s brilliant. Why aren’t scientists rolling around in cash from other concepts then? I would think that the law of thermodynamics would rake in the money
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@believeneither
“……changes in the gene pool of a population over time which result in relatively small changes to the organisms in the population — changes which would not result in the newer organisms being considered as different species…..”
Oh dear! More research required believeneither! You seem a bit confused.
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Take special note of the term “over time”. Also try the concept of accumulation of heritable changes (genetic mutations) “over time”
Hope that helps.
RAmen
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The ignorance… the ignorance… it hurts me so! Make it go away!
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OEJ
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I wish I coulds OEJ. We must persevere. Suggest you take sacrament for strength and wash down with beer.
RAmen
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Hmm …typing outside my ability yet again.
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Well, to the person who first posted, here’s a newsflash Walter Cronkite…….EVERYTHING IN SCIENCE IS A THEORY! That’s why many things are post-noted with the word theory….”The tectonic plate theory”…..”the atomic theory”…..”the big bang theory”….these things are often accepted as fact in the science world, but if substantial, provable evidence is shown to denote the theory at hand, then the theory will be dismissed for a better one, and THAT is the key difference between the rational science and the belligerent religion….Here’s some other facts for you to handle…evolution is not “random”….and, just because something is unknown does not mean it is unknowable (this is in reference to the common examples of “its-so-complex-god-must-have-done-it”…you do not explain one mystery with a BIGGER mystery)
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“You must understand, however, that you have completely pissed us off”
Where do you get off making a comment like that? What makes you so high and mighty? I don’t care if I, or this site, or homosexuals, or prawn-eaters, or women that teach and wear pants piss you off. Grow up, deal with it and act like an adult. It’s not like we make you come to this site.
Christianity gives me the shits sometimes but I don’t want to go to your sites and “flame” you guys, you know, when you piss me off.
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RAmen Hacbarton
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Believeneither, you’re trying to use probablility to disprove evolution, yopu must be joking. the universe, as far as we know at any rate, is infinite, so, no matter how small the probability, that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Forgive me for not being a biologist who can give you the name of the scientist that did these experimants, but evolution has been observed in bacterium. The life cycle of bacterium as I’m sure we all know is short enough to see them evolve. just grow a few, add some penicillen and let those that survive grow a new colony, add penicillen again, and, guess what, it doesn’t kill them. This is evolution by natural selection, all creationist who’ve gotten lost and wandered onto this site take note, the origional imunity came from a completely random mutation. perhaps you’d like to work out the probability of that?
Oh and, to all the creationist, I’m Christian, but I really don’t see the point in changing the therm, ‘I don’t understand’ to ‘God’. We were given the capacity for reasonable thought for a reason. Do you not think it’s wrong to refuse to advance knowledge because it doesn’t fit with an allegorical story? Allowing you’re mind to rot because you never let anything new in is wasteing that gift.
About scientists getting rich off the laws of thermodynamics, those laws are completely from observation, it was engineers who came up with them, besides, noone will get rich off them unless they break them, and if they do that, they’ll be able to create an overunity engine and solve all the world’s problems as far as power is concerened, which will make them very rich indeed, as well as the proud owner of a nobel prize.
Incase anyone thiks I’m crazy and up really early/late, I’m in Ireland, it’s well into morning now.
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Of course everybody hates Christians. Who wouldn’t hate a bunch of whiny, demanding, deluded epistemological and spiritual atavisms who want to run everything at the point of a sword, waving a purportedly magical book and Jeezis-crackers …and when anyone dissents, the Inquisitions, crusades, and stolen elections begin?
You want to have an imaginary friend? Great. Have a ball.
But keep it to yourself. I don’t care, and my ancestors came here 300 years ago to get away from Christianity. And all religion.
Grow up. Nobody cares about what you believe. It should be enough for you that you do, instead of running around demanding everyone agree, and everyone feel sorry for you. Go away and pray. In a closet alone, like Jesus said.
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“I can give you evidence against evolution if you so desire”
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Please do then I will give evidence that the sun is a giant light bulb – That the moon is made of cream cheese- That aliens from another planet are actualy the ruling classes- and John Edward is really a psychic.
