Please do not take any offensive “hate mail” written by Christians as an example of Christianity. We are not very good Christians; we who use words of hate. You must understand, however, that you have completely pissed us off. This site is just stupid. The concept is stupid. I can give you evidence against evolution if you so desire.
I do sort of agree that ID should not be taught in schools, but neither should evolution. It is wrong that evolution, classified as SCIENTIFIC THEORY, is taught as a fact. Teaching evolution in schools is just as offensive to us as teaching ID in schools is to you. We are all people.
The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else. The same cannot be said for scientists, it appears. Plus, while Christians want to bring wayward people to God for the wayward people’s sake, scientists want to study and elaborate on evolution because they think they can discover something wonderful and get rich off of it. So, there is still a difference between the two sides.
I think this whole fight is futile. It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…
-Yet Another Christian
I was just looking through a few websites and found the below, I think all good atheists should at least consider the following.
* unsettle the faith of anyone you can.
* foster reason, critical thinking and self-esteem in children.
* promote the taxation of churches.
* promote feminism and access to abortion and contraception.
* promote separation of church and state.
* fight creationism and coercive religion in public life.
* promote human rights for all.
* eliminate blasphemy from the criminal code.
* avoid charities that waste money on religious indoctrination.
* study real biblical criticism and actual ancient history.
* study clear thinking.
* Read books by Richard Dawkins, Stephen Jay Gould,
Marvin Harris, Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Robert
Ingersoll, and many more.
* Subscribe to Freethought Today, Skeptical Inquirer,
Free Inquiry, Humanist in Canada, The Humanist, and
many more, (see Atheism resources FAQ).
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I’m a Christian, and I’m ordained. I enjoy what you are doing here. I believe God has a sense of humor. some people just don’t have a clue though. I enjoy stopping here sometimes:)
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–Everybody also apparently hates
Humanists, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witness’s etc. Does this mean that everybody who is hated is going to heaven?–
–Does this mean that because Everybody Loves Raymond he is going to hell?–
Hey thick limey! This may be the best logic observation I have ever come across. I wish I could think like you do. I tried, but my head started to hurt and I smelled smo…smo…smo…ah fuckit- dark, chokey clouds.–
–” I love christians ” says the lion.
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Blasphemy is not possible. Why would God if almighty care about a joke by some insect being. And if God is so powerful, why would God need defending of God’s position. Some people have the effrontery to claim that they know what God wants and that they are on God’s side. Very funny!
Jihadists of all stripes loosen up. If your God is petulant, humorless and petty and anthropomorphic in the worst possible ways by assuming the persona of contemptible and dictatorial persons, keep him. Stop preaching to me.
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Chunkylimey (and anyone else),
A few points for you to consider:
(to be taken with a pinch of salt and a shot of tequila…)
1) (And, undoubtedly, most controversial) People aren’t allowed to hate muslims. You’re allowed to hate christians, mormons, jehovah’s witnessess et al (even hindus, sikhs and buddhists, so long as you can prove you’re not being racist), but not muslims. Something to do with holy war or whatnot, and if it’s not holy war, it’s because you’re stereotyping muslims as the kind of people who would go to holy war, and that’s bad too.***
The only other people-group that get so much protection are the Jews, and that’s only because people figure non-jews have given them enough flack over the past 150 years…
2) Not if God loves Raymond too…
3) Not deserts… you need to find a good solid mountain. *Looks for flights to “Mount Zion”*
(now to the serious points)
4) Jesus never said anything about practising your faith in private, more along the lines of boasting about how godly you are. He was/is against people shouting their “Oh God, I’m so great” prayers and making people around them feel inadequate. Jesus throwing tables across the temple and screaming at the eejots to go swindle someone else, that’s hardly practising your faith in private now, is it?
5) Don’t know why you’re blaming Paul for evangelists. It was Jesus who said the whole “Go out and make disciples of all the peeps in the world…” speech. He also sent out the first door-to-door evangelism group.
6) Can you not surrender yourself to God while involved in politics? Ok, I’ll grant you it’s fairly unusual… God says nothing about separating faith and the society – God even had a go at setting up his own state politics system (Israel). That failed cos the head ponchos forgot to surrender themselves to God…
7) (well, I can’t very well have 6 points now, can I?) Some people have a really screwed up view of Christ and Christians and Christianity and Christmas and the like. And, to be fair, from outside the system (and sometimes even from inside the system) Christianity can _seem_ like a weird religion full of weird people that are either obsessed by numbers, condemning everyone, hugging everyone, predicting impending doom or just falling to the floor shaking a bit.
