If you are right, and evolution is the only answer, then we will all just be dirt-food when we die. But if you are wrong, and the intelligent design people are right and there is a God, then you’ll be in a tough spot.
By the way, did you ever read what the Kansas School Board had proposed? It doesn’t sound like it from your letter.
California Boy
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An elaborate spoof on Intelligent Design, The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is neither too elaborate nor too spoofy to succeed in nailing the fallacies of ID. It's even wackier than Jonathan Swift's suggestion that the Irish eat their children as a way to keep them from being a burden, and it may offend just as many people, but Henderson, described elsewhere as a 25-year-old "out-of-work physics major," puts satire to the same serious use that Swift did. Oh, yes, it is very funny. -- Scientific American
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If “intelligent design” is correct, then there are equal odds that the intelligent creator of the universe is actually a Flying Spaghetti Monster, since the nature of the intelligent designer is a question that is never even remotely approached in the intelligent design “theory”.
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If ID is to be taught in schools then teach it as religeon or philosophy, but science? come on…
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i have no clue what u people are talking about
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what are u people talking about?!?!?!?!?
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Dear Laurie,
I want to reply to some of the things you wrote in your post on Sep 20th, 2006 at 12:19 am. I am an extremely open-minded Christian. Many consider me a liberal. I ask questions. I expect answers. I refuse to close my eyes and leap!
Warning!!! I am quickly developing a reputation on this site as a rather verbose individual. I hope you will take the time to read what follows. If you are unwilling please at least the last few paragraphs, beginning with the student: “GOD DOES NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL!” I think you will some very key and possibly surprising ideas if you skip down, but please at least read that section. Oh, I also answered the question about God having a penis.
The truth about God, Hell, and Humanity:
Nicholas E. Craig
The Bible states very clearly that everyone will spend eternity somewhere. Matthew 25:31-46 is a good example. However, when reading this passage it should be kept in mind that “good works†are a consequence of salvation and not the means by which a person can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9/James 2:17-18/Matthew 24:46). Salvation comes through faith alone. Placing their trust in Jesus Christ’s vicarious death on the cross saves a person. A person must admit that they are a sinner, and in need of salvation. A person must believe that God loves them so much that He died in their place and took their punishment for sin. After a person places faith in Christ they enter into relationship with the Triune God and they can begin to uncover life.
Both heaven and hell are eternal. – They will last forever.
Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (NKJV)
Heaven (the kingdom) was prepared for Laurie and the rest of humanity. God never intended for Humans to go to hell. Matthew 25:34, “Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.†(NKJV)
Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.†(NKJV) The everlasting fire is not a literal fire; it is symbolic for eternal death, or more specifically, eternal separation from God. Fire would be horrible, but separation and solitude will be worse.
God created us to be in fellowship with Him.
Ephesians 1:5, “His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into His own family by bringing us to Himself through Jesus Christ And this gave Him great pleasure.†(NLT)
Our sins separate us from God.
Isaiah 59:2, “But your iniquities have separated you from your God. And your sins have hidden His face from you….†(NKJV)
God is holy and cannot tolerate the presence of sin.
Leviticus 10:1-3, “Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. And Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD spoke, saying: ‘By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy….” (NKJV)
God didn’t want to break out against those guys. But He had to, as Millard J. Erickson put it, “God is, as it were, allergic to sin and evil.â€
God practices perfect justice.
Deuteronomy 32:4, “The Rock, His work is perfect, for all His ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is He.†(ESV)
Imagine someone commits a crime. Imagine they get caught red-handed and then brought before the judge. If the judge is a good judge will he let the criminal go unpunished? No, if the judge is a good judge, he will punish the criminal for his crime. God is the perfect judge.
The Penalty must be paid.
Look what the Bible says about the punishment for sin:
Romans 6:23a, “For the wages of sin is death ….†(NKJV)
Hell is death. Our sin puts us on death row. We are facing the ultimate death penalty. Only death can pay the death penalty. Thankfully, the penalty has been paid.
Romans 6:23b, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.†(NKJV)
I’m a momma’s boy. My mom loves me. My siblings say I’m her favorite. I don’t know about that, but here’s what I do know: If my mom could she would go before God and say, “God, I understand that Nic has a death penalty to pay, and I’m here to pay it. Take my life in place of his. God’s reply might be something like this, “Rhonda that is admirable, but you can’t pay Nic’s death penalty because you have your own to pay.â€
Jesus was sinless and is thus the only acceptable substitute for the sins of an individual. Jesus had no death penalty to pay and because of His great love He paid ours.
1Peter 3:18, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.†(NKJV)
God is holy so he must judge sin; however, he is also merciful and in order to maintain both His perfect justice and mercy, He died in our place. He suffered a horrible death. He took our punishment. He did it because He is a loving God.
GOD DOES NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL!
1Timothy 2:3b-6a, “…God our Savior…desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all….†(NKJV)
I love my wife. I hope that she never leaves me, but I don’t want to chain her up in our home so that she can’t leave. I want her to love me with an authentic love, and be with me because she desires to do so. It’s the same with God. God is a gentleman. He did not want robots that were forced to love Him so He created men with freewill.
Think about this: It grieves God for His creations to perish. However, He was willing to endure that kind of heartache just to enjoy authentic fellowship with the ones who would allow Him to save them. Imagine a man who knows that in order for him to experience the joys of having children his wife will have to endure horrible pain and they will have to lose many children. Imagine that somehow he knew those children that would be lost, and I mean really knew them intimately. Know this: God desires all men to be saved, and He was willing to endure the heartache of losing some for the joys of having the others.
God doesn’t want anyone to perish. People choose to go to hell, because they choose to remain separated from God. The person who experiences hell has rejected God’s way to escape their punishment. Sin is a person going through life saying, “Go away God.†Hell is God finally granting their wish. As C.S. Lewis has put it, “The doors of hell are locked on the inside.â€
Finally, God is not a man. God transcends gender. God came to earth as a man, and yes He had the full package. If you study the Scripture you will see that God created men and women in His image (Gen 1:27). Lots of Christians misunderstand what the Bible teaches about men and women and their differences. Men and women are equal. They have different roles, but they are equal. Their equality is much the same as the equality shared by the Triune Godhead. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are equal. Their roles are different; nevertheless, they are equal.
Thanks for reading this post. If anyone wants to write a very long post, in which they make fun of me and hate on my perspective, I promise I will read it all. Thanks again.
Nic the Verbose
Check out my previous post: “Is God Really There?”.
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Well you won’t be him when he stands before God. So worry about your own self and leave the spaghetti man alone. I can think of many worse sins than believing in a flying spaghetti monster. If indeed that is a sin. Geez.
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My, nic, you really are verbose. I do appreciate that your message is not violent or openly condescending, but, really, I am unwilling to read whatever it was you were trying to say. I have no hate for you in my heart, and I’m not going to try to argue with your beliefs. My purpose in responding to your post is to tell you that I don’t care what the Bible says. Period. Thank you very much.
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“Salvation comes through faith alone. Placing their trust in Jesus Christ’s vicarious death on the cross saves a person. A person must admit that they are a sinner, and in need of salvation. A person must believe that God loves them so much that He died in their place and took their punishment for sin. After a person places faith in Christ they enter into relationship with the Triune God and they can begin to uncover life. “—that in a nutshell is why I have such issues with your religion, you realize. Because the entire idea of one group of people going to heaven while EVERYONE ELSE goes to hell sounds to me like a load of bullshit. I believe in a god who cares more about actions then what time they pray and what prayers they say.
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” If my mom could she would go before God and say, “God, I understand that Nic has a death penalty to pay, and I’m here to pay it. Take my life in place of his. God’s reply might be something like this, “Rhonda that is admirable, but you can’t pay Nic’s death penalty because you have your own to pay.†—Ok. Here’s the thing. If I’ve sinned–which I have–then, hell, I WANT to be the one to pay the price. Why should Jesus–or anyone else–pay for MY sins? I’m not so weak that I can’t take what I’m due.
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your quoting from the bible really meant nothing to me. I don’t think god wrote the bible, so it’s like you taking some random book and quoting from it. It sounds good, but what makes it right?
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No offence, but after hearing what you had to say on Chrisitanity, I think I’d rather stay a christless heathen and go to hell. Sounds like the people down there’re more fun to hang with.