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If there was any evidence, that is real factual irrefutable evidence, against the THEORY of evolution, you and your ilk would have blasted it across the world.
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What you mean is you have blind faith and anecdotal enforcement of nothing.
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You should understand that scientists are continualy looking to refute evoloution not because of some mystic faith, but because science always questions, the fact the haven’t yet contradicted the THEORY isnt through lack of looking, but lack of contradictory evidence.
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Suppose they could just say “thats not right because me and my mates say so” just like you do.
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Is there a website that has the information for ID? Mainly all the websites I ve seen basicaly talk about the controversy surrounding it, but put forth no evidence. I would appreciate it if one of these christians that keep posting here would give us a link to look over. I m interested in both sides.
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I would just like to point out in response to believeneither’s earlier posts, the fact that peppered moths were placed on desired tree trunks does not change the fact that during the industrial revolution in England, melanic moths rose dramatically in numbers while typical moths declined. we may have got the original cause wrong, but the change in populations is still an example of evolution in action. something caused melanic forms to be more successful than typical forms, and we’re pretty certain it wasn’t deliberate eradication of typical forms.
Also, while Archeaoraptor turned out to be a hoax, the two fossils from which it had been constructed very much weren’t. The lower half of Archaeoraptor had been constructed from a relative of Avimimus (another feathered dinosaur) while the top half belonged to a dinosaur species with an arm structure very similar to archeaopterix. Prior to the “discovery” of archaeoraptor, neither of these species were known of. current investigations show that both of the fossils used to build archaeoraptor had very bird-like traits of their own.
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If religion had any shred of evidence there would be no dissent, there would still be bloody wars, but it would only be a matter of what flag to wave, what stoopid symbol to wear about your head/face/arse etc. You Christians just cant stand the fact that the Great Noodly One is as valid as your god.
Shiver me timbers…….pass the rum……..
RAmen.
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I think scientists work very hard for less money than lawyers, lobbyists, evangelical preachers, and big energy businesses for the purpose of creating space travel, space stations, the study of chemistry (for breathing and eating in harsh surroundings) and the study of other planets so that when the religious wars consume the Earth, those of us like-minded non-believers have a place to go and wait it out until the wars and fallout have subsided so we can return to our planet of origin. Then we can rebuild and teach our descendants about that history, the science that allowed us to survive, peaceful ways to live, and that we did it all without God, or as it were, He that started the problem in the first place. Scientists work hard for us to survive or, at the very least, be more comfortable. Religion works hard for us to destroy ourselves in the guise of peace, love, and charity, none of which are actuallt practiced by the “faithful.”
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From an excellnet web site I just found, relevent here:
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Claim CA001: Evolution is the foundation of an immoral worldview.
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Source: Moon, Rev. Sun Myung. 1990 (27 Mar.). Parents day and I. http://www.unification.net/1990/900327.html
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Response:
1. Evolution is descriptive. It can be immoral only if attempting to accurately describe nature is immoral.
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2. Any morals derived from evolution would have to recognize the fact that humans have evolved to be social animals. In a social setting, cooperation and even altruism lead to better fitness (Wedekind and Milinski 2000). The process of evolution leads naturally to social animals such as humans developing ethical principles such as the Golden Rule.
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3. Some bad morals, such as eugenics and social Darwinism, are based on misunderstandings of evolution. Therefore, it is important that evolution be taught well to negate such misunderstandings.
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4. Despite claims otherwise, creationism has its own problems. For one thing, it is founded on religious bigotry, so the foundation of creationism, by most standards, is immoral.
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5. Probably the most effective weapon against bad morals is exposure and publicity. Evolution (and science in general) is based on a culture of making information public.
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6. Scientists are their own harshest critics. They have developed codes of ethical behavior for several circumstances, and they have begun to talk about a general ethics (Rotblat 1999). Creationists have nothing similar.
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7. Some people feel better about themselves by demonizing others. Those people who are truly interested in morals begin by looking for immorality within themselves, not others.
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Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA001.html
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I would like to make a point about a so called “argument” about the fossil record.
It is sometimes said that the fossil record can’t be right, because no transitional species have been found.
What exactly defines a transitional species? A creature that is an exact average, a perfect 50/50 melding of 2 other fossil creatures found?