But.
Jesus has a lot of cool stuff to say. Read a gospel. Bombard a Christian with questions. Don’t throw the whole thing out just because some people screw up the PR. Christianity should not be a religion or a set of traditions, but a shared passion for the true God. You just have to find Him first.
Right. That’s enough seriousness for one night. I’m off to bathe in a sea of pickled mushrooms, and watch the hippos fly across the midday sky.
*** (apologies if this causes offence to any muslims reading this. These views, as well as any others in this post, are not the views of his noodlyness or any of his minions, followers or attachés, nor are they the pope’s, nor are they the views of anyone in government or politics or America, or even anyone who’s been dead for at least 500 years…)
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One nation, under God….
Does that imply that God is having relations with America?
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i think this is absolutely hilarious that so many people get so caught up in this like what they say is going to change the way things really are honestly think for a moment that undisputable evidence is brought forward that all your beliefs are wrong… cant do it? well maybe its because your stubborn and have blinded yourself from open thought. i mean i can see how the ignorant find some comfort in a jolly guy named (w/e for a non specific religious standpoint) but seriously now if your faith was proven wrong like god himself came down and said well this is wrong umm i didnt make these commandments and o yea you misinterpreted the second coming of christ as a person where it really is just discovering everything possible scientifically and finding truth so all humanity can come together as one… if you got a problem with that i say your blind and flat out stupid… i appologise for my blunt wording but this is really surprising to me that so many people think its noble to have blind faith and shut out everything else to the point that they would miss jesus if he had lunch right next to them… all im saying is openness is a damn good thing. people go to war over faith but never over flexible ideas.
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Undecided–blah, try 1500 years. Or more. Anyways, my actual point: I’ll be the first to agree that Christans CAN get an undeserved rap because not ALL of them are crazy fundis. But. Saying things like “a shared passion for the *true God.*” tend to make people raise their eyebrows a tad. I’m not excusing the steryotype, just pointing out that it’s not entirely unfounded. As for the issue with the Muslims…..eh, chalk it up to politcal correctness, I guess? At least in America, if you go around saying all Muslims are horrible people you’re gonna get flack for it…but I’ve seen people get flac for saying the same things about Christians, so. Frankly, I don’t see what’s wrong with saying that some Muslims are bad people…..some Christians are too, as well as some Jews, some Hindus…some every other religion known to man…
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i think this is absolutely hilarious that so many people get so caught up in this like what they say is going to change the way things really are. honestly think for a moment that undisputable evidence is brought forward that all your beliefs are wrong… cant do it? well maybe its because you’re stubborn and have blinded yourself from open thought. i mean i can see how the ignorant find some comfort in a jolly guy named (w/e for a non specific religious standpoint) but seriously now if your faith was proven wrong like god himself came down and said, ‘well this is wrong umm i didnt make these commandments and o yea you misinterpreted the second coming of christ as a person where it really is just discovering everything possible scientifically and finding truth so all humanity can come together as one’… if you got a problem with that i say your blind and flat out stupid… i appologise for my blunt wording but this is really surprising to me that so many people think its noble to have blind faith and shut out everything else to the point that they would miss jesus if he had lunch right next to them… all im saying is openness is a damn good thing. people go to war over faith but never over flexible ideas.
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Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Please shut up until you know your own Holy Book better.
Jesus DID tell you to keep your faith private. Take JESUS’s advise and go into your closet and stay there. Of course Jesus DID contradict himself but that is hardly suprising for a poorly edited book like the Bible. The proof reader and the editor must have been morons.
I have read the Gospels by the way which is why I’m not a Christian because I can tell you just how full of crap they are.
if you are struggling to see it more clearly here’s a handy tool for you
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm
Now when you truly see the light, put on your pirate costume and come worship the true lord his great noodly masterfulness.
PS Don’t try and pick a fight with an Atheist who has a degree in Theology, I know every stupid part of your dumb Christian faith better than 99% of the poor delusionals who follow the moronic faith.
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just making a joke on what chunkylimey said…. so you saying christians need to come out of the closet? lol
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I honestly do not understand why people hold onto the creation myth so dearly. Do you not realize that the literal meanings in the Bible were written by people who believed the Earth was flat and rarely lived past 30? I’d be pretty short-sighted too if I could see both my own demise and (seemingly) the end of the world. Much like the idea of the stork, creationism is a way to placate minds unable to grasp larger, more nuanced truths.