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I wouldn’t want to be you standing before the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Here’s the real problem when trying to think objectively about science and religion. The fact, and yes it is a fact, that one day we are going to die and from then on will cease to exist forever, is a very hard thing to accept. Unfortunately it’s the truth. What you have to realize and understand is that humans are no more significant in the Universe than ants or dogs. We are simply naturally occurring beings on this rock, like moss. We serve no purpose and are only here for whatever natural occurrences brought us about. The sad thing is that we realize we are going to die, that’s the only difference between the animals and us. We’re sentient. Just because we can cry doesn’t mean anyone in the sky should care. Our lives are pointless and to fight your death is futile. Just because we’re atheists doesn’t mean we don’t care that we’re going to die, we just choose to live a life of truth instead of ignorance. I even find myself wondering sometimes if I’d be happier believing in a religion of some sort because either way, it won’t make any difference to in the end. Your body will still rot away and you will not exist any longer. For all of you religious folks out there, I don’t blame you. It takes a very strong person live their life without any sort of “afterlife insurance”. But you just have to ask yourself, “blue pill or red pill?”.
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Also, I strongly suggest everyone check out http://www.godisimaginary.com It explains everything simply. Nothing more to say from what’s there.
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Yes, that makes lots of sense, because we should all believe in Jesus just in case. I mean, what’s wrong with living your entire life under the guilt of original sin, as long as you’re ensuring that you don’t spend your non-existent eternal life in Hell.
I love Christians that are Christians only because they’re not sure and would rather not go to Hell, rather than Christians that believe in Christ because he’s a cool dude.
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Dearest Erick V,
I am impressed. You actually understand the logical conclusions of atheism. If there is no God, if life began from an impersonal explosion, then all is pointless. And humans are particularly sad because they can’t deal with the real. I’m not just referring to theist at this point, no I mean ALL people. All humans pretend human life is worth something. All humans pretend life in general is worth something. However, that’s just a cruel joke evolution has played on us. (Ironically, Hitler and other insane and inhumane individuals turn out to be absolute geniuses.)
If some of the implications of quantum mechanics are correct, and the Arminian perspective is correct, and I believe they are, we have free will. So, I respect your decision to remain an atheist. Please respect my decision to remain a Christian. If it turns out that everything is rigid and deterministic like Newtonian physics and Calvin have implied, then neither of us can help being what we are. Lets let each other be.
However, I think we should live locigiclly consistent with our presuppositions. So, I’ll go on loving people and trying to preserve our planet. You should begin to care less. You should start taking what you want. If we are indeed just animals shouldn’t we live that way? I suggest you model yourself after the behavior patterns of the hyena; they are probably about as amoral as you can get.
I wish atheist would stop living in a fantasy world. If there is no God, there is no point; there are no aesthetics; there is no such thing as love; there is no value of any sort.
Here is the real decision we should be making: Revolt or Revolution. Revolt against the system and everything that hinders the satisfaction of your every desire. Or start a revolution and get back to an active existence relating to the Most High. (I don’t participate in religion. I relate to God and experience life.)
Keep it logical…
Peace
p.s. Please read my above post titled: “Is God Really There?â€. The section detailing the Anthropological Argument is particularly relevant to your post.
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Dearest Gill,
I don’t think God wrote the Bible either. I think 40 plus men over a 1500-year period wrote the Bible. In my usual verbose fashion, I have set forth five reasons you should respect the Bible and it’s message. I hope you’ll take time to read them.
1. Jews.
-What is a Jew? Is it a faith, or race; what is it?
The supreme court of Israel once said that you’re a Jew if your mother was a Jew.
-Deuteronomy 28– God created the Jews. He said that their disobedience would cause them to be persecuted, hated, and scattered into every nation, but that they would never perish or lose their identity. God also promised to bring them back to Israel. The Jews have been scattered, persecuted, and hated just like it was prophesied.
· In the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70) over two million Jews were killed in two weeks.
· In Germany 6 million were murdered during the Holocaust.
-The Philistines, Hittites, Jebusites, Philistines, and all the other “ites†except the Termites are gone. Ever heard of an American Hittite, Russian Jebusite, or French Philistine?
-Ever heard of an American Jew? Russian Jew? German Jew? There are even Mexican Jews. The Jews have been hated and heavily afflicted but they have never ceased to exist or lost their identity. God has kept His promise! They had no king, no land and still they existed and thrived.
-Before the Battle of Water Lou, Napoleon was with his generals and asked his chief of staff for one piece of evidence that proved revealed religion was true. One of his officials pointed to a Jewish general.
-The fact that the Jews still exist argues strongly for the validity of the Biblical account.
2.The Bible.
-The Bible is unique, different from all others, no equal or like.
· Written over a period of over 1,500 years.
· Written by more than 40 authors from every walk of life: kings, peasants, poets, doctor, and fishermen, etc.
· Written at different times, some in peace, and some in war.
· Written in different moods, some from the heights of joy, others from the depth of sorrow.
· Written from a variety of geographic locations (3 Continents: Africa, Asia, & Europe).
· Written in 3 languages, most of the O.T in Hebrew, some of the O.T. in Aramaic, and the N.T. in Koine Greek.
· Written on hundreds of controversial topics. Yet, even with all its diversity the Bible contains one unfolding story! From the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation, the Bible is the story of God’s redemption of humanity through the coming of the Messiah. Considering all the diversity in which it was written the harmony and continuity it possesses is nothing short of miraculous.
-If you were to assemble 10 of histories greatest authors, not 40 just 10, all from one walk of life, one continent, writing in one place at one time, in one mood, in one language, on just one controversial subject you would not have a unified book, but rather a conglomeration. The product would certainly not contain a unified message; it would prove to be quite conflicting.
-The Bible was not written with the purpose of answering historical or scientific questions; however, this does not mean that nothing of historic or scientific value can be learned from it.
-The Hittite nation provides one of many examples where the Bible has been proven historically accurate. For years people harshly criticized the Bible because it mentioned a race of people called the Hittites, which Scholars believed never existed. However, archeologist later uncovered an entire Hittite civilization. Today, you can go to Harvard and study the Hittite language. They made a Hittite dictionary.
-The Bible is unique. The Bible is true.
3.Historic Prophecy.
-When the Bible was written 25% of it was prophetic.
-Tyre was a powerful seaport in 600 B.C. It was located along the Mediterranean coast. The people where called Phoenicians, not Tyrants.
-The Bible (Ezekiel 26) made predictions about Tyre:
· Nebuchadnezzar would destroy it.
· Many nations would participate in its ultimate destruction.
· It would be laid waist like a bare rock. And all the city’s debris would be scraped into the Mediterranean Sea. It would be a place for fishermen to spread their nets and it would never be rebuilt again.
-In 586 B.C. Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Tyre for 13 years. Finally he broke through a section of the wall only to find no one was there. The Phoenicians had traveled with all their wealth to a little village called Insular, which was on a small Island exactly a half-mile off the coast. They had already begun to rebuild their fortification. Nebuchadnezzar was extremely angered by this because he had no ships. Also, his troop’s salary was supposed to be the wealth of Tyre, and now He would have to pay them himself. So he totally leveled the city and for over 200 years it was leveled. But the prophecy said other nations would participate, the cities debris would be scraped into the Mediterranean Sea, it would be like a bare rock and never rebuilt again.
-In 332 B.C. Alexander the Great conquered and combined the nation states around him and attacked Tyre “the islandâ€, but his ships sank. The Phoenicians had placed huge tree trunks with pointed ends just under the water. So he had his army and the other nations rake the debris left by Nebuchadnezzar into the sea; it formed a roadway a half-mile long and 200 feet wide. His armies walked out and destroyed Tyre. In an article by National Geographic they had a picture of the roadway with fishing nets spread over it. The prophecy was fulfilled down to the smallest detail.
-There is a Tyre today, but it’s 40 miles north. It’s not the original site or city.
4.Saul of Tarsus.
-He was a great Jewish leader. He studied under Gamaliel, the grandson of the greatest of all Jewish scholars, Hillel.
-Saul was referred to as a Pharisee’s Pharisee, which was the highest order you could be given. He was brilliant in His language. He studied in Tarsus, which is like Harvard cubed.
-Saul hated Jesus and Christians. He thought Jesus was an anti-Christ. He persecuted Christians, and they feared him.
-He was converted (Acts 9:3-6). The greatest hater became the greatest lover, and the greatest murderer became the greatest missionary.
-What happened? History confirms that something happened to cause Saul of Tarsus to become Paul the missionary. One scholar said that he had an epileptic fit; another said he was struck by lightening. Secular historians can’t explain what happened to cause Saul of Tarsus to become Paul the missionary. But I can; He met Jesus!