Examine the dates people. We’re dealing with millions of years. Different spots that contain fossils will probably be millions of years different time periods. I’ll use a well known example, the dinosaurs. As everyone knows, dinosaurs are, in general, pretty popular fossils. So why haven’t we found any so called “transitional species”?
The truth is that we have, its just that they were so differently evolved that we named it a different species. We then put it in a family tree of what evolved into what! Look at modern day times, now. There are tons and tons of different species of, say, frogs. All of them, when buried and let to rot until only their bones remain, look about the same when dug up. Fossilogically, they look extremely similar! However, they are classified as different species because they are different in their skin and behavior and shape and size, etc. So, the truth is, we are constantly finding transitional species. It’s just that we classify them as new species…its how it works.
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One of the most hotly debated topics is that of “The Fish That Walked”, or the magical fish-amphibian that had legs and was the first to haul its frame out of the water. This is the best example of a transitional species i have ever seen! (and yes, i have looked at the various species of legged fish that have been unearthed.) They have found a divirsity of fish ranging from a slightly long pair of front fins to completely muscled front and back legs. And everything in between. So if your complaining about not having a transitional species…
Just take a look around.
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And also what about the whale that walked???
Fossils have also discovered transitional steps of the evolution of the whale. From a land creature to a giant otter-like creature to an aquatic beast with vestigial legs, all the way to the modern day whales. So there!
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I was under the impression that Pastafarianism, as an alternative Intelligent Design explanation, was actually a counter to the “theory” of evolution. Of course, evolution can work hand in hand with intelligent design anyway… I was under the impression evolution theory says as much about what’s happening now than what happened eons ago. But then again, I’m very impressionable.
By the way, there’s a direct correlation between the decline of pirates and the buildup of waste in landfills. I sure miss pirates :(
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Hang on, some-one said something about the chances of single-celled organisms reproducing offspring with which will, in turn, produce ancestors which have lungs, muscles etc. Tiny changes through generations. For millions of years.
You find that hard to believe, yet you quite happily believe that there is no doubting that the world was created in a week, that the world is roughly 4000 years old, that a man can seperate a sea, that a man existed who could wake the dead and that the four horsemen shall be involved in the end of the world?
I don’t buy that you see.
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Uomo Felice Della Pasta
“…end of the world?”
The god-botherers are determined to make this bit come true!
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Poopy.
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@ nikkiee
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‘The god-botherers are determined to make this bit come true!’
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Which scares the eyepatch off me! You’ve seen the Rapture Index, have you?
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Here’s a parallel for you:
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September 11th. 3,000 innocent people die (give or take) in America. The western world shakes, mourns, and has to drag itself out of an all-too short post-cold-war feeling of safety. Meanwhile, in various localities elsewhere in the world, massed groups of civilians – many of whom have never committed a violent act in their life – celebrate this blow against the oppressor, or the infidel, as fair and just.
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Today, tomorrow, yesterday – any day around now – in America. Thousands, perhaps millions, of people confidently expect an event in which billions will die in terror and violence, in sudden flames, in agony. The victims will not expect it, they will not understand it as it happens, and they will be consigned to an eternity of empty, cold, loveless, lonely horror. Among these thousands or millions of Americans – many of whom have never committed a violent acti in their lives – some actively look forward to this day, when the sinner, or the infidel, will get his/her just deserts.
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To these people I say: I don’t care how much faith you have. I don’t care how true you think it is. I don’t care what Right to Believe you think you have. I have an issue with you, and so do the vast majority of people on earth. I don’t want you anymore. I don’t trust you, I am terrified of you and I am appalled by you. You threaten the rest of us with your preposterous, poisonous nonsense. If your god wants you, go to him. Get off our planet.
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[Deep breath.] In the mean time, please keep thinking, and be nice to each other!
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RAmen
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(I hope I haven’t wrecked my Nice Pirate image with that last post. I’m a patient, sympathetic enough sort, really. Just sometimes, you know, when you see what Faith can do, and you see how the Faithful storm off our forums in a fit of self-defeating nonsense to go and carry on spreading Faith to the vulnerable…
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Like any animal, I guess I bite when I’m threatened.)
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AAAAAAARRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
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Now I feel better.