And if creation were true, doesn’t it seem funny that all this fuss would go into the equivalent of less than a tick’s bite mark on the body of the entire universe? Oh wait, I guess space exploration and astrophysics is more heresy brought on by the evil “scientists.” Since the Earth is the center of everything, I suppose the universe is nothing more than a fancy blanket this all powerful creator placed over our heads.
Under which you will NEVER get laid.
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Read David Humes Dialogues concerning natural religion. mind you he wrote this book about a hundred years before Darwin. Many people consider Hume to really set the stage for modern athiesm (spaghettimonsterism) and to put the nails in william paileys coffin.
Particularly the part that says even if one could deduce that there is a creator (which is very very doubtful) then what kind of creator was it? In other words, even if evolution is wrong (which most evidence suggests it is not) and we need a designer to account for the world, then the creator could be anything. We can not go from, we need a creator to explain the world to- oh look, the bible is true praise jesus. Perhaps the creator is imperfect, polytheistic, a woman, evil, or even non eternal.
Furthermore, when one looks at the world what type of things do we see? I do not see the 3o god working on things. I see matter interacting with matter and certain physical laws. This is what Hume thought and therefore Hume concluded that us and the world came into existence from, “animal vegetation” (I may have screwed up the exact quote). What he means by this is that we do not see the finger of god moving and creating things. Rather we see things developing like vegetables. Things just function according to their innate states- like a vegetable developes from innate powers or states. The universe acts and reacts according to fundamental laws. We see no god. Therefore, the universe must have been created by fundamental laws (that is all we see damn it!) Even if evolution proves false, we still dont see god. There may be a different mechanism unknown to us, and we may or may not discover it (adding a bit to Hume here).
Lastly, why is it more probable that an all powerfull being existed for ever with certain powers rather than matter? In other words, if god can exist forever and have all these powers, why cant matter? Furthermore, if design needs a designer then who designed god, and who designed the designer that designed him- ad infinitum. Once again, why is it more plausable that order (design) can only come from a being rather than innate matter? Why doesnt god need a designer but matter does? Seriously, I want someone to give me a good reason why this is the case.
Hume was once asked, how did humans come about if there was no god to bring it about. he replied that matter somehow worked itself out. That is all we see is matter interacting with matter. It is easy to see the forces of nature void of any god like presence. It is not so easy to see the god of the bible.
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Annie,
I think you are mistaken about people in the bible rarely living past 30. Adam lived for 900 years and Noah 700.
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Now for evolution
Im a philosophy student so I do not know that much about evolution. I have read the origin of species and Darwins main argument in favor if evolution comes from micro evolution or selective breeding. He talks a lot about how pigeons can be selectively breed to bring out certain traits and over time a parent species can become quite different than its offspring. Over millions of years the change can become even greater.
Natural selection is the mechanism that changes one species into another. Not every offspring from a given animal can live. There is variation between offspring. Therefore, the offspring that has traits will survive better and pass these traits on to there offspring which will then create more variation. Over millions of years species will change quite drastically.
The fossil record indicates that animals have become more complex over earths history. Many animals have gone extinct due to their in-ability to survive (educate yourself, extinction was a big problem for creationists during Darwin’s day). Furthermore, we now know through DNA that many animals are related and share many physiological structures.
What would prove evolution wrong- if something was irreducibly complex. This means that if there is a biological structure in an organism that can not be built piece by piece and every piece serves a function- then evolution is wrong. This is not the case, dont appeal to Flagellum, it is not irreducibly complex. There are probobly other things but this is what id’s appeal to most and it is simply false. It has been shown that building up to the flagellums tail, every stage in its development serves a purpose. it has been proven in a lab. Read up on this topic for yourself.
Other ids appeal to the fact that pure chance and randomness can not create this complexity. This is false. Evolution is not random and it is not chance, not in every respect. The fact is (once again im a philosophy major) biological orgainisms operate according to strict rules and a strict system. This system is not random, rather this system is set up in such a way as to ensure that species change and keep those changes in a very systematic and rigorous way. It is not chance. This system relys on the fundamental laws of chemistry and physics- which are clearly not random.
Not so fast, read my last post. Why is it more logical that the christian god (lets face it it is just a plausible that the flying spaghetti monster exists- raamen) existed forever and gives structure rather than matter. If matter needs a design then why doesnt god. Yet another way to put it, it is just as reasonable to conclude that god exists forever and gives order to things as it is to conclude that matter exists forever and gives order to things.