-You’ve got to explain away the conversion of Saul of tarsus. During a debate, an atheist explained it by saying that psychology has proven that you can be so against something that you eventually become an adherent. The Christian with whom he was debating spoke up immediately and said, “Sir, you better be careful or you will become a Christian.â€
-Oxford professors, Dr. Benjamin Gilbert West and Dr, Sir George Littleton wanted to destroy the Christian faith. They knew that they had to prove two things to be false: (1) the resurrection of Christ, and (2) the conversion of Saul of Tarsus. So they took a year to do individual research and then came back together to review their findings for the purpose of writing a book to refute Christianity. When the two returned each had found that they were wrong. Dr. Benjamin Gilbert West wrote a book on the resurrection and said it’s one of the most established events in history. Dr. Sir George Littleton said that the conversion of Saul of Tarsus is reality. And they both became Christians.
5.Jesus is unique.
-He forces you to decide; you cannot remain neutral. You can study the life of George Washington and remain neutral. You can study the life of Mohammed and remain neutral. You don’t have to make a choice. However, Jesus forces you to decide
-He claimed to be God (John 10:30). Jehovah’s Witness’ say, “I am one with the father in spirit, meaning, and purpose.†But Jesus used a construction in the Greek that means one in essence and nature. And that’s how His audience understood Him, and that’s why they picked up rocks to stone Him (John 10:33). Jesus claimed to be God and this presents two alternatives: (1) His claims are false, or (2) His claims are true.
-If false He knew He was a liar and died for a lie. Or He did not know His claims were false, and He was a lunatic.
-If His claims are true, He is Lord. If He is Lord there are two alternatives: (1) accept it or (2) reject it.
-He did not afford the opportunity to say, “He was a good teacher.â€
-He is either: a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord.
-Luke 24:25-27 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory? “And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
-The great Jewish Scholars agree that there are 333 Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, which was written over a period of hundreds of years and completed over 500 years before Jesus was born.
-Dr. Peter Stoner wrote a book called Science Speaks. He used the modern science of probability to determine the probability of one person fulfilling just 8 of these prophecies. The American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) examined his findings and they affirmed that his statistics were accurate. He concluded that the probability of one person fulfilling just 8 of these prophecies is 1 in a quadrillion (1 x 1017). That’s 1 in 1000000000000000000. Dr Stoner said it’s equivalent to filling the state of Texas 2 feet deep with silver dollars, marking one silver dollar with a red check, then throwing it in the pile, mixing the pile with bulldozers, blindfolding yourself, walking the state and then picking the silver dollar with the red check from the pile.
-The probability of one person fulfilling just 48 of these 333 prophecies is
1 x 10157.
That’s 1 in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.
-To count the electrons in an inch line of electrons lined up one after another, counting them at a rate of 250 electrons a minute, would only take you 19 million years. Now take a cubic inch of electrons, count them at a rate of 250 electrons a minute, and it will take you a mere 19 million years times 19 million years times 19 million years. Now blind fold your self, distinctively mark an electron throw it in, shake all the electrons up, take a pair of tweezers and pick out the distinctively marked electron. The possibility of this happening is the same probability that someone could fulfill just 48 of the 333 Messianic prophecies.
-But Jesus didn’t fulfill 8 or 48 of these prophecies; He fulfilled all 333. The facts are in: Jesus is Lord!
God went through all the trouble of fulfilling these various prophecies, and all these things because He is passionate about His relationship with you. (Exodus 34:14) He has confirmed that His Scriptures are true. He has protected them in such away that we can open them and He will speak to us.
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Life has value to the induvidual. Regardless of any deity. I dont need a god to be happy and for my life to have meaning to me. Whats the difference between dedicating your life to finding happiness in the hereafter or happiness here on earth. The difference is we know we exist. We know the earth exists. Nobody knows for sure that there is a hereafter. Lots of people think they do but nobody really does.
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Sure, life has value to the individual, but it’s an existential illusion according to atheistic logic.
I am simply requesting that people live logically consistent with the conclusions of their world-view.
If life is void of purpose, live that way. However, if you cannot, as no one really can, admit your hypocrisy. Don’t call Christians hypocrites; after all, we are attempting to live logically consistent with the conclusions of our Christian worldview.
Peace.
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this is a great site, lol. i am a follower of YHWH (God, Jesus) and refuse to call myself Christian. Why? (you may ask) Because alot of ‘christians’ are so closed minded and unlearned that they come into a site like this and leave retarted comments such as ‘I wouldn’t want to be you when you stand before God.’ If you don’t read the word of God and if you don’t try to understand it, then keep your comments to yourself. I feel that the study of science and the bible can go hand in hand. try looking at the evolutionary theory and ask yourself, “how awesome would a creator be to place this into action?” I fall into the category of intentional design and not intelligent design. Point one of this is intelligent design in redundant (if someone designs something there is intelligents) and second it was intentional that God set the processes into action. I’m sorry to all of you who do not call yourselves ‘christians’ for all the rediculous comments made by them.
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The problem is, most of the christians I know aren’t living consistently with their conclusions. Sunday service pays for all. Carry on again on monday. Also, if life is void of pre-defined purpose, I am free to choose my own.
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You said:
“If you are right, and evolution is the only answer, then we will all just be dirt-food when we die. But if you are wrong, and the intelligent design people are right and there is a God, then you’ll be in a tough spot.”
Son, you have just sentenced yourself to eternal hellfire according to your religion. You believe in god because of fear, not faith. Fear created religion in most cultures by requiring weak minded people to have something to believe they were working for, but hypo-chistianity (hypocrisy – Chistianity) requires faith of which you have none. Get your heathen ass to church.
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Just because I am an atheist and believe there is no purpose to our lives does not mean I should live like an animal. I believe we have surpassed animals by becoming sentient beings therefore creating a single purpose in our lives, to discover immortality. It may sound a little strange but it’s the only logical conclusion and the closest thing to a purpose, at least in our case. If we could all live forever our lives could have purpose; we would be breaking the animalistic and natural mold of life, thereby bringing ourselves to a new level of life, a level that Christians and the like believe we are already at. Also worth mentioning is that fact that there is such a thing as love just as there is such a thing as friendship. Although it has nothing to do with a spirit or soul our brain can still form relationships. The problem with religion, besides the other obvious reasons, is that is tries to fill in “the gaps” in life. Just because we don’t understand something doesn’t mean it was because of God. What you must try to do is comprehend the Universe, the size and magnitude of it all, because the more you think about it and the more you learn the more you realize just how little you know. Our inability to truly understand the world around us leads us to assume. We assume things about how life and the world work because we want a sense of meaning in our lives. You could call the world, life, unfair but you would be wrong. An opinion is something that you can compare to something else but with life it’s all there is. You must take it for what it is. The reason I refuse to live in ignorance, as blissful as it may be, I want, like all of us do, to have a feeling of meaning in my life. I want to be a logical person and I just cannot do that by being a hypocrite. In response to you, dearest Nic, you are the one being illogical. You look towards the Bible for guidance and yet you fail to observe what it really is, a story. Can I prove that the Bible is false? Certainly not, but being a logical person it is the only thing to assume. I cannot look at the moon and assume it’s made of cheese, just because, despite what I have learned in school. Thinking logically will dissolve every sense of religious thought from you, unless you only believe you are being logical and your ignorance is blinding you from true thought.
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You are all wrong. I created everything.
And the Earth is shaped like a burrito.
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My good friend Eric V,
Thanks for the reply. Obviously, I do not really want you to act like an animal. I was being sarcastic. Perhaps the reality of my point will be more apparent if I give you this illustration and ask you these questions: Imagine someone chooses to act like an animal; they come to your home, steal you stuff, rape your wife, kill you kids, and on top of all that leave your home a complete mess; what right do you have to say their actions were wrong? To what standard will you appeal? Every code of law developed by mankind is arbitrary. That is, if the opinion of the majority changes, so will the law. If there is no God there is no absolute moral standard. What is is always right. Who are you and your government to impose your arbitrary standards on anyone? Your atheistic system begins the impersonal. Matter and energy are amoral. They don’t care about you family. However, you do. I do. Everyone should. Why? Your family is intrinsically valuable.
BUT, according to your atheist presuppositions, the only logical conclusion is that our perceiving them as valuable is an illusion.
DENOUNCE IT OR DEAL WITH IT!