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(@ Nikkiee, again,
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You know none of that was actually *at* you, of course, don’t you…? I get where you’re coming from, and I’m glad we’re on the same side. Keep up the good work!)
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sorry to add more to this, but if it hasn’t already been said
1) all scientific facts are theories
2) the earth rotating aroung the sun is a theory, backed up by a LOT of evidence
3) if you reject evolution for being a theory, you also must reject 2)
do you reject 2) ?
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Thanks J
“I’m a patient, sympathetic enough sort, really.”
I think everyone who reads the threads (and your posts) is aware of that.
I think that the wars initiated by fanatic cults (of any religion), which is what it boils down to, are the most frightning thing that this world has to deal with.
They would have us revert to ancient times, the time depending on the particular religion. They all seemed to be addicted to some type of natureally induced physcological drug. Worse than any horror movie I’ve ever seen.
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mark
It’s no good. They’ve all got their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears. If they haven’t, then after they read something like that they’ll run off to the nearest bible worship building.
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Mark,
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I hate to do this, because I may seem to be arguing against my own position here, but…:
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‘3) if you reject evolution for being a theory, you also must reject 2)
do you reject 2) ?’
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…that doesn’t follow. Every theory stands on its own evidence. If I found evidence that contradicted evolutionary theory, I could combat that theory whilst leaving ‘earth rotating around the sun’ theory perfectly intact.
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I know that you and I both understand this. But the theists we’re trying to convince will grasp any gaps in our arguments as an opportunity to attack. Which doesn’t make them right, but it does waste a lot of our time in having to go back and fill in details to put them straight!
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Like Hamlet said:
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‘How absolute the knave is. We must speak by the card or else equivocation will undo us.’
(Hamlet, V.i.133-5ish)
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Give ‘em something that even sounds like an inch, and they’ll take a light year.
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@ Nikkiee,
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‘They all seemed to be addicted to some type of natureally induced physcological drug.’
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That strikes me as a really, really good comparison. I think filling the God Shaped Hole with a God Shaped Invention is like taking a drug. You can be presented with all the good sense in the world to oppose it, and giving it up will still be a wrench.
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Maybe neurotransmitters involved in hypnotic suggestion? Not all people are susceptable to stimulation of these. Would be interesting to find out how many of the fanatics are.
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uhm, yeah…..
Wow…..
Let’s all attack the Christian Guy!
Joking.
Didn’t he specifically say that he wasn’t here to start a fight?
Why do Christians and Athiests have to fight so darn much?
Can’t we all just be agnostic and live happily ever after, until we die, at which point we will either go to hell or stop existing altogether? Sounds like a fun ride to me…..
Evolution, Creationism, Inteligent Design, God, and even Flying Spaghetti Monster are all completely viable theories.
In my highschool, evolution is taught as a theory: “This is what we think MIGHT have happened…..”
I don’t mind it. I wouldn’t mind having ID taught, as well.
I would, personally, greatly enjoy a Religion Studies course at highschool. I want to learn about the Quaran, The Torrah(sp?), and the Bible in an elective class. What’s wrong with giving students the option (and the opportunity) to be informed, if they so choose?
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“It is wrong that evolution, classified as SCIENTIFIC THEORY, is taught as a fact.”
That’s a good one. Evolution is sure taught as fact, except that then it would have been classified as SCIENTIFIC FACT. Theories are used to explain the facts. If we were certain about evolution, we would call it the only true explanation, but since we don’t yet have all the pieces of the puzzle, evolution is our best explanation, or THEORY.
In this way ID cannot even be called a theory because it has no bases in fact. That is the reason that ID should not be taught in schools, not that we disagree with the concept, but simply because it cannot be considered an explanation because it does not have a root in scientific facts.
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Evolution is a fact. There is plenty of evidence for changes in species over time.
Darwin’s theory explains the facts.
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Okay. I believe that ID is just a way for the Christian/Catholic/whatever Church to go against the theory of Evolution. I understand that they are kinda trying to level the playing field. I think it’s bullshit to try and put it into science class. “Why?”, you ask? Well this is why:
Schools are government buildings, correct? (Public schools I mean, I’m not talking about private institutions).
Anyone ever heard of separation between Church and State?