What proves god wrong? nothing. However, nothing really proves him right either. Prayers dont work, we dont see him in our daily experience, and we simply have not experienced his existence in any fundamental way. The voices in your head are shared by all, so if the voices in your head is evidence for god then i guess its also evidence for many other gods as well. All we really see and experience is matter interacting with matter.
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Hey rat, dont believe everything you read in the bible. Is living to 700 biologically possible even if there were no disease or pollution and with a perfect diet? come on.
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Euthyphro,
I don’t actually believe that anyone lived to 700 – infact I don’t think anyone actually lived past 30ish! I am a practising Pastafarian!
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I am long winded tonight. Lets face it, Christians do not believe in god and intelligent design due to evidence or logical conclusions. Christians believe in god and ID because they are too afraid to live in a universe in which no all powerful being can enter their very soul and cradle them at night. It is kind of sad if you think about it. They rely on this belief to get them through the day and many of them would crumble without it. I normally would not want to take a world view such as this away from a person. However, when these people start pushing their religious (not rationally based, rather emotively based disquised as rational) agenda onto social policy then it is time to take the babies bottle away!
You see this all the time. Certain Christians will claim that a certain state of affairs should not be. They come to this conclusion from their pathetic notions of sin or blasphemy as it is described in the bible, no matter how rediculus it is. Then they try to spread their views rationally and it simply does not work. Their views are emotive not rational.
For example, they try to say that gay marriage will allow beasteality and the like- which is bull crap. What they really mean is “god said it is a sin”. Since they really believe in this god being, via prayer orgasms, then it must be wrong. They just dont sell it to us as some primitive notion of sin- they make pathetic attempts to rationalize it. The same goes for evolution. Evolution is blashpemic and therefore must be a sin- “lets try to put this in a rational form now so its more marketable.”
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My bad Rat
Raamen
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“It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…”
Jews… Wiccans… Druids… Shamans… Gays… Ethnic Minorities…
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Evolution is still a theory and by its nature can’t be proven because it takes so long. the laws of thermodynamics can’t be proven either, but no one goes around saying they’re not true, and anyone who says they’ve broken one, usually the second law, is quickly proven wrong.
Creationists try to use the second law by saying that evolution implies a build up of complexity, a reduction in entropy, going against the second law, this is only true for a completely closed system, the only completely closed system there is is the universe. Inside said closed system, there can be a reduction in entropy in one subsystem as long as there is a greater increase in entropy in another subsystem giving a nett increase in entropy.
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This bit about people living to 700-900 years old in the Bible.
Consider the following, the people refered to lived as nomads. Nomads seldom (even today) reckon time after the sun.
They use the moon because keeping track of the sun has no meaning unless you stay long enough in one place to observe it.
900/12=75 I consider living for 900 moons to be much more belivable…and at that time 75 years was a VERY long life.
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GEEEEYYAAAAH! I can’t believe I let myself read that…
I’ll try to make this quick and painless:
“I can give you evidence against evolution if you so desire.”
Please do, I am waiting.
“I do sort of agree that ID should not be taught in schools”
Thanks, but… hang on… sort of? You don’t sound like you believe that 100%
“but neither should evolution. It is wrong that evolution, classified as SCIENTIFIC THEORY, is taught as a fact.”
Ah… THERE we go… it was a lead into your real point. Hmm no, where is it stated to be fact? Where can you quote (school curriculum worldwide, that is going to take some ersearching good luck with that) that children are being told that science is FACT?
“Teaching evolution in schools is just as offensive to us as teaching ID in schools is to you. We are all people.”
Aww the shame… here have a hankie. I was given religion at school (I’d rather have not), one religion. Now kids get told about many, (here in Scotland anyway, apparently our Education system is rather good) altogether more fair and open minded (unlike you), why should FSM not get a mention?
“The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else.”
OK so why are you here?
“The same cannot be said for scientists, it appears.”
I think you will find scientist DO NOT GO ROUND KNOCKING ON PEOPLE’S DOORS! They preset their findings in papers and books for people who chose to read them.
“Plus, while Christians want to bring wayward people to God for the wayward people’s sake, scientists want to study and elaborate on evolution because they think they can discover something wonderful and get rich off of it.”
OK my brain starts to beat my eyeballs here… You PERCEIVE yourself up on this lofty high ground bringing people to god for their sake. WHO ARE YOU to decide what is good for people? Meet me face to face and see what happend when you tell me what is good for me (hint: it involves me laughing and then going for a beer, beer must be good for me or god wouldn’t have created it right? Jesus liked the odd wine after all)
Next sudy and elabourate – can the same be said for the bible? how much elabouration has been done on this?
Discover something wonderful. Yes they regularly do. It’s called knowledge, try it some time. Get rich off it? Jeez let’s see, hmm sister and wife both have PhDs are they rich? Hmmm nope.
“So, there is still a difference between the two sides.”
Still? There always will be. You make “sides” go ahead, I’ll sit here and watch.
“We are all people.”
But not all on the same side by your own admission…
“I think this whole fight is futile.”
Thanks for this. Your opinion is duly noted and then thoroughly mocked ridiculed and spat upon. I suppose if someone said “Hey moses, I think this fight is totally futile” moses would’ve said, “ah crap, you know what? you’re right, let’s just stay slaves, I like oppression me”? Man your arrogance reeks so bad I can smell it here…
“It is written that God’s children will be hated by all, and I can see that’s the way it’s going. Everybody hates Christians…”
So first you make “sides” then go on to claim yours is hated by all and therefore on the defensive and therefore righteous. News for you sunshine, a lot of people hate a lot of things, doesn’t make those things “right” nor should it bother them at all…
Now since I have responded to your post (which obviously wanted responses) please be so kind to respond to mine or I shall dismiss you as casually as you posted here.
Finally just as an aside someone sent me this from the BBC website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6083468.stm
Pelican eats pigeon. Way to go pelican, too many of the damn things and they crap on my car…
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dammit that took rather longer than I hoped…
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Dammit and I forgot this bit:
“Please do not take any offensive “hate mail†written by Christians as an example of Christianity.”
Sorry, I’m afraid I have to accept your first answer. And I’m afraid I have to say I *will* take whatever I like to be an example of Christianity. You do not have a vetting process for followers so you have those that claim to be Christian that are – unfortunately – complete morons.
It seems to me to be a pastafarian you only need to have an open mind and more than one braincell.
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OMG… Despite my general disdain of L337speek, I am afraid that awesome pelican article can have only one reply.
.
ROFLMAO
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SSorry, msnspeak…
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I am lucky that I have the ability to choose my beliefs/religion. I have taken a long look at the different teachings, and I have some questions…
I think that ‘theatans” as alien spirits that inhabit (possibly) my body, may not make sense, so I don’t know if Scientology is right for me. But so many people believe it…
Then, when John Smith read from the gold thing-a-ma-doos, I didn’t buy that either.
Then there are the 40 virgins, hmm, that one almost had me. All I had to do was die in battle fighting the infidels, then the hot babes would be mine! Then I thought “how can I tell my buds that I scored with 40 virgins if I was dead?” No good. Jesus died for me, OK! Here’s a guy that must really like me! He died for me, he told us about the wonderful God in heaven, who slaughters people, and sends disease, and wants sacrifices, and wants us to sing to him, and worship him, and give our money to churches that support priests who molest children, and fear him and love him, and obey him and fear him and fear him and fear him. But, apparently he loves us, whether or not we love him. He loves us so much that he will not allow us into heaven if we don’t believe in him. He will make sure we burn in hell with all the muslims, and scientologists, and mormans, and buddhists, and on and on and on.
Then we have the FSM. Tolerance, logic, fun, BEER VOLCANOES are the basis of it’s faith. I don’t even think FSM would hate me if I didn’t believe. Wow! The world is such a big place when I take the time to look at it with clarity. Poor Christians… So convinced they are right, so afraid to be wrong. (and apparently as easily pissed off as muslims)
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RAmen
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Rolls On Floor with chairman MAO?
Is that why he’s always so glum? His Ass has fallen Off?
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BUT, maybe being a christian wouldn’t be all bad? It does have some perks…
I can tell other people what is right and wrong! I would have the final say in all things Godly…I could say things like “I pitty you”, and “Jesus saves” and “Repent!”, and “that is stupid”.
I can blame others for our misery! “morality has lapsed! Homosexuals and liberals have taken over our culture! That is why we are having hurricanes, and AIDS; because GOD is angry!
I can use my beliefs to gain political power! I can preach to my brothers and sisters and influence their votes, to get politicians elected who say things like “Evil”, and “heavenly father”, and “faith”. Apparently God is not all powerful though. If he was, then I would feel safe and secure in my faith. Knowing that God loved me and would provide for me. BUT, since he is not all powerful, he tells us to elect even more powerful men, politician-type men, who will do God’s, and our work here on earth.
I could have my own magazine, and lots of TV shows. All dedicated to spreading my faith, and excluding yours (because I get to decide what is right and wrong; see top of page).
I could call for the assassination of world leaders!
I could make whoopie with prostitutes, with married men and women, and children!
I could scare the hell into you at church, then go home and tug the trout to some kiddie nakedness on the computer, all with a clear conscience, because God forgives my tresspasses.
I could start a war.
I could decide if others have babies or not……………..
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Just watched the vid of creationism, wow, and the comment about bj’s, class.
Reminded me of this guy
Bill Hicks (RIP) on Evolution:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSH6ofHbeUw
He would love FSM…
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Let’s say that when a man dies, his remains are laid upon the ground, or just under it’s surface. Let’s work back to the first man who walked the earth. We’ll call him ‘Adam’. Adam lives a full, rich life, and dies in his 30’s. Remember, he is our theoretic first man. His body falls to the ground. 2000 years later, an acheologist digs up Adam, identified by the rib we were told was missing. Underneath Adam, oh, several meters down, is a skeleton of a little birdie. We can KNOW that the birdie was there first, it’s little body having hit the ground long enough before Adam that it’s little carcas was covered over by several meters of earth. Mind you, no man existed before Adam, and no birdies I know can use shovels. When Adam laid upon the ground, he disproved creationism. Since God created heaven and earth, and created man to live upon the earth amongst all of his creatures, how did the little birdie exist before god created him? Maybe God came to earth and used his golden shovel (same one christians eat from) and burried the carcas to confuse us? Maybe when all the dinosaurs died, they agreed to arrange themself in the stratta of soil and rock according to assignment by God’s decree?
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I would like to say that evolution actually has reason to be taught in the classroom.
There is infinitely more evidence that supports it that ID. First off logic, simply think about ID. Does it make sense that the world was created by a supernatural force and is unchanging? no. If so, explain resistant strains and how they are caused to me? i would like to know ID’s response to that, it seems to be avoided. You can also OBSERVE mutations. You can see that DNA mutates, its apparent in our everyday world. If DNA was exactly the same every a cell splits, there would be no variation in the world. That being the case, it logically follows that species will change over time, no? And would the species with the beneficial mutations not reproduce more than those than those without the beneficial mutations? I have yet to see a logical argument supporting ID on this site other than “OMGGG!!! ID IS REAL BECUZ JESUS CREATED TEH WORLD AND EVRYTHING!” (i apologize to the christians who do not speak like this, but the vast majority of hate-mails and posts are caps lock happy 10 year olds). And do NOT try to seperate ID from christianity. it doesnt work. teaching ID in the schools is the same as teaching a revised book of genesis in the schools, whereas teaching evolution is teaching a logical theory based on tangible things in this world. In conclusion, i would like to remind everyone that evolution has led science to other discoveries, and simply taking it out and disregarding it is stupidity. A main thing is science is that it is supposed to be SEPERATE from religion, lets keep it that way. Otherwise, teach FSMism (its not based on religion, is it? no more than ID is on the book of genesis, at least), or just dont teach anything at all. And most sane people would agree, both of those options are not very appealing.
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Wow. Rich Scientists. That’s a thought. That’s why my professors walk to class because they can’t afford a car. Because they are pushing evolution at people and waiting to strike it rich. Not because they are saving up for an education for their children while trying to help the environment. I didn’t know.
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hehe some people just don’t realize the definition of a theory…
a theory is just a statement that uses logic and observations to best describe a pattern of events.
a theory is NOT a crackpot explanation by aparent nutcases.
everything considered to be scientific fact today are just theories yet to be disproved. examples: theory of electricity, gravity, relativity (yes, they have proved relativity).
i’d suggest everyone read the definition of “theory” before giving the statement “evolution is just a theory, it’s not fact, therefore it shouldn’t be taught” for a reason of not teaching evolution.
signed, *a warrior for logic*
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and also, evolution is the only explanation that is based on science that explains the world. even if evolution is wrong (which i don’t think it is), it is still the foremost SCIENTIFIC theory of today. in the past, there have been many schools teaching incorrect information, simply because it was the foremost scientific observations. and i do not disapprove of this, since they were trying to be scientific.
however, if we allow just one explanation NOT based on science seep into the classroom, we must simply give other explanations their fair share too. there are many, many religions on earth, most of which have a different creation story. because of this, we must allow all of them to be taught if we allow one.
that is the point of this website, to attract attention to this point. this site is also here to politey point out that it would be highly difficult to teach our children hundreds of stories at once. along with the scientific theory.
by the way, it seems to me that evolution has enough evidence to be considered as much as a fact as gravity is a fact.
signed *a warrior for logic*
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I don’t think that everyone hates Christians.
Just the people who have been tortured, burned, drowned, or otherwise persecuted for not being Christian…
Most likely some of their descendants, or anyone who has ever been told they’re going to burn in hell for ever if they don’t cave in to the demands and exhortations of born-again-Christians (of many different Protestant sects)…
Probably anyone who has seen the disrimination of Christian leaders against other religions when certain of them ascend to political power and force citizens to accept their holy documents being placed in courthouses above all other documents…
And just maybe anyone who has had to suffer in silence at professional social events as Christians get together and proselytize loudly, condemning and insulting other people for failing to accept their God as “the one true God…” suffering silently because Christians have been known to beat, maim, and firebomb other people for refusing to cave in to their religion and they’re not stupid enough to take on zealots when outnumbered…
So not everyone hates Christians.
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The Mace, as my friend Darwin’s Monkey has stated before, Evolution is both a theory and a fact. It is an accepted fact “evolution: The gradual process by which the present diversity of plant and animal life arose from the earliest and most primitive organisms, which is believed to have been continuing for the past 3000 million years.”
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The theory of Evolution which is not fact (obviously by the term theory) is simply the method by which evolution occurs.
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Darwin never came up with the idea of evolution, it had been around for a very long time before him, but he gave a theory of how it could happen.
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Wow. Funny how Christians hate it when you lump them into one category but it’s okay for them to do it. My wayward soul doesn’t want to be saved by your righteous one just so you can die thinking “God” will let you into this “heaven” of his.
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to “nowtheworldhasmeaning…”
yay someone smart! =)
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Gravity is also known as “the theory of gravity”. It’s a scientific term. Some of them also call humans by the scientific name “Homo-sapien”. I promise they’re not calling you gay. (Calling things by the word “theory” goes along with the entire hypothesis system and all those other heretic inventions)
“The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else. The same cannot be said for scientists, it appears.”
Scientists aren’t pressing their beliefs upon you. The majority of the planet’s population is simply presenting their FACTS to you. You’re walking off a cliff screaming “gravity is a theory!” and those of us with a love for all human life are simply trying to stop you from hurting yourself and others.
And it’s ok to be spiritual and believe in evolution, and other “theories” which were proved centuries ago. The scientists aren’t a huge cult of demon worshippers or atheists just as christians aren’t all a rampaging hoard of crusaders here to slaughter the infidels.
(Which reminds me of an odd fact about the crusades. Christians shouldn’t defend the crusades as justice becuase more christians then muslims were killed by christians in the crusades.)
Oh and about evolution being unprovable. Besides all the mountains of scientific evidence: Dog breeding, samurai face crabs in japan, penicillin resistant bacteria, and insects that resist a hundred different kinds of poison farmers put on their fields. Think about each of these and do some research on google.
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“The majority of Christians do not want to press our beliefs upon anybody else.”
haha, stop lying.
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The face that it is called the “Theory of Evolution” (which it is in every place it’s taught) clearly insinuates that it is NOT a fact. It IS however, backed by strong scientific evidence. To say that evolution never happened isn’t correct.
To evolve is to change and adapt, and let’s face it, things are changing and adapting all around us. The Flu evolves every year. BUT! The real question is where did evolution begin? You cannot deny that evolution happened when it’s happening all around us today. However, what the debate really is about is whether God started the planet out and let it evolve or if the planet formed and evolved on its own. Everyone in here needs to do research so they know exactly what they’re arguing about.
ID is really backed by science, it’s not just the religious aspect, but the fact that the church is USING that to get religion into classrooms is wrong. I have no problem with teachers saying “It could either be science or it could be a higher power” as long as they have scientific evidence to back everything up. Hey, if they want to form an elective religion class, that’s great, but if the church wants their science taught in our science classes, then I think our science should be able to be taught in their churches.
As for the hate mail I’m supposed to be replying to, not everyone hates Christians, but let’s face it…the biggest screw-up in USA history (Bush) are Christian and constantly use their religion to gain them power. Damn right I’m going to judge you as soon as you start spouting your religious crap, because most of them are sexist, hypocritical hateful people.
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ND,
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ID is not backed by science because ID is not testable. Please explain to me how you test the hypothesis that something was intelligently designed. I’m curious to know.
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OEJ
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OEJ,
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I didn’t think it was either, but apparently scientists found this ancient micro-organism that has a tail, so they looked to see what makes this tail move, and there’s a motor-like thing in it’s body, and no one can find out where it came from. Some people said that perhaps it was a few things that evolved together, but no one can prove it. According to the scientists, during that time period where this organism comes from, there’s nothing for something like that to evolve from. I’m not sure if I believe it (like I said, there’s no proof either way), but the fact is that as of now, there’s no where for this motor to have come from, and the ID people base their beliefs on this.
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ND
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Chunkeylimey,
“Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Please shut up until you know your own Holy Book better. Jesus DID tell you to keep your faith private. Take JESUS’s advise and go into your closet and stay there.”
Ummm… ok. Is it only me that can read the first five words of that passage? Or did you get confused by the ye-olde language?
When you pray, pray in a closet. Prayer is part of practising your faith, prayer is not all there is to faith. Pray to the God who is in secret places.
And Gill, very true.
I would wade into this rather interesting debate on the merits of ID, but it really doesn’t matter all that much. I worry that people get so heated about this… sorry to say this, but at times both sides look like they have something they need to prove. Is the theory of Evolution that useful to you? None of the humans reading this forum were there when God / The Big Bang / His Noodly Appendage / [insert own theory here] started the ball rolling anyway, so why do people think their theory is so much more important?
(Apologies if this sounds like something one of those weirdo-christians spout all the time) Personally, I’m gonna wait ’til God explains it to me. And, well, if I’m wrong about it all, I’ll be dead anyway so it won’t matter.
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Hey ND, its called a flagellum. And in my post on evolution I point out that this orgainsim is not irreducibly complex (learn this term). That is every stage in its development serves a purpose. Evolution can explain its existence just fine. Scientists have proved that earlier developments of the flagellums tail served a function. Once again its called a flagellum- read about it.
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Undecided,
you make an interesting argument. However, what you are essentially saying is that you have no idea what is going on or you have no idea whether or not there is a god. Am I presenting your view correctly? Thats cool if that is your view. However, I have to ask you, what do you really believe? That is it seems that you do believe in a type of god. Is this belief based upon evidence or is it just a wish? If it is based upon evidence, that is you lean toward the idea of there being a god due to some reason, then I wonder what that evidence or reason for it is? If you belive it just because it makes you feel good, then at least you are not deluded.
Personally, I lean toward there not being a god. There may be one, but I dont think there is. The reason I hold this view is because I see no evidence for one. Note that there are many different interpretations of what god is- but I think you kno what i mean.
Furthermore, the reason why some of us get so heated is because ones world view (metaphysical view- any philosophy majors around here?) reflects how one acts. It seems to me that certain religios views are acting in poor ways. Ie: stem cell research, euthenasia, abortion, gay marriage and of course evolution being taught in class rooms. Personally I feel that man should strive to know and teach the truth of things. And to me it seems that sin, jesus, and the christian god is destructive to the truth and society- it is a dangerous lie.
I wish that mankind could move out of its superstitious past and act according to reason and science. Evolution may not be the most sound argument, but it is a hell of a lot closer than any theology is. Furthermore, certain moral decisions in this country should be based upon sound reasoning and evidence rather than appeals to sin and religion. This is why I fight the battle that I do. “If ignorance is bliss than whipe the smile off my face” – Rage Against the Machine
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One more thing Undecided, Please read my last post on David Hume and ask yourself this question. “What do i really see in my daily experience, god or the impersonal forces of nature?”
It is true that non of us was around during the big bang. And it is true that non of us can really know if there is a god or not. However, we can draw logical conclusions based upon what we experience in our daily lives. If all that we see and experience is matter interacting with matter then what should we conclude is the author of the universe- An all powerful being!
It may be true that an all powreful super being exists, but why should any of us believe it?
The reason evolution is the better explaination is becasue it does have sound evidence and it deals with what we experience in our daily lives- just the forces of nature. There is absolutely no evidence for god (appealing to the fact that evolution may be wrong does not provide evidence for god- there may be another method we are not aware of) and we do not experience god in our daily activities.
The whole point of this website is that if one is going to believe something without evidence, then we might as well believe in the flying spaghetti monster.
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