As far as my being illogical, if you take the time to read my post to Laurie, you will see five very logical reasons for believing the Bible (The ideas are not original to me; they come from Josh McDowell’s book, Evidence That Demands A Verdict.). The Bible is a book of stories; however, they are unified and historically accurate. The historicity of the Bible is not dubious in the mind of any real scholar.
Coincidently, you said the ” purpose in our lives” is “to discover immortality”. I thought you might be interested to know that Ecclesiastes 3:11 teaches us that God has placed the desire for immortality in your heart so that you will seek Him. Further, it teaches that your quest will reveal how small you really are, or as you put it, “just how little you know”. Looks like your better at proving the Bible than I am.
Thank you for thinking. Too many people just follow the herd, Christians and atheists alike.
Peace
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Dear Howthehelldidthatparrotgetinhere,
I agree. It is a problem that we Christians do not live consistently with our world-view. That is why I was careful to say that we are attempting to be consistent. Unfortunately, we often don’t even attempt consistency. Thankfully, a relationship with God is not based on our performance. Lastly, the purpose you choose is only an illusion. In the end, once entropy has increased to its maximum intensity, all will be silent, and you chosen purpose will be forgotten, yet no more meaningless than it was the moment you choose it.
Atheism: DENOUNCE IT OR DEAL WITH IT!
Peace
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For all the atheist out there:
I want it to be quite clear what I am talking about. For some reason people are having a hard time understanding this very simple and FACTUAL concept:
God created world = purpose, meaning, love, aesthetics, etc.
The world happened accidentally = adapt or die
God created world = be nice to people
The world happened accidentally = do what you want just don’t get caught by the theist who think they have a standard by which to judge your behavior or by the hypocrite atheists who want to impose their self-righteous arbitrary standards on you.
Hug Somebody.
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You’re all cordially invited to my playhouse for a dirt-food luncheon.
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And here I thought I was going to be WORM food. What, exactly, does dirt eat?
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“I wish atheist would stop living in a fantasy world. If there is no God, there is no point…”–can’t agree with you there. I know plenty of people who don’t believe in god. They act as good people because they want to help others to make a difference for the future. If anything, they’re more admirerable, because they don’t think they’ll get a reward out of what they do. And, surprise surprise, they have morals and they love. They just don’t love something they can’t see/hear/accept.
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I actually find it funny that you mentioned so much about Judaism…..as I happen to be a Jew myself. Just a very weird one.
“-Written over a period of over 1,500 years.
· Written by more than 40 authors from every walk of life: kings, peasants, poets, doctor, and fishermen, etc.
· Written at different times, some in peace, and some in war.
· Written in different moods, some from the heights of joy, others from the depth of sorrow.
· Written from a variety of geographic locations (3 Continents: Africa, Asia, & Europe).
· Written in 3 languages, most of the O.T in Hebrew, some of the O.T. in Aramaic, and the N.T. in Koine Greek.”—which means there are bound to be mistakes made, as humans are inclined to make mistakes. How do you know the bible didn’t start OFF saying ‘homosexuals are fine’ and then just got changed along the way by people who felt otherwise?
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“The Bible is true.”—I don’t think so. I don’t believe in Christ as the messiah, obviously….plus the bible says it’s fine to own slaves. Is this ‘true’ then? I’m not saying parts of it can’t be true. I’m sure a man named Jesus lived and preached and died thousands of years ago. But as a whole it leaves a lot to be desired.
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I have issues with Paul as I understand him. Anyone who kills based on religion should not be forgiven, by Christ or anyone else. As for him becoming chrisitain–hell, I don’t know, I wasn’t there. Were you? Maybe he did meet Christ. Either way, I know that I wouldn’t switch religions if I met Jesus, for one. (Paul, in my opinion, was not a true Jew, either, because I don’t believe my god wants his followers to kill people. But I suppose that’s a matter of opinion, eh?)
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“Jesus claimed to be God and this presents two alternatives: (1) His claims are false, or (2) His claims are true.
-If false He knew He was a liar and died for a lie. Or He did not know His claims were false, and He was a lunatic.”—Maybe he is. No offence, just saying. Do you know for sure? If you have faith in him, great, I’m glad you’ve found something that works for you. But I don’t have that faith, so I–and others like me–can’t trust in Jesus the way you do. As for those prophecies….the bible says Jesus fufilled all of them, yes? Well, I say someone along the way switched things around to make it look better (lied, if you want to put it that way, because let’s face it…us humans have issues with telling things as they are.) Maybe I’m wrong. If you don’t agree with me, fine. But that’s what I say.
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Once again, you are dead wrong when it comes to aithests. Obviously I can’t speak for all of them, but the ones I know–and the one I was for a while–are not amoral and were not bad people. They simply believe that they want to help others to make the future as best as possible. Does that take faith? Sure. Not all athiests, because they don’t accept god, don’t accept faith in other things. (Also, I believe there’s a chemical reaction type thing in the brain that can account for love, but I’m no scientist so I won’t try to argue that, hahah.)
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Let me make it clear, just in case you misunderstood–I have no problems with religion. Maybe when I die it’ll be that Wiccans were the ones who got it right, or Hindus, or Jews, or Christians. Whoever. Point is, I (me, myself alone) could not be as good a person if I personally was Hindu/Wiccan/whatever because those paths don’t speak to me. Same probably goes for you with your Chrisitanity. That’s my problem—if it helps you, fine, but don’t assume the rest of us find our answers where you found yours. Let god himself tell me–and not through some book that may or may not be filled with errors–what to follow and how to live. Until then, I’ll go with what feels right for me. (Was this too long an answer?)
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Try this, Nic. http://www.godisimaginary.com Tell me what you think. You see, the Bible is quite clever, this is true. Although it is a collection of false stories it is hypocritical and contradicts itself many times all in the name of getting as many people to believe in it as possible and to do this it must appeal to everyone. You can’t give “evidence” from passages in the Bible to prove it or its theories correct. Using your own logic you can easily determine that the Bible is completely absurd and false. God is obviously a creation of people’s fear for death. Religion is a crutch for the weak-minded.
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Gill,
No, I like long answers.
Thanks for reading my post. God knows it took patience on your part.
I must be a really bad writer. I have made a very simple point over and over, and people keep misunderstanding me.
I am not saying atheists are bad people. I believe all people are good, yet stained with bad. Faith is what differentiates between Christians and atheists. However, faith is not believing that God exists. Faith is reliance upon Jesus of Nazareth and His work on the cross, as opposed to your own good works for salvation. It’s coming to God empty handed and saying, “I need forgiveness will you give it to me?†and from that point on faith is trying to live in light of the truth.
Here is what I am saying:
Morals cannot be produced by time + chance. If the universe came into being without a personal Creator, as atheists believe, then there can be no such thing as right or wrong.
I am certain that no one can live consistently with the conclusions that an impersonal beginning (Big Bang, etc.) necessitates. At this point, I refer you to the extreme illustration and questions I presented to my good friend Eric V: Imagine someone comes to your home, steals your stuff, rapes your wife, kills you kids, and on top of all that, they leave your home a complete mess; what right do you have to say their actions were wrong? To what standard will you appeal? Every code of law developed by mankind is arbitrary. That is, if the opinion of the majority changes, so will the law. If there is no God there is no absolute moral standard. What is…is always right. Who are you or who is your government to impose arbitrary standards on anyone? Your atheistic system begins with the impersonal. Matter and energy are amoral. They don’t care about your family. However, you do. I do. Everyone should. Why? Your family is intrinsically valuable.
BUT, according to your atheist presuppositions, the only logical conclusion is that our perceiving them as valuable is an illusion.
Atheism: DENOUNCE IT OR DEAL WITH IT!
Now for you questions…
You wrote, “How do you know the bible didn’t start OFF saying ‘homosexuals are fine’ and then just got changed along the way by people who felt otherwise?”
The answer to this question is simple. Have you ever read any of the great works (literature) from antiquity? Do you think they are still in their original state? Aristotle wrote his poetics around 343 B.C., and the earliest copy we have is dated A.D. 1100, nearly a 1,400 year gap, and only five manuscripts are in existence. Caesar composed his history of the Gallic Wars between 58 and 50 B.C., and it’s manuscript authority rests on ten copies dating one thousand years after his death.
When it comes to the manuscript authority of the New Testament, the abundance of material is almost embracing in contrast. Over twenty thousand copies of the New Testament manuscripts are in existence today, the earliest of which is only twenty-five years older than the original. The Iliad has six hundred forty-three manuscripts and is second to the New Testament in manuscript authority. The earliest copy we have today of the Iliad was written about five hundred years after the original. Yet, no one doubts that we have what Homer actually wrote.
Sir Frederic Kenyon, who was the director and principal librarian at the British Museum and second to none in authority in issuing statements about manuscripts, concludes: “The interval then between dates of the original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.” No one who knows anything about textual criticism and ancient manuscripts will disagree.
You wrote, “The bible says it’s fine to own slaves.â€
That’s not true! As a Jew you should know that. YHWH gave the Jews instruction on how to treat the slaves they had, but he never said, “Thou shalt posses slaves.†Further, most slaves sold themselves into that slavery. And lastly, look up “Jubileeâ€. I think you’ll get a good idea of how God views slavery. For the New Testament position on slavery read Paul’s letter to Philemon.
Concerning Paul, you wrote, “Anyone who kills based on religion should not be forgiven.” – Good thing you’re not God.
You also wrote, “Paul, in my opinion, was not a true Jew….” – Yeah, that’s a new concept for me…and every historian in the world for that matter.
About Jesus being a lunatic or a liar:
Friends, who dies for a lie? Who would endure what he endured for a lie? He had chance to recant, to say that he was just kidding, but he didn’t He gave up His life for His claim. Or maybe He did not know His claims were false, and He was a lunatic. He only thought He was God. This would mean that the greatest contributor to the world as we know it was a crazy man. A crazy man has had a greater affect on the world than all the philosophers, psychologist, and doctors the world has ever known. That’s just not logical, and since everyone on this site to trying prove that his or her position is the most logical I shouldn’t have to answer this one again.
About the Messianic prophecies:
I refer you back the section of this post, which established the authenticity and the integrity of the New Testament manuscripts as we have them today. If that is not sufficient for you check out Evidence That Demands A Verdict, by Josh McDowell (Read the chapter titled: The Reliability of the Bible.).
Lastly, I’m all about letting God speak to you. But don’t be so petty as to ask for a sign, and most importantly sincerely ask Him to speak to you.
You’re awesome.
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Dammit! I had this whole long thing and it got erased….ergh.
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You make a good point. Why IS murder wrong if man’s rules ARE all arbitray? And I’ll be honest, I don’t have a direct answer for you. To me, murder is wrong because it’s taking something (a life) that isn’t yours to take. But WHY is this wrong? Some say god, some say it just is. The point is that people who don’t accept god still accept morals because they don’t believe that they came from god. They act the way they act because that’s what feels right to them. (You might want to ask an actual athiest about this, they could describe it better then I can.)
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The reason no one doubts what Homer wrote is because, simply….Homer didn’t write the bible. He wrote a book which has been translated a thousand times over, no doubt changes were made….but few care too terribly much about that because Homer’s book isn’t telling them how to live. Any book that basically tells people how to act and where their immortal soul is going is gonna be looked at really hard….because why would anyone listen to it if they weren’t sure it was right?
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As for it being changed, I still say it’s likly that in, over the many years and translations, something somewhere was changed, left out, switched around. Plus, assuming that it WASN’T–assuming it’s the exact same, word for word, as it was to start with, I still have issues with it. It’s a BOOK. It’s frankly, kinda outdated. The views on women and on slaves, for one. While its ideas are good, I really do think it needs to be looked at as a piece of literature, not the end all of rules.
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“YHWH gave the Jews instruction on how to treat the slaves they had, but he never said, “Thou shalt posses slaves.†Further, most slaves sold themselves into that slavery.”– He might never have said he liked slavery…..but he didn’t say outright DO NOT OWN, which meant….leagally, (or whatever term you wanna use) he was ok with it. It’s the same thing with the American constitution: the framers were extremly careful to add an amendment stating that any power not listed outright could not be stolen by the national goverment. Otherwise, as any lawyer would tell you, there’s a loophole the size of a planet. ‘You didn’t say I couldn’t, so I can!’
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Yeah, it is a good thing. I’m far too opinionated….not to mention I think giving me the power to send people up or down is just waaay too risky, hahah. But, I stand by what I said–I try not to judge anyone, but–call it human weakness?–I cannot stand the idea of someone who thinks he has the right to hold life in his hands. Which is why I would never accept any god who preached mass murder, even if that’s what god came to me and preached.
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“Yeah, that’s a new concept for me…and every historian in the world for that matter.”–I’m actually not sure if that’s sarcasm or not, heh. Either way, that’s just how I feel…because to me murder is disgusting. I’m sure many people would disagree with me. (Hell, many orthodox Jews wouldn’t consider me a Jew to begin with.)
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I’m not saying I actually think Jesus was out-of-his-mind crazy. I’m sure he really did believe what he preached….and that’s not being crazy! Millions of people have died for their religion out of their faith, which is nothing to scorn over. What I’m saying is that while many people believe he was correct, many others don’t…..and there really is no REAL way to prove either side right or wrong. It all boils down to faith…which cannot be forced by someone else telling you they’re right and you’re wrong. (Also, as to ‘who dies for a lie’….many Nazis died happily believing they were saving the world from the ’subhuman races.’)
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Oh, I’ve found god…my god, anyway. I’m not gonna say my faith never wavered, ’cause it did…but I’m satisfied with my religion and the answers it gives me. But I can see why someone else wouldn’t be, and I can see why someone else would find their faith elsewhere.
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I’m waiting for a response =(
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Dearest Eric V,
I saw that site in one of your previous posts and I checked it out earlier. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I’ve only read one article so far, but the logic was bad. I mean really mad. It was the article about Jesus being a hypocritical jerk. For an answer to that article read my post to Laurie about Hell. Here are a few quick quotes from it:
God doesn’t want anyone to perish. People choose to go to hell, because they choose to remain separated from God. The person who experiences hell has rejected God’s way to escape their punishment. Sin is a person going through life saying, “Go away God.†Hell is God finally granting their wish. As C.S. Lewis has put it, “The doors of hell are locked on the inside.â€
Jesus does love His enemies. He has done everything He can, without over-riding your free will to keep you from eternal death.
You said, “You can’t give “evidence†from passages in the Bible to prove it or its theories correct.”
I agree. That is called circular reasoning. Here are some logical reasons to accept the Bible’s Testimony:
I want you to give me your mind for a minute; I’m going to get a little philosophical. What if when I look at an object that is the color blue I see what you see when you look at something the color green, and when you look at an object the color green you see what I see when I look at something the color red. Could you ever know which hue a thing actually was? I don’t think so! Because there is no way for you to see with my eyes and brain, thus we could never see it differently than we already do. But, if somehow the thing could speak to us and tell us about its color we could know the hue. However, we would have to hope that the thing actually knew something about itself. It would be wise if we asked a few questions to see if the thing’s description of itself was in harmony with the things we could be sure of about it.
You’re probably wondering where I’m going with this. I’m trying to illustrate what it’s like for us when we try to define God. We can’t do it. We need God to define God. That’s where the Bible comes in. The Bible is God’s revelation of Himself to man. The Bible tells us who God is and how He has redeemed us.
You might be asking how do we know for sure that God knows anything about Himself. We can read the Bible and see if God’s revelation harmonizes with the things of which we can be sure.
Let me give you an illustration (I got this illustration from Francis Schaeffer and conformed it to fit my own life).
When I was growing up my family moved around A LOT. Once I moved from West Memphis to New Market, Alabama. It’s a place in north Alabama and when I moved there as a kid I hated it. In West Memphis I was a stones throw away from downtown Memphis. I rode my skateboard everywhere I went, but now I lived in New Market, Alabama. I couldn’t even ride my skateboard on my street because it wasn’t even paved. I lived between two mountains and they called the valley “Lick-Skillet-Holla.†I hated that place when I first moved there. Something I noticed about New Market was that there were certain families (the Campbells, etc.) who had lived there for generations. Those people knew the mountains like the back of their hands.
Now imagine you’re hiking those mountains in the winter and you decide to climb a rock wall on the mountain and walk out on it for the view. Further suppose that when you get to the top of the wall and begin to walk out on it a dense fog comes about you, and ice begins to form. The fog is so thick that you can’t see where you are, much less any way down. The temperature is so low that you will certainly freeze if you have to stay there all night. Now suppose that you hear a voice call out to you from beyond the fog saying, “Hey, I see you and I can help you.†The voice continues, “Walk five feet straight forward and jump.†Would you do it?
Surely you would ask some questions first. You might ask, “If you can see me; what am I wearing and what am I doing?†Or you might ask, “Who are you?†You should surely ask, “Why should I jump and how do you know I’ll be safe!â€
If the man answers incorrectly to those questions you may not want to listen to what he says. However, suppose the man says, “My name is Dewayne Campbell I’ve lived on this mountain all my life. I used to sit for hours right where you’re standing.†He describes what you’re wearing and doing perfectly. He then describes the cliff to you and tells you that there is a ledge five feet below you. He tells you that you’ll be safe if you jump because from the ledge he can get to you and help you down the mountain. You should listen to him and trust him because he obviously knows what he is talking about.
This is like the Bible. The Bible is so accurate when it describes the human condition, history, and the cosmos that we can be sure that God knows what He is talking about.
Here’s another illustration:
Imagine you find half of a book. You read it, but of course you only get half of the story. Suppose you find another half of a book sometime later. You take the two pieces and notice that they fit together perfectly. You now can read the entire story.
That’s like the Bible. As an existential observers you can know certain things about the human condition, history, and the cosmos, but you can’t make enough connections to develop a viable metanarrative, But if you bring the Bible along side your existentially observed data with an open mind, you’ll see that they fit together perfectly. You can know get a pretty good understanding of the story.
There are so many reasons to believe the Bible is accurate. I challenge you to seek out the opinion of qualified archeologists and historians. There are plenty of good books on the market. Here’s a website for those of you who would rather watch a video than read: http://www.leestrobel.com/index.html
I gots to go. You guys are great. Thanks for the conversation today.
Peace
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Dear Eric and Gill,
I really do have to go for now, but i will reply to your posts sometime this weekend. I hope you come back to read my verbose posts.
I hope you all have a good night. It is truly refreshing to find individuals who will think about the big questions.
Thanks
‘Till next time…
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Considering that your insolent god does not appricate hubris, I REALLY don’t want to be you standing before YOUR god. FSM will keep us in Noodly Heaven while you suffer the torments of failing to heed your god.
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Heh, I’m not going anywhere…
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To be honest, I am a strong believer in God. However I do not agree with radical followers. As someone rightfully said ,previously on this site, you have to keep faith out of science. Not to say your life but you can’t just rely on the phrase “because he made it so..” When we do we might as well bury science. once more before I close, I am a believer in god and a supporter of this sight because i find they have a valid point. What i’m trying to say is You shouldn’t be sending hate mail like this it holds no value, no arguement, or point. So why fall to name calling and “i’m glad im not you”s. For the site and “believers” of the FSM will not burn in hell. no more or likely they will in end up sitting right next to the big man upstairs.
– The Saul
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I do not need you or anybody else to worry about what may happen to me after my life, because my GOD will certainly good care of it. You may need to worry about your after life if YOUR GOD is a bigot, for sure.
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Nic, you misunderstand atheism completely for somethone that has given such deep though to other things. When we die, that is it. We die. Never to have any sort of consciousness again. So we make the most of what we have here. We love our spouse. We don’t cheat on our spouse. We love our kids. We have fun with our kids. I don’t need any God in order to love my wife or have fun with my kids. I don’t need any God to have morals. I am a good person. I plan on being a good person for the rest of my existence.
please keep your response to 200 words or less (just kidding) :-P
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btw, Nic, read my post on Sep 21st at 10:18 and tell me what you think. I’m interested to know.
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Like mother dear departed grandmother used to say…
There are only two things to worry about. Either you are well or you are sick. If you are well, then there is nothing to worry about. But if you are sick, there are two things to worry about. Either you get well or you will die. If you get well, there is nothing to worry about. If you die, there are only two things to worry about. Either you will go to heaven or hell. If you go to heaven there is nothing to worry about. But if you go to hell, you’ll be so damn busy shaking hands with friends you won’t have time to worry!
pastafari and pass the marinara, ya scurvy dog
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Ok now my children, it’s time to go home and look after this planet I gave you. I must confess it was so long ago I can’t quite remeber myself how I created everything so it doesn’t matter anyway.
Go in peace, be good to yourself…. & each other. xXx
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Nic,
One little thing bothering me:
“Concerning Paul, you wrote, “Anyone who kills based on religion should not be forgiven.†– Good thing you’re not God.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but to me that says that you’re okay with murder based on religion. Isn’t murder one of those things that’s supposed to be intrinsically wrong?
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Hi Nic.
Science has been wrong before. As men of science critisize the devout for their inability to adapt, so should they too learn to adapt and realize that everything they believe is based on observation, and observation is fallible. For all we know, the universe may be eternal. A couple of hundred years of observation is not enough to predict a couple of billion. I believe that science will have progressed to the point that human beings trancend our current 3 dimensional existance long before the death of the universe, if such a thing actually occurs. Therefore, man is eternal. My actions today will have an effect for eternity. However diminished over time. Even without considering my direct affect, what about that of my children. A small part if me will live forever.
As for the moral implications of atheism, human judgement is learnt behaviour. We are taught our morals in childhood, as are we taught our god. What would the world be like if we were taught to be good for the sake of others and god was never even mentioned. No more holy war. Still war, no doubt. Just not for the sake of meaningless belief. Equally poinless. Equally brutal. The mind is different but the actions are the same. People generally stay with the religeon they were taught from birth. Why. Because it agrees with their moral standard, taught to them by the same people. In short. Morals dont come from god. They come from our parents.
As far as the athiest world view goes, it is fluid. Constantly being changed and updated. Whenever he acts it is according to his world view at that moment. According to the bible, only jesus was sin free. Since sin can be described as a deviation between what we do and what we believe, athiests are perfect and the devout are blemished. As far as athiests in general go, you cant pigeon hole them. Athiesm does not define what you are, it defines what you are not. The only real difference between the two sides is the idea of intelligence. Hence the id theory. I say natural, you say divine. I say science, you say god.
One other small observation about the infinite. Dont you think that something has to end for it to have ever existed. I something is forever, it has no value at any one moment. Real value is a measure of rarity.
ps: Please excuse my spelling. My phone does not have predictive text.
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Mr. Mobzilla,
I’ll try 200 words thing…but I’m not making any promises.
I am certain that you, like most atheists, are a very moral person. Here’s what I have been trying to help people see: If there is no God there is no reason to be moral. You can if you want to, but no one has the right to tell you that you must. What I want atheists to admit is that they have no right to impose arbitrary standards on others. Imagine someone kills one of your family members. You do not have any absolute standard by which to measure the killer’s behavior (matter and energy are amoral), and thus you have no right to condemn the killer’s behavior. Can an antelope condemn a lion for eating its cousin?
I am certain that no one can live in a manner that is logically consistent with the presuppositions of an atheistic world-view.
The atheist actually is the ultimate existentialist. They leap! They take a leap of faith everyday. Atheist act as if life has value; however, they have no logical reason to believe that that value actually exists. My very good friend Gill wrote, “They (atheists) act the way they act because that’s what feels right to them.” (Sep 27th, 2006 at 6:16 pm) Here is an interesting thought atheist action on pure emotion and not sound reason. That sounds like what Christians are often accused of doing. Certainly many Christians have a blind faith, but I do not. I cannot see everything, and I do not claim to know it all. However, my conclusions are logically consistent with my presuppositions.
I am going to post a definition of faith. It is probably going to be a bit long (imagine that. However, it should be profitable for any one who is interested in an intellectual definition of faith.
Now about you post on Sep 21st at 10:18: I believe that natural selection is the means by which God has providentially equipped His original creations or “kinds†to survive and adapt in a fallen world – a world, which is now separated from God because of the original sin of mankind. This separation has been observed and is commonly known as the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The universe is now subject to the uniformity of causes in a closed system. The system is not sealed shut, however. It is open to the hand of God, and thankfully God often reaches into our system. With His perfect will and wisdom, God is providentially guiding our system to His desired end.
Evolution contains certain doctrines I cannot accept. Why? I believe God’s testimony about Himself and His work (See my verbose post to Eric V on Sep 27th, 2006 at 6:24 pm.). That said the problem with the church back in the day was bad theology and hermeneutics. Could my theology and hermeneutics be bad? Sure.
Let me end with this. There is one central message in the Bible. Regardless of what many Intelligent Design pushers will tell you, God is not nearly concerned about your understanding of human origins as He is about your understanding of human destinations. The historicity of the Biblical message is sound. Jesus’ fulfillment of messianic prophecies is amazing and very telling. They prove God is there and He came here to redeem you (See my post to Gill on Sep 27th, 2006 at 8:16 am, particularly the section titled Jesus is unique.).
So much for 200 words…
Thanks for the post. Thanks for thinking.
Peace
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Dear Nyx,
Murder is wrong. I do not think we should do it for any reason. The often-misunderstood phrase: “eye for an eye” is not a mandate. It’s actually ensuring that punishment does not exceed the crime, that’s it.
I’m thankful that God forgives murderers. Because I think a killer can sincerely be remorseful. Maybe He should suffer some consequences, but not eternal consequences.
I should probably make sure everyone understands that sin indirectly sends people to hell (For an accurate description of hell see my post to Laurie on Sep 26th, 2006 at 6:06 pm.). Sin separates us from a holy God. The Bible tells us that God doesn’t like to or want to punish anyone, but he has to. His perfect justice and Holiness prevent Him from just overlooking our sin. However, He punished sin when Jesus of Nazareth died on the Cross. If you will allow Jesus to take your punishment, which will satisfy God’s perfect justice and enable you to encounter His holy presence, you can have a relationship with God. In this way sin only indirectly sends people to hell, because it’s actually there refusal of God’s offer to pardon them that sends them to hell.
Good question.
Peace
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Dear Howthehelldidthatparrotgetinhere,
You wrote, “For all we know, the universe may be eternal.” Actually, Edwin Hubble proved that the universe is expanding in the late 1920’s, and since that time virtually all scientist understand that the Universe had a beginning.” However, I guess you did say, “Science has been wrong before.” I agree.
You wrote, “Human judgment is learnt behavior… Morals don’t come from god. They come from our parents.” So is it wrong for someone to murder your family? According to your logic, you have learned that it is, but your learned perspective is merely an illusion.
You wrote, “Sin can be described as a deviation between what we do and what we believe.” I don’t think sin can be defined that way. The Christian definition of sin is: That which is contrary to the Person, Character, and Nature of God. You see God is the standard. He is the great I AM. If holiness was not part of His nature (holiness in this since is an sin-allergy) sin would not exist. God’s standards are not arbitrary. They are rooted in His Character, and it is intrinsically impossible for Him to be anything other than Himself.
Lastly, you wrote, “If something is forever, it has no value at any one moment. Real value is a measure of rarity.” I do not follow your logic, but suffice it to say that the infinite is inqualifiable. That’s why God simply calls Himself “I AM”.
You’re a deep thinker. Thanks for the post.
Peace
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A Biblical definition of faith: Faith is not Blind!
WARNING!!! This is long and “preachy”. However, it’s a worthwhile read for any one who who would like to know why i think faith is logical. If you don’t care what I think, cool.
A Look Into Abraham’s Faith
Nicholas E. Craig
I want to look at a very familiar story in the Bible. But it’s not just a story. It really happened a little over 4,000 years ago. In this story God tests Abraham by telling him to sacrifice Isaac, who is Abraham’s only son. As we read the story you’ll notice that it’s filled with things that are extremely similar to the sacrifice of God’s only Son, Jesus. This story is a foreshadowing of Jesus’ death and resurrection. But this story also teaches us about faith and worship.
What is faith? Many people think that faith is blind. They think is faith is closing your eyes, and just believing something for no reason. But that’s not what the Bible teaches about faith. Let’s read a little bit of the story…
Genesis 22:1-4 “Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off.†(NKJV)
Does that seem weird to anybody? It does to me. God says, “Sacrifice your son.†And Abraham just gets up the next morning packs his human sacrifice kit and sets out to kill his son.
Where does obedience like that come from? Do you think Abraham got any sleep that night? Think about this three-day journey. What do you think was going on in Abraham’s head?
The Holy Spirit tells us in Hebrews 11:19 that Abraham concluded “that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead….†How did Abraham develop that much faith in God?
To answer that Question we need to look at Abraham’s past experience with God:
(1)God had identified Himself to Abraham. God had spoken to Abraham at least five times
(2)God had proven Himself trustworthy. How? Isaac the son that God told Abraham to kill was what you might call a miracle baby. Abraham wanted a son; there’s no doubt he thought about it often. But Abraham’s wife couldn’t have kids, and they were getting old. I mean really old. Abraham had given up hope of having a son, and decided to set up his number one servant to inherit his stuff when he died. But God made a promise to Abraham. Let’s read that promise.
Genesis 15:1, 2 & 4 “…the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.” But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” (NKJV)
God had proven Himself trustworthy. Isaac’s existence was proof.
Illustration: Isaac was a teenager when the story we’re reading took place. There were probably days that Isaac got mad at Abraham and yelled, “I hate you dad!†The he ran to his room and played his harp as loud as he could, just to make Abraham mad. On those days Abraham probably wasn’t thinking, “Boy, God sure is trustworthy. Praise God for Isaac!†But some days He did think that. Maybe on the day Isaac got first place in the Beersheba Donkey Derby. He looked over at Isaac and thought, “Praise God!â€
(1)God revealed Himself to Abraham.
(2)God proved Himself trustworthy.
Maybe you’re thinking, “What’s all this got to do with me?†Well, I tell you these things because God is calling you to trust Him like Abraham did. God is calling you to put your faith in Him. I know what you might be thinking; “God never revealed or proved Himself to me.â€
But He has! That’s what the Bible is. In the Old Testament He was setting it all up. He was saying here’s what I’m going to look like and here’s what I’m going to do. Then He came in the Person of Jesus, and revealed Himself and did what He came to do. Then He put the final touches on proving Himself when He rose from the dead. God has revealed and proven Himself to you and to the world. (See my post to Gill on Sep 27th, 2006 at 8:16 am, particularly the section titled Jesus is unique. This section will detail Jesus’ sciectifically amazing fulfillment of 333 ancient Messianic prophecies).
The Bible doesn’t ask you to believe with your eyes closed. The Bible tells you to check it out. John wrote a Gospel. And in it he wrote about seven miracles that Jesus performed, and then he said this:
John 20:30-31, “… Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (NKJV)
The book of Luke might be the best example. Luke was a doctor who wrote a Gospel to Theophilus. We don’t know who Theoplhilus is but here’s what we do know: Luke interviewed eyewitnesses to the things he wrote about, and Luke gave specific details like names, places, and dates. Why did Luke do that? Luke said he did it so “that you may know the certainty of those things (Luke 1:4).â€
Basically Luke is saying, “Theo, my man, look I know you’ve been hearing that Jesus is God and that he died for your sins and then rose from the dead. Man, listen I’ve checked it out and it’s true. I’ve included all the details the names, places, dates, and all that stuff. Go check it out for yourself if you want.†So when Theophilus got the letter he could have taken it to the places Luke talked about and found the people Luke mentioned and said, “On such and such date did so and so happen?†The people would have been like, “Yea man, you should’ve been here. It was crazy man. Jesus was all healing people and stuff.â€
God has revealed and proven Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ. And God wants you to have faith like Abraham.
I welcome all replies, even the ones that call me names.
Peace
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“atheist action on pure emotion and not sound reason. That sounds like what Christians are often accused of doing. “–here’s the deal. Atheists believe that it makes more sence for there not to be a god. I believe that it makes more sence for there to be a god. Chrisitans such as yourself believe it makes more sence for Jesus to be the son of god. There is nadda wrong with trusting in something you cannot prove if it helps you live a better life. What IS wrong is telling someone else they’re wrong for believing/not believing in something they cannot prove, and Christianity does have that steryotype. On some leval, it takes faith to do ANYTHING–including waking up in the morning….you have faith you will, that you won’t randomly drop dead, right? Athiests don’t not have faith in ANYTHING….they just don’t have faith in god.
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“Could my theology and hermeneutics be bad? Sure.”–wow, my respect for you just like….tripled. Heh, no joke, very rarely will anyone even admit that they MIGHT be wrong.
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“He punished sin when Jesus of Nazareth died on the Cross. If you will allow Jesus to take your punishment, which will satisfy God’s perfect justice and enable you to encounter His holy presence, you can have a relationship with God.”—aaah, you make it sound so easy….let me put it this way. A muslim follower comes up to you and INSISTS that the only way towards heaven is by accepting Islam and Allah. They use the Koran as proof that they are right, quoting passage after passage that says only muslims will make it to heaven. Your responce? Somehow I doubt you’re gonna convert. You’d use logic from your bible to show how YOUR way is the right way, but of course the muslim has his Koran which says otherwise, and around you’ll go until one of you gives up and walks away. My point is that different people accept different things, and mearly saying that ‘bible pasage so and so’ says ’so and so is the right way because so and so said so’ won’t convince ANYONE who doesn’t already accept the bible. Also, not to offend, of course, but….I don’t think I’d like being Christian. It tends to come across so nice and simple…’accept Jesus, he loves you so all you have to do is accept him!’ …..but I CAN’T accept him. It’d be going against everything that makes my life meaningful.
(and yes, non-christians can have meaningful lives, hehe….we may be lost, but we’re having a good time being lost.)
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“According to your logic, you have learned that it is, but your learned perspective is merely an illusion.”—that’s actually a question that philosophers have been asking since the dawn of time. What is real? What is the right way to act? For some, mearly saying ‘because god says so’ doesn’t cut it. Also…I agree with the idea that morals are taught by parents. That’s how, to my mind, Hitler could exist. Obviously his morals were a tad different then ours. (And, who knows, maybe god loves people like him and hates people like you and me. There’s always a chance, though HOPEFULLY it’s a small one.)
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On Abraham– this is what I would have said a year or two ago when I didn’t really believe in anything whatsoever (typical teenaged rebellion, lol): wonderful for him, but prove to me Abraham existed (actually, HAVE they proven his existance? I may be behind the times on that one…), and prove to me he did exactly what the bible says he did, and prove to me why ANYONE would accept the ideas of human sacrafice as not blind faith. Abraham didn’t KNOW god was only testing him, so to have the faith in god that’s required to be willing to kill his son……some see that as inspiring. Others just see it as disgusting and foolish. Last but not least, if he saw something that cemented his proof, super. But some people haven’t and taking what someone ELSE says they saw as your proof for whatever is kinda risky, if you think about it.
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“That’s what the Bible is.”–once again, that only works for those who accept the bible. I’m sure it makes perfect sence for you, but you’re not gonna win anyone over by saying ‘the bible tells me so.’
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……from now on, I’ll always picture biblical people as talking like stoners currently on a rather large high. XD ~your very good friend gill
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Most excellent Gill,
You wrote, “There is nadda wrong with trusting in something you cannot prove if it helps you live a better life.” Well, I think is something wrong with believing without good reason. To me faith = I know this will work, not I hope it works.
You wrote, “A Muslim follower comes up to you and INSISTS that the only way towards heaven is by accepting Islam and Allah. They use the Koran as proof that they are right, quoting passage after passage that says only Muslims will make it to heaven. Your response? ” Well, I would say, “Establish your claim historically: multiple attestations, criterion of embarrassment, hard archeological evidence, etc.” I have studied Islam and debated adherents; I’m still a Christian.
You accuse me of using circular reasoning (i.e. The Bible says the Bible is true so it has to be true that the Bible is true, etc.) However, I have not used one Bible verse in any of my verbose posts to prove the authenticity of the Bible. I have used sound reasoning and logic alone. I have used Bible verses to clarify the Biblical position on certain topics.
You wrote, “…Morals are taught by parents.” Okay, but that means that they are only an illusion. That’s a fact. That needn’t be kicked around by the lovers of knowledge (philosophers). Get your mind around this simple concept: Matter & Energy + Time + Chance = There is no such thing as right or wrong.
Imagine someone comes to your home, steals your stuff, rapes your wife, kills you kids, and on top of all that, they leave your home a complete mess; what right do you have to say their actions were wrong? To what standard will you appeal? Every code of law developed by mankind is arbitrary. That is, if the opinion of the majority changes, so will the law. If there is no God there is no absolute moral standard. What is…is always right. Who are you or who is your government to impose arbitrary standards on anyone? Your atheistic system begins with the impersonal. Matter and energy are amoral. They don’t care about your family. However, you do. I do. Everyone should. Why? Your family is intrinsically valuable.
BUT, according to your atheist presuppositions, the only logical conclusion is that our perceiving them as valuable is an illusion.
Atheism: DENOUNCE IT OR DEAL WITH IT!
Anthropological Argument – An absolute moral standard requires God’s existence.
C.S. Lewis wrote, “Human beings, all over the earth, have this curios idea that they ought to behave in a certain way.â€
Lewis called this “the Law of Human Nature.†All people inherently believe that some things are absolutely wrong and some things are right. Inside of the human psyche are two buckets. In one bucket we put the things, which we consider good, and the things, which we consider bad we place in the other bucket. The question pertinent here is not what goes into these buckets, but rather, where did these buckets come from?
Some will say that these “buckets†have been learned. They will argue that people learn right and wrong, good and bad from their parents, school, and so forth. This would mean that there is really no such thing as evil; and morals are relative to each situation and person. However, if you ask, “Is murdering innocent people wrong?†will anyone respond, “Depends on the situation.� This is an extreme example, but it proves that there is an absolute moral standard. And if there is an absolute moral standard, there has to be a God. Why? Matter and energy are silent; matter and energy do not care if someone is murdered.
Maybe you’re thinking, “We as people establish the absolute moral standard. We as highly evolved beings have learned and taught ourselves that we should do what’s best for the masses and the preservation of life. We as morally conscious beings not only are capable of and have established that standard, but by the wisdom of the majority, we will continue to do so.â€
Sounds good, but lots of innocent people have been murdered for what was deemed best for the masses. In fact, if there is no God, and we, as people want to do what’s best for the masses and the preservation of life, we should kill innocent people. The guy who came up with the phrase “survival of the fittest†was named Herbert Spencer. He once wrote, “The poverty of the incapable…starvation of the idle and those shoulderings aside of the weak by the strong…are the decrees of a large far seeing benevolence.†His ideas, which have their roots in Darwin’s natural selection, eventually played a huge role in the rise of National Socialism in Nazi Germany. Francis Schaeffer has pointed out that to the Nazis some people “were an unwanted burden on society – parasites who consumed more than they gave.†Considering the rising population and the inevitable depletion of our natural resources, wouldn’t it be best for masses and the preservation of life if we kill the elderly, handicap, mentally ill, and anyone one else who isn’t making a strong contribution to the whole?
Obviously, that type of thinking is purely evil. However, it has been thought. People who considered humanity capable of deciding what’s best for humanity have thought it. My reason for mentioning this type of thinking is to illustrate that just because the majority says a thing is good or bad doesn’t make it so. The majority is incapable of inventing the absolute moral standard because our standard will always be relative and arbitrary; it will be anything but absolute. Some will say that humanity is constantly learning, and making improvements in the area of morals. However, this only serves to further substantiate the point: If we are improving, we are getting closer to perfection. Perfection is the absolute moral standard, which proves God’s existence.
“The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard…you are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality.†– C.S. Lewis
Is murdering innocent people wrong? Yes. How do we know that it’s wrong? How do we know that it’s absolutely wrong? We know because there is an absolute moral standard, and if there is an absolute moral standard, God must exist.
God created the world = purpose, meaning, value, aesthetics, etc.
The world happened accidentally = adapt or die
God created the world = be nice to people
The world happened accidentally = do what you want just don’t get caught by the theist who think they have a standard by which to judge your behavior or by the hypocrite atheists who want to impose their self-righteous arbitrary standards on you.
About Abraham, He certainly is a historic reality. You wrote, “Prove to me why ANYONE would accept the ideas of human sacrifice as not blind faith. Abraham didn’t KNOW god was only testing him, so to have the faith in god that’s required to be willing to kill his son…some see that as inspiring. Others just see it as disgusting and foolish.” Maybe Abraham didn’t know he was being tested, but he did know two things: (1) God promised to give Him lots of descendents THROUGH Isaac. (2) God had fulfilled His previous promises. Thus, He concluded that God would keep His promise to give him lots of descendents THROUGH Isaac, even if He had to raise Isaac from the dead. That’s not blind faith that rational reasoning.
Last but not least, you wrote, “…Taking what someone ELSE says they saw as your proof for whatever is kind of risky.” Not if it is historically proven. Are you going to through all of History’s testimony? Further, God wants to prove Himself to you Gill, but not with a silly sign. I challenge you to ask God to reveal Himself to you, and then honestly investigate the claims of Christianity, especially Jesus’ resurrection. In fact, I council you to investigate all the world’s religions and philosophies, but only after sincerely asking God to reveal the truth to you.
I’m not what you meant by the stoner comment, but fire it up I guess.
Peace
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If any one wants me to shut up, admit that the logic of the anthropological argument is sound and undenable. I will then shut my big fat mouth, which I sure most of you have been praying will happen…well, maybe wishing would be a better word choice.
I like everybody.
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