Church = religion. That includes any form. That includes creationism, ID (because let’s face it, everyone even the religious people, realize that ID is just a mask for creationism), anything taught from judaism, buddhism, islam, etc.
And yes I realize that in English classes, it is necessary to refer to the texts of these religions, but only to acknowledge them as literature and not in the religious sense.
So my question is, how come they just can’t accept the fact that Intelligent Design, is just a mask for creationism and it is no more science than the idea of reincarnation or the idea of a soul? It is all based on Faith. Not science.
(forgive the bad grammar)
All hail the noodley appendages.
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I’ve had a thought, if the bible say that gravity was caused by invisible demons pulling everything down the we would be talking about gravity in the same way as we talk about evolution now.
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A few issues ago Free Inquiry, or was it Skeptical Inquirer, had a couple of good articles on the Dover trial, one by a direct decendent of C Darin who was present at the trials, and another that summarized the decision, which declared ID was creationism masquarading as science. Critical evidence in this case was early drafts of that “Of Pandas…” book that was being pitched as a science book supporting ID, but in the early drafts it was all about creationism. References to creationsim had been changed to ID. I think the ID folks were lucky they weren’t charged with perjury.
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@ Lamna – Nice idea! Sadly, you are not alone in coming up with it:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_falling
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@ Mike – that’s an interesting story! I’d love to see that article.
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@ Cody,
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Wow, I’d love it if we were all as open minded as you! If we all shared your attitude, then you’re absolutely right – there’d be nothing wrong with the existing religions.
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Thing is, people don’t just *learn* about religions – they *believe* them. And religions are not just interesting stories. They are sets of laws, moral codes and even prescibed punishments.
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They are not simply taught even-handedly in the same way as other academic subjects. They are repeated by rote to children, so that those children grow up with a belief system founded entirely on a religion held by their parents or religious leaders.
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And these belief systems tell people who is right and who is wrong, who is righteous and who is sinful, who will be condemned and who will be blessed.
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It sounds like you haven’t been indoctrinated in this way. Good for you! But it’s a plain and obvious fact that many people have been. And many others enter into a total belief shared by the people around them.
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How comfortable are you that the world around you contains millions of people whose morals, whose behavioural principles, are based on beliefs in gods that you don’t believe in? Gods who cannot be proven? Gods who contradict our best attempts to understand our world? Gods who tell them that you are not among the reighteous, because you don’t believe as they do? Should such people have positions of responsibility that affect you? Is that fair?
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Atheists are motivated to fight theists because all of this worries them profoundly. Theists are motivated to fight atheists because they truly believe in their gods, believe that atheists are sinful in their godlessness, and do not wish to have their belief systems threatened by something as trifling as reason.
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@ nikkiee,
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Good idea! Would be very interesting indeed.
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(By the way, a question for people who might be more tech-savvy than me. I stuck several posts on the ‘for my part, my christian beliefs’ thread earlier today. The third of them appeared with the message ‘Your comment is awaiting moderation’ after it, in a friendly yellow band. It’s still there now. Has anyone else had this? Have I foolishly said something that could offend the FSM? May I be keel hauled if I’ve done so foul a deed! RAmen.)
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I have J. I think it eventually comes up. Aussie suggested that I change one, or a couple of letters/punctuation and retry (copy/paste). It worked. Hours later my original came up as well. Beats me?
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BTW That particular post of mine was tame!
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@J
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I’m looking for the articles. I can’t find them on the CSICOP or CSH web sites, so I may make a trip to the library.
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Cody,
I say this every time I have the opportunity, because I believe it so emphatically. I agree with you that it is good to teach religion in high school. I have no problem with that, as long as no one religion is presented as the True One, and as long as religion is not taught as science. It might be beneficial for our society for more people to learn about a variety of religions other than their own. It might help with some of the intolerance that is rampant in a country where “religious freedom” is supposed to be a right.
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“Everybody hates Christians…” well we wouldn’t if they didn’t go against scientific facts. You say that most Christians don’t go pushing their religion yet here you are.
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Evolution is not a fact. Evolution is our name for an observable natural phenomenon, as well as a theory to explain the causes behind this phenomenon.
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@J
I think this is the article RE the dover decision I referred